alpine techniques for faster climbing

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 Stone Muppet 10 May 2020

Following a previous recommendation I was reading Bruce goodlad's alpine mountaineering. It's a good introductory manual though unfortunately for me a lot more basic than I was after! This is exemplified in the following paragraph, which follows a discussion of moving together and short pitching:

There are lots of tricks you can use to save time ... [climbing exposed faces as opposed to ridges] but they are beyond the scope of this book.

What are these magical tricks? This is the kind of stuff I want to know!!

 SteveD 10 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Off the top of my head and in no particular order:

Get really slick with your ropework
Climb within your grade (alpine climbs tend to be long)
Get good at identifying and managing risk ( so that you know when to move together and when to pitch)
Get Really Slick with your ropework
Get really happy with your gear and keep it light (watch the forecasts they are pretty good now)
Learn to multitask, don't waste time, learn how to belay in guide mode properly
Get REALLY slick with your ropework
Acclimatise properly 
If you're not keeping to, or improving on guidebook times practice more
and Finally

Get really slick with your ropework

Basically get out as much as you can and practice, The technical aspect Alpine climbing isn't difficult and can be picked up fairly quickly.  Becoming a mountaineer takes a bit longer IMO.

SteveD

Post edited at 23:49
 Misha 10 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Do you mean when you have to keep switching between moving together and doing short pitches? That's always a pain.

Main thing is get good at taking and dropping coils quickly as you'll be doing a lot of that.

Block lead when short pitching as the leader keep most of the gear and is good to go as soon as the second arrives and restacks the rope. Even with longer pitches it often comes down to who's got most of the gear.

Try to judge how much rope you'll need. Leader carries a 'reservoir' of a few coils in case more rope is needed - this can be dropped quickly if need be, including if the pitch is a bit spicy and the leader doesn't want to climb with coils.

Get efficient at bringing up the second, preferably using guide mode off a power point (in situ, sling round a block, 2-3 pieces of gear equalised with a sling or two). That way you can scope up the next pitch and have a drink etc while belaying and it makes changeovers quicker.

If the leader has dropped the reservoir and can see that less rope is needed for the next pitch / moving together section, they may be able to start taking coils while belaying in guide mode but that's a bit tricky considering you always want one hand on the dead rope even with a guide plate. If the second has stopped to do something like fighting to get a piece of gear out (place gear which is easy to remove!), stick an overhand knot in the dead rope and you can then use both hands to do whatever but ask the second to give you a shout when they're read to move off again to avoid excess slack.

As leader, position yourself on the side of the belay where you're going to move off to for the next pitch. Eg moving right, be on the right hand side. Second arrives at the belay, positions on the left hand side so you don't have to climb round them.

Have a free screwgate ready on the powerpoint before the second arrives and clove hitch them onto it using the dead rope from the guide plate and take the guide plate off. Meanwhile the second is already busy restacking the rope. Or the second can use a pre-attached lanyard with a pre-prepared screwgate on the free end and clip to the powerpoint with that. What you don't want is the second faffing around with getting a screwgate, clove hitching themselves on and removing the guide plate.

Basically on stances make sure both climbers are always doing something. If they aren't, that's inefficient. If neither person is doing anything, that's dead time. Same principle applies with abseiling, except that you can save even more time there.

Probably lots of other things I've missed. The real answer is there's no substitute for getting out there and experimenting and/or going with someone more experienced...

 Mark Stevenson 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

> What are these magical tricks? This is the kind of stuff I want to know!!

Unfortunately, as you've found out, a decent book on efficient ropework for mountaineering does not exist.

I keep threatening to write one, but I've lost track of the number of times I've been hold it would be impossible anyway as it's far too complicated... 

One word - transitions. 

It's all about being able to change swiftly and efficiently between different ropework strategies. That's where most novice and intermediate alpinists lose the most time - either they take too long changing or they don't change and keep with a slower strategy even when the terrain changes. As mentioned, taking and dropping coils is a key part of this but more important is getting your head around the different options and then being confident enough to think ahead so you're always using the best one and have a plan for what happens next. 

There's only a limited number of options for going along/up (soloing, carrying the rope, moving together without gear, moving together with gear, short or long pitches, alternate or block leading) and a few options for descending (soloing, lowering, down leading/seconding, abseiling - standard or counterbalance). That gives a moderately large but finite number of possible transitions. In that sense there's no "magical tricks" but just a lot more options than it's easy to explain in a few paragraphs.

Hope that helps.

 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Oh and use one rope if you can (go for a triple rated one, eg Beal Joker 9.1mm). That saves a lot of time by making the ropework simpler and avoiding tangles. It means you'll need to take extenders rather than quickdraws but that's a good idea in the Alps anyway, especially on moderate terrain where there are spikes etc.

If you need a second rope for abseiling, consider taking a very skinny one (eg Beal Gully 7.3mm) and keeping it in the pack until it's needed. An even lighter option is a 5-6mm pull cord (there are a few on the market, all a bit different in what they can be used for) but that's a whole different discussion. Make sure you practice using it somewhere friendly before using it in anger. It's generally going to be slower than using two climbing ropes, so you have to weigh up how much time it's going to save you on the way up compared to the extra time taken on the way down, which will depend on how many abseil you've got to do. The way I see it, pull cord is best for routes where you only need to do a handful of abseils or just to have a back up in case you need to bail so you can do longer abseils.

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OP Stone Muppet 11 May 2020

Hmm ok none of this is that surprising to me (except maybe "use one rope")

Surprised nobody has mentioned placing your ropeman above a hard section so you can keep moving together where otherwise you might have had to short pitch?

I guess another factor is correctly judging the right amount of gear, water, food and bivi kit to take.

Post edited at 08:07
 Rick Graham 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Very surprised nobody has mentioned to get fit and strong. Very fit and with good stamina. Able to keep up a fast  good pace all day, and the next day/night if required.

Having a grade or two in hand helps. As I progressed up the alpine grades , I could easily half guidebook times on lower grade routes. On harder routes it was a different matter

OP Stone Muppet 11 May 2020

Definitely, also using the correct nutrition. Is there a more up to date guide to advanced alpinism than Twight's?

 Mark Haward 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Some other thoughts to add to the mix of excellent suggestions made so far:

- Make sure you have a like minded partner

- Emulate alpine climbing as much as you can before going to the alps

- Practice / practice / practice

- Or better - do it / do it / do it

- Time yourselves and analyse where you might save time; remembering it is slickness and efficiency you are after rather than rushing. Pitch change overs and changing ropework to suit terrain type are usually the most time consuming

- Route finding practice; try those longer more esoteric mountain routes where the route is not so obvious.

- Build up your down climbing / scrambling skills and efficiency

- Hone done your kit and ensure you can access things whilst on the move. ( Eg; route description and diagrams cut out, laminated and in a pocket )

- Try a variety of alpine areas to gain experience, skills and confidence

- Whatever alpine route you are on use the opportunity to learn about other routes and descents in the area

- Watch other alpinists and be prepared to look at the techniques they use with an open mind ( at least to start with )

 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Yeah, ropemen or preferably micro traxions are handy where there are short technical sections followed by easier group. Used them a fair bit this winter. Make sure they’re attached to a multi directional runner rather than a nut. You need a fair bit of judgement as you don’t want your second actually falling off, it’s a ‘just in case’. Also often the ropes are slightly different lengths so make sure it’s on the shorter one - but that goes back to my point about using one rope.

All the other stuff you mentioned - sure but that’s regardless of the type of climbing. To some extent kit is individual so you have to experiment for yourself. My advice is don’t go dead light.

 Misha 11 May 2020
In reply to Mark Haward:

If we’re branching out into wider tips, I’d say having the right partner is critical for bigger routes.

Also not yet mentioned - don’t fight the conditions, only go when conditions are good. 

And get acclimatised. 

Also don’t head out in winter / spring until you get your stuff dialled in summer. Whole different ball game, with a lot more to think about and that’s even before you get into the skiing side of things.

Post edited at 09:58
 gravy 11 May 2020

If you must faff do all your faffing in parallel

 summo 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Most people lose time because of poor admin, not their actual climbing speed. 

Simple quick anchor stances, simple runners, etc. Get fit. 

Rarely stop. If you do pause, that's when you eat, drink, piss, sun cream, swap head torch for sun glasses, ditch layers, take a photo, read the description, re-rack.... all in the same 5 min surge. Then off you go again. Shove what you might need in your pockets. Taking bags off, hanging it up, digging stuff out wastes loads of time. 

In reply to Stone Muppet:

Learn to climb relatively difficult pitches in big boots and avoid stopping to don rock boots.  The same goes for crampons.  Do one or the other and maintain it for as long as is possible and longer.  Step cutting is NOT a lost art.

Similarly with layers of clothing.  In that regard soft shell was a revelation.  Put up with being a bit warm or a bit cold.

Al

Post edited at 11:28
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OP Stone Muppet 11 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Memories of sore fingers after sliding down a polished slab in my Nepal extremes!

1
 profitofdoom 11 May 2020
In reply to Mark Haward:

> - Make sure you have a like minded partner

That one's really important IMO - like minded in what and where you want to climb, and how much stuff you want to achieve. If e.g. you personally just want to just get out in the Alps and do some not-too-hard not-too-committing routes for fun, and you go somewhere like the Alps with an absolute firebrand who wants to do 6 North Faces in the first 10 days, you might both end up very disappointed and frustrated

My further wisdom is - go with someone you know quite well and have climbed with before, e.g. in the UK. A trip to the Alps is not like a weekend at Stanage or in North Wales

1
 gustl 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

not quite what you asked for, but what routes are you training, preparing, learning for?

cb294 11 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Step cutting? Yes, I have done that once or twice, but climbing rocky sections without removing the crampons is much more common (at least for the routes I do).

CB

In reply to Stone Muppet:

I see I've got a "dislike stalker"  I get a dislike even when I'm being helpful and totally none controversial.  It's really sad.  This has become just a mechanism to express anonymous, displeasure without having to give any reasons.  It's cowardly and feeble.

UKC: It serves no useful purpose, it's time you got rid of it or amended the rules for it's use.

Al

7
 Jeff Ingman 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Lots of good advice above, may I add "stay hydrated" especially on long routes. As a sweaty beast this was always a problem for me, and I often carried a short piece of siphon pipe so that I could access water puddles in fissures. Saves stopping and melting snow.

 Harry Jarvis 11 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> I see I've got a "dislike stalker"  I get a dislike even when I'm being helpful and totally none controversial.  It's really sad.  This has become just a mechanism to express anonymous, displeasure without having to give any reasons.  It's cowardly and feeble.

I couldn't agree more. If it helps, you can switch off the Likes and Dislikes option. Go to the User Options menu option in your profile, select the Forums tab and check the 'Hide Like and Dislike voting systems.'

cb294 11 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Wasn't me, but I can imagine how recommending step cutting could look anachronistic enough to "merit" a dislike. Don't overthink the likes/dislikes, but if it really bothers you, switch the feature off.

CB

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OP Stone Muppet 11 May 2020
In reply to gustl:

> not quite what you asked for, but what routes are you training, preparing, learning for?

Examples of the sort of thing I have in mind

Cassin route on the Badile*

Comici on the Cima Grande (if a bit fitter)

Some of the longer rock routes around Cham e.g. traverse of the Aiguilles, something on the Grand Capucin, Aig. de la Republique

Westpillaren on Lofoten

Motorhead in Grimsel

* match and I did the North Ridge years ago, in around 3 hours moving together; alas the abseil back down took 7!

Post edited at 14:44
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Trouble is my ego likes the likes   And at least they are positive and encouraging.  A dislike without any explanation is discouraging and worthless and has far too many negative connotations.

I tend to ignore them but a little bit of me remains curious and sometimes I would welcome the debate.

Al

Post edited at 15:05
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 gravy 11 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I shouldn't worry - as with all these things just it's social engineering to make us come back for more and one of the problems is that we'd all ignore them if we all ignored them and a social engineering system is nowt if we ignore it. So there is a bot to give random likes and dislikes to peek our interest and get the ball rolling.

 jon 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

> Examples of the sort of thing I have in mind

> Cassin route on the Badile*

> Comici on the Cima Grande (if a bit fitter)

> Some of the longer rock routes around Cham e.g. traverse of the Aiguilles, something on the Grand Capucin, Aig. de la Republique

> Westpillaren on Lofoten

> Motorhead in Grimsel

Those are all long rock routes not alpine routes, well apart from the traverse of the Chamonix Aiguilles I suppose. As such most of the alpine moving together techniques aren't relevant. For long rock routes the most important skill is ruthlessly efficient ropework/belaying etc.

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In reply to cb294:

But realistically cutting a few steps is preferable to stopping to put crampons on and take them off again 10 minutes later.  I've seen climbers do it, mostly Brits it has to be said, to cover just 50 metres or so of hard snow or ice. Same with rock shoes. A timely ascent is safer than a clean ascent with alpine routes and therefore IMO preferable. My advice is regarding a timely safe ascent.

Al

In reply to jon:

> Those are all long rock routes not alpine routes,

I always thought of them as alpine routes if for no other reason than the Cassin and the Comici were on the 6 Grande Courses list back in the day and held in very high esteem in both quality and difficulty. It would be interesting to debate if a glacier approach was a minimum requirement to qualify as "Alpine"  Both of those, along with several other routes, qualified me for membership of the Alpine Club regardless but I suspect that the Alpine Clubs definition of Alpine may differ from yours.  You are of course quite correct however 

Al

Post edited at 15:48
 SouthernSteve 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

A rather frivolous answer, but I found an approaching thunderstorm in a summer where there had been multiple fatalities due to lightening did wonders for my aerobic capacity and ability to run whilst roped.

 jon 11 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I mean in terms of how you approach them - approach in the sense of gear, footwear, ropes etc. In that sense they are more on the rock climb end of the spectrum than the alpine end. And as such to be fast and efficient doesn't necessarily require a lot of the techniques that have been suggested.

Post edited at 16:08
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In reply to jon:

Absolutely.  I've seen the routes on the South Face of the Midi treated in exactly the same way by abbing down in rock shoes and climbing back out which makes for an interesting paradox relevant to this debate. Are they alpine routes only if you walk in from the bottom? Many of the newer rock routes from the huts although longer are arguably less serious than a day on Cloggy.

Al

2
cb294 11 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I don't disagree, I just have not used that technique very often.*

In contrast, climbing with crampons for a couple of rock pitches to save time on otherwise snowy/icy routes happens all the time.

Taking my crampons off for the rocky bits would - in my case - therefore constitute a more significant source of faff and delay than putting them on for the odd snowy stretch!

CB

* Admittedly, I also do not feel particularly comfortable on cut steps, which probably means I am one of these crampon wimps...

 Steve Woollard 11 May 2020
In reply to jon:

and having a grade or two in hand so you don't get slowed down on the harder sections

 Dave Cundy 11 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I agree with step cutting, if that saves time.

About 25 years ago, three of us were walking round the top of Mello, past the Badile.  One day, up around 2800m, in cloud, we reached some ice and saw there was a glacier marked on the map.

So we wasted five minutes putting crampons on.  A minute later, a family came waltzing past us in jeans and trainers.  We looked right charlies.  There was no glacier, just a patch of ice which was 50 or 100m long.

As others have said, it's often worth persevering with the wrong kit (or being too hot or too cold) for a short time to avoid the faff of repeated change-overs.

Our day ended memorably in a monster storm, so we bailed down into Mello valley floor, watching lightning flashes below us.

In reply to Stone Muppet:

A few random thoughts...

For rock routes like that doing lots of routes in a day is good practice, at getting slick. 

The Stanage VS challenge is a great day out.

Don’t skimp on rack, modern gear is,  so light, and its much easier to climb quick when you’re not run out. If the route is granite doubling up on cams (and dumping most of the nuts) is worth while. 

Crack gloves make jamming much easier, and also keep your hands warm. 

if the route has an abseil descent twin ropes are less faff than doubles.

If it’s got a walk off a skinny single rope is good for being slick. 

French freeing a move is often more efficient than spending a while puzzling it out. 

Get up really early so you don’t spend all day stuck behind folk. 

If the approach is gonna be done in the dark, it is worth reccing it the night before.

I didn’t rate the Aiguille Traverse, it is also far, far more serious than all the other routes you’ve listed. Plus it’s longer than all of the others put together!

Add the Salbit West Ridge to your list. 

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OP Stone Muppet 11 May 2020

@Tom

Interesting, I have tried crack gloves for a day on Millstone and found it easier climbing without, do you think I should persist?

Why are twin ropes less faff than doubles, just the reduced weight? given if you don't want to do any fancy ropework you can always just alternate clips on doubles...

Appreciate these are mostly rock routes though I might add some more 'alpine' things to the list one day. Aiguille traverse just looks so cool from the valley, is it serious in terms of objective danger or just the extra length?

1
In reply to Stone Muppet:

> @Tom

> Interesting, I have tried crack gloves for a day on Millstone and found it easier climbing without, do you think I should persist?

Yes! I mean the rubber backed Ocun gloves - not Tape gloves. They make a huge difference to how warm your hands stay when it’s chilly. 

> Why are twin ropes less faff than doubles, just the reduced weight? given if you don't want to do any fancy ropework you can always just alternate clips on doubles...

I find them way less faffy because I just treat them like a single. Ie: clip every runner the with both, clove hitch into belays with both. Most thin half ropes are rated as twins as well.

I’d also stick to 50m ropes on these routes, as most routes will have belay stations at 50m intervals. 
 

Another thing: add some elastic leashes to your rock boots, so you can’t drop them. I have twice, it ruins your days.

Also it sounds, from your Badile experience, that you need to get slicker at rapping. 

2
In reply to Stone Muppet:

I thought the Aiguille Traverse was a massive faff, with a never ending amount of rappelling. But I started at the Midi. Perhaps it would be better if you did it in the other direction. 

Another couple of tips.

I really like block leading as you can get in the zone for your block of leads, and chill for you block of seconds. Plus you spend less time standing around. 

Wear a slim watch and always keep an eye on the time.

When practicing, time your belay transitions.

The key to being slick on these things is mileage. Days and days doing lots of pitches. 

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 Mike Nolan 11 May 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

> Don’t skimp on rack, modern gear is,  so light, and its much easier to climb quick when you’re not run out. If the route is granite doubling up on cams (and dumping most of the nuts) is worth while. 

One big advantage of a smaller rack is that it makes changeovers a lot easier and quicker. I'd say it's preferable to have a smaller rack, but most importantly to be good at placing gear and confident moving and running it out on easier ground. 

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 gustl 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

these are all great climbes, try to enjoy them!  
except for the traverse of the aiguilles de chamonix, non of the routes are very long. and in all of these rock routes you can abseil down if you are to slow. so there is a way out.
nevertheless they are all famous routes, so they will very likely be crowded.
tips:
- if possible get familiar to the rock and climbing in the region of your goal route. in the dolomites the rock quality can be poor and you will need more time not wanting to hold on to lose rock. train slab climbing in larger rock climbing shoes for the motorhead or your calfs will explode.
- with the crowds come some extra hazzards like rockfall, waiting times, ... but on the upside the routes are better equiped with fixed gear and easier to find and you might have some interesting people to chat with on the belays
- when ever there is a topo for the descend be extra carefull! if possible check out the descent before. make sure you can find the descend even when it is dark and snowing. 
- all your routes finish above 3000m so you will probably climb them in summer. meaning that there is often a risk of thunder storms. people froze to death in summer not finding the descend fast enough in bad weather on these crowded routes.
- if you do not like the crowds, for what reason ever, climb them countercyclical - meaning when the hut is closed, or the road is closed, or start very early in the dark or very late (when you are fast you can easily do these routes in half a day).

In reply to Mike Nolan:

What I mean is take a rack that allows you to climb confidently, and change things around to suit the rock type/style. 

Remember the pitches on the routes the OP is interested in are likely to be much longer than your average UK trad pitch, probably closer to 50m.

There is also a big disparity in difficulty and style of the routes the OP is interested in. I would take very different racks on the Piz Badile N Face, Motörhead, and Comici. That said this would be a lot less than what I would carry on a route at my limit at Gogarth. 

My main point is skimping on rack on technical terrain isn’t necessarily going to speed you up. 

1
 Mike Nolan 11 May 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Fair point, I didn't see the list of routes and just saw 'Alpine Mountaineering' in the OP. I wouldn't describe the routes listed as Alpine Mountaineering though!  

My point still stands, taking a smaller rack is an excellent way to speed up providing you're comfortable on the terrain and willing to place less gear. I agree that on 'technical' terrain, this isn't necessarily going to speed you up. As you say, that is where changing the rack to suit the route and style comes in.

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 MG 11 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Be aware of wasting time. Many people seem completely oblivious to the amount they faff.

OP Stone Muppet 11 May 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

The ocun gloves were what I tried , to be fair my complaint was being too warm in them so maybe they'd be right at altitude!

 Mark Stevenson 11 May 2020
In reply to Mike Nolan:

> My point still stands, taking a smaller rack is an excellent way to speed up providing you're comfortable on the terrain and willing to place less gear.

Lots of ways to do things... 

Having spoken to mates that recently put up a monster 30-pitch mountaineering route in Morocco I was really intrigued to find that they both just kept hold of half the rack each and swung leads without worrying about changing any gear over for multiple pitches in a row.

Wouldn't have been my initial thought (I'd previously have gone with your option) but I've now come around to the idea as being perhaps even faster on easier ground. 

That said, I did once climb the French Route on Aiguille du Pouce (40+ metre HVS pitches) swinging leads with an aspirant Mountain Guide who had been based in Chamonix for several seasons on the most ridiculously minimalist rack I've ever taken on a technical route. It was 6 quickdraws, 3 cams and 5 medium wires. There was rarely any gear left to handover at the belay on most pitches so it was perfectly judged although with absolutely zero margin for error!

Unfortunately, the local knowledge, experience and confidence needed for that sort judgement is normally beyond most of us. 

 Misha 12 May 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I suspect people might not have liked the reference to step cutting. I've never had to do it as it's more likely to be the other way round these days - if there's a mix of snow and rock, keep the crampons on. However there could certainly be some situations where step cutting could be a good solution.

I'm puzzled by someone disliking my 'use one rope and consider taking a tag line' post. A case of fat finger I suspect. If someone actually thinks it was a bad suggestion, I'd be interested to discuss that. Of course I'm not saying always use one rope - depends on the route.

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 Misha 12 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Your list mostly includes long(ish) rock routes where you will be mostly long pitching, so get slick at the belay changeovers (see my post above) and abseiling back down.

Stuff on the Grand Cap is great for perfecting those kind of techniques on what feels like a bigger route (not actually that big on the Alpine scale) - once you've got things dialled on shorter routes eg on the Midi SF.

On the Cassin, we made good time on the way up. Reccying the start and bivvying at the notch below the NR was a very good idea as it put us in pole position and meant we didn't lose any time looking for the start when it was still dark in the morning (you want to start as dawn breaks or earlier). One 60m rope was fine although a 70m rope would have been better to be able to link some of the pitches and to avoid some downclimbing on the abseils. We took something like a set of nuts and a set and a half of cams but we were very comfortable at the grade (there are a few pitches around HVS and one at E1). There were some easier sections where we moved together with the whole rope out - obviously you have to judge that very carefully on technical ground (until you reach the ridge, none of it is conventional Alpine easy ground; then it's more conventional moving together on the ridge with less rope out).

Comfy all day rock shoes meant we could leave the approach shoes behind. Only took small bags with small belay jackets, water, bit of food and first aid. Descent was fine and we met a few parties who were still coming up. Have to keep your eyes peeled for the huge ring bolts and not head down any enticing gullies off to the side. Using one rope probably saved time even though we had to do more abseils as it avoided getting into tangles on the less steep sections. Getting greedy with the abseils is a recipe for disaster! Eventually we lost the ring bolts but the angle eased off sufficiently for us to down solo (obviously judgement required - it wasn't straightforward ground and very serious), until we found the ring bolts again and did a few final abseils just as the ground steepened at the base. A great day and the only misadventure was my mate dropping his phone, though seem to recall he found the SIM card and a few other bits.

Traverse of the Aiguilles is the outlier on your list in that it's full on Alpine - multi day, need crampons and an axe, very committing as it's hard to escape, lots of ropework changeovers and generally 'big'. I did it on my second attempt fairly early on in my Alpine career - it was my first TD and a big step up from the Frendo. I'd be a lot slicker this time but doubt I'd be able to do it in a day even now. The first time we had to bail after the Cayman on the Envers side after being too slow and getting a rope stuck. The bail was a mini epic in its own right but we managed it (might not even be possible now as the glacier below is probably even more crevassed than it was then). The second time we finished it (without the Grepon and Charmoz) but it still took three days. Big learning curve!

We did it in big boots by the way. I was happy doing that as it's mostly 4/4+ on the technical sections with only a pitch or two of 5 (including an A0 move on one of the crux pitches) and the vast majority of it is easy. If you get happy with climbing those grades in big boots, the extra time taken to climb should be a lot less than the extra time taken to change into and back out of rock shoes (especially as there are never more than 3-4 pitches of technical climbing). I suppose you could do all of it in rock shoes between the Plan and the Nantillons but you'd have to carry your boots then, which will slow you down and tire you out. That's an important decision by the way - boots or rock shoes, plus sometimes you've got the option of taking the boots up with you or abbing back down and walking back up or leaving the boots at the top, abbing down and climbing back out (eg on the Pointes Lachenal rock routes or the Midi SF). In winter it's moutaineering boots or ski boots.

As Tom says, going the other way may be a bit better as there would probably be less abseiling involved but there's a bit more climbing at V/V+ I think.

Post edited at 01:26
 Misha 12 May 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Agree with all that (obviously), the only thing is that if it's more of a rock route (as all of the above are, apart from the Aiguilles Traverse), I'm not a fan of French freeing unless the pitch / move is conventionally French freed (eg the guide book mentions aiding) but that's just a matter of personal pride for my rock climbing self! With proper Alpine routes I'm not too fussy about it but it's rare to have to aid anyway. That move on the Aiguilles Travers is one example, the aid section on the Gervasutti Pillar (another one to add to the list) is another - well I did try to free some of it but freeing all of it was E-more-than-I-could-be-bothered-with-at-altitude-and-with-a-sack. Fuzzy logic really, your approach is far better!

1
 Misha 12 May 2020
In reply to Mike Nolan:

How much rack is personal to some extent as it depends what you're comfortable with. Another reason to get your technical climbing level as high as possible so you have lots of grades in hand and are happy with less rack. That's for technical rock (or mixed) routes. For classic Alpine AD sort of stuff, as you say, you should try to pare it down as much as possible (guide books like the Batoux have suggested gear lists).

If there's a lot of moving together involved, taking 2-4 more extenders (compared to what you would take just for the technical pitches) is a good idea as having to stop too early due to running out of them is going to slow you down.

Extendable cams eg DMM Dragons are great as they help cut down on the number of extenders you need.

Great to have a proper climbing discussion as opposed to Covid related angst!

 HeMa 12 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Navy Seals proverb,

SLOW IS FAST.

Simply but, when you do it, do it with tought and only once making it "perfect". Don't rush and end up re-doing things, 'cause it will be a lot slower down overall.

1
 HeMa 12 May 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

> I’d also stick to 50m ropes on these routes, as most routes will have belay stations at 50m intervals. 

Yes, but also keep in mind that especially on granite cracks, linking or extending pitches can help (so 60m rope or ropes might make sense, perhaps even 70m ones). This depends on the terrain, rack and so on. Naturally the same holds true for cutting it short.

Remember that depending on routes, sometimes the stances make sense (natural ledges or lots of wandering around below -> lots of rope drag) and other times no (splitter crack on slab with no real ledges etc.). So learn to know how much rope you have used and properly check out the topo and also the real terrain (would it be possible to link pitches? or at least extend them).

As with long rock routes, the time penalty often comes from all the belay building, lead switching and so on... less belays you do, less time you waste.

1
In reply to HeMa:

At one point in my long alpine career I decided to start linking pitches and using 60 metre ropes to their full extent.  Then one day, in the Dolomites on a 30 pitch route,  I misjudged the distance to the next belay point.  I thought I could see chains and rings within the scope of my 60 metre twins. I was wrong it was just a rather unique rock formation.  I could not reach the next stance which led to some interesting, time consuming and perhaps dangerous faffing about.  From that day onward I came to appreciate that stances were where they were for good reason in the vast majority of cases and that the amount of time saved by extending pitches was probably minimal and even when it worked could involve having to carry more gear.

Al

OP Stone Muppet 12 May 2020
In reply to Misha:

Thanks for details on the Aiguilles traverse. I haven't actually thought it through in much detail - it's more of a vague aspiration at this point and partly thrown in the list to show I'm not just interested in rock (I did traverse of the Barre a few years back for example). I should learn more about it though - had no idea it would take 3 days without the grepon/charmoz! Is the actual climbing serious in terms of runout, looseness, or crappy snow/ice? or is it mostly commitment?

 C Witter 12 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

I once asked a much more experienced friend how to move faster whilst rock climbing, and he came out with the "official" answer: "you can't speed up your climbing much, so make sure you do everything else faster - putting on your boots, packing your sack, getting to the start of the route, etc."

But, some months later, we were doing a long multipitch rock enchainment and I asked him again how he managed to climb so fast. This time he said: "When I get to a gear placement, I look up and if I can see another placement a few metres on and the climbing is ok, I keep going. I do this a few times. Then place some gear and repeat." He also told me: "Just don't place bad gear."

Perhaps it's a bit too obvious, but I often think of it when trying to speed up on easier rock.

 Misha 13 May 2020
In reply to HeMa:

From my experience, 50 is fine for most routes in summer but obviously check the guide books. As I mentioned above, a single 70 would have been handy for the Cassin but we did it with a 60. That’s an exception though.

More rope = more faff and weight. Running out 60-70m technical pitches is going to be tricky anyway if you’ve only got a set of nuts and a set of cams.

On the popular routes, certainly in Cham, the belays are in situ and sometimes bolted so it’s quicker to use what’s there (obviously check any tat, in situ gear and even bolts). But if you can see the next belay or guess where it is and you have enough gear and rope left, crack on. However I wouldn’t specifically seek to take more rope just in case I can link up pitches.

Another tip - collate as much info as possible. Don’t rely on a single guide book / topo if possible. Camptocamp is a good source but get all the guide books as well, plus random blogs from a google search for the less popular routes.

 Misha 13 May 2020
In reply to Stone Muppet:

Do you mean traverse of the Barre des Ecrins going up the normal route and down the other end of the ridge (or the other way round)? I’ve not done the whole traverse but I’ve descended most of the normal way, at night, after doing the SF. That was child’s play compared to the Aiguilles Traverse.

It’s snow to the Plan with a bit of rock/mixed on the Rognon. Obviously you want good underfoot conditions to travel fast. Crampons off at the Plan and it should be rock from there to the Nantillons. If it’s not, don’t bother but you’d see if it’s snowy from the valley. Though you want some snow for water, so don’t do it in a drought either. The rock is mostly straightforward but some IV/IV+ and couple of pitches of V. Not loose but route finding is tricky, especially on the easy bits. Lots of rope work transitions as the pitches and abseils all come in bunches of 1 to 4, separated by easier ground. Oh and shitloads of abseils, some of them pretty tricky diagonal affairs. Then once past the Blatiere it’s not over yet as the Nantillons was a bastard to descent 10 years ago and it’s probably worse now. Stone fall risk as well. All very committing as once past the Plan there are no easy escapes, in fact very few possible escapes. You can see that from looking at the ridge (and it’s similar on the Envers side) - massive faces where you’d be leaving your whole rack to abseil down unless you’re lucky to find some old pegs, then crevassed glaciers or, worse, hanging glaciers. Proper Alpine!

 HeMa 13 May 2020
In reply to Misha:

You (and Al) are absolutely right, that if you extend the pitches you climb, you better know what you're doing. Bolted anchors and/or not many places to build anchors, or a lot of kinks in the line -> use the intended belays.

Splitter crack(s) on clean face with no logical belays. Just go as far as you can on said rope, thus minimizing the hassle. This has been the case in numerous Norwegian granite routes I've climbed, as well as some not so often climbed alpine stuff in central and southern CH.

There is never a right or wrong answer, it always depends on how you climb and what route and whatnot. But the fact is, that building belays and switch overs are slow, so if you can skip many/some of them you can be faster. But it depends on the route in question... and obviously there's also a bigger change of creating a  rep sopa (cluster fvck of a rope mess) with longer ropes....

BTW. on long rock routes (on granite) I carry more than a set of cams, especially on the smaller sizes they don't add too much weight and are quick to place and clean (some nuts are mainly used in the belays). This also makes it easier to climb longer pitches.

But it all depends. And after all the examples the OP gave were predominantly long rock climbs, albeit some in alpine situations (like Gran Cap, suggestion would be Suisse Route to O Sole Mio, a logical ~6a+ free climb).

OP Stone Muppet 13 May 2020
In reply to Misha:

> Do you mean traverse of the Barre des Ecrins going up the normal route and down the other end of the ridge (or the other way round)? I’ve not done the whole traverse but I’ve descended most of the normal way, at night, after doing the SF. That was child’s play compared to the Aiguilles Traverse.

Up the Barre Noire couloir then along the ridge and down the normal route. But yeah I'd expect it to be childs play in comparison, AD+ (even if long/top end) vs TD


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