League of Gentlemen kidnapped!

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 GerM 11 Jun 2020

Sounds like Netflix have removed The League of Gentlemen from their service.

Not sure how I feel about the rights and wrongs of this, and although there was clearly an example of a blackface character in there I had never before worried about any racist connotations, even given a possibly stronger negative portrayal of travellers in the character of Papa Lazarou.

What I do know is that it is certainly a series I would miss if it disappeared off the face of the earth, and I think whatever the moral connotations of the current situation, it does raise wider issues about the move toward online streaming services for viewing our favourite films and television series.

It feels like maybe if there are films or programmes that we would like to keep watching into the future there is no alternative but to own a copy for ourselves. It seems this is gradually becoming harder to do, but given the possibility it seems a good idea to buy hard copies or download if we want to chose what we watch rather than rely on the streaming services and their current commercial circumstances, be they moral or more to with practical considerations of running the service. It's not just about things that can be taken as going against modern sensibilities, but things that are subject to commercial wrangling, or just less popular stuff that just end up falling through the cracks.

I have ordered a League of Gentlemen box set on hearing about this. Are my concerns justified or am I worrying about things that will work themselves out?

 deepsoup 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

> I had never before worried about any racist connotations, even given a possibly stronger negative portrayal of travellers in the character of Papa Lazarou.

Nor I.  Papa Lazarou is grotesque, but he's supposed to be.  If League of Gentlemen has really been dropped because of this, that would certainly seem to me to be the wrong call.

Little Britain, on the other hand, can just get in the f*cking sea.

Post edited at 14:38
3
 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

To be honest, I'd have thought Babs was far more problematic as a character than Papa Lazarou - she actually does play on some fairly tricky trans issues for laughs.

 DaveHK 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

Hello Dave?

In reply to GerM:

I always took it as the joke *is* Papa lazarou, not that he was funny because he was wearing blackface. Even without the makeup the voice would slay me. 

I think it similair to Leigh Francis and his apology for Bo Selecta and portraying black people, he shows some self awareness in addressing the situation however I felt it a bit misplaced as his portrayal was never used to poke fun at them because they were black, hell, Mel B is portrayed as a northern scally, should all northern scallies get upset by this? Of course not. 

There needs to be a good hard think about what the intention of the program was and how it could affect others rather than just a knee jerk reaction. Those are slippery slopes that lead to a whitewash (in more ways than one) of previous comedy.

Of course where the original intent was to poke fun at BAME stereotypes then those programs should be removed but the record should show they existed and give the reason they were removed for, otherwise we risk not learning lessons from those misgivings and wrongly held beliefs.

Edited for typo.

Post edited at 14:50
 ThunderCat 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

I've never even thought of what papa lazarou was supposed to be until now. You know instinctively that the black and white minstrels were portraying an exaggerated black face... But papa lazarou was something different. Scary as hell in a way that the black and white minstrels weren't.

 Blue Straggler 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

As an aside, this is one of the reasons that I advocate keeping physical media of things you really hold dear. I've seen so many people jettisoning physical media because "it's all on streaming media". 
I am not geeky enough to have followed up in detail but I've vaguely seen a few comments about the Disney+ channel having the power to impose whatever cuts and changes it wants, to all its content. So if it is really important to you to be able to watch Han shoot Greedo FIRST, then hold onto that hardcopy!

A friend on Facebook was earlier today predicting that Nathan Barley would be dropped. 
The Lemming posted on UKC last week referencing Tropic Thunder, I disagreed with what he was actually saying (as it was inaccurate) but it was an interesting point to raise. 

In "thin end of the wedge" Daily-Mail style....WHAT NEXT, BERYL? Maybe we can't watch Spielberg's "Amistad" any more? Or Gone With the Wind? etc. etc. 

OP GerM 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Between the original post and your post I have also ordered a Star Wars DVD with original releases on it as well.

That's enough DVD buying for now.

Summer Heights High also now involved.

Post edited at 15:03
 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

On reflection. Papa Lazarou is fairly obviously a reference to Haitian Voodoo (Papa Legba/Baron Samedi) and on that basis it's a white man in blackface playing a grotesquely simplified version of a long vilified and misunderstood black cultural trope. I find that quite hard to defend.

Post edited at 15:21
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 Blue Straggler 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Probably worth spending one minute reading that article. 

In reply to Lemony:

When I first saw the League of Gentlemen I interpreted it as a white man from the village of Royston Vasey who has decided to dress and act in that way and therefore the joke is laughing at that person/character and their habits rather than the writers having written a character that was supposed to be a grotesque stereotype of Haitian voodoo.

 Offwidth 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Cheeky bugger. It's gone for now from that platform and when it's back it looks like we may need to face explanation, to deal with those too ignorant to see a problem. Will they withdraw and replace all the DVDs for sale??

 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Boris\'s Johnson:

I mean, in the show he has actual voodoo powers*. He communicates with the dead and has lived for hundreds of years...

*admittedly more prevalent in the shitty third series.

 Blue Straggler 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> Cheeky bugger. 

Not really. I was just pointing out that the article is worth reading. Hang on....you thought the comment was about YOU? Oh dear. 

 deepsoup 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Lemony:

> On reflection. Papa Lazarou is fairly obviously a reference to Haitian Voodoo (Papa Legba/Baron Samedi)

According to the League of Gentlemen the character is based on the slightly eccentric Greek landlord of a flat that Steve Pemberton and Reece Sheersmith shared, whose name actually was 'Mr Papalazarou'.
I remember seeing a tv interview some years ago where they talked about this.

I'm sure you're right about the voodoo reference being a thing though - perhaps a happy coincidence for them that the name fit so well.  The famously took a lot of their inspiration from cheesy horror films and the voodoo priest is obviously a (fairly dodgy) trope that inspired the character too.

Is Papa Lazarou hard to defend?  Hm.  I'm not sure now.  Nuanced, innit.

Ah, here we go:

> Despite being one of the more bizarre characters in the series, Papa Lazarou was actually based on a real person, Mr. Papalazarou who was a landlord who owned a flat in which Shearsmith and Steve Pemberton lived. When he called, he would only ever ask for "Steve" (Pemberton), and would refuse to talk to Shearsmith. When calling, he would say "Hello Steve? Is that Steve?"; when Shearsmith informed him that Pemberton was not present he would persist, "O.K., is Steve there?". When Shearsmith said that he was not present but that he could take a message, Mr. Papalazarou would just say "No, I wanna talk to Steve." Both this, and the landlord's other saying, "This is just a saga now", were adapted into Papa Lazarou's character.

> Also, he would say, "I've got a hoover Steve... BeLOOONGING to you...". This also found its way into the series, except 'hoover' became 'pegs' - Papa Lazarou's trade as a cover for his true purpose: collecting wives.

https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/976907

Post edited at 16:12
 abr1966 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

All seems ridiculous knee jerk reactions to me....

Is parody, lampoon, satire no longer accepted....what next...Father Ted as offensive to catholicism?!

2
 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to abr1966:

Father ted punches up against one of the most powerful organisations on the planet. That’s not remotely comparable.

what is it that papa Lazarou is satirising?

4
 Luke90 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

> Between the original post and your post I have also ordered a Star Wars DVD with original releases on it as well.

Have you actually? I thought only the 'enhanced special editions' were ever released on DVD. Complete with questionable upgrades and Han infamously shooting second.

 Luke90 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Lemony:

> Father ted punches up against one of the most powerful organisations on the planet. That’s not remotely comparable.

Good luck with this. I've tried the punching up vs punching down argument on here before. UKC was broadly not a big fan of the distinction.

1
OP GerM 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Luke90:

That's what it said. Maybe it's a knock off or something, see what turns up.

 Offwidth 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Ha!... that's me shown up for assuming you'd never make such a straightforward point.

 plyometrics 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

Anyone any idea if Mrs Brown’s Boys will be canned? Be great to see the back of that; not for any offence I’m sure its lead character causes, just because it’s absolute shite. 

 muppetfilter 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

Yep … Lets remove a few comedy shows with mildly offensive content and get all flappy about them rather than examine the systemic underfunding and ten years of budget cuts to so many services that have directly lead to the disparities in opportunity, education and health.

Operation Gaslight Cummings eye-test birthday drive MKII  is well underway, now chuck in a few videos of black teenagers giving police officers a kicking to appease the gammon and It will be back to normal before you can say "£45,000,000 in  Rupert Soames arse pocket"

4
 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to muppetfilter:

> rather than examine the systemic underfunding and ten years of budget cuts to so many services that have directly lead to the disparities in opportunity, education and health.

To what extent is that in Netflix's power?

1
 Lankyman 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Lemony:

> Father ted punches up against one of the most powerful organisations on the planet. That’s not remotely comparable.

Father Ted is definitely racist youtube.com/watch?v=6zkL91LzCMc&

 muppetfilter 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Lemony:

It of course it isn't in Netflix's power, what it is doing though is masking the debate on the real issues that exist to avoid scrutiny on exactly what the impacted of policy has been and the areas that desperately need change.

1
 Blue Straggler 11 Jun 2020
In reply to muppetfilter:

> It of course it isn't in Netflix's power, what it is doing though is masking the debate

Netflix's actions are masking the debate? 

1
 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Lemony:

For the record I really League of Gentlemen (series 1-2 anyway...), have watched in numerous times and will likely do so again. I'd go further and say that it's probably the most important british TV comedy of its era. I absolutely don't want it banned or dropped from streaming platforms. None of that means that everything in it is unproblematic though. Personally I'd include Papa Lazarou but as I said above I think that Babs is a much clearer example. The realities of being transexual are played for gross out body horror comedy, she's portrayed as a literal freak who's forced to marry a monster. Sure there's the bit about the vet in the middle but the gags about her body have been coming thick and fast all the way through. I found this hilarious when I was a teenager but looking at it now it's aged very badly.

I think declaring it unproblematic just because it's good. Lots of the greatest work becomes problematic with time - Othello, Measure for Measure, Robinson Crusoe, Oliver Twist etc. etc.

 Tom Valentine 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

Funniest part of the entire series.

In reply to GerM:

What with TV series being withdrawn and films cut/dropped, Shakespeare on the point of being vilified, can’t wait for them to start burning the books again.

Funny how we agree with censorship when we support the censors views, but anyone else is wrong. We should always question censorship even if we hate the content.

1
 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

> Shakespeare on the point of being vilified

people have been appraising and reappraising Shakespeare’s depictions of jews and women for well over a century... frankly drama would be infinitely poorer if they hadn’t.

 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

A paid for subscription platform removing it from their service is not the same thing as censorship though is it?

Personally I'm sad to see LOG go as I thought it was brilliant comedy, Papa Lazarou so grotesque a character that it went beyond blackface, in fact I kind of felt it parodied blackface, but if Netflix feel it#s better for it to be withdrawn then fair enough.

3
 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

> Summer Heights High also now involved.

I watched and really enjoyed Summer Heights High and Angry Boys but even back then I felt some of the blackface stuff was going to land him in trouble.  S.Mouse particularly...

In reply to Iamgregp:

Whether it is a steaming service or a government agency, it is a form of censorship; self censorship is arguably worse.

2
In reply to Lemony:

Agreed, but one day they might re-write it or ban it. 

1
 abr1966 11 Jun 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

> What with TV series being withdrawn and films cut/dropped, Shakespeare on the point of being vilified, can’t wait for them to start burning the books again.

Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling in the sincerity of your heart, as to christ....

(Ephesians 6:5-9)

....well this one will have to go for starters...

 deepsoup 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Lemony:

> what is it that papa Lazarou is satirising?

I don't think League of Gentlemen satirises anything really, it's something other than a satire. 

But if Papa Lazarou's appearance is satirising something, perhaps it's the BBC's 'Black & White Minstrel Show' itself, which was hugely successful mainstream 'light entertainment' (much more successful than all those dodgy '70s sitcoms) and continued to be well beyond its sell-by date.  It really should have been axed much sooner than it was. 

As the proprietor of the circus, I don't think he's a voodoo priest/diety so much as that other horror trope the supernatural evil clown.  More Pennywise than Papa Legba.  If there is a 'voodoo' inspiration behind the character though - I wonder if it might be "White Zombie", the 1932 Bela Lugosi film.  None of the main characters in that is black, but Bela Lugosi does play a sort of evil voodoo priest who helps another character to rob a woman of her free will shortly before she's about to marry someone else and make her his wife instead.  Bit of a stretch that, but Mark Gatiss especially is a big movie buff.

Did you see the BBC biographical documentary about Lenny Henry earlier this year?  It was really good.  Quite poignant.  (He was the only black cast member of "The Black & White Minstrel Show" as a very young man.)  Well worth watching in its entirety, but they deal with the Minstrel Show specifically from about 40 minutes in.  It's absolutely mind boggling seeing clips of that show now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000ct0t

I agree with you btw.  Personally, I find Babs a much more problematic character than Papa Lazarou.  The humour there is very much 'punching down'.

 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

I’m not sure if I agree. Censorship is actively suppressing something, that’s not what Netflix are doing, they’re just not offering it anymore.

If I go to the corner shop and they’ve stopped selling cheese and onion crisps you wouldn’t say they’ve been censored would you?

 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> I don't think League of Gentlemen satirises anything really, it's something other than a satire. 

For me the bits that work best are the bits which play on absurd satires of small town life* - Special Stuff, Creme Brulee, the job centre, the mother and daughter etc. but I know what you mean.

> As the proprietor of the circus, I don't think he's a voodoo priest/diety so much as that other horror trope the supernatural evil clown.  More Pennywise than Papa Legba.  If there is a 'voodoo' inspiration behind the character though - I wonder if it might be "White Zombie", the 1932 Bela Lugosi film.  None of the main characters in that is black, but Bela Lugosi does play a sort of evil voodoo priest who helps another character to rob a woman of her free will shortly before she's about to marry someone else and make her his wife instead.  Bit of a stretch that, but Mark Gatiss especially is a big movie buff.

I could go with that and I'm 100% sure Gatiss would know the reference.

I've not seen the Lenny Henry doc but you might have resolved he question of what o watch tonigh. Sounds good.


*I am from a village in rural cumbria though, maybe they just ring true...

 FreshSlate 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> I’m not sure if I agree. Censorship is actively suppressing something, that’s not what Netflix are doing, they’re just not offering it anymore.

> If I go to the corner shop and they’ve stopped selling cheese and onion crisps you wouldn’t say they’ve been censored would you?

That's not a great analogy. Here's a better one, imagine that your corner shop is actually a wordwide chain of cornershops with the largest share of of the cornershop market. You have unlimited copies of a book as you have bought the rights to and a shipment comes in every month. 

Perhaps you even have exclusive rights to this book in some areas so no other cornershops can sell it. 

You could sell these or give them away for free, but instead the shipment is dumped straight into a incinerator to ensure the book is never read. 

There's a difference between not stocking something and taking it down off the shelves and ripping pages out. 

1
 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to FreshSlate:

Netflix don't have exclusive worldwide distribution rights of all media formats of League Of Gentlemen, not do they own or store the series masters, let alone have the ability to delete them, so I'm not sure your analogy is better at all.

2
In reply to Lemony:

They didn't do a third series. Just two brilliant ones

 FactorXXX 11 Jun 2020
In reply to muppetfilter:

> Yep … Lets remove a few comedy shows with mildly offensive content and get all flappy about them rather than examine the systemic underfunding and ten years of budget cuts to so many services that have directly lead to the disparities in opportunity, education and health.

What's ten years of Conservative policy in the UK got to do with someone being killed in the USA?

In reply to Iamgregp:

My point is that when individuals or organisations remove things or fail to speak up because of actions or views of others, that is self censorship. A friend spoke up against the very very small number of people that became violent at the weekend. She has now been attacked as being a racist despite stating she supports the cause but not violence.  As a result she has deleted her social media accounts and says she will not speak out in the future, essentially self censorship. For a Liberal democracy to survive people need to be able to challenge. 

1
 Dave Garnett 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Lemony:

> Father ted punches up against one of the most powerful organisations on the planet. That’s not remotely comparable.

> what is it that papa Lazarou is satirising?

He's alive and well in Cape Town every Tweede Nuwe Jaar.  


 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

I’d agree with everything you said here about self censorship. I just don’t see the parallels between the events with your friend, and Netflix withdrawing LOG from their platform. 
 

There’s no active suppression from Netflix here and so for that reason it can’t be described as censorship.

This is important as when things genuinely are censored (which they will be, all governments undertake some form of censorship) if we have devalued that term and flung it about when it’s not valid people aren’t going to react when censorship really is incorrectly applied.

Basically don’t call wolf.

 FreshSlate 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Netflix don't have exclusive worldwide distribution rights of all media formats of League Of Gentlemen, not do they own or store the series masters, let alone have the ability to delete them, so I'm not sure your analogy is better at all.

Netflix has exclusive streaming rights to a lot of their programming and this differs in various different countries and regions around the world. Comes up all the time when you're trying to watch something in another country. I never said anything about League of Gentlemen.

Even where they don't have any regions where they have exclusive rights to a work, they have a dominant market position. You don't need to burn the masters to be involved in censorship. I don't think too many original copies of works are destroyed at book burning events but I'd still call it an act of censorship if not an entirely successful one. 

Netflix are absolutely massive and they didn't just not buy a license but they actively took it down. Netflix in doesn't operate in China but you can imagine how carefully curated their content would need to be if they did. North Korea hasn't destroyed the master copy of The Interview but are they censoring it? Of course they are!

In reply to Iamgregp:

Why has Netflix removed it? If it due to lack of viewing or end of licensing fine it is not self censorship. However, if it is because they think it may offend or someone objected, then it is a form of self censorship. 

I am not crying wolf, but if that is the way you read it then we can agree to differ.

 wintertree 11 Jun 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> the BBC's 'Black & White Minstrel Show'

Never heard of it until now.  After a quick google all I can really say is what the actual f—-?

In reply to GerM:

According to BBC website, both Boosh and LoG are staying on iPlayer. 

 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to FreshSlate:

> Netflix has exclusive streaming rights to a lot of their programming and this differs in various different countries and regions around the world. Comes up all the time when you're trying to watch something in another country. I never said anything about League of Gentlemen.

Yeah I know how Netflix and the wider world of distribution and streaming rights works, I've worked in Television, specifically Archive Management for over 15 years, including on projects with both The BBC and Netflix.  I'd guess my understanding of licensing and digital  distribution of TV shows is greater than yours.  That's why I know your analogy wasn't better than mine.

And whilst we're at it they don't even have exclusive streaming rights to the case in point - you can stream LOG all sorts of other places such as Daily Motion and iPlayer.  

> Even where they don't have any regions where they have exclusive rights to a work, they have a dominant market position. You don't need to burn the masters to be involved in censorship. I don't think too many original copies of works are destroyed at book burning events but I'd still call it an act of censorship if not an entirely successful one. 

Again, other streaming sources are available.  Or buy a DVD.  They do have a dominant position but not so much to be able to suppress something 

> Netflix are absolutely massive and they didn't just not buy a license but they actively took it down. Netflix in doesn't operate in China but you can imagine how carefully curated their content would need to be if they did. North Korea hasn't destroyed the master copy of The Interview but are they censoring it? Of course they are!

That's because they DO control all the media in North Korea whereas Netflix don't control all of the media anywhere.  Your analogy had reference to the things being dumped in incinerators and having pages ripped out of books, that's the only reason I mentioned deleting masters,.

TLR Censorship involves active supression, Netflix don't have the reach, resources or remit to be able to do this with a BBC produced show.

Post edited at 20:28
1
 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

They've just taken a decision that they don't want to be open to criticism by having it available on their platform as it has Blackface.  Entirely reasonable.  Not that I'd agree of course, but I understand and respect their decision.

Always happy to agree to differ!

1
In reply to Iamgregp:

Fairplay. Have good evening. . 

 FreshSlate 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Yeah I know how Netflix and the wider world of distribution and streaming rights works, I've worked in Television, specifically Archive Management for over 15 years, including on projects with both The BBC and Netflix.  I'd my understanding of licensing and digital  distribution of TV shows is greater than yours.  That's why I know your analogy wasn't better than mine.

Ah that's me told then. 

> And whilst we're at it they don't even have exclusive streaming rights to the case in point - you can stream LOG all sorts of other places such as Daily Motion and iPlayer.  

Again, never mentioned League of Gentlemen, you can call it LOG if you want, it doesn't really change anything. 

> Again, other streaming sources are available.  Or buy a DVD.  They do have a dominant position but not so much to be able to suppress something 

Yeah I don't think you need to have an absolute monopoly or control to censor things.  

> That's because they DO control all the media in North Korea whereas Netflix don't control all of the media anywhere.  Your analogy had reference to the things being dumped in incinerators and having pages ripped out of books, that's the only reason I mentioned deleting masters.

My analogy relates to having a saleable item but deciding to remove it out of circulation rather than just selling it or giving it away. The unlimited quanity of the books should have suggest that no masters were being destroyed.

> TLR Censorship involves active supression, Netflix don't have the reach, resources or remit to be able to do this with a BBC produced show.

You're absolutely right. Netflix has actively suppressed something it already owns because of concerns it might cause offence. What is so difficult to understand about that? The efficacy of that suppression is a different question altogether. 

Post edited at 20:51
 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to HighChilternRidge:

You too!

 Iamgregp 11 Jun 2020
In reply to FreshSlate:

I give up. You don’t seem to get this. I’ve tried to explain what censorship is, how tv streaming right deals work. How I know this. How Netflix aren’t able to suppress media. Why this is important...

Your response? Semantics. That old losing an argument fallback. “I didn’t mention League Of Gentlemen” “call it LOG of you wish”  well that’s what the f*cking thread, my analogy and therefore your reversion of it are about. 

I can’t be bothered anymore. Have a nice night. 

 Tom Valentine 11 Jun 2020
In reply to wintertree:

Staple Saturday night fare. I'm surprised that you're surprised. 

My dad was a big fan. 

 wintertree 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I’m from the Noel’s House Party era.

 Lemony 11 Jun 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> Did you see the BBC biographical documentary about Lenny Henry earlier this year?  It was really good.  Quite poignant.  (He was the only black cast member of "The Black & White Minstrel Show" as a very young man.)  Well worth watching in its entirety, but they deal with the Minstrel Show specifically from about 40 minutes in.  It's absolutely mind boggling seeing clips of that show now.


That was really good. As someone who grew up in the '90s it's actually hard to imagine that world sometimes. Cheers!

 FreshSlate 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> I give up. You don’t seem to get this. I’ve tried to explain what censorship is, how tv streaming right deals work. How I know this. How Netflix aren’t able to suppress media. Why this is important...

Suppression: "the act of preventing something from being seen or expressed or from operating:"

It's self-suppression but it's still suppression, they actively took it down from their service to prevent it from being seen. It doesn't need to need to be absolute, they have VPNs in China, the vast majority of censorship in history hasn't been completely successful.

If google decided to remove all references of Tiananmen Square from their search results sure I could go to Bing or to a library but it doesn't change the fact that google would be suppressing that information.

> Your response? Semantics. That old losing an argument fallback. “I didn’t mention League Of Gentlemen” “call it LOG of you wish”  well that’s what the f*cking thread, my analogy and therefore your reversion of it are about. 

My original point was general. To be honest I couldn't be arsed checking every single region to find out if there is a place in the world where Netflix is the only streaming service with it on but I thought it worth noting the existence of Netflix exclusives. It's that simple and nothing to get into a load of bother about. 

> I can’t be bothered anymore. Have a nice night. 

Night Night.

 Tom Valentine 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I've just read aWashington Post article about "100 white actors playing characters who weren't white" and to reach the magic figure they had to do a fair bit of barrel scraping.

Zorro presents a bit of a problem, I think: Antony Hopkins is cited as being guilty of brownface so I assume that Catherine Zeta Jones is likewise. But where does that put Antonio Banderas as a white European? It might be worth knowing before they erect a statue of him in Malaga.

 Fredt 12 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

Apparently Netflix have now pulled Fahrenheit 451.

 thomasadixon 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

They included Zorro!?  Zorro is Spanish...

 Tom Valentine 12 Jun 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

I think there is some overlap between the practices of brownface and whitewashing but the controversy extends to examples such as Russel Crowe playing Noah.

Putting on an opera such as Aida or Madam Butterfly must present enormous casting problems if you don't want to be accused of giving white people non-white parts . 

 Blue Straggler 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> I've just read aWashington Post article about "100 white actors playing characters who weren't white" and to reach the magic figure they had to do a fair bit of barrel scraping.

I will look this up later. To be honest I am surprised a barrel needed to be scraped. As an exercise I'll see if I can rattle off twenty off the top of my head (Linda Hunt in The Year of Living Dangerously, and Anthony Quinn in Lawrence of Arabia, spring to mind, also Alec Guinness in LoA and A Passage to India, wow 4 without even trying), but a bit later; I'm actually busy with work this morning and expecting a plumber to visit, so a bit distracted.

 Tom Valentine 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I think the barrel is definitely being scraped when Alex Garland is criticised for casting Natalie Portman and Jennifer Jason Leigh in parts in Annihilation which are only made  apparent  as non-white people in the sequel to that novel, the assumption among the critics being that "Of course he knew they were non- white: who on earth only reads one part of a trilogy?"

 Blue Straggler 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Sure, I don't doubt your assessment of barrel-scraping, as I said, I have not read the WP article. I was surprised because the WP is usually pretty good. I would have thought the portrayal of "Indians" in countless Westerns, would have been easy pickings. Chuck Connors as Geronimo?? 

1
 Tom Valentine 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Johnny Depp most recent culprit but he claims American Indian part ancestry so dodges the bullet.

 nufkin 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

>  he claims American Indian part ancestry so dodges the bullet.

How far back is one allowed to go when claiming ancestry?

 marsbar 12 Jun 2020
In reply to nufkin:

Wasn't one drop enough to discriminate?  

 Bacon Butty 12 Jun 2020
In reply to nufkin:

> How far back is one allowed to go when claiming ancestry?


As far back as you can get away with,
I'm a descendant of Jesus, therefore, I can do no wrong

Gone for good 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> According to BBC website, both Boosh and LoG are staying on iPlayer. 

I'm reading this morning that the BBC are pulling the Monty Python episode, the Germans. Apparently the episode contains racial slurs so they have decided to review the language.

So, the League of Gentlemen, Little Britain,  Come fly with me, the Mighty Boosh have all been pulled from the BBC or Netflix and in other news Leigh Francis has issued an emotional apology for having dressed as black celebrities in Bo' Selecta. 

I'm not sure what to think to be honest. 

Post edited at 10:55
 Lemony 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Gone for good:

> I'm reading this morning that the BBC are pulling the Monty Python episode, the Germans. Apparently the episode contains racial slurs so they have decided to review the language.

I think you mean UKTV. The BBC have previously edited out the Nignogs/Wogs conversation when broadcasting it.

I remember even as a kid 20+ years ago that scene struck me as missing the mark.

Edit: I just went away and rewatched it. For me a big part of the problem is the laughter track. The audience isn't laughing at Basil's reactions, they're laughing at the colonel's use of language.

It's tricky because fundamentally I think the episode is about exposing the hypocrisy in Basil concerning his horror at the Colonel but the way he slips into lazy slurs against the Germans after his injury. If you view the setup (the colonel) as  an uncomfortable moment of tension then the overall gag works but I'm not sure that it quite comes off and as such I think editing out some fairly unpleasant use of language doesn't substantially alter the show overall.

Post edited at 11:09
 Andy Hardy 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Johnny Depp most recent culprit but he claims American Indian part ancestry so dodges the bullet.

I'm very tempted to say "I have my reservations about that"

Am I going to burn in a fiery pit for eternity?

 webbo 12 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

Do we need to ban “Goodness Gracious Me” due to its attempts to take the p*ss out of white British folk.

2
 Lemony 12 Jun 2020
In reply to webbo:

Could you perhaps point out some of the examples which you think are remotely comparable, I can't think of any?

 coinneach 12 Jun 2020
In reply to webbo:

Mrs Brown’s Boys has now been taken off the air . . . . . 
 

Because it’s shit !

 webbo 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Lemony:

They are in a restaurant asking for the blandest food they make and I think there episodes where they are trying out do each other in being British. I don’t believe it’s racist but then again I’m not sure what is anymore.

 Dave Garnett 12 Jun 2020
In reply to webbo:

> Do we need to ban “Goodness Gracious Me” due to its attempts to take the p*ss out of white British folk.

I remember when I first watched the sketch about 'going for an English" thinking how brilliantly it captured a very common attitude of not so much racial prejudice as cultural ignorance.  It was the first time I'd seen a stereotype reversed in that way and I was struck by how effective it was.  A classic example of how to make people think by making them laugh.

 Dave Garnett 12 Jun 2020
In reply to webbo:

> I think there episodes where they are trying out do each other in being British. I don’t believe it’s racist but then again I’m not sure what is anymore.

I think that's fair comment, coming from Asian performers.  

Anyway, it's still true.  Look at Priti Patel.

Post edited at 11:46
 Iamgregp 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

*cough* Native American

Gone for good 12 Jun 2020
In reply to coinneach:

> Mrs Brown’s Boys has now been taken off the air . . . . . 

> Because it’s shit !

If only. 

 Tom Valentine 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

"double cough" I think Indian is OK if prefaced by " American".

The American Indian Movement is a prominent organisation for the welfare of natives, formed as"recently" as 1968. The actor Russel Means was a very prominent member. 

Currently watching Redford's The West and there seems to be a variety of usage among the commentators, Redford himself simply using the word "Indian " on at least one occasion.

 deepsoup 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Dave Garnett:

'Going for an English' was probably their most famous sketch, but they did others along similar lines too.  (With some of the same jokes. eg: Indian characters finding common English names completely unpronounceable.)  As you say, not attempting to "take the piss out of white British folk", but satirising a certain kind of prejudice and ignorance. 

But most of their sketches and characters (including the Coopers) simply weren't about white British folk.  An example of what we would now call 'white privilege' I think, that this was almost the first time I saw sketches on TV that weren't about me, or written for me.  And the first time a British Asian person could see something on telly that was.  (Almost.  Meera Syal and Kulvinder Ghir both popped up in The Real McCoy from time to time.)

There's a thought.  If binning Little Britain has left a bit of spare bandwidth on the BBC iplayer, let's have all 6 series of The Real McCoy up on there instead!  I don't think it's available anywhere at the moment.  Maybe it should be on Netflix as well. 

Post edited at 13:08
 Iamgregp 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Ah right you are.  Though I'm not sure there's one term that everybody feels is correct.

I go with Native American as I had a friend who is part Cherokee so I use the same terms he does, but then it seems there's quite a range of terms.

To be fair he was only a small part Cherokee, like many Americans he also had a mix of European ancestry so perhaps he's not the authority on terminology!

 Tom Valentine 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

Some sources have quotes from natives that rhey don't like any generic term but would rather simply be known by their tribe. This presents difficulties when talking in more general terms.

 Flinticus 12 Jun 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> I agree with you btw.  Personally, I find Babs a much more problematic character than Papa Lazarou.  The humour there is very much 'punching down'.

I never thought Papa Lazarou was blackface, just a parody of fairground folk. Given the bizarre-ness of LOG, I took the face paint to be a painted-on balaclava, which would be consistent with the weird world of Royston Vasey and of a sinister character stealing people's wives. Maybe I saw a balaclava as, being Irish, there's a cultural association, e.g.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/11267364/james-mcclean-balaclava-in...

Post edited at 16:37
 Iamgregp 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Yeah absolutely, best is to be refer to them by the separate nations, but difficult...

Post edited at 19:17
Gone for good 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Gone for good:

John Cleese isn't very impressed. Can't say I blame him. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53020335

 Iamgregp 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Gone for good:

Surely all the more reason to do it? 

1
 deepsoup 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

Ha.  My thoughts exactly.

1
 FactorXXX 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Surely all the more reason to do it? 

Why?


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