"The Kevin Spacey thing"

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 Blue Straggler 31 Jan 2018

Something I have been pondering for a while now. Has Kevin Spacey somehow become the fall guy for the entire Weinstein / "Me Too" thing?
In the wake of the Weinstein story breaking, Weinstein was the top global headline for at least 6 days running, and the feeling was that it was going to blow open a huge can of worms across Hollywood, given that there was no way that there could be only one sleazy studio executive (or other "person of power" in Hollywood/showbiz) taking advantage of their position.
Then the Spacey allegation and his clumsy statement came out, and now suddenly everyone feels a bit funny at the thought of watching anything (even older stuff) featuring him. Even I am a bit guilty of this.

And yet....Johnny Depp seems to have weathered his spousal abuse conviction fairly well. Mel Gibson's many controversies aren't putting people off. That's just two off the top of my head. Simultaneously, this massive can of worms has NOT blown open, because Kevin Spacey's behaviour seems to have acted like a HUGE distraction from it all.


Has anyone got any deeper thoughts or insights into this? I am genuinely curious about how this has played out.  

Is it as simple as "the first allegation came from someone who was 14 when the alleged incident occurred" and/or is it as simple as it being a bit of latent homophobia?

Post edited at 11:24
 planetmarshall 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> And yet....Johnny Depp seems to have weathered his spousal abuse conviction fairly well. Mel Gibson's many controversies aren't putting people off. That's just two off the top of my head. 

Hollywood definitely exercises a bit of selective amnesia when it comes to this kind of thing, but I treat it like any other art form. Depp, Gibson, Wahlberg, Polanski etc all have skeletons in their closet. But Ted Hughes is still read despite the wife beating. Wagner still gets played despite the anti semitism.

If we only accept art from nice people, the world is lesser for it. It doesn't mean we have to admire them.

 Hooo 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I think there's also a bit of snobbery involved, in that "serious artists" like Polanski can get away with it, but less valued people can't. Just look at Gary Glitter.

 FactorXXX 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hooo:

> Just look at Gary Glitter.

and Jimmy Page.

 

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 Tom Valentine 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hooo:

I don't think the US government think Polanski has "got away with it".

 Hooo 31 Jan 2018
In reply to FactorXXX:

Oh no, tell me it's not true. What did Jimmy Page do?

 Hooo 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Tom Valentine:

It's not that he got away with it, it's that people will watch his films. They won't listen to Glitter, even if they did like him before.

 galpinos 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Yep, they totally got him. He's not made a penny since, having to hide away in isolation for all this time.

 Tom Valentine 31 Jan 2018
In reply to galpinos:

Can't find it in me to blame the US when it's France/Poland and the like who seem to think it's cool to harbour a rapist/paedophile

 The New NickB 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Tom Valentine:

If the US legal system wasn’t so screwed, the Polish and Swiss courts wouldn’t have come to the conclusion they did. The protection he gets from the French courts is the same as any French citizen. None of that  defends his crime.

 galpinos 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I was more pointing out that whatever the US government think, he has got away with it, and people still watch his films and praise his work despite what he did.

 Tom Valentine 31 Jan 2018
In reply to galpinos:

You are dead right there.

I've just been appalled to read the list of Hollywood film directors supporting him.

 FactorXXX 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hooo:

> Oh no, tell me it's not true. What did Jimmy Page do?

He had a dodgy relationship with Lori Maddox.  A groupie that was all of fourteen...

In reply to planetmarshall:

Depp and Wahlberg - straight white Americans whose films often make a lot of money (Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, and Wahlberg is involved with the Transformers franchise). Actually what are the allegations against Wahlberg? I'd not heard them, I thought he was squeaky clean! Is it something from his brief white-boy rapper past in the early 1990s?

Polanski - immigrant, so cast him out and tar his reputation for well over 40 years and yet (say) Warren Beatty who may not have had charges brought against him but who is fairly well known for trying it on (and therefore in many cases SURELY successfully) with any attractive woman regardless of age, well he's been OK. Straight white American involved - at least in the 60s, 70s and 80s - with a string of films both commercially and critically well received. Polanski is an interesting one in that his "victim" even as an adult places no blame on him (AFAIK. Maybe it's changed recently but she used to be very vocally against what happened to him)

Gibson - to all intents and purposes American (maybe an American citizen by now). Straight, white, a few blips but now involved in big franchises like Daddy's Home. 

Spacey - white American male but NOT straight, and not really a box office moneyspinner. Feed him to the lions!

And then you have poor Winona Ryder, still tarnished for the much more minor indiscretion of going temporarily loopy on a prescribed dose of a prescribed medication and doing a bit of shoplifting. More than 15 years ago. Can't get a lead role in a studio film even if the director wants her, because they can't get insurance.. Straight white American but not male (and arguably not really a box-office moneyspinner)

It doesn't seem much different from the first Golden Age of Hollywood (early 1930s to around 1953) with studio fixers ensuring damage limitation for their stars some of whom had the private-life decorum of a thuggish young Premier League footballer.



ooh I was looking for a far more recent article using the examples of Gibson and Ryder, but instead found this charming anecdote. Nice.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/dec/17/winona-ryder-mel-gibson

 Brass Nipples 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Mrs Robinson has an affair with a recent graduate.  Caught on camera.  Nothing done about it.

 

 planetmarshall 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Depp and Wahlberg - straight white Americans whose films often make a lot of money (Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, and Wahlberg is involved with the Transformers franchise). Actually what are the allegations against Wahlberg?

Not allegations, a conviction for assault. He was charged with attempted murder after beating a Vietnamese man unconscious with a club. He's not shown much in the way of remorse, and to be honest in interviews he comes across as a prize arse.

> And then you have poor Winona Ryder, still tarnished for the much more minor indiscretion of going temporarily loopy on a prescribed dose of a prescribed medication and doing a bit of shoplifting. More than 15 years ago. Can't get a lead role in a studio film even if the director wants her, because they can't get insurance.. 

Really? To be honest I haven't heard about this in years. She had prominent roles in the new Star Trek reboot and in Stranger Things. (Disclaimer: I still have a crush on Winona Ryder).

 

Post edited at 14:28
In reply to Hooo:

Gary Glitter is worse than any others mentioned here.

In reply to planetmarshall:

 

> Really? To be honest I haven't heard about this in years. She had prominent roles in the new Star Trek reboot and in Stranger Things. (Disclaimer: I still have a crush on Winona Ryder).

 

Yes, it was an interesting article that I read (and failed to locate in a hurry to link here). It was using only Winona and Mel Gibson to illustrate a wider phenomenon of womens' "indiscretions" lingering far longer than most mens' indiscretions (or whatever word we want to use) but it did go into some detail. 

Winona in Star Trek was an extended cameo, and Stranger Things is of course not a studio feature film (and the article's author, maybe stretching a point, somewhat downplayed her role regardless of how major it might have been, as being a bit of novelty retro casting). The fact remains that Winona through most of her 30s arguably could and should have been in big roles in big films rather than minor roles in The Iceman, Black Swan, The Informers etc. The fact that her appearance in Star Trek cheered up a lot of people, says a lot about her fan base and how much she was missed. Two Oscar nominations in amongst her major respected 1990s output, but pretty much washed up by the age of 34 (admittedly films like Autumn in New York and Lost Souls might have had something to do with this too!)

 

In reply to planetmarshall:

Wow, didn't know that about Wahlberg and, having not known about it, I've not noticed his lack of remorse. I always thought he came across quite well (hence my assumption that he is now "squeaky clean". When was that incident?

There was a lot of talk about Casey Affleck's abuse of women, in the lead up and aftermath to the 2017 Oscars and also around the time of the Weinstein story breaking. It's all gone quiet on him too, in the wake of Spacey bearing the brunt of everything...

 The New NickB 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

No one mentioned Woody Allen yet!

In reply to Blue Straggler:

#MeToo?

I was sexually assaulted when I was 18 by a woman at a party who thought it was funny to stick her hand down my trousers.

I was raped when I was 27 whilst being very drunk, by a woman who had obviously decided that by being a man I must want sex. I awoke to her trying to shove my flacid penis inside of her.

I was sexually assaulted when I was 30 in a nightclub, by a girl who looked no more than 14, who thought it was OK to clamp her mouth to mine when I was dancing with my friends.

These aren't cases of a hand on a knee or being asked out to dinner or even a groped bum in a photo call, these are serious crimes by comparison.

Do you think I'll get any support if I join the movement?

I think I'm more likely to get banged up for molesting the aforementioned 14 year old.

One more observation. All of those women now coming forward after years of silence are complicit in the continued crimes of their abusers on other women.

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 The New NickB 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

Why didn’t you report these things?

Are you complicit?

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 Alyson 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Perhaps we're just reading different sections of the media but I've heard less mention of Spacey than I have about Weinstein (victims still coming forward for the latter). Also Casey Affleck still getting talked about - he just pulled out of presenting the Best Actress Oscar this year - and isn't there something about James Franco now as well? I think the Weinstein thing has opened a floodgate and there will be more to come. Not sure how quickly Hollywood will genuinely change though.

In reply to The New NickB:

In the 80's and 90's? You're having a giraffe! Women were only just being taken seriously then.

Plus, I was a big boy then. (I'm just big in the wrong directions now).

Post edited at 17:14
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 The New NickB 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> In the 80's and 90's? You're having a giraffe!

OK, now think about not you.

 Alyson 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> One more observation. All of those women now coming forward after years of silence are complicit in the continued crimes of their abusers on other women.

Yep, definitely the victims' fault. How dare they?

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In reply to The New NickB:

Oh yeah, I forgot. We're striving for equality. My bad.

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In reply to Alyson:

> Yep, definitely the victims' fault. How dare they?

A massive connection of logic, bravo!

"So, what you're saying is…."

Post edited at 17:19
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 The New NickB 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> Oh yeah, I forgot. We're striving for equality. My bad.

I don’t even know what is supposed to mean, it almost certainky means that you have completely misinterpreted my comment. If you didn’t report the crimes and don’t consider yourself complicit, why do think others that didn’t report the crimes are complicit.

In reply to The New NickB:

I'd have thought it obvious Nick. I'm not sure 2 of them were crimes when they happened and was indeed laughed at the time by my friends. When the one that was definitely a crime happened, I'd have just been laughed at by the police and I very much doubt it would have be taken seriously by anyone.

Edit: And perhaps not even today.

Post edited at 17:41
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In reply to The New NickB:

And for the record, if the perpertrators carried on doing that sort of thing, then yes, I am complicit.

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 FreshSlate 31 Jan 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

> Why didn’t you report these things?

> Are you complicit?

Is that what you say to the victims of Harvey Weinstein? Genuinely interested. 

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 planetmarshall 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> #MeToo?

> ...

> Do you think I'll get any support if I join the movement?

I should think you would, yes. Terry Crews received a great deal of support for his admission of being groped at a party.

You should be commended for your admissions, but I'm not really sure what it is you're getting at. That you want these things to be taken seriously? That they shouldn't be taken seriously? That because you have put them behind you others should do the same with their experiences?

 The New NickB 31 Jan 2018
In reply to FreshSlate:

> Is that what you say to the victims of Harvey Weinstein? Genuinely interested. 

No, I’m exploring the thoughts of someone who is saying that about the victims of Harvey Weinstein.

 aln 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Has Spacey been charged with any of these assaults? 

 planetmarshall 31 Jan 2018
In reply to aln:

Good question. He seems to have admitted the assault on Rapp, but I'm unfamiliar with the US justice system. Maybe that is not sufficient?

In reply to planetmarshall:

I don't even know who Terry Crews is, but I suspect there are many men (wrongly) laughing into the back of their hands about him. A cynical person would say the support he is receiving is to avoid the label of hypocracy.

Perhaps, what I'm saying is that these celebrities should have said something straight away before they made their millions, thereby not only doing the right thing, but also preventing other victims. The kind of behaviour that is being described has not been acceptable for a long time. So why is it all coming out now? Is it jumping on the bandwagon now it's safe to do so? If I were cynical I might even suggest that some of the less scrupulous are doing this for a career boost.

I just feel there is some kind of ethical dissonance to revealing all after the millions are safe in the bank. A harsh critic might say you deserve the epithet "kiss-and-tell whore". I've heard many a woman say "Look at her, I bet she f*cked her way to the top".

Personally, there would be little point in dragging up a rape case from a quarter of a century ago. Who would it benefit? Not me, not her. And I think in some cases, that is my point. Who is it benefitting?

But, at the end of the day, I guess I'm getting bored of hearing, "check your privilege white man". Sorry, could you please show exactly where I can find that?

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 aln 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> I don't even know who Terry Crews is, but I suspect there are many men (wrongly) laughing into the back of their hands about him. A cynical person would say the support he is receiving is to avoid the label of hypocracy.>

If you don't know who he is then why comment? Along with your other posts it seems that you're trying to live up to your handle. 

 planetmarshall 31 Jan 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> Perhaps, what I'm saying is that these celebrities should have said something straight away before they made their millions, thereby not only doing the right thing, but also preventing other victims. 

Even if we assume that celebrities are not due the same sympathy as those who do not live their lives in the public eye, we're not just talking about celebrities - but personal assistants, administrative staff, young (and I mean really young) actors who didn't take their career any further because they found out what it would involve. I for one will not expend one iota of energy criticising someone who has experienced the trauma of a serious sexual assault for not coming forward. That would make me a prize arsehole.

> Personally, there would be little point in dragging up a rape case from a quarter of a century ago. Who would it benefit? Not me, not her. And I think in some cases, that is my point. Who is it benefitting?

That's your call. As above, I'm certainly not going to criticize you for it. As for the whole #metoo thing, I'm not big on social media trends, but if as a result a few people start treating each other like human beings then I'm all for it.

In reply to aln:

> Has Spacey been charged with any of these assaults? 

Good point. I don't know, and I apologise if my OP wrongly implied that he had been. I made an assumption. Sorry if it was wrong

In reply to Hugh Janus:

 

> Perhaps, what I'm saying is that these celebrities should have said something straight away before they made their millions, thereby not only doing the right thing, but also preventing other victims. The kind of behaviour that is being described has not been acceptable for a long time. So why is it all coming out now? Is it jumping on the bandwagon now it's safe to do so? If I were cynical I might even suggest that some of the less scrupulous are doing this for a career boost. Corey Feldman and Rose McGowan said something straight away. Not having made millions, they weren't "celebrities" and were easily ignored. They (perhaps knowingly) HAMPERED their careers.  Were you there then supporting their cause?

To add to this...those that you slate for not having spoken out until after having made their millions, would not have been heard before they'd made their millions (see above re: McGowan and Feldman, neither of whom were particularly "unknown" but who hadn't crossed a certain threshold of stardom...)

 

Post edited at 23:41
In reply to Hugh Janus:

 

> I just feel there is some kind of ethical dissonance to revealing all after the millions are safe in the bank. A harsh critic might say you deserve the epithet "kiss-and-tell whore". I've heard many a woman say "Look at her, I bet she f*cked her way to the top".

To turn that on it's head (and just for clarity - this comment is not against you at all, it's more a tangent), I've often thought "why isn't such-and-such actress a much bigger star, she's good, she has presence, she is young and beautiful and could easily be made a star with good marketing and a lucky choice of roles" and it never happens. The Weinstein case made me think "maybe they were the ones who said 'NO'" If you demand an example, then I give you (without any speculation/allegation, just someone that springs to mind) Mary Elizabeth Winstead. Over a decade in wide-release films, including some big ones (Scott Pilgrim, Die Hard 4.0, The Thing), but now relegated to smaller indie fare. I tipped her for BIG things about 8-9 years ago and got it wrong somehow. 

Maybe also Gemma Arterton who I thought was going to eclipse Keira Knightley back in 2010-11 when she was in Prince of Persia, with a minor "Bond girl" role already behind her, and had two glossy TV series running AT THE SAME TIME on UK television, plus bits of popular whimsy like the Tamara Drewe film etc. Although having a name that didn't exactly roll off the tongue maybe didn't help her.

Post edited at 00:00
In reply to Alyson:

>  I think the Weinstein thing has opened a floodgate

 

my point in the OP was that the floodgate seemed to have been opened for about a week in October, and then closed again.

 Wicamoi 01 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> I'd have thought it obvious Nick. I'm not sure 2 of them were crimes when they happened. When the one that was definitely a crime happened, I'd have just been laughed at by the police and I very much doubt it would have be taken seriously by anyone.

> And perhaps not even today.

As the actress said to the barrister.

In reply to aln:

> If you don't know who he is then why comment? Along with your other posts it seems that you're trying to live up to your handle. 

Is this what you mean?

> I was raped when I was 27 whilst being very drunk, by a woman who had obviously decided that by being a man I must want sex. I awoke to her trying to shove my flacid penis inside of her.

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In reply to planetmarshall:

> Even if we assume that celebrities are not due the same sympathy as those who do not live their lives in the public eye, we're not just talking about celebrities - but personal assistants, administrative staff, young (and I mean really young) actors who didn't take their career any further because they found out what it would involve. I for one will not expend one iota of energy criticising someone who has experienced the trauma of a serious sexual assault for not coming forward. That would make me a prize arsehole.

 

Or even a HughJanus?

 Jon Greengrass 01 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> But, at the end of the day, I guess I'm getting bored of hearing, "check your privilege white man". Sorry, could you please show exactly where I can find that?

Your privilege is not having to suffer disadvantage from racism and sexism.

I suggest you look up the experiences of white men who have been "blacked up" or made up to look "like a woman"

 

1
In reply to Jon Greengrass:

> Your privilege is not having to suffer disadvantage from racism and sexism.

And I suggest that I have experienced both as a white man and plenty more because I happened to look like a hard bastard for some reason (eyebrows?). I would even say because of the length of my hair! FFS.

I'm sick of this "isn't humanity scum" or more specifically "isn't this white male orientated humanity scum" kind of bollocks, because I get automatically tarred / whitewashed with the same brush. You don't solve cancer by giving the patient a different cancer.

 

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 marsbar 01 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

3 examples of sexual harassment there, 2 of them serious.  So yes, you too.  

The point being it’s important to talk about things like this, not hide it so that victims don’t feel ashamed and to dispel myths like “asking for it” 

Its not about complaining about the past, it’s about improving the future.  If I’d asked teenage boys if what happened to you was ok 20 years ago, they would have said it was, and made a big joke of it.  If I asked them now, they’d probably say it wasn’t acceptable and refer me to the video about tea.  

http://metro.co.uk/2015/10/28/this-new-sexual-consent-and-tea-video-from-th...

In case anyone hasn’t seen it.  

Post edited at 12:33
In reply to marsbar:

Thank you marsbar, a considered answer at last. (Somewhat ironically amusing which sex it came from too and I believe there are varied reasons for this).

I still don't believe I would be taken seriously. Do you really think the police would charge this woman for a crime committed 23 years ago? I doubt it, even if I went to them, which I won't, what's the benefit to anyone? Besides, I've had at least one non-illegal crime perpetrated against me by woman that makes this look totally insignificant by comparison.

I truly believe there are those who are jumping on the #MeToo bandwagon and who were, at the time, probably quite willing to part their legs for the promise of fame and fortune. Obviously, I can't make the same claim about "ordinary" women, but feel there will be others that use #MeToo for attention seeking purposes. Not only is it dishonest, but damages men, women and the actual #MeToo philosophy as well. It is also being use for political gain:

youtube.com/watch?v=goOus0a1HvM&

Hardly from Breitbart, is it?

Check out this bunch of misogynistic nutters too:

youtube.com/watch?v=-MuzNouf6Ho&

And I think this maybe the whole point to my recent posts on various threads. I don't need to point of the lunacies of the "Alt-Right", especially on here, they are self-evident. I think what I am trying to do is engage people to get them to think about the lunacies coming from the left. It's not necessarily their causes, it's the way they are going about things with almost total disregard for the full consequences that I find truly disturbing.

4
In reply to marsbar:

Thanks again, I hadn't seen it before. Though it's a bit "sucking eggs" for me, I imagine that it's absolutely brilliant for adolescents / young adults.

1
 Jimbo C 01 Feb 2018
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Quick survey for anyone who wants to answer:

You're ordering drinks at a bar and a man squeezes your arse and then disappears into the crowd. You don't see him when you turn around. Do you either:

a) Feel violated. Report the incident to the staff, and then police.

b) Roll your eyes, pick up your drinks and walk over to your friends.

My point - the mainstream media seem to be answering (a) for everything.

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In reply to Jimbo C:

b

Whether it was a man or a woman makes no difference.

But, to be honest, I don't imagine either sex doing it to me these days.

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 marsbar 01 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

I agree you’d get nowhere reporting it and I don’t think it would achieve anything unless it made you feel better which I doubt.  In a purely technical sense it would be sexual assault and not rape, as the legal definition of rape is quite narrow.  

Ive not got time to watch the videos just now so can’t comment on that.  

 marsbar 01 Feb 2018
In reply to Jimbo C:

Have you had this happen to you?  

I have.  I wasn’t at a bar, I was on the tube.  Every time I went on the tube for quite a while after that I felt sick and upset.  I feel uncomfortable if a strange man stands behind me (difficult to avoid on public transport in London) Feel free to call me a snowflake.  I’m actually a big advocate of getting on with it and not making a fuss but I’m being honest about how it made me feel.  I didn’t report it, I felt it wouldn’t be taken seriously, but since the recent campaign by BTP I would feel differently.  

I wasn’t drunk and I was wearing jeans and a jumper, nothing revealing. Why should I feel that I even have to say this?  

Maybe if I’d reported it I wouldn’t have felt so bad the next time.  

In reply to marsbar:

It's truly a complex issue.

I have absolutely no issues with your plight and that of millions of women (and a fair few men).

My problem is a) that this is just a woman's problem and that any male view would instantly attract the criticism of "mansplaining". b) I couldn't care less about the poor starlets who have made millions coming forward now. They were willing to pay the price at the time, why not now? How about they hand over the millions they have earned since to women's charities? I am far more concerned for those had their careers curtailled because they stood up to these bastards. Where is their justice?

Also, and getting back to the OP, if Spacey is guilty, then in a sense, his crimes are more serious because he had the view that because his victims were men, they'll never get taken seriously.

Post edited at 15:09
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In reply to planetmarshall:

> I should think you would, yes. Terry Crews received a great deal of support for his admission of being groped at a party.

I have just found out who Terry Crews is. Now he may have received a great deal of support, but have you noticed the name of his assaulter?

Adam Venit.

Can you spot the subtle difference in our cases?

By the way, why did you use the word "admission"? That implies guilt on his part.

 

1
 planetmarshall 01 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh Janus:

> I have just found out who Terry Crews is. Now he may have received a great deal of support, but have you noticed the name of his assaulter?

> Adam Venit.

> Can you spot the subtle difference in our cases?

Because it was a man? It's to be hoped that one of the consequences of #metoo is that all accusations of sexual assault should be taken seriously, regardless of the gender of the accuser and the accused, though I'm aware than male victims face a stigma of their own.

> By the way, why did you use the word "admission"? That implies guilt on his part.

That was not my intention. 'Admission' as in speaking out when the expectation is that he might have been reluctant to do so, given his position as a fairly 'traditional' masculine role model.

On the subject of the 'crisis of masculinity', I personally don't see it or experience what you've described, but it would be hypocritical of me to not at least appreciate that some men do feel that way. Are they entitled to do so? I don't know, but we do live in a world where the vast majority of positions of both political and economic power are still occupied by men. So I do take claims of a 'crisis of masculinity' or that men are 'under siege' with a certain pinch of salt, particularly when those claims seem to come from the same quarters as those who deride the #metoo campaign as the purview of SJWs and 'snowflakes'.

 

In reply to planetmarshall:

> On the subject of the 'crisis of masculinity', I personally don't see it or experience what you've described, but it would be hypocritical of me to not at least appreciate that some men do feel that way. Are they entitled to do so? I don't know, but we do live in a world where the vast majority of positions of both political and economic power are still occupied by men. So I do take claims of a 'crisis of masculinity' or that men are 'under siege' with a certain pinch of salt, particularly when those claims seem to come from the same quarters as those who deride the #metoo campaign as the purview of SJWs and 'snowflakes'.

This would be better on the "Peterson" thread. But, to be clear, I have never made that association between #MeToo and snowflake SJWs, though I suspect it's a handy tool for them.

As for the "crisis of masculinity", perhaps you don't feel it  because society has treated you well. It's not black and white.

 

1
In reply to planetmarshall:

As a side thought. Is it possible that #MeToo is a bit of a divisive name? It could be argued that it encourages an entitlement culture where the less scrupulous may jump on the bandwgon to feel included.

I can almost guarantee this has been done, which can only detract from the movements (ultimately) just cause.

3
 aln 02 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh J:

> Is this what you mean?

> > I was raped when I was 27 whilst being very drunk, by a woman who had obviously decided that by being a man I must want sex. I awoke to her trying to shove my flacid penis inside of her.

No that wasn't what I meant. It was the victim blaming you seem to be doing. And also, you're not the only person on here who's been sexually assaulted. 

1
In reply to aln:

You sir, are a moron!

Can you please quote where I said any of the things that you've accuse me of?

If you need that spelt out in the simplest terms to aid your simple mind, where did I say:

a) That a victim is to blame for the crimes committed against them

and

b) That I am the only one on UKC to have been the victim of sexual assault.

If you can't satisfactorily answer those questions, I expect a retraction and an apology.

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 aln 02 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh J:

Thanks for the insults. I'm not talking about a specific post where you said "victims are to blame", it's the general tone of a lot of your posts. Going by many of the replies to you I'm not the only one who thinks that. And I didn't say you claimed to be the only person on here who's been sexually assaulted. 

1
In reply to aln:

If you had any ability in interpreting the nuances of the English language, you would realise that I don't even come close to blaming or even intimating that the crime committed against a victim is their fault. The fact that there are others who don't get it or choose not to for the purposes of virtue signalling is not my problem.

And you did accuse me of thinking I was the only person on UKC to have been sexually assault. Nuances or not, your statement "you're not the only person on here who's been sexually assaulted" can only be logically construed in that way.

Post edited at 11:20
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 aln 02 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh J:

> If you had any ability in interpreting the nuances of the English language, you would realise that I don't even come close to blaming or even intimating that the crime committed against a victim is their fault. The fact that there are others who don't get it or choose not to for the purposes of virtue signalling is not my problem.

> And you did accuse me of thinking I was the only person on UKC to have been sexually assault. Nuances or not, your statement "you're not the only person on here who's been sexually assaulted" can only be logically construed in that way.

This is such a heated topic, I'm going to withdraw from any further discussion. 

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 aln 02 Feb 2018
In reply to Hugh J:

And I apologise if I have upset you. 

In reply to aln:

Thank you. I also apologise for my insults.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Has Kevin Spacey somehow become the fall guy for the entire Weinstein / "Me Too" thing?

 

 

Well that was quite a tangent!

My actual question was simply the first line of the OP.

 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

That's the nature of discussions. As for your question, the answer is no.

In reply to Hugh J:

I understand the nature of discussion, Hugh, thank you. I didn't complain about it going off a tangent. I merely commented on it. There's a big difference between complaining and commenting. 

Back to the OP..... that massive can of worms doesn't REALLY seem to have been blown open. 
Yes the discussions (not this thread discussion, I mean the global discussions about exploitation within showbiz) are ongoing and not forgotten, but 3-4 months on, we're not seeing all these execs and superstars dropping like flies, which is what was predicted in certain circles. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Sorry Blue, my "That's the nature of discussion" was just a throw away comment and was not intended to cause offence.

As you can tell, I'm not in the best of places psychologically this morning and I think it best if I follow aln's example and withdraw from this conversation.

In reply to Hugh J:

OK. Likewise apologies if I looked snarky, the opposite was intended but I know that often sarcasm is assumed. Take it easy. 

 Jimbo C 02 Feb 2018
In reply to marsbar:

> Have you had this happen to you?  

> I have.  I wasn’t at a bar, I was on the tube.  Every time I went on the tube for quite a while after that I felt sick and upset.  I feel uncomfortable if a strange man stands behind me (difficult to avoid on public transport in London) Feel free to call me a snowflake.  I’m actually a big advocate of getting on with it and not making a fuss but I’m being honest about how it made me feel.  I didn’t report it, I felt it wouldn’t be taken seriously, but since the recent campaign by BTP I would feel differently.  

> I wasn’t drunk and I was wearing jeans and a jumper, nothing revealing. Why should I feel that I even have to say this?  

> Maybe if I’d reported it I wouldn’t have felt so bad the next time.  

Yes, it has happened to me. I was in a gay bar so somehow that made it seem lighthearted (I'm straight, but not that it makes any difference). I can understand how it would feel different on the tube as no right minded person goes on the tube to find a partner and people generally go on the tube alone.

Burcu 03 Feb 2018
In reply to aln:

As I heard, Spacey hasn't charged. Just, he was fired from House of Cards. The final season will be featured on TV without him. 


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