UKH

Remember when we used to argue about religion on here?  Ah, happy days.

Daniel Kokotajlo's 2017 film 'Apostasy' was on BBC2 the other night, and it's up on the iPlayer for the next month or so.

It doesn't have a lot of laughs, but it's beautifully made and in many ways a beautiful film about a devout Jehova's Witness and her two young adult daughters living in Oldham.  The cast are superb, especially the understated performance of the three female leads.

In some ways it reminded me of "Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit" (showing my age a bit there), but Siobhan Finneran's character is at the same time more sympathetic and more monstrous than Geraldine McEwan's dotty evangelical mum with her ham radio and her harmonium.

There are no real villains here, even the elders are portrayed as mostly well-intentioned cogs in the rigidly dogmatic and ruthlessly authoritarian machine of their cult.  (Yes, it is a cult.)

Well worth a watch but er..  perhaps not if you're looking for a bit of jolly escapism eh?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000nx25

Not happy days for me when facing off atheists as hardline in their views as some of the exteme theists. The most fundamental problem with hate in the world is where dogmatism is put above humanity.

Thanks for the heads up on the film though.

I read the plot synopsis, it seems grim even for Oldham.

I saw it on Sunday. Well worth watching, great acting. 

No real baddies other than the religion, but I had little empathy for the The elders and the mother, who let the family be torn apart by bloody minded dogmatism. Are they really all like that?

I didn't know much about the Jehovah's witnesses previously but i am now a lot less inclined to be polite to any that come knocking on my door.

There is no hate in the film, and I think that's rather the point. With enough faith and a certain kind of dogma people can do terrible things out of love.

As I understand it there's very little room for interpretation. None of Father Jack's wishy washy "that would be an ecumenical matter".  Any dissent at all and you're out. And being disfellowshipped is absolutely brutal.  A good friend of a friend (an acquaintance of mine) hasn't spoken to his mother or his sister in nearly 20 years.

Oh no, please don't do that.

Firstly there just no need. If you want them to go away asking them politely to go away works just as well as being rude to them. (But if you *really* want to see them scarper you could tell them you used to be a JW yourself but got disfellowshipped before you moved to the area.)

Secondly, they're invariably lovely people. Seriously misguided in my opinion, but that no reason to kick a puppy.

But most importantly (imo) you are playing into the hands of the organisation. Doing their sorry work for them. The point of door to door evangelism is not to sign up new recruits, it hardly ever works. The point is to bind the people doing the door knocking tighter into the 'in' group. They're sent out into the world to experience rejection, scorn, what have you from us non believers, it's a chilly and dispiriting experience, the kind of common adversity that can really bond people together.  Then they get back to a meeting and the warm fuzzies of acceptance. It's a kind of brain washing really.

Thanks, interesting.

Thanks again for the heads up, its an incredibly powerful film. I disagree about hatefulness on the margins. How dogma can lead to inhuman outcomes is perfectly illustrated in the film (and I would agree there) but worse happens in reality as not all JWs are good (if deluded) people at heart: power corrupts and elders hold real power in that community.

A serious example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses%27_handling_of_child_se...

Indeed - my dad ( a lay Methodist preacher) would often engage them in well mannered theological debate. I’m afraid I’m not up to his standard so merely send them on their way with a “goo luck with your witness” and go back to my drinking and gambling den.

You're not disagreeing with me there, you're misrepresenting me.  I said there are no villains in the film, or at least that the characters who do hateful things are not motivated by hate, and in a later post I said the people who come knocking on your door are "invariably lovely people" (despite their delusions).

I just had to check "invariably" in the dictionary to make sure it doesn't mean "absolutely always without exception".  It doesn't, I was using the word correctly and of course there are exceptions.  Are you f*cking gaslighting me or something? 

Spare me the lecture, I'm well aware of your 'serious example'.  Like certain other churches you could mention this organisation might almost have been specifically designed to allow abusers in positions of power the means to get away with serious crimes.  I didn't mention that in the OP because it has absolutely no relevance to the film.

I was raise in the organisation and can say from my experience at least, that this film is a painfully accurate representation in every respect. My sister was disfellowshipped and treated exactly as shown in the film, including by my mother. I have absolutely no doubt that had I needed a life saving blood transfusion as a child my mother would have done everything in her power to prevent it (fortunately my father was an atheist).

As per deepsoup's reply, please don't. If you ask them to leave they will. You can also ask to be put on the little known about (outside JWs)'do not call again' list. Alternatively you could try picking holes in the some of the ludicrous beliefs, it's not hard. Don't expect to change any minds though, however killer your arguments. Whatever you come up with they'll have a piece of pre-programmed circular reasoning to cover it.

We used to publish an occult magazine. We'd invite them in ask as if they wanted to do swapsies on literature. I used to love winding them up with quotes from Aleister Crowley. Funnily the only person they really had a go at was the Catholic friend of ours "follower of the anti-Christ" apparently

Thanks for you insight as someone with direct experience.

I only said I'd be less polite, I wouldn't be outright rude to them anyway. Before seeing the film I might have been interested in inviting them in for a chat if they came when I was furloughed and.haf spare time.

After seeing the film and your confirmation that it was an accurate portrayal I can't imagine id want to do that.

As an apostate myself I can only be grateful that Catholicism is not as harsh to those that reject their nonsense. Grim.