chamonix rockfax grading

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 maxsmith 19 Mar 2017
Hi all, I've been reading the (excellent) rockfax guide to Chamonix ahead of a trip this summer. In the book all rock climbs are given a french sport grade, whether they are bolted or climbed free. The table in the guide gives no comparison to UK trad grades but does include the american 5.1 system.

The hardest pitch on the Traversee des Crochues Traversée des Crochues (PD+ 4a) is given 4a, which corresponds to 5.6/5.7 (HS) in the table. But this seems to contradict Rockfax's trad grade chart https://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/ where 4a is equal to Severe. And logbook comments suggest this pitch is actually Diff/Vdiff.

Can anyone with experience climbing in Chamonix tell me how 4a, 4b and 4c translate to UK trad grades?

thanks

 jon 19 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:

In that particular case it is indeed about diff or v diff. Like a polished Ogwen horror. If I were you, for mountaineering/scrambly type routes such as this, I'd ignore the tech grading and just go with the PD+, it tells you much more. When you then get to more pure rock climbing routes, do the opposite and go with the tech grade as often the adjectival grades are outrageous! As an example, look at the largely bolt protected Aiguilles Rouges' ED1s and try to compare them with the Walker Spur...!
 Offwidth 19 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:
No one seems to care properly about getting lower grades right. A big part of the guidebook market is getting pretty poor treatment.

Well protected 5.6 in the US is typically HS 4b on UK trad. If the route is 5.6X in Joshua Tree the route could be E1 4c.

We desperately need to define some grade standards so people know what to expect and sort out these grading tables.

The point Jon raises about The Walker Spur is even worse at lower grades on big alpine routes given often similar objective dangers and worse grade consistency. Sports grade translations in contrast normally flatter, yet the graded routes in question can be desperate, so just plain graded wrong.

It's not just routes: I will likely be indoor bouldering around V1 later today on colour circuit problems that are supposed to start at V3. Some people are going to get a big shock when they first go outdoors.
Post edited at 13:44
OP maxsmith 19 Mar 2017
In reply to jon:
thanks jon, so broadly speaking would you say 4a = diff/vdiff? or is it not as simple as that..
Post edited at 13:44
 jon 19 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:

Well I suppose it should be as simple as that! But there are so many variables it's hard to pin down. If that sounds like a politician's answer, it's because it is! At best French tech grades for mountaineering/easy trad climbing aren't much more than a vague indication - forget the precision that you're used to. As I said above, just stick with the adjectival bit - if for instance, you're a severe leader, then a PD+ isn't going to have any rock climbing sections that are going to stop you.
1philjones1 19 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:
Hi, my partner and I did the traverse of the Crochues last September. Prior to doing it we weren't sure what to expect for the grading reasons you outline. What I can tell you is that the crux of the route, the initial chimney, felt around moderate/diff. There were two bolts in the chimney as well and, other than using these and the in situ gear for the abseil, we didn't use the rack at all. I would agree that it is probably better to go with the overall Alpine grading.
Post edited at 14:15
 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> No one seems to care properly about getting lower grades right. A big part of the guidebook market is getting pretty poor treatment.Well protected 5.6 in the US is typically HS 4b on UK trad. If the route is 5.6X in Joshua Tree the route could be E1 4c.We desperately need to define some grade standards so people know what to expect and sort out these grading tables.The point Jon raises about The Walker Spur is even worse at lower grades on big alpine routes given often similar objective dangers and worse grade consistency. Sports grade translations in contrast normally flatter, yet the graded routes in question can be desperate, so just plain graded wrong.It's not just routes: I will likely be indoor bouldering around V1 later today on colour circuit problems that are supposed to start at V3. Some people are going to get a big shock when they first go outdoors.

I have been climbing for almost fifty years now and was initially going to post that I still do not understand grades.
On reflection I will alter this, that I only expect grades to be consistent in one area and on one type of climb.
Don't try to compare crack and slab, protection variability or outcrop and mountain routes.

Alpine grades are normally formulated by the locals who have a different perception asnd background of the various factors contributing to the grade of a route, altitude, remoteness, conditions,hardest move, ease of retreat,overall difficulty, objective dangers. They ignore some aspects, have different views on others, all to the confusion of Johnny Englander.

Just treat it as part of the fun of it all.

Top Tip. Do not try to stretch your grade in the mountains. The advice on Cloggy being a place to practice your skills not develop them is applicable here.
A broken ankle is far easier to deal with on Stanage than at 3 or 4000 meters.

Don't be too proud to frig your way out of trouble, an essential alpine skill.
 GridNorth 19 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:

Part of the reason that technical grades are perceived as less important on Alpine routes is because they can usually be frigged or as it use to be called climbed "French style". I'm not trying to be sarcastic although the term was used for many years sarcastically by Brits. On an alpine route speed is often more important than style. Caught in a storm on the North Face of the Eiger is not the time to be getting sensitive about style. To illustrate this I often used to say that anyone who can climb VS can get up any of the major North Faces. Bear in mind this is not a recommendation, it's wise to have something in reserve, but more of an observation based on my experience.

Al
OP maxsmith 19 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:

Thanks all, some good advice here. I'll stick to PD+ until I get a feel for the Alpine grading system.
 jon 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Don't be too proud to frig your way out of trouble, an essential alpine skill.

Don't be too proud to frig your way out of trouble, an essential skill

 Offwidth 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:
Thats a lame excuse for bad grading and poor translations Rick. What Jon points out is alpine grades on safe bolted rock routes are (where frigging is much easier and safer) way too high compared to major mixed or ice routes.

I actually think UK trad works well across all UK routes and where rocktypes are an issue it's some local daftness or a poor example of grading at fault. Stanage is a pretty friendly highly popular climbing venue and its on grit ( a medium that baffles some) yet grades there can be easy compared to many I've experienced on way more serious mountain or seacliff routes... especially obscure ones (and not due to changes or being overgrown). A lot more can be done.

So I guess we can agree that as you go into areas of greater risk and less well travelled places you need to factor in much larger safety margins or accept the additional risk.

Its also ironic when we get to the sharper end where climbers ability to cope with the unexpected improves so do the normal accuracy of the grades. Having routes called V Diffs that are in fact Hard Severe is just stupid. As is saying what is 5.6 (HS and above) is equivalent to VD.
Post edited at 15:02
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 MG 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> Thats a lame excuse for bad grading and poor translations Rick. What Jon points out is alpine grades on safe bolted rock routes are (where frigging is much easier and safer) way too high compared to major mixed or ice routes.

I think that's because alpine grades are force fitted on to bolted routes for which they weren't designed and don't really work. At PD-D level, at least, on mountaineering routes I think modern guides for popular areas are reasonably consistent now. But these grades, certainly at this level, are strongly influenced by many factors other than technical difficulty. Also alpine routes can vary so much with conditions it will never be possible to be that precise.

 Offwidth 19 Mar 2017
In reply to MG:

Really ?...Walker Spur in perfect condition cf those bolted lines. Its just wrong somewhere.
 MG 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

I don't climb at that level but similar comparisons at say D just don't make sense to me. Grade D works when there are many factors influencing the route, on bolted climbs there aren't (normally). It's not that an adjectival grade is wrong, so much as inappropriate. I think this was roughly jons point about which grade to look at.
 GridNorth 19 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:

I've done the Walker and the Frendo, one gets ED the other D. I didn't think the Walker was technically any harder than the Frendo but it' far more remote. The Walker had pitches of HVS the Frendo had pitches of E1 on the Rognon.

Al
 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Offwidth:
Not my dislike BTW.

Not a lame excuse, just trying to state fact.
Its the way it is, I accept it. You, admirably, are trying to produce accurate grades across the spectrum.

The way I see it, we try to produce grades for average/good conditions for the average skill set at various styles and disciplines.
But, by definition, we all all not average.

As I said, all part of the fun. Easier to live with than try to change.

Edit comma added
Post edited at 15:17
 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> Part of the reason that technical grades are perceived as less important on Alpine routes is because they can usually be frigged or as it use to be called climbed "French style". I'm not trying to be sarcastic although the term was used for many years sarcastically by Brits. On an alpine route speed is often more important than style. Caught in a storm on the North Face of the Eiger is not the time to be getting sensitive about style. To illustrate this I often used to say that anyone who can climb VS can get up any of the major North Faces. Bear in mind this is not a recommendation, it's wise to have something in reserve, but more of an observation based on my experience.Al

Al. Would the VS climbing be done with a rucksack on , in crampons, dry tooling, pulling on gear, on loose and verglassed rock?
 GridNorth 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

Sometimes. As you know being able to climb in big boots is a fantastic skill in the Alps. Stopping to change in and out of rock boots and/or crampons just slows you down considerably but I think most people climb in rock boots for most of the Frendo and the Walker these days. Global warming has helped in that regard

Al
 Rob Parsons 19 Mar 2017
In reply to MG:

> I think that's because alpine grades are force fitted on to bolted routes for which they weren't designed and don't really work.

I think that's more or less exactly the case. When Piola published his first guide in 1985, the adjectival grades of his routes were set by comparing the technical rock grades to those of existing routes - so of course the adjectival grades of these pure rock routes really make no sense when compared to those of the classic mixed routes.

The great thing is that it all makes perfect sense - and, in practice, works fine - once you've rubbed your nose in it: in that respect I agree with Rick Graham's comments above.

 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> I've done the Walker and the Frendo, one gets ED the other D. I didn't think the Walker was technically any harder than the Frendo but it' far more remote. The Walker had pitches of HVS the Frendo had pitches of E1 on the Rognon.Al

Ah, the Rognon, I wonder if a VS climber would get up that?

On the Walker did you make the same mistake as me, and climb directly to the fixed rope on the diagonal abseil. One is supposed to do a loop out left.
Feels about E2 5c, made that mistake twice, fortunately the thank god hex 5 was replaced by a bomber friend 1.5, take 2
 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> Sometimes. As you know being able to climb in big boots is a fantastic skill in the Alps. Stopping to change in and out of rock boots and/or crampons just slows you down considerably but I think most people climb in rock boots for most of the Frendo and the Walker these days. Global warming has helped in that regard Al

Quite. Deliberately did the Walker in plastics and (slightly) dropped picks for the full experience as my first alpine route after a long lay off. Missed out on the bad weather, unfortunately
 jon 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

Imagine my surprise then, on the Walker, when Tom Leppert's description of 'a four thousand foot v diff' repeatedly fired into my brain!
 GridNorth 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

Well I never experienced anything that felt like E2 5c that's for sure, nothing harder than HVS 5b as I recall but I pulled on gear.

Al
 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2017
In reply to jon:

That might be old school v diff.
 Rick Graham 19 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> Well I never experienced anything that felt like E2 5c that's for sure, nothing harder than HVS 5b as I recall but I pulled on gear.Al

Off route. HVS 5b seems about right for the little traverse at the top of the Rebuffat Crack.
I am an expert, done it three times
 Misha 19 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:
To be fair most people go round the Rognon. I thought the Walker had a lot more technical climbing on it than the Frendo, including three E1 pitches and a few more at VS and HVS. The Frendo's crux is may be VS and the rest more like V Diff and easier. As you way, the Walker is more serious of course, not least due to the descent and rarely being in perfect nick! I wonder if the Frendo would get TD if it was on the Grandes Jorasses.

Anyway, I agree that the crux technical grade for alpine routes isn't that important. You can usually frig the crux pitches. What's more important is how sustained the route is at a particular level and how serious it is overall - approach, length, descent, objective dangers, ease (or otherwise) of retreat and so on.
 GridNorth 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Misha:

The Rognon on the Frendo is significantly harder than anything else on the route. It was my first Alpine route and I took guidance from the experienced alpinists in the group who got things badly wrong and miscalculated in every way imaginable. Put me off Alpine climbing for two years. Totally not ready for it and not helped by the fact that I took a 400 foot fall down the glacier before starting and in retrospect should not have continued.

Al
 Misha 19 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:
Ouch! Still, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger...
Post edited at 20:17
 kenr 19 Mar 2017

This is not just a problem in conversion of grades between systems.
The French grades for this route on the biggest western-Continent website c2c are
PD 3c
My opinion having done (and enjoyed) the route (solo with no rope for the abseils) is that this lower rating is more accurate.

No way there's any USA / YDS 5.6 moves on this route.

Ken
Post edited at 22:07
 jcw 19 Mar 2017
In reply to Rob Parsons:

" once you've rubbed your nose in it". Totally agree. So much has changed. What is now called Beta derived from careful reading of the mags, all the guide books ( on the loo) and nights spent at the Nash picking up opinions from fellow enthusiasts, but at the end of the day relying on personal judgement based on experience. If you need to ask you shouldn't be doing it. Grading was always an approximation, judging conditions and weather was what mattered. You expected trouble on the Frendo rognon and you got it, because it was far from clear where it went. It never occurred to me to ask what grade it was, a total irrelevance.when exiting what was then the crux of a serious route in big boots. There was no way around it and no way back,whence frequent multiple day ascents by Brits pitching everything. Anything you can escape from by abseiling off fixed gear, however hard, cannot be ranked on the same system. What a good friend of mine who is one of the best British climbers categorized as " Micky Mouse".
 planetmarshall 20 Mar 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Ah, the Rognon, I wonder if a VS climber would get up that?

Yes, although it was in mixed condition when I did it (The 'bypass' being a bit busy), as was a fair chunk of the rock section. I'd say only about Scottish IV, though. I suspect harder variations exist.
 Offwidth 20 Mar 2017
In reply to kenr:

The Rockfax table was the one the OP was concerned with. He said the grade given 4a was equated to 5.6/5.7.
 Simon4 20 Mar 2017
In reply to Misha:

> what doesn't kill you makes you stronger...

How does that theory apply to a stroke Misha?

Mind, the original quote was from the syphilitic hysterical madman, Nietzsche.

 Simon4 20 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:

Just as a personal interest, what is the collective opinion of the Ryan-Lochmatter ridge on the East ridge of the Plan?

(Personally I felt it fell into the category of FD, possibly even FD+).
 jon 20 Mar 2017
In reply to Simon4:
I'd heard it was FL+ or to be more correct, FL sup.
Post edited at 12:33
 GridNorth 20 Mar 2017
In reply to Misha:

> I wonder if the Frendo would get TD if it was on the Grandes Jorasses.

I've always maintained that it would get TD if the Telecabin and summit complex was not there and most definitely if the rognon is included. I've done it twice. First time was a disaster. I fell 400 feet on the glacier approach and disappeared down a crevasse, bivied at the bottom of the route, pitched every pitch and got caught out with another bivi near the top of the snow ridge. Second time I knew what I was doing and did it in the day although I avoided the rognon the second time.

Al
 jon 20 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> First time was a disaster. I fell 400 feet on the glacier approach and disappeared down a crevasse, bivied at the bottom of the route, pitched every pitch and got caught out with another bivi near the top of the snow ridge.

Brilliant! Classic alpinism!

 GridNorth 20 Mar 2017
In reply to jon:

> Brilliant! Classic alpinism!

Classic "British" alpinism My rucksack was so heavy it drew blood on my shoulders.

Al
 Simon4 20 Mar 2017
In reply to jon:

> Brilliant! Classic alpinism!

Classic British Alpinism!
 Simon4 20 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

Great minds!

Ah, the joys of incompetence!

"Experience is the name men give to their mistakes" O Wilde (reputedly).

 El_Dave_H 20 Mar 2017
In reply to maxsmith:

Vaguely on topic; I notice Rockfax recommends two axes for the Midi-Plan traverse, from anyone here who's done it, is that actually necessary or even particulary beneficial?
 GridNorth 20 Mar 2017
In reply to El_Dave_H:

There is a short section when you drop down onto the North side of the ridge when an extra axe would be handy but necessary, no.

Al
 El_Dave_H 20 Mar 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

Thanks. I started it last year with one (bailed on the descent to the Col du Plan due to soft snow) and assumed that was plenty. Hoping for another punt this summer.

cb294 20 Mar 2017
In reply to Simon4:

> Great minds!Ah, the joys of incompetence!"Experience is the name men give to their mistakes" O Wilde (reputedly).

Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement.

Don´ t know who invented that one, but it is very true!

CB
 Simon4 20 Mar 2017
In reply to cb294:
> Don´ t know who invented that one, but it is very true!CB

Presumably the legendary, but little known and never painted or sculpted, philosopher, traveler, inventor, poet, warrior, mathematician and humourist, the great, long-lived and celebrated .....

Anon.
Post edited at 16:53
 GrahamD 20 Mar 2017
In reply to El_Dave_H:

I didn't find two axes very useful on the MP traverse, but I did coming down the Envers glacier if you go that way.
 El_Dave_H 20 Mar 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

Not considering going down but I was wondering about coming up from the Requin in early season.

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