Wintour's Leap and the Quarry Gate - update

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 Rick Sewards 01 Apr 2020

Hi all

Back in the winter (when we were all looking forward to Spring and warm rock again...) I posted about the quarry gate - I can report that this has now been serviced and in addition the code has been changed (it had started to get a little too well-known).  However, of course everything has changed now with the coronavirus lockdown and the BMC's advice to put climbing on hold.  For that reason, we won't be putting the new number up in the usual way through the RAD while the current situation remains in force.

This isn't a permanent change to the access regime but please don't attempt to use the gate - climbers parking up in the village and attempting to enter the quarry in the current climate will not help us in the long term, quite apart from the risks of infection or accident. 

Thanks very much

Rick

 bpmclimb 02 Apr 2020
In reply to Rick Sewards:

Hi Rick. On a related topic, I wonder if something should be done about closing Wyndcliffe Quarry for the time being and/or banning parking behind the cones. There are one or two climbers to be seen there most days, with their cars parked behind the cones. Also, a couple of climbers with matching motorbikes parked a little further on on the grass have made more than one visit. There were two climbers there just this afternoon. The police routinely drive by: they must know it's climbers, you would think, but they don't seem inclined to check it out. I don't normally feel comfortable blowing the whistle, but it does seem particularly brazen, being such a popular crag and right by the road. I'm sure it must be giving climbers a bad name.

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 nikoid 03 Apr 2020
In reply to bpmclimb:

I don't know how you could close the place, I would suggest a sign, but if people are still climbing there at this stage it is probably going to be ignored, unfortunately.

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 bpmclimb 03 Apr 2020
In reply to nikoid:

> I don't know how you could close the place, I would suggest a sign, but if people are still climbing there at this stage it is probably going to be ignored, unfortunately.

Well, maybe, but signs might be a bit of a deterrent - they certainly wouldn't hurt. No parking signs behind the cones would help greatly (being on the road, it'd be best to have official approval). There are other options; e.g. remove the first couple of hangers from all the bolted routes, phone the police, explain the situation and suggest they drop in when they see cars there .....

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 Luke90 03 Apr 2020
In reply to bpmclimb:

> phone the police, explain the situation and suggest they drop in when they see cars there .....

Or, we could just let the police make their own decisions about whether or not this is a priority for them. You said that they regularly drive by anyway and I'm sure they've got enough on their plate without climbers phoning them to whine that other climbers might still be climbing.

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 bpmclimb 03 Apr 2020
In reply to Luke90:

> Or, we could just let the police make their own decisions about whether or not this is a priority for them. You said that they regularly drive by anyway and I'm sure they've got enough on their plate without climbers phoning them to whine that other climbers might still be climbing.

Was there really any need to use the word "whine"? I already said that in general I didn't like grassing people up - I'm just concerned at how blatant using this crag is, it's popular, roadside and highly visible to passers-by. All the locals I've spoken to are already tutting about selfish climbers just doing their own thing and not giving a shit. It could easily jeopardise future access, if nothing else.

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 Mark Stevenson 03 Apr 2020
In reply to bpmclimb:

> It could easily jeopardise future access, if nothing else.

Exactly.

The last thing we need in the longer term is the public perception of climbers by local residents (around the Wye Valley or elsewhere) being adversely impacted by a perception that collectively we're not abiding by the spirit of the current lockdown rules.

However, there's the catch 22 in that going to the crag to strip hangers or padlock bolts isn't essential travel either...

 Luke90 03 Apr 2020
In reply to bpmclimb:

I agree that they shouldn't be climbing there and that it's a concern for us as a climbing community, perhaps especially from a PR perspective. I wouldn't describe discussing it on here as "whining" because I think this is an appropriate outlet for such concerns.

Escalating it to the police, who surely have much bigger fish to fry, is where I applied the term. In the sense that it's making more fuss than is sensible or proportionate, in my opinion.

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 jon_gill1 03 Apr 2020
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

If people are ignoring advice they would just happily ab in to put a top rope up, clip stick or similar anyway. The police wont bother with this kind of thing because they’ve got much bigger things to deal with. 

If people judge all climbers based on a selfish few then they are small minded. In fairness it wouldn’t be a bad idea to put up signs as it might even be the case that these climbers don’t know these guidelines are in place. When I started climbing I didn’t even know the BMC existed. Brian only lives 5 minutes away so hardly unnecessary travel, he could walk there for his exercise.

 deepsoup 03 Apr 2020
In reply to nikoid:

> I don't know how you could close the place, I would suggest a sign, but if people are still climbing there at this stage it is probably going to be ignored, unfortunately.

A sign might help with the PR aspect a wee bit at least, in that it might demonstrate to those who don't know any better that the few climbers they see being particularly selfish aren't doing so with the tacit approval of the rest of us.

Post edited at 12:48
 PaulJepson 03 Apr 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

This. 

And perhaps a helpful reminder that any passing police would be within their remit to issue any climbers with a fine. 

Signs also make it easier to 'remind' anyone breaching government & BMC advice that they are being a plonker and to move on, as they have no excuse of ignorance at that point. 

In reply to bpmclimb:

Parking is probably not permitted as the lights have an order associated with them; it has been ignored since they were put in place, despite the risk they pose to cyclists. 

OP Rick Sewards 03 Apr 2020
In reply to bpmclimb:

>  I'm just concerned at how blatant using this crag is, it's popular, roadside and highly visible to passers-by. All the locals I've spoken to are already tutting about selfish climbers just doing their own thing and not giving a shit. It could easily jeopardise future access, if nothing else.

Hi Brian

Thanks very much for raising this.  If there is anyone reading this who is thinking of climbing at Wyndcliff Quarry at the moment, please stop to consider - in addition to the national laws and guidance and the explicit advice from the BMC that we should not be climbing outside at all at the moment - Brian's observations on the impression that climbing in such a public place is making more widely.  I only hinted at it in my original posting, but I know that similar impressions have been created at least once in Woodcroft.

I'll email you separately about what if anything further can or should be done about it.  The BMC generally are not putting signs up at crags - the advice is clear that climbing outside anywhere should be put on hold, so a sign saying effectively "don't climb here because of Coronavirus" runs the risk of implying that if there isn't a sign, it's OK to climb.  I'd also personally be very reluctant to be involving the police for reasons that I'm sure you've also considered. 

One final thing that anyone thinking of visiting Wyndcliff Quarry may not be aware of - if anyone does have an accident there (impossible to rule out, as the new sport-climbing guide makes clear) then your local A&E is the Royal Gwent at Newport, which is dealing with one of the biggest Covid-19 hotspots in the whole country.

Cheers

Rick

 Misha 03 Apr 2020
In reply to bpmclimb:

Even if the police responded, there is probably little they could legally do if the climbers are from the same household (which they might or might not be). They could advise/ask people to stop but I doubt they could legally force them to do so. There is nothing in the relevant Statutory Instrument about what kind of exercise is permitted (it just refers to taking exercise, alone or with other household members). Nor does it say anything about duration or frequency of the exercise or that you are not allowed to walk / drive to your place of exercise - it is silent on the matter and so there is nothing in law to prohibit it.

I suspect the SI was deliberately drafted that way as the government did not want to be too prescriptive when it came to the actual legal enforcement mechanism. The PR message is narrower - one form of local exercise such as a walk, run or cycle. I don't disagree with it but what a lot of people don't realise is that the actual legal provisions are not as narrow.

I'm not saying people should be out climbing (there are good reasons not to as noted above), just pointing out that it is not illegal as such as long as it's done alone or with other household members and therefore there is little to be gained by involving the police. This could be why they are just driving past. I imagine if the place got crowded they would take a different view.

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 Luke90 03 Apr 2020
In reply to Rick Sewards:

> The BMC generally are not putting signs up at crags - the advice is clear that climbing outside anywhere should be put on hold, so a sign saying effectively "don't climb here because of Coronavirus" runs the risk of implying that if there isn't a sign, it's OK to climb.

I can see the concern but I think it could be avoided by wording the sign to make it clear that the BMC advises against climbing at any crag but that this particular crag happens to have a sign because it's been noted that people are using it.

 Xavierpercy 03 Apr 2020
In reply to Misha:

I think that is a fair summary of the position in terms of the law and the police do have a lot of crime and anti-social behaviour to deal with. 
I was at a police station a couple of days ago to represent someone and overheard officers talking about a bloke they were dealing with who had taken his girlfriends car without her permission, he had the driven about 20 miles to buy some beer and then driven a further 15 miles to Bristol. By that time he was over the drink drive limit. He failed to stop for the police and then crashed the car during the pursuit. They decided that they were going to charge him with breaching the Corona Virus Act as well!


Wyndcliffe is popular and gets rammed most weekends and it is sensible to say that we should all stay away. Some people won’t and this obviously causes resentment for the climbers who have decided to make a complete sacrifice of climbing. The climbers who do climb presumably justify what they do and if they are in the same household and have driven a short distance are in my view not doing anything illegal. Going to Portland from Bristol for the day would be a different matter when looking at what is reasonable.

Post edited at 16:36
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 bpmclimb 03 Apr 2020
In reply to Misha:

>  they are just driving past. I imagine if the place got crowded they would take a different view.

Well, that's one of the concerns, of course. So far it's been just two or three climbers, but pretty much every day - if nothing is done to discourage it others are likely to get the idea that it's ok (or that it's not quite ok but they can get away with it).

To all: to clarify, I'm not about to stick my nose in if climbers feel they have to climb, and find somewhere reasonably discreet. But Wyndcliffe Quarry is pretty much the worst crag they could pick, in every way. You should hear some of the things my neighbours are saying about climbers! It probably wouldn't take much by way of local complaints to get the crag permanently banned, I reckon.

 Wise 03 Apr 2020
In reply to bpmclimb:

It's these sort of people that will the crag banned. We all know the risk of injury and using NHS resources is tiny when climbing - it's a perception thing. Nobody wants to go climbing more than me but really you've got to ask yourself whether now is appropriate. 

 The Pylon King 03 Apr 2020
In reply to bpmclimb:

Just slash their tyres.

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 The Pylon King 04 Apr 2020
In reply to The Pylon King:

> Just slash their tyres.


That was a joke btw!

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OP Rick Sewards 23 Apr 2020
In reply to Rick Sewards:

Hi all

Just to reinforce the message from the first posting - please don't under any circumstances climb over the fence to get into the quarry at the moment - there has been at least one instance of this reported to me (and I believe it was climbers doing this).  This could seriously jeopardise access for the future, quite apart from any other considerations.

Thanks very much

Rick 

 bpmclimb 23 Apr 2020
In reply to Rick Sewards:

I'm surprised at that (if it's true), very brazen, very selfish, big middle finger up at the rest of us. I would have thought that those who feel they really must climb could find somewhere a little more discreet.

FWIW I've passed by on long walks a few times, all quiet in Woodcroft and all the bits of Wintour's I could see from the top. I suppose it only takes one or two to ruin access, though.

By the way, Wyndcliffe Quarry seems to have settled right down, no more regular visits going on that I'm aware of, not seen any cars parked behind the cones. I'm not there all the time, of course ....

 Cameron_S 12 May 2020
In reply to Rick Sewards:

With the goverments new guidlines published that we can now have unlimited outside excersie and travel unlimited distance to undertake this. Will the gate code be published anytime soon so we can use Wintour's in the near future?

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 nniff 12 May 2020
In reply to Cameron_S:

> With the goverments new guidlines published that we can now have unlimited outside excersie and travel unlimited distance to undertake this. Will the gate code be published anytime soon so we can use Wintour's in the near future?

But if you cross the Severn Bridge into Wales and look like a climber they'll shoot you.  You have to stay on the English side of the river....

 Xavierpercy 12 May 2020
In reply to nniff:

Dont even think about going to Wyndcliffe Quarry 

OP Rick Sewards 12 May 2020
In reply to Cameron_S:

> With the goverments new guidlines published that we can now have unlimited outside excersie and travel unlimited distance to undertake this. Will the gate code be published anytime soon so we can use Wintour's in the near future?

I'll be posting a update on this and other Wye Valley issues later this evening - I believe there will be a general BMC update later today on the situation in England and Wales (both of which are relevant to this area!) which I'd like to see first before I add specific local advice on the Wye Valley.

Cheers

Rick

 nniff 12 May 2020
In reply to Xavierpercy:

Welsh climbers can of course come to the Avon Gorge or Wintours - all they've got to do is run the gauntlet to get home again.

 fred99 12 May 2020
In reply to nniff:

> Welsh climbers can of course come to the Avon Gorge or Wintours - all they've got to do is run the gauntlet to get home again.


No they can't - local crags for local people.

 Cameron_S 12 May 2020
In reply to nniff:

As I understand it Wintour's Leap is in Gloucestershire, England? So as I won't be coming to Wales I should be ok!

 Cameron_S 12 May 2020
In reply to Xavierpercy:

Completely agree! I'll be waiting for the offical Welsh assembly rules before travelling to any crags in Wales.

 John2 12 May 2020
In reply to Cameron_S:

The point is, if you take the most direct route from the English M4 you pass into Wales and then out of it again.

 MikeSP 12 May 2020
In reply to nniff:

If only there was one kind of way of stopping people as they came over the bridge, like booths with barriers, oh hang on.

OP Rick Sewards 13 May 2020
In reply to Cameron_S:

> Will the gate code be published anytime soon so we can use Wintour's in the near future?

Hi Cameron

The full answer is in this thread here https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/crag_access/wye_valley_-_access_considera...; but briefly, for the time being the gate will remain locked.  However, this doesn't prevent you climbing at Wintour's Leap; it just means a slightly longer approach.  But please read the full advice on my other posting before climbing here or elsewhere in the Wye Valley

Thanks very much

Rick


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