UKH

Re climb high, sleep low.

Anyone know how much difference it makes if one is or is not taking exercise when high.

Could one for example just sit in the cafe on the midi on a laptop and get 50 percent of the benefit. Or maybe once an hour run up and down the stairs for 10min.

I'm trying to find a way of working during acclimation due to a shortage of time. 

Thanks 

Hi Dave,

The short answer is I don't know the facts / science behind your question and every person is different but years of anecdotal experience in Alps, Himalayas would suggest:

- Just sitting you would acclimatise some but probably very slowly - my guess is it would be negligible if you are thinking a short time frame of a day or two.

- Consistent aerobic exercise ( think alpine plod, easy scrambling / climbing ) seems to considerably accelerate the process ( coupled with good hydration and eating ).

- For me pushing into anaerobic exercise ( think walking quickly uphill / harder scrambling / more technical or thuggish climbing ) seems to accelerate the process further but needs to be done with caution as too much too soon usually leads to needing lots of recovery time - which usually leads to beer and burger at Poco Loco which helps mentally but not physically.

- A combination of aerobic / anaerobic seems to lead to the swiftest acclimatisation for me and many people I have climbed with. Hence I find Fartlek training beforehand and a similar approach once in the mountains works for me.

So, in conclusion, if you have limited time consider Fartlek training before you go. Once in the Midi or perhaps Torino ( better food and drink! ) yes, get in as much exercise as you can. Probably start by walking up and down and build up the pace of your exercise bursts gently. You may find a pulse meter interesting. I think this will help, but by how much I do not know and obviously is not ideal.

Good luck,

and thanks for the Champagne once again...

Thanks Mark. One more question. Does climb high sleep low, really mean climb a bit higher, sleep a bit lower, rather than return to the valley.

I.e. Does one acclimatise in one's sleep, or is it better to return to the valley each night. 

Thanks 

Pretty sure you acclimatise when asleep too. You certainly get better at sleeping at altitude!

Hi

I tend to do exactly that, sit at the midi to aid acclimatisation as soon as possible on getting to Chamonix , especially on short trips, with for instance a fast walk from the town to the plan, or similar. Together it seems to have some positive effect for me. Twice this year  I have climbed on day two of getting to Chamonix, after the above,  on the granite around the midi and felt okay

obviously as we all know the rate of acclimatisation is subject to several factors 

I personally find that sleeping at altitude makes the biggest difference to acclimatization. Earlier this spring I did day climbs using the midi (Chere couloir,  Cosmiques Arete kind of thing) but slept in Chamonix and felt in no way better acclimatised when I went back up to ~4000m again. After sleeping at the Konkordia hut (2700m ish) for 2 nights a few days later I felt a lot less out of breath going up to 4000m again even though I usually never get any sleep the first night at altitude. But I guess everyone has a different strategy that works for them.

I think the conventional ideal interpretation of "climb high, sleep low" is to progressively climb higher each day and sleep higher each day but a fair bit lower than you have just climbed. If you sleep at your high point you risk feeling rubbish during the night, gettimg poor sleep and then having to descend or stay put next day. Obviously everyone is different though and some may be able to sleep ok at their high point.

I find I do acclimatise better when sleeping relatively high. Eg: In your scenario leaving a tent / bivvy gear at the Midway station, spend the day in the Midi then return for a comfy night sleep at the mid station area where there are lots of great camping spots should work. Nice refuge as an alternative too. However, if feeling rough you may be better returning to the valley.

    No need to return to the valley unless you can't get decent sleep higher up. Obviously also need to define 'a bit higher' and a 'bit lower'. I suspect that most people most of the time would not acclimatise well by, for example, spending the day at the Midi and then attempting to sleep in the Cosmiques as the altitude difference would not be sufficient. However, you may be able to spend the day in the Midi, return to the mid station area for the night , go back to the Midi the next day and then spend a night / day in the Cosmiques. Just monitor yourself carefully for all the usual symptoms.

Usually I try to spend a night or two around 2,700 - and then a night around 3,300 metres before trying to spend significant time above 4,000 metres plus.

Not sure the answer to your question... but do NOT attempt (at great expense) reading/snoozing up the midi to try to acclimatise on a rest day. The second you try to take a sneaky snooze or even look like you made yourself very comfortable in a corner well meaning worried tourists of all types will consider you closing your eyes as certain indication that you are having a medical emergency due to the "extreme altitude" of the Midi and shake you vigorously saying you need to see a doctor and it'll take a lot of persuasion to stop them doing that. So take my word on it, don't waste that expensive telepherique ticket, do something up there even if just a walk down the ridge to the col and back to stretch your legs.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/altitude_and_acclimatisat...

Mark, when you say

Do you recommend returning to valley level for a night between those phases, or can we just move camp higher each night. Thanks 

Either works.  Probably better to stay up if you are feeling fine.  However, other factors like weather and route choice will probably have a bit effect on what you in fact do.  Be flexible.

As MG says, either works. As long as I climb higher and drop down to sleep and it is a comfortable night's sleep I prefer to stay high. 

I spent two days up at Midi.

One day going up Mont Blanc du Tacul.

And One day just sitting in the cafe all day (probably 6 hours, felt like forever) on a rest day.

Slept in the valley both nights.

This was not enough for me to sleep at the Cosmique without feeling pretty nautiouse on day four.

I would want to be sleeping at around 2500m for a couple of nights minimum before sleeping at the Cosmique again.

Thanks everyone for your input