Beef or Veg? Dave Macleod's McDonalds experiment.

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 jiminy483 23 Mar 2023

youtube.com/watch?v=Ey93GV-oKQY&

Should I give up the veg and carbs? I'm not sure I could manage a meat only diet without ketchup.

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 DizzyVizion 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Very unconventional. But the improvement in his strength was remarkable!

1
OP jiminy483 23 Mar 2023
In reply to DizzyVizion:

> Very unconventional. But the improvement in his strength was remarkable!

Yeah it was crazy, couldn't believe it. I've never entertained trying this diet until I saw that bit.

1
 DizzyVizion 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

He said he did something very similar before with steaks.

Which cured his eczema!

OP jiminy483 23 Mar 2023
In reply to DizzyVizion:

> He said he did something very similar before with steaks.

> Which cured his eczema!

Might cure my chocolism problems...

 DizzyVizion 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Maybe it's because the steaks were cured?

...I'll get my coat

 graeme jackson 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Similar diet options are given in one or two of my 'fighting type 2 diabetes' books. Not sure i could bring myself to eat at mcdonalds though.

In reply to DizzyVizion:

I haven't watched the video because an hour and a half of someone eating big macs isn't my idea of fun, but could the strength gain be down to the amount of protein he was eating? My point being that there are probably healthier ways of getting it? 

Post edited at 14:43
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 aln 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Can you sum it up please? I lasted 20 mins. I can't watch over an hour of a guy sitting in his car talking. 

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 montyjohn 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

I can't believe his health improvements and additional strength where because he ate meat and only meat.

More likely there's an ingredient in his usual diet that he has mild intolerance to that is a cause of inflammation and his eczema. Eczema is quite often triggered by diet and then exacerbated by things like dust etc once it's been triggered. Inflammation will reduce energy levels and make you weaker.

His burger only diet was likely just a really robust elimination diet. I naturally can't prove this, but it's a strong suspicion.

I believe a varied diet is the best option provided you don't have any unknown intolerances.

EDIT

I'm going to grab some biscuits 

Post edited at 14:52
7
 DizzyVizion 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> could the strength gain be down to the amount of protein he was eating? My point being that there are probably healthier ways of getting it? 

You could be right.

I'm sure he lost 3.5kg in weight over the course too, so fat loss and muscle gain?

Flatulence would have been an issue no doubt

Dave MacLeod, the Methane Man

11
OP jiminy483 23 Mar 2023
In reply to aln:

> Can you sum it up please? I lasted 20 mins. I can't watch over an hour of a guy sitting in his car talking. 

Dave eats only Mcdonalds burger patties and drinks only milky tea for 8 weeks. Dave surpasses his previous strength test by some margin. Dave continues to poop healthily (this is the bit I don't get). 

 dread-i 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

I'm sure all those bovine growth hormones will make him moove better. Which, in turn, will drive thru into his climbing. Its these nuggets of information, that I take away from the piece. I expect there will be a flurry of activity, from other climbers.

 Iamgregp 23 Mar 2023
In reply to DizzyVizion:

> Which cured his eczema!

No it didn’t. His eczema got better whilst he was running the test. It may have been due to his diet, it may have been another factor. There’s no control group, and given that eczema is a periodic complaint (I have it) it gets better and worse, if it was bad when he started the experiment, it follows it would get better during it.

This is very, very bad science, and how Chinese herbalists, homeopaths, snake oil salesman and all sorts of other medically unproven practitioners have made their living for all of time.

39
 elliot.baker 23 Mar 2023
In reply to dread-i:

Absolute gold

2
 Dave MacLeod 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

> No it didn’t. His eczema got better whilst he was running the test. It may have been due to his diet, it may have been another factor. There’s no control group, and given that eczema is a periodic complaint (I have it) it gets better and worse, if it was bad when he started the experiment, it follows it would get better during it.

> This is very, very bad science, and how Chinese herbalists, homeopaths, snake oil salesman and all sorts of other medically unproven practitioners have made their living for all of time.

It is not bad science because it is not science at all, as I specifically say in the video. I admire your confidence in dismissing the intervention (sarcasm in case not obvious). 40 years of continuous eczema gone in two days of the intervention, reappeared on cessation of the intervention, gone on resumption of the intervention several times over. I don't think your certainty is justified.

8
 aln 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Thanks!

 mountainbagger 23 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

> Inflammation will reduce energy levels and make you weaker.

I'm really interested in this. I'm an eczema (and now bloody hay fever!) sufferer and had assumed that although it leaves me feeling rubbish, that it wouldn't be affecting my performance (in my case running) in real terms.

In some ways, I'm pleased to have an excuse for feeling weak and tired! Is there any evidence or articles you're aware of about this? I'm wondering whether instead of being stoic, I should be taking the antihistamines and slapping on the steroid cream (or just eating beef)!

 plyometrics 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Out of curiosity, what do you think that correlates to? Is it the eating only meat, or the elimination of something else in your regular diet, that causes the eczema to subside?

 FactorXXX 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

> Dave eats only Mcdonalds burger patties and drinks only milky tea for 8 weeks. 

That's an absolutely disgusting diet.
Milky tea for 8 weeks?
No thanks...

1
 Iamgregp 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

I haven't watched your video so my criticism was directed at DizzyVision's post rather than your video.  I've read and watched your work before and know that you're actually rather good at science.

I had no knowledge of the history of your eczema, how long you've had it how many times you've successfully replicated the experiment.  I made no comment about any of that, I was responding to a post to someone else, not to your interventions.  

What I would say is that your additional info in your reply to me (40 years of continuous eczema gone in two days of the intervention, reappeared on cessation of the intervention, gone on resumption of the intervention several times over) does lend weight to the view that the experiment does alleviate the symptom of your eczema (note how I don't use the word cured, like the post I was responding to) 

With regards to the certainty in my post - I quite specifically stated in the post that "it may have been due to his diet" I quite specifically ruled nothing out.  It was the post I was responding to "it cured his eczema" that made certainties.

The only point I was trying to make was that if someone does something once, and the symptoms of a long term condition, which often gets better and worse, get better during that intervention that doesn't mean the intervention is the cause.  Surely not too controversial a position?! 

It does seem that switching to only eating steak does alleviate your eczema and, given that I'm a sufferer myself, I wish you all the best in finding a long term and sustainable solution!

Not much use to me unfortunately - I don't eat meat!

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OP jiminy483 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Big fan of the youtube channel, those little drones are taking climbing videos to another level. Would love to see some drone footage of hard winter routes, if you get a chance

1
 DizzyVizion 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

> No it didn’t. His eczema got better whilst he was running the test. It may have been due to his diet, it may have been another factor. There’s no control group, and given that eczema is a periodic complaint (I have it) it gets better and worse, if it was bad when he started the experiment, it follows it would get better during it.

> This is very, very bad science, and how Chinese herbalists, homeopaths, snake oil salesman and all sorts of other medically unproven practitioners have made their living for all of time.

For his case specifically, it wouldn't be entirely inaccurate to say he found a cure for his eczema. 

I hope you see the sense in that.

Post edited at 17:09
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 bouldery bits 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Would a coffee and cow diet turn me into an 8a+ monster? 

It's an interesting thing to try. I wonder the impact would be on someone with a different dietary/ performance history? 

 PaulJepson 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

I'm looking forward to the follow-up videos where you eat nothing but the bread bun for a month etc. 

The month of gherkin slices will be exceptional television.   

 DizzyVizion 23 Mar 2023
In reply to bouldery bits:

> Would a coffee and cow diet turn me into an 8a+ monster? 

It would turn me into a whoopee cushion

 Iamgregp 23 Mar 2023
In reply to DizzyVizion:

Yeah, I guess I can be on board with that, and given that we now know that he's repeated the test several times over and each time found the same result it does seem like the link between his diet and his eczema has been proven.

Symptoms alleviated rather than cured though, if it comes back as soon as he starts eating a balanced diet again then it's not a cure.

4
 montyjohn 23 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

> In some ways, I'm pleased to have an excuse for feeling weak and tired! Is there any evidence or articles you're aware of about this? 

I'm not aware of any studies you can hang your hat on but here's an article on the subject

https://www.eatingwell.com/article/7930160/inflammation-fatigue-heres-what-....

I know from personal experience if I'm having a reaction to something my energy levels plummet. Which makes sense since inflammation if your immune system going into overdrive to attack something.

 GEd_83 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

I find Dave's videos super interesting, and his findings kind of tally with a lot of my own anecdotal experience over the past few years. I got diagnosed with reactive arthritis in 2016 following a nasty ear infection I caught in a swimming pool, and it severely affected my life for a number of years.

I started to play around with different diets out of desperation really, and I started with a whole food based vegan diet. I did this for 12 months, and against all expectations I actually loved it, created some amazing meals! It did seem to alleviate my symptoms to a degree, and I obviously felt for the most part much healthier. However, it started to give me more and more digestive trouble, until it was actually causing a lot of stomach pain. So ditched it in 2019, to try a Keto diet, which I'd previously used super successfully in short 9-12 weeks spells years before. It very quickly 100% eliminated all of the symptoms I was experiencing and I've been on a whole food low carb diet ever since (sometimes keto if I'm inactive sat at work all day, sometimes just 'low carb').

Interestingly, I've found that if I say go on holiday and just eat tons of carbs for 1-2 weeks, symptoms start to slowly re-appear. Soon as I revert back to a clean low carb diet, they 100% disappear again.

All very weird for sure, must be something food based playing a factor but no idea how that ties in with the initial infection and reactive arthritis diagnosis I got. All I know is low carb / keto works perfectly for me personally and I'll take that.

 mountainbagger 23 Mar 2023
In reply to GEd_83:

Did the type of carbs make any difference do you think? E.g. wheat/gluten Vs rice Vs potato etc.?

 nufkin 23 Mar 2023
In reply to PaulJepson:

>  The month of gherkin slices will be exceptional television.   

Pickle Daaave!

 mountainbagger 23 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

> I'm not aware of any studies you can hang your hat on but here's an article on the subject

> I know from personal experience if I'm having a reaction to something my energy levels plummet. Which makes sense since inflammation if your immune system going into overdrive to attack something.

Ok, thanks. The article doesn't specifically refer to eczema, hay fever or asthma so it's not clear those contribute to pathological inflammation as they call it. I already eat quite well in terms of what that article recommends, but I'm wondering if keto or something similar to Dave's experiment would be beneficial for my eczema.

Also, I train for ultra marathons much of the year so would be interesting to know whether anyone has experience of low carb diets with this level of exercise (40-60 miles per week of running).

 plyometrics 23 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

Full keto diets are popular amongst some elite, and regular, ultra runners. I’m low carb, plant based, and my fasted endurance is pretty good. Worth having a play around to see what works for you. 

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Unrelated to what you wrote, but just wanted to say that when I go low carb (never no carb) I too lose a lot of weight (around 3kg or so) within a couple weeks, and then plateau. 

Is there any research on why that is? I have a hard time imagining I've actually burned through 3kg of my body in that time. 

Is it water weight? Does eating carbs, make you retain more water?

 PaulJepson 23 Mar 2023
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

I wonder if it's at all related to frequency of meals in nature? Meat eating hunters tend to be leaner and eat less frequently (which I also wondered if that was potentially a reason that Dave didnt seem to have as much of an appetite at some points on the diet), whereas vegetarian and omnivorous animals tend to eat more constantly. 

 artif 23 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

> Also, I train for ultra marathons much of the year so would be interesting to know whether anyone has experience of low carb diets with this level of exercise (40-60 miles per week of running).

Have you looked up Phil Maffetone? I lost weight and felt far more energetic when I followed his ideas.

The two week test been a good start for me.

1
In reply to PaulJepson:

For me, eating animal protein (and in particular beef), has been a great way to feel full for a long time, while not actually taking in that many calories. 

So I can understand why his appetite was way down on his all beef diet. 

But it doesn't really explain the sharp initial weight loss. If you're simply getting a calorie deficit by not eating enough calories because you feel so much more full eating beef, you would think the loss would be relatively constant. 

Not a huge quick drop off, and then much more steady decline or just maintain (as Dave saw).

It's something I've been wondering about for years, so it was good to see it mentioned in the video.  

 mountainbagger 23 Mar 2023
In reply to artif:

> Have you looked up Phil Maffetone? I lost weight and felt far more energetic when I followed his ideas.

> The two week test been a good start for me.

Yes, but only for low HR training... didn't realise he had other ideas on diet. Will look him up again, thanks!

 mountainbagger 23 Mar 2023
In reply to plyometrics:

> Full keto diets are popular amongst some elite, and regular, ultra runners. I’m low carb, plant based, and my fasted endurance is pretty good. Worth having a play around to see what works for you. 

Interesting, thank you. Plant based low carb must be difficult? I can take or leave meat but I absolutely love cheese (which might also be responsible for my eczema)!

 plyometrics 23 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

Fortunately, I love my veg, fruit and nuts, so don’t find it too difficult. Although I have to confess to having the odd bit of milk chocolate or a croissant every one in a while!

Do miss my cheese though, but this is a surprisingly good alternative: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/305836512

OP jiminy483 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Symptoms alleviated rather than cured though, if it comes back as soon as he starts eating a balanced diet again then it's not a cure.

Is it not? It depends what a balanced diet is. If a balanced diet can be achieved with only beef and milky tea then perhaps it is a cure. Apparently Jordan Peterson has been on a diet of steak and water with no supplements for some years and reports good health. I'm not sure I believe him though. Joe Rogan regularly waxes lyrical about this diet but only does it for a month. Dave's done it before and had amazing results, but then stops. Is the diet unpalatable? Why do people say how fantastic it is then stop?

What would be really interesting is if Dave stuck to this diet for a year then reported back. Not the Macdonald's nonsense but the best version of this diet - the finest beef, venison and duck. 

9
 Iamgregp 23 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Is a diet of beef burgers and tea balanced?  No.  you can just Google “balanced diet”.

But then millions of people the world over get by on an even less a varied diet so clearly that can sustain life and so I’m not here to condemn limited diets.  

However, I would question it as a lifestyle choice for people of means in developed countries.

Dave’s a good guy and I like what he does. I worry that you’ve referenced Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan however, they’re not good guys, and I don’t like what they do.

I would take anything they say with an almighty pinch of salt.

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 GEd_83 23 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

It's very difficult to say. Even on strict keto, I'll still tend to have one day in the week where I'll add potato or rice to my main meal. I'll also add extra carbs after a particularly strenuous day, and I nearly always opt for potato or rice, and this never seems to cause any issues. We have a takeaway usually once a month maybe, and having a pizza, burger etc doesn't give any issues either as a one off. So small amounts I seem ok with at least, although overall in a given month I definitely have more potato and rice than wheat/gluten/refined oils.

The only thing I know for certain, is that symptoms usually start to re-appear whenever I temporarily revert back to a standard western diet for more than several days in a row, so for example if I'm on holiday with the family, I'll eat whatever I want. After days 5/6, I'll notice the first signs of symptoms returning, brain fog/spaced out feeling, lethargy, and then finally bone pain. So it's like I reach some kind of threshold.

I suspect it's probably wheat/gluten, and/or refined vegetable oils, basically all or some of the crap you get in beige food and a lot of processed food, and/or maybe something to do with high blood sugar levels if I'm on a typical high carb diet. But again, no idea how that ties in when the original cause was a really bad ear infection, followed by a reactive arthritis diagnosis. 

So all really weird I know, I've long since given up on trying to understand it all, other than I generally feel amazing on low carb/keto, and that's been the case for a number of years consistently now, so I'll keep doing it.

 mountainbagger 23 Mar 2023
In reply to GEd_83:

Really interesting, thank you for taking the trouble to reply.

I do have a friend who started getting painful arthritis quite young. Apparently, it ran in his family and it would get progressively worse. He eliminated everything from his diet except unprocessed meat and some specific vegetables (even those had to be restricted). No dairy, no pulses, no added sugar, no coffee etc. He got some quite bad headaches at first (he thinks sugar withdrawal mainly) but it was miraculous other than that. His arthritis cleared up and his complexion was so much better. Obviously he lost weight. He slowly introduced certain things but found wheat (and sugar) to be particularly problematic if I remember correctly.

1
 Shani 23 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Great video, Dave!

I could have done with it back in the mid 2000s when I was exploring LC & Keto diets (https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/walls+training/how_to_get_the_body_to_bur...). UKC was a hostile place for Keto ideas back then (and gymnastics & HIT training ideas), but the results were startling. Some people seem to REALLY thrive on LC and,or keto diets.

I'm still LC as part of a TKD, but am considering an experiment similar to yours for a month or two. I know Peter at Hyperlipid gets by on just beef mince and liver....

Cheers,

Edit: Loved your 2019 interview with Ally Houston.

Post edited at 23:50
 montyjohn 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

> I worry that you’ve referenced Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan however, they’re not good guys, and I don’t like what they do.

You don't need to agree with someone politically to reference their diet. That's some sever tribalism going on there.

I do t know much bout Joe Rogan but Jordan Peterson comes across as genuine. Not sure why you would say he's not a good guy? 

25
OP jiminy483 24 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

Yeah bit strange, I don't have much of an opinion on JP as I find him so verbose I struggle to follow anything he says. I like JR and watch his podcast a lot, JP was on the show and they were talking about this diet.

9
 The New NickB 24 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

The issue with Peterson isn’t so much his politics, it’s his fundamental dishonesty.

3
 Shani 24 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

> Also, I train for ultra marathons much of the year so would be interesting to know whether anyone has experience of low carb diets with this level of exercise (40-60 miles per week of running).

Back in 2010 I was LC if not keto, and did the Welsh 14 3ks totally fasted. Afterwards I did reward myself with a "Big Jim" at Pete's Eats.

Although 4hrs in to the walk I found it tough for a period of a couple of hours, by the end of the walk I'd have happily turned around and done it again if I needed. It was a profound experience. 

 Hovercraft 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

I’ve not tried to watch the video given the length, so apologies if this is covered.

But the obvious question to me is: “What about scurvy?”

3
 montyjohn 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Hovercraft:

> But the obvious question to me is: “What about scurvy?”

According to the McDonalds website, the patty is 100% beef, but they do say "A little salt and pepper is added to season after cooking". Whether they still do this if you just order the patty I have no idea.

Pepper is very high in Vitamin C so may be enough to prevent or delay scurvy. 

https://www.mcdonalds.com/gb/en-gb/product/hamburger.html#accordion-195fbb6...

3
 Sean Kelly 24 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

Wasn't it Michael Moore who went on a McDonalds diet for a couple if months and when medically checked afterwards it was not good news. It did some serious damage to his internal organs IIRC.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0390521/?vendor_lead_channel=709&vendor_lead...

Post edited at 09:14
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 Iamgregp 24 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

It’s not so much their politics which makes me advise caution (after all Rogan is largely left leaning, Peterson right) as their public, repeated and serious errors of judgement, including (particularly in Rogan’s case) matters relating to their health and well-being.

If you want to take diet advice from a guy who endorsed Ivermectin as a treatment for covid that’s your business, but it’s hardly surprising that someone would suggest care must be taken around what they say.

5
OP jiminy483 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Sean Kelly:

That was Morgan Spurlock in Supersize Me. The difference was Morgan was eating everything, burger, bun, fries, cokes, milkshakes, desert. Dave just ate the patties, plain. The results of the two experiments were very different.

 Shani 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> Wasn't it Michael Moore who went on a McDonalds diet for a couple if months and when medically checked afterwards it was not good news. It did some serious damage to his internal organs IIRC.

Spurlock was very cagey about his dietary records and medical notes (and SuperSize me was not about a ketogenic diet).

Tom Naughton's follow-up, Fat Head, got much less traction, but was arguably more transparent. 

Post edited at 09:26
 montyjohn 24 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

>Ok, thanks. The article doesn't specifically refer to eczema, hay fever or asthma so it's not clear those contribute to pathological inflammation as they call it.

I am obviously no expert, but I would have thought that whatever is triggering your eczema may also be triggering other issues such as asthma and pathological inflammation.

I believe they can all be symptoms of the same root cause. 

So eczema and asthma don't need to contribute to pathological inflammation for you to have pathological inflammation.

I have a suspicious I have a mild intolerance to something but never worked out what it is. So if any of the above is clearly wrong I would love to know more.

> I'm wondering whether instead of being stoic, I should be taking the antihistamines and slapping on the steroid cream (or just eating beef)!

The problem with steroids and antihistamines is you can build up a tolerance to them. They're great for treating a current reaction, but all the advice I've received for my kids issues by doctors is to stop when the symptoms go away.

Removed User 24 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

> You don't need to agree with someone politically to reference their diet. That's some sever tribalism going on there.

> I do t know much bout Joe Rogan but Jordan Peterson comes across as genuine. Not sure why you would say he's not a good guy? 

Jordan Peterson is an absolutely grifter - do you know he works for the Daily Wire now?! When he's not weeping in interviews he's minimising climate change. He is clearly an expect in the field having 'examined the literature' which is a favourite phrase of his.

I'm aware of the very real benefits of low-carb diets mind.

Post edited at 09:35
2
 montyjohn 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

> 40 years of continuous eczema gone in two days of the intervention, reappeared on cessation of the intervention, gone on resumption of the intervention several times over. 

I appreciate you are not my lab rat, but I would love for you to slowly introduce other food groups one at a time to see if it's a specific food group that triggers your Eczema whilst also checking impact on strength etc. Could take a very long time however. 

Interested to know if you think it's a specific food group that you've eliminated that has resulted in the improvement, or whether it's the red meat only that has resulted in this outcome.

 Robert Durran 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> Wasn't it Michael Moore who went on a McDonalds diet for a couple if months and when medically checked afterwards it was not good news. It did some serious damage to his internal organs IIRC.

I think the point is that the meat is absolutely fine. It is all the sugar and other crap in the buns and other stuff which does the damage.

 Tyler 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

I think one interesting point that was not covered is that Dave ordered 17 individual burgers without bun whereas if he ordered 5 triple burgers and a double burger without bun he’d have saved quite a lot of money. 

OP jiminy483 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Tyler:

> I think one interesting point that was not covered is that Dave ordered 17 individual burgers without bun whereas if he ordered 5 triple burgers and a double burger without bun he’d have saved quite a lot of money. 

Are you sure? I find that quite hard to believe given that Dave is Scottish.

 Tyler 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Yes but the price saving is not as significant as I thought (pretty slight in fact) as there is no triple burger just a triple cheeseburger. I too find it hard to believe, not because of lazy stereotypes, but because Dave normally researches things very thoroughly. I now find myself questioning everything

Post edited at 10:38
 Rob Parsons 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Tyler:

> ... as there is no triple burger just a triple cheeseburger.

Just order the triple cheeseburger without cheese, and with no bun.

 Darkinbad 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Rob Parsons:

You mean a Royale?

 Tyler 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Just order the triple cheeseburger without cheese, and with no bun.

Erm, that was my point. 

 TechnoJim 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Darkinbad:

You know what they put on French fries in Lochaber instead of ketchup? Broon sauce. I've seen them do it man, they drown them in that sh*t.

 Arms Cliff 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Tyler:

I think later on it shows that he ordered the triple cheeseburger option, so must have done his research along the way 

 Sean Kelly 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

My apologies for false news. Memory  is failing fast!

In reply to Tyler:

> I think one interesting point that was not covered is that Dave ordered 17 individual burgers without bun whereas if he ordered 5 triple burgers and a double burger without bun he’d have saved quite a lot of money. 

Surely a lot more saving if you bought burgers from a shop.

 Crest Jewel 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

No surprise there (non-meat eater). Paradigm shifts historically evoke orchestrated resistance. Watch the video to make informed comments. 

11
 Iamgregp 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Crest Jewel:

I haven't commented on Dave's video.  Read my post.

2
 Crest Jewel 24 Mar 2023
In reply to DizzyVizion:

An uninformed comment. Watch the video and revise your false belief. 

13
 Crest Jewel 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

I'm assuming that in your use of 'not good' to describe Peterson and Rogan is an informed assessment on their moral worth is based on watching their videos and not hearsay?

17
 Crest Jewel 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Perpetuating stereotypes is so pedestrian. 

13
 TobyA 24 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

> The issue with Peterson isn’t so much his politics, it’s his fundamental dishonesty.

I'm really not very keen on his politics though!  

On his diet - didn't he get addicted to pain meds and go off to Moscow for some really weird anti-addiction treatment? He seems to be willing to try some left field ideas at least. 

 Matt Alexander 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

IIRC there were also other major differences in the structure which makes Supersize Me barely comparable to DM’s video.  Eg he was massively eating to excess (always said yes to an offer of “supersizing”, much bigger potions back in early 2000s, had to finish every meal no matter how stuffed he was), restricting his exercise to the average American’s steps etc.

Being no expert in these diets I found it really engaging and informative.

Post edited at 15:54
 Crest Jewel 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Removed User:

To assign the term 'grifter' to Jordan Peterson is slanderous. 

23
 ebdon 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Crest Jewel:

Why? Isnt he well known for getting addicted to painkillers and having a terrible mental breakdown (whitch sounds awful) but subsequently lieing about and saying directly contradictory stuff about men and seeking help? Perhaps I'm getting my social media celebs mixed up but on the face of it this sounds a bit 'griftery'

4
 montyjohn 24 Mar 2023
In reply to ebdon:

I'm not sure there is a single truth in your post.

>  Isnt he well known for getting addicted to painkillers and having a terrible mental breakdown

He was addicted to an anti-depressant that was prescribed to him.  A few things happened in a short time. He experienced an auto-immune condition, his wife had a condition and his anxiety went through the roof. Not sure why you think he is famous for this? he was pretty quiet at the time and nobody knew what was going on.

> but subsequently lieing about

What lies?

> and saying directly contradictory stuff about men and seeking help?

I tried searching this, I can't find anything he has said to discourage men form seeking help. He's a clinical psychologist remember. Pretty sure he wouldn't suggest such a thing.

> Perhaps I'm getting my social media celebs mixed up but on the face of it this sounds a bit 'griftery'

You're confusing something.

4
 ebdon 24 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

Fair enough, I seem to recall it was detailed in a thread on here a while back but I haven't the motivation to find it so  I shall take your word.

In reply to ebdon:

I'd say he's better known for his appalling views on climate change, awful misogyny, conspiracy theories, and for putting an academic veneer on a load of right-wing garbage.

His extreme supporters, including Christian conservatives and neo-Nazis, abuse and harass critics.

Post edited at 17:15
2
 ebdon 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Nick Brown - UKC:

Oh god have inadvertently criticised a social media celeb with a personality cult? Am I about to get cancelled?

In reply to ebdon:

It's too late for you now.

 Iamgregp 24 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

It was a benzodiazepine (anti anxiety drug) not anti-depressant. 

Message Removed 24 Mar 2023
Reason: inappropriate content
 TobyA 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

> It was a benzodiazepine (anti anxiety drug) not anti-depressant. 

Which he took after following some weird diet that made him, his daughter and his son in law all quite poorly - this is from reading a New York Post article about him earlier. But anyway, he doesn't sound like the best chap for taking dietary advice from! 

 TobyA 24 Mar 2023
In reply to ebdon:

Don't worry, all those "don't call us alt-right!" alt-right types like to think of themselves as free speech fundamentalists so they can't cancel you with looking silly, well sillier. ;⁠-⁠)

 Crest Jewel 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Nick Brown - UKC:

Evidential support or your personal prejudice?

17
In reply to Crest Jewel:

I’d start by watching his YouTube videos, or listening to his podcasts if I were you.

 Crest Jewel 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Personal prejudice it seems..

21
 Crest Jewel 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Nick Brown - UKC:

It seems that you are driven by personal prejudice rather than objective analysis. You also appear to be authoritarian in presumptions. 

19
 TobyA 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Crest Jewel:

Ok , what's your "objective analysis" of Peterson yesterday on twitter calling his country's pm and other senior cabinet ministers "@wef puppets"? My objective analysis is it's a not very subtle but rather sad dog whistle to the deluded conspiracy theory fans who get just a little too excited when the start wittering on about Schwab as the new, but helpfully slightly less Jewish, Soros - holding all our futures in his evil claws. It's weird really, because he calls everyone he doesn't like Marxists but is in effect playing tootsie with the people who have the most classic Marxist analysis of society: the bourgeoisie are everywhere and control what you think and do. Peterson and his ilk have just swapped the word with too many vowels in it for "globalist" or "WEF". 

This seems to be where Peterson wants to be these days, flogging himself on the right-wing speaking event and podcast circuit. Well, we've all gotta make a living. But hopefully he persuaded you to tidy your room up, so there's that.

3
OP jiminy483 24 Mar 2023
In reply to TobyA:

> Ok , what's your "objective analysis" of Peterson yesterday on twitter calling his country's pm and other senior cabinet ministers "@wef puppets"? My objective analysis is it's a not very subtle but rather sad dog whistle to the deluded conspiracy theory fans who get just a little too excited when the start wittering on about Schwab as the new, but helpfully slightly less Jewish, Soros - holding all our futures in his evil claws. It's weird really, because he calls everyone he doesn't like Marxists but is in effect playing tootsie with the people who have the most classic Marxist analysis of society: the bourgeoisie are everywhere and control what you think and do. Peterson and his ilk have just swapped the word with too many vowels in it for "globalist" or "WEF". 

> This seems to be where Peterson wants to be these days, flogging himself on the right-wing speaking event and podcast circuit. Well, we've all gotta make a living. But hopefully he persuaded you to tidy your room up, so there's that.

Jesus I only mentioned him because he was the only person I could think of who sticks to a meat only diet, because he talked to Joe Rogan about it on the show once. What have I  done!?

 TobyA 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Nowt to do with you lad! Don't worry yourself. The slightly odd hero worship wasn't coming from you. :⁠-⁠)

OP jiminy483 24 Mar 2023
In reply to TobyA:

On a serious note though, when you get these polarising cultural figures like Jorden Peterson, does it not make you want to listen to them? I listened to a lot of what he had to say, and came away with no opinion of him, the man speaks a language I don't understand and I can't tell if he's left wing right wing whatever because it's all just gibberish to me.

One thing he did say though, was that he had been on a steak and water diet for some time, over a year if I remember correctly, and he's not dead. So I thought that was relevant to the conversation.

Another guy I've been watching a lot of lately is Andrew Tate, if you saw my youtube history you'd probably think I was an Incel. I don't like him but I watch his stuff because I want to understand how he's doing what he's doing.

4
 Fellover 24 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

> The issue with Peterson isn’t so much his politics, it’s his fundamental dishonesty.

I occasionally see a bit of Peterson on YouTube, agree with some of what he says, disagree with some. I don't know what you're talking about r.e. fundamental dishonesty though. Would be interested to know.

Also, on topic for the thread - I've had quite bad eczema almost my whole life, this has prompted me to think about dietary solutions again. Hopefully I won't have to go fully carnivore though, I do like pasta a lot.

Post edited at 22:48
4
 Dave MacLeod 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

How it started: What is the evidence meat causes poor health?

How its going: Jordan Peterson, Neo-nazis, Rogan, Benzos, Right wing, conspiracy, WEF puppets, mysogyny, Klaus Schwab, Jewish, Marxists, grifters, slanderous.

Diet experiments take you to some weird places, like MiccyDs. But UKC threads really show how it's done. Where are we heading next?

3
 Fellover 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Hi Dave, bit of a personal question, so feel free to ignore, but was wondering how bad you would say your eczema was. I'm just aware that I know some people who have eczema but it really has very little impact on their life and I can imagine that level being 'cured' by dietary change. Whereas I struggle to see the level I have (probably an hour a day lost in applying various creams, uncontrollable scratching in my sleep when it's hot) being 'cured' by dietary change.

Maybe I just don't have enough faith in keto!

Edit to add: I don't mean to imply I don't believe you r.e. your eczema improvement, or to imply that I don't think eczema is a problem for people who don't have it as badly as me. Just wondering how drastic the change was really.

Post edited at 23:00
OP jiminy483 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

It's my fault I started it....

One serious question though, that I'm not sure was covered in the video, would you adhere to this diet permanently? 

The strength gains were quite outstanding and I'm really thinking about my own diet and how I could improve things. 

 mountainbagger 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

> How it started: What is the evidence meat causes poor health?

> How its going: Jordan Peterson, Neo-nazis, Rogan, Benzos, Right wing, conspiracy, WEF puppets, mysogyny, Klaus Schwab, Jewish, Marxists, grifters, slanderous.

> Diet experiments take you to some weird places, like MiccyDs. But UKC threads really show how it's done. Where are we heading next?

Hi Dave, I'll give it a go but I'm not holding out my much hope that everyone else won't just carry on talking about the worst of humanity. Do you also suffer from asthma or hay fever and did you notice any difference there too?

 Dave MacLeod 24 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Oh no, I take the blame for starting it. I wouldn't have any worries about this type of diet permanently (excluding the overcooking aspect of McDs meat). Hopefully I would not have to be so restrictive but I definitely feel significant benefits of a keto diet as I outlined in a previous video although even in this I am not in the slightest bit afraid to deviate from it when I feel like it.

 Dave MacLeod 24 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

No asthma but I do get hay fever and *possibly* this was less severe on a keto diet in past summers. I have yet to adhere to a carnivore diet over the summer months. Please don't set up yet another experiment for me!!! (just kidding, I like them).

 lowersharpnose 24 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

My asthma and hay-fever has gone.  I had both for 50 years, two inhalers etc, .

In my fourth year of no symptoms and no medication.

I am not carnivore, but very low carb, mostly meat/dairy, some nuts.

OP jiminy483 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Thanks, I'm going to do some reading and have a good think about all this. My older brother is really getting into Jujitsu atm and I need to be able to tap him out this summer so my nieces and nephews still recognise me as the family badass.

In reply to jiminy483:
 

>One serious question though, that I'm not sure was covered in the video, would you adhere to this diet permanently? 

Presumably the limiting factor on these diets, is the monotony of it all. 

In his video, Dave mentions he only does these as experiments for a bit, and then goes back to a more normal diet despite the lower average bodyweight and other benefits (like his skin getting better) he gets from them. 

I would assume it's because eating meat, day in day out, is pretty boring. And there's more to life than being 3kg average lighter, and having stronger fingers. 

It'd be a massive lifestyle choice to do that forever more. 

Even during his McDonalds experiment, he paused it for a few days over xmas. Probably because dad tucking into his refrigerated mcdonalds beef patties at the christmas dinner table when everyone else is enjoying turkey with all the trimmings, is a sad sight to see. 

What would be interesting, is if he can get the benefits he saw with a less gruelling regime. 

For example an all beef diet for 5 days a week, and then whatever on the weekends. 

 Dave MacLeod 24 Mar 2023
In reply to Fellover:

I'll make a whole video on this at some point. It was pretty bad. Worst in my childhood. I had a couple of stints in hospital for longish periods and was briefly unable to walk because I basically didn't have any skin on my feet. Huge blisters and subsequent total skin breakdown. Hands badly affected then as well with skin constantly bleeding and infected. In adulthood it retreated mostly to my feet but still spent the whole drive from Glasgow to the Cairngorms trying not to think about the pain of putting my boots on and clenched my teeth for the first hour of any walk in. Nightly routine of steroids, bandaging, pain itch and sleep disturbance most of the time, with some less severe periods as well. Near constant pain in rock shoes from bleeding blisters which turned into big hacks. In combination with steroid thinned skin they just wouldn't heal. I wore socks with my rock shoes for many years which took the edge of it and soaked up the blood.

I first had relief in 2016 when I did a multi-day fast for the first time. By the end of the second day the blisters just stopped coming and my feet were 100% healed in a week. It immediately returned after the fast. Exactly the same result with my first carnivore diet in Jan 2018, but this time with a slow return of the eczema over many weeks. In 2019 (I think, I'd need to look at my notes) after another multi-day fast the eczema returned, but only on one foot (I have no explanation for this). Then after carnivore diet in Feb 2022 it immediately stopped again and did not return, even with reintroducing a wide range of plant foods again. After the McDonald's experiment I did a whole food vegetarian diet experiment for 6 week and the eczema has returned, thankfully only mildly. So I will likely run another full carnivore stint and see if I can eliminate it again.

 

OP jiminy483 24 Mar 2023
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

>  

> >One serious question though, that I'm not sure was covered in the video, would you adhere to this diet permanently? 

> Presumably the limiting factor on these diets, is the monotony of it all. 

> In his video, Dave mentions he only does these as experiments for a bit, and then goes back to a more normal diet despite the lower average bodyweight and other benefits (like his skin getting better) he gets from them. 

> I would assume it's because eating meat, day in day out, is pretty boring. And there's more to life than being 3kg average lighter, and having stronger fingers. 

> It'd be a massive lifestyle choice to do that forever more. 

> Even during his McDonalds experiment, he paused it for a few days over xmas. Probably because dad tucking into his refrigerated mcdonalds beef patties at the christmas dinner table when everyone else is enjoying turkey with all the trimmings, is a sad sight to see. 

> What would be interesting, is if he can get the benefits he saw with a less gruelling regime. 

> For example an all beef diet for 5 days a week, and then whatever on the weekends. 

I'm not sure, obviously a diet of MacDonald's patties would be awful but I diet of red meat? I think I could live off a diet of Lamb, Beef, Venison and Duck. I don't have any intolerances or allergies so maybe I could get away with a bit of mint sauce, ketchup, cranberry or plum sauce. Cheeky lump of Toblerone at the weekend, I only eat once a day now quite often, I think it could be done. I'd have to spend quite a lot of money running the oven.

I should try it.

 Fellover 25 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

I think that more than justifies 'pretty bad'! Sounds awful. Is somewhat different to mine, my feet are more or less the only unaffected part! I also improved going into adulthood and I actually had a couple of pretty unaffected years but then I was licked by a dog and it came back with a vengeance.

Thank you for the detailed response - really interesting and is certainly making me consider trying a fast or carnivore diet experiment. I'd definitely watch a video on it, I've never seen any other climbers discussing climbing with eczema. Mostly when climbers talk about skin condition it's not the same thing as I'm thinking about!

As an aside is eczema a reason why you (at least as far as I know) aren't so keen on multiday alpine or Yosemite type routes in comparison with single day type things? I know that I struggle to manage my skin on multiday routes, or even just extended camping trips.

 Dave MacLeod 25 Mar 2023
In reply to Fellover:
Yes camping or multiday mountaineering without access to washing and clean socks was a bit of a nightmare and was a bit of factor in taking some of the enjoyment out of it. Even though you get used it not being there I don't think I will ever get over the novelty of being able to pull on rock shoes without pain now, or walk barefoot without knowing it would cause skin meltdown.

 UKC Forums 25 Mar 2023

This thread has been tidied a little to try and get it back on track. Please feel free to start another on any separate subject.

 Fellover 25 Mar 2023
In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Thanks. Happy for you that you've managed to get past the worst of it, enjoy your pain free rock shoes

 mountainbagger 25 Mar 2023
In reply to Fellover:

My eczema is/was nowhere near as bad as yours or Dave's was. It's just flared up recently beyond the usual background annoyance and it's disrupting my sleep through itching/scratching. The idea of being able to control it or send it back to the background through diet is very interesting for me as the steroid creams are not ideal and have zero other benefit.

Hay fever is new for me in the last few years and has become increasingly irritating. Starts in Feb, so assume that's tree pollen. Asthma for me is very mild or nonexistent. I don't use an inhaler but the doc believes I could have it due to persistent tickly coughing (brushing my teeth is one of the triggers weirdly!) I've had since my late teens.

After my next ultra (2 weeks) I'm going to give low carb a go, then keto if nothing significant from the low carb diet. Last resort is just Macdonald's patties!

 aln 25 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

I didn't watch the whole video, so maybe this was covered. But in following a diet like this, rather than MacD's, wouldn't it be better eating fresh organic beef burgers, venison etc?

OP jiminy483 25 Mar 2023
In reply to aln:

> I didn't watch the whole video, so maybe this was covered. But in following a diet like this, rather than MacD's, wouldn't it be better eating fresh organic beef burgers, venison etc?

Yes and Dave states that, saying he choose to take an additional supplement because Mcdonalds overcook the meat, and that it wouldn't be necessary if the meat was cooked rare.  I think the point of the experiment was to show that it isn't the meat that causes bad health but all the other stuff that normally comes with it.

When I heard about this months ago I assumed this would be McDonalds meat is full of additives, unhealthy, too fatty ect.  The video really surprised me and made me think,  watch the results section about an hour in, it's something!

 trying.soft 25 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

I think people who hasn't watched the video should refrain from making any comments on a video-specific thread, as you'd clearly have no idea what you'd be talking about. 

Just saying...

2
 Iamgregp 26 Mar 2023
In reply to trying.soft:

Lots of people have contributed to this thread who haven’t seen the video. Like me, they’re contributed to a discussion that’s often deviated quite far from the original topic. 

Appreaciye that can be frustrating at times, but it’s far from unusual on here.

11
 GEd_83 26 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

Just a bit of advice from my own experience, if you're going to try it out. Obviously everyone's different, but food for thought for you.

I think it would be tricky to go to a 'low carb' diet straight from a standard diet. Certainly with me it was necessary to go straight to keto initially, and then much easier after the first month or two of that to then increase the carbs a bit to more of a general low carb level. I think the cravings for carbs/sugar would possibly be too much doing it the other way around if that makes sense. Seems a bit like cutting down on say cigarettes, caffeine, or anything else addictive, it's actually just easier to cut it out completely. So Keto comes with that initial 1-3 week period where you'll be craving sugary snacks, anything carby, but after that initial period (was about 2 weeks for me) all those cravings stop suddenly. Whereas by starting low carb, you might end up having those cravings for a longer period, albeit maybe less intense.

Funny you mention tickly coughing. I've always suffered badly with tickly coughs every single winter since I was very young. Every time I'd get a cold, it would always develop into a horrendous tickly cough that I'd be stuck with for weeks. Got diagnosed with 'probably asthma' as a result when I was young, but never needed to use an inhaler. Since being low carb/keto fully since 2019, I've not had a single cold, bug, nor any tickly coughs. 

Good luck with it all anyway

 Bulls Crack 26 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Combine? 1 Meat and 2 veg? 

 mountainbagger 26 Mar 2023
In reply to GEd_83:

Thanks a lot for this! Ok, I'll have a look into just jumping in full keto. It's going to be weird. I don't have a sweet tooth, so I'm not too worried about missing overtly sugary foods, but I will definitely miss carbs...I consume a huge amount of bread (usually with cheese)!

 Shani 27 Mar 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

> Thanks a lot for this! Ok, I'll have a look into just jumping in full keto.

Beware of 'low carb flu'. It takes a couple of weeks for gloconeogenesis to ramp up (IIRC). Until then you may feel a bit rough. Don't scrimp on calories.

 JimR 27 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

The big question for me is .... Is chocolate allowed?

On a more serious note , cutting out dairy and gluten solved a whole range of issues for me including eczema, IBS amongst other things. I suffered since I was a toddler and wasn't diagnosed and fixed by cutting out the aforementioned until 50 years later. Changed my life.

 Fred Patch 27 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Have you started this yet? If so how do you feel? I'm thinking of starting something similar myself

 nufkin 27 Mar 2023
In reply to JimR:

>  Is chocolate allowed?

Something like Lindt's hardcore 90% bar seems to be okay

 PaulTclimbing 28 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Some random thoughts

paleo diets - paleolithic hunters did not feast on meat. They went straight to organs/soft tissue, bone marrow, heart , liver, kidneys and brain. Is meat the least beneficial (saccharined) form. 

animal protein ( meat!) is necessary to maintain deep stores of minerals regulating ( critical)  cell function  as I understand it. Deficiency illnesses in ultra athletes emerge after/over time,  10-14 years otherwise ( unscientific/anacdotal ) from watching a few veggie/vegan friends . Some recoverable /some not. Appreciate could be other causes, health, lifestyle, age, duration etc. 


 


 


 


 

5
 stubbed 28 Mar 2023
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

I'm not an ultra athlete but I've been vegetarian for over 30 years including during pregnancy & breast feeding. I don't appear to be suffering from any 'deficiency illness'?

 montyjohn 28 Mar 2023
In reply to stubbed:

> I'm not an ultra athlete but I've been vegetarian for over 30 years including during pregnancy & breast feeding. I don't appear to be suffering from any 'deficiency illness'?

Same, bar the pregnancy and breast feeding.

Although, you never know, what if eating meat would turn me into superman? Apart form B12, I'm not aware of any protein, mineral, vitamin etc that can't be sourced from a vegetarian diet. Since cereal is fortified with B12 it's a non issue for me.

 GEd_83 28 Mar 2023
In reply to stubbed:

I think deficiencies are more of a risk if you are vegan, as opposed to being vegetarian.

 montyjohn 28 Mar 2023
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

> paleo diets - paleolithic hunters did not feast on meat. They went straight to organs/soft tissue, bone marrow, heart , liver, kidneys and brain. Is meat the least beneficial (saccharined) form. 

Surely we can't know this.

> animal protein ( meat!) is necessary to maintain deep stores of minerals regulating ( critical)  cell function  as I understand it.

Any minerals in particular? I'd be surprised if there are any which can't be sourced elsewhere.

> Deficiency illnesses in ultra athletes emerge after/over time,  10-14 years otherwise ( unscientific/anacdotal ) from watching a few veggie/vegan friends .

A diet is a very individual thing. What works for one person, won't necessarily work for others. A vegetarian that has a very restrictive diet isn't likely to work which could be what you witnessed. Or perhaps they had some unique biological factor that makes replacing meat difficult. Who knows.

> Some recoverable /some not. 

What was non-recoverable? 

 Iamgregp 28 Mar 2023
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

But then there are many wildly successful professional athletes who have been vegan or vegetarian right throughout their competitive careers. 

 PaulTclimbing 28 Mar 2023
In reply to stubbed:

I did say it was unscientific abscdital but often from a vociferous minority. I’m not advocating changing lifestyle/food choices. I have myself rejected the religiosity of vegan/veggie vociferous expousing but my jury is not fully out. I live with a rampant veggie. I liken the stuff I have to hear as like. ‘ How d’ya know there’s a veggie/vegan in the pub. They’ll tell everyone. !’ I’m not against any of it. I love veggie food. I do object to govt policy/bbc promotion without unscientific evidence that we need lifestyle change etc. 

I personally think the food is less significant in comparison to ruminating mobility. What I mean by that. See the dietary problems of Las Vegas First Nations people’s and diabetes. Allegedly they are fast starve feast bust and the reduced mobility high meat diet causes obesity. In there lyfestyle change. 
 

a study over 20 years looked at calorie intake in venezyalran (?) villagers. 1/2 were moved to a re settlement town. Average calorie intake remained the same between the moved and those who stayed in the forest 2200 calories per day. But the moved ones got overweight/sicker. This was put down to a lack of mobility. The forest dwellers maintained their movement patterns for food/resources. The city dwellers became sedentary ( nothing to do ). Maybe DNA factors get affected. But sounds like America. 
 

sorr if I’ve written this and it sounds offensive to veggie/vegans, I don’t mean to be. As my wife’s one, but it’s my experience. I’m sure there’s lots of veggie/vegan ultra runners out there with no/never ever will have illness. Maybe I’m sensitised to these interesting crap given out by that guy off Golfie looking chain and all that stuff going on trying to force us towards non beef/lamb farming along with other govt stuff. Anacditally I tend to resist wholesale info like having to accept we ain’t gonna eat meat in the same way I saw the religion of drinking water in runners world/American info in races that caused my nate nearly dying from hypernatraemia and this stuff is forced on kids in school to drink )x) litres of water on class. 
whereas it’s my belief that CO2 in classrooms  leads to hyperactive/in compliant/bad behaviours. Witness the co2 meters (Covid) and how quickly this can rise in a room to unsafe levels. 
 

just random thoughts. Got any insights. And again apologies if offended. I love nut roast, chestnut four cheese pie and cauliflower cheese or mushroom risotto. In particular. 

12
 PaulTclimbing 28 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

In Siberia 

they still do and also there are no butchery marks found in the bone sites at south coast paleo lithic locations where animals were run over cliffs and fed upon. I think it’s recognised as latest thoughts. Obviously if it was me, I’d dry some meat jerky for winter like First Nation native American Indians. So tgeyre bound to eat some. Then again Ortzi had more porridge of meal/grains. I believe. 

3
 PaulTclimbing 28 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

Apparently I’ve heard that you can score good for minerals/vits/nutrients eg iron in blood stream as though fit healthy , but this masks/dupes the medics and you have im gonna call it deep cellular losses that can only be re stored by meat enzymes carrying them. That’s what my buddy had, was told. Like I said all anacdotal, but I do listen out for this stuff both for health and out of interest. Soz if that doesn’t sit well with anyone. Thanks for being polite! 

3
 PaulTclimbing 28 Mar 2023
In reply to DizzyVizion:

Whereas modern medicine paradigms I research are paid for by US drug giants. Shut down research contrary to their views/interests/sales. Many GP practitioners leave them and the phase of de prescribing medicines is happening/starting to happen as an alternative( not saying it’s wrong right)

my experience of asthma is an example  15 years ago a vaccine cure was stated in bbc news  no vaccine no cure. still huge sales of medicines and increased diagnosis of asthma  they are making millions and the GP has very little knowledge/understanding of conditions  to the extent I’d say they that I am sceptical of their subject currency and knowledge or even diss interested.  I’ve never had any progress  and view the GP as Govt gatekeeper  ( by gatekeeper, I’m beginning to believe ‘enemy’ sadly in getting your health sorted)  and this is the govt ( last 10 years regime) to annihilate the NHS  and make us the fee paying  US  system or at least pre aneurism Bevin  extend waiting lists until the old say ‘ oh Doris, we got a bit of retirement money, we earned it, let’s use it and jump the queue/go private for that knee replacement !’ But that’s another story 

2
OP jiminy483 28 Mar 2023
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

I was a vegetarian for 3 years and a vegan for a year after that. I felt OK as a vegetarian however I ate dairy and eggs with every meal. Eventually I realised that if you are concerned about animal welfare being a vegetarian is no better than being a meat eater, perhaps even worse when it comes to dairy.

So then I decided to become vegan, at first I put a lot of effort into the diet trying to get all the nutrients I needed, it didn't matter how hard I tried all the food I cooked just tasted revolting to me. After a few months my diet was appalling mostly consisting of bread, chips, fruit and baked beans. I'm 6 3 in a big frame and I went down to 11 stone, malnutritioned and constantly ill with colds. The final straw was when I snapped my collar bone in a pretty average bike crash.

Now I just accept that I'm a carnivore. My best friends are two dogs and they don't seem to worry about it, I think it is possible for people to be healthy as vegans but it had really bad results for me.

4
 Jon Greengrass 28 Mar 2023
In reply to GEd_83:

I ended up with a B12 deficiency on a flexitarian diet, but I wasn't eating fortified cereal or white bread.

 The New NickB 28 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

I’m not a vegan, but I’ve had loads of fantastic vegan meals. I’m sure there are plenty challenges to a vegan lifestyle, but tasty and filling food really shouldn’t be one of them.

OP jiminy483 28 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

> I’m not a vegan, but I’ve had loads of fantastic vegan meals. I’m sure there are plenty challenges to a vegan lifestyle, but tasty and filling food really shouldn’t be one of them.

I've never enjoyed a vegan meal.

Edit: I've never enjoyed a healthy vegan meal.

Post edited at 13:18
6
 Iamgregp 28 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Bean on toast?

 montyjohn 28 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Bean on toast?

Just one bean?

 mountainbagger 28 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

> Just one bean?

It was a typo, he's asking if he's ever been on toast?

OP jiminy483 28 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Bean on toast?

Toast isn't healthy.

9
 Iamgregp 28 Mar 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

I have a small appetite. 

 Iamgregp 28 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Eating a slice or two of wholegrain once a week or so is fine.

2
 RX-78 28 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Not vegan but had a vegan meal last night, stir fried tofu and  broccoli in a peanut sauce with spring onions and rice. Very nice, healthy? 

 fotoVUE 28 Mar 2023

Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan

Beware the meat fascists, Dave's preamble up to his results explain a lot.

I have a low carb diet, well, very little simple carbs (sugar, bread, potatoes); lots of veg (including microgreens), some meat (liver, steak), oily fish, lots of fermented stuff (beet kvass, dairy and water kefir, kimchi, kraut), cacao, nuts, sourdough loaf once a week, cheese as a treat, berries and daily fasting, no snacking, beer only at weekends - no food after 6pm and eat the next day at around 11am. I also reduced portion size, and am happy being hungry (until I'm not!).

Lost 2 stone in the initial 12 weeks and have maintained that weight loss for 2 plus years. Well being and energy levels have increased drastically and I enjoy climbing more being lighter.

OP jiminy483 28 Mar 2023
In reply to RX-78:

> Not vegan but had a vegan meal last night, stir fried tofu and  broccoli in a peanut sauce with spring onions and rice. Very nice, healthy? 

Sounds lovely apart from the tofu, yuk.

 RX-78 28 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

Replace with aubergine? Mushrooms?

OP jiminy483 28 Mar 2023
In reply to RX-78:

Yeah I'm sorry but I just don't like it, there's an essential ingredient missing. Like the beans on toast example, without the butter I'm not interested. Plus I don't eat bread because it messes up my ingestion, it's the only food that gives me stomach problems.

I eat a huge plate of food once a day and I really enjoy it. I want to eat highly nutritious food, meat, veg and fruit. I don't eat bread or rice and I don't pasta very often. Since I changed my diet I'm now 15 stone but not fat, my job is renovating houses so being able to lift heavy stuff makes my life a lot easier.

I'd never go back to veganism, I've tried it and it's not for me. Hopefully before I'm gone lab grown meat and dairy will be the norm. If it becomes a viable option I'd be the first to try it.   

 Iamgregp 28 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

To be fair, beans on toast really is lacking something if there’s no butter. I’m on board with that…

Post edited at 17:55
1
 RX-78 28 Mar 2023
In reply to Iamgregp:

Indeed and grated cheese on top of the hot beans.

Couldn't live without bread! 

In reply to GEd_83:

Anecdotally I know a lot of people who had to give up veganism (and switched to veggie/pesc) on doctors orders and felt much better for it. 

You probably can get everything you need from a vegan diet, and supplements. 

But the level of effort you'll need to put into planning your food intake, means most won't do it. 

1
OP jiminy483 28 Mar 2023
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> You probably can get everything you need from a vegan diet, and supplements. 

> But the level of effort you'll need to put into planning your food intake, means most won't do it. 

This is me all over, I live alone and I hate cooking. I can chuck a lump of meat and some veg in the oven and eat a healthy meal. Messing about with loads of different ingredients and eating small portions all day just doesn't happen. I feel good, lots of energy, don't take supplements and I don't get ill with colds and stuff, I catch them and they're gone in 24 hrs. When I was vegan every cold would result in weeks of hacking coughing. 

1
 Iamgregp 28 Mar 2023
In reply to RX-78:

Now you're talking!

I don't eat much bread, maybe once a week or so.  We don't even have a toaster in the house... Can't say I really miss it now I've got out of the habit.

Beer on the other hand...

OP jiminy483 29 Mar 2023
In reply to Fred Patch:

> Have you started this yet? If so how do you feel? I'm thinking of starting something similar myself

No, I've given it some thought and I'm not sure what I'd have to gain. I'm always trying to eat more meat and veg and avoid rice, bread and pasta. This seems to be the healthiest diet to me. I don't want to lose weight nor do I have any skin conditions or allergies. 

If someone I trusted (like Dave) stuck to the diet for a year or so and reported good health and significant strength gains I might think again.

Anyway I thought the video was really interesting and not what I expected.

 fotoVUE 30 Mar 2023
In reply to jiminy483:

> Jesus I only mentioned him because he was the only person I could think of who sticks to a meat only diet, because he talked to Joe Rogan about it on the show once. 

There is also Bear Grylls who also advocated a meat only diet on a Louis Theroux profile. Again not good to take dietary advice from a celebrity. 

 NorthernGoat 30 Mar 2023
In reply to fotoVUE:

I didn't know Jesus and Bear Grylls were both on meat diets? Everyday's a school day.

Anecdotally I'm a vegetarian* ultrarunner, I tend to consume all nonanimal foodstuffs I can find, and manage to maintain just under 10stone. I'd hate to think the amount of meat I'd have to eat to maintain a calorie equilibrium if I wasn't pouring carbs down my throat every hour. 

*My veggie stance came from a place of recognising the their must be huge trauma to the people involved in intensive abbatoir work. I decided I wanted to limit the suffering my life choices made (yes I'm still working on other areas of my life to improve that as well ie reducing consumptio , driving less, looking for banks that don't fund fossil fuels/weapons companies)

1
 mondite 01 Apr 2023
In reply to fotoVUE:

> There is also Bear Grylls who also advocated a meat only diet on a Louis Theroux profile.

Really?

Damn I like meat but since the general rule of thumb is do the opposite of him its time to go vegan.

 Shani 02 Apr 2023
In reply to NorthernGoat:

> *My veggie stance came from a place of recognising the their must be huge trauma to the people involved in intensive abbatoir work. I decided I wanted to limit the suffering my life choices made (yes I'm still working on other areas of my life to improve that as well ie reducing consumptio , driving less, looking for banks that don't fund fossil fuels/weapons companies)

Obe of the reasons I was happy to ditch vegetarianism and veganism was the realusstion that far from limiting suffering they simply push it to where is can't be seen.

My position now is one of opposition to poor farming practices whether arable or pastoral. That said, my lifestyle is probably not 'cruelty free' and I'm far from perfect, but I do try.

6
 Shani 02 Apr 2023
In reply to Shani:

Damn those typos! 😔

 montyjohn 13 Apr 2023
In reply to NorthernGoat:

> My veggie stance came from a place of recognising the their must be huge trauma to the people involved in intensive abbatoir work

I can't imagine looking at the operations of an abattoir and feeling sorry for the humans. 

3
 65 13 Apr 2023
In reply to TobyA:

> Don't worry, all those "don't call us alt-right!" alt-right types like to think of themselves as free speech fundamentalists so they can't cancel you with looking silly, well sillier. ;⁠-⁠)

I'll start paying attention to Jordan Peterson's views on diet when he starts regularly onsighting some of Dave Mac's harder headpoints. Until then I'll afford them the credence I give to absolutely everything else he says.

2
 Shani 13 Apr 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

> > My veggie stance came from a place of recognising the their must be huge trauma to the people involved in intensive abbatoir work

> I can't imagine looking at the operations of an abattoir and feeling sorry for the humans. 

When I see clouds of pesticides being sprayed on a field I struggle to empathise with veg*ns.

9
 65 13 Apr 2023
In reply to fotoVUE:

> There is also Bear Grylls who also advocated a meat only diet on a Louis Theroux profile. Again not good to take dietary advice from a celebrity. 

What a thread. Sports scientist and leading climber who by his own admission does not naturally have a perfect climber's physiology yet has still operated at the very top for 2 decades+ writes article. Responders cite the well known uber-athletes Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson and Bear Grylls. FFS.  

 Fellover 13 Apr 2023
In reply to montyjohn:

> I can't imagine looking at the operations of an abattoir and feeling sorry for the humans. 

I did when I watched the recent Clarkson's Farm. Did also feel sorry for the animals tbf.


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