WARNING!! Potential danger at Froggatt ??

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 Olliebradbury 24 Aug 2021

FROGGATT PINNACLE IS MOVING!?!?

IS THIS NORMAL??
 

Today I climbed Valkyrie on the pinnacle at Froggatt (it was my first time)

when belaying my second up it became noticeable that it would seem the entire pinnacle/buttress is wobbling/rocking even under the movement of me just taking in rope.
 

This was then confirmed by my partner, as we could see the water in some small pockets/puddles on top of the pinnacle/buttress moving from side to side with and movements we made. 

Ive spoken with a few other climbers who seem to think this shouldn’t be the case.

just wanted to highlight it on here in case this shouldn’t be happening and incase there is any danger of collapse? 
 

If this is normal for the pinnacle then please ignore this post.  

 McHeath 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Opening popcorn...

9
 Michael Hood 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

1/10, the 1 is for bravado

Post edited at 06:40
16
 Offwidth 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

That would be me at my maximum mass ever descending behind the pinnacle.

2
 Andy Clarke 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

> FROGGATT PINNACLE IS MOVING!?!?

> This was then confirmed by my partner, as we could see the water in some small pockets/puddles on top of the pinnacle/buttress moving from side to side with and movements we made.

This is why you should never climb grit until it's properly dry.

6
 profitofdoom 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Please don't have too many beers before climbing. I had a right session in Clifton in Bristol a few years ago, and the whole world was wobbling. Then it keeled over and my cheek was on the floor

9
 DerwentDiluted 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

It needs an assessment from some well qualified chequers.

3
 compost 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Ah, some clever responses to show that you're not in their tribe. Nice.

Dear all,

This looks to me like a genuine enquiry with a genuine concern. Is it not easier just to help? 

4
 McHeath 25 Aug 2021
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Nothing to worry about, the danger of it actually collapsing is probably my newt. 

5
In reply to compost:

> Ah, some clever responses to show that you're not in their tribe. Nice.

> Dear all,

> This looks to me like a genuine enquiry with a genuine concern. Is it not easier just to help? 

No mention of anything in the Log Books. Perhaps they imagined it?

2
 profitofdoom 25 Aug 2021
In reply to compost:

> Ah, some clever responses to show that you're not in their tribe. Nice. > Dear all, > This looks to me like a genuine enquiry with a genuine concern. Is it not easier just to help? 

Anyone, but anyone, would know that the slight movement of a person taking in rope (as the OP reported) could not possibly move a pinnacle weighing (how much? How much does F. Pinnacle weigh? Hundreds of tons? That, at least, is an interesting question). IMO 

10
 Shani 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

In light of this news i think Valkyrie should be upgraded from HVS, but E1 seems too big a jump.

Can anyone suggest a happy middle ground between HVS and E1?

3
OP Olliebradbury 25 Aug 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

This is why it seemed so worrying that the movement of me moving back and forth pulling rope though on guide mode was causing movement.

I think it’s the top section of the pinnacle and for all I know it’s always done it, I’ve just not been up there before to know and is why I’m asking on here if anyone else has experienced this at Froggatt before.
 

I’m purely looking out for the safety of others. Because as you said it probably weighs hundreds of tons and if it did fall would flatten someone! 
 

I have added it to my logbook as mentioned earlier by someone and I will report to the BMC too.

it’s very likely I’m being overly cautious but other people have told me it shouldn’t be moving so thought best to mention it. 

3
 Andypeak 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

I remember a few years ago someone on here said that a chick stone on a well used descent route at Stanage was loose and dangerous. Loads of people joked, said he was talking rubbish and it had always been like that. A few days later someone from the BMC went and had a look and it fell out with the smallest of touches.

I've been on the pinical many times and never experienced any movement. Thanks for the heads up. 

 McHeath 25 Aug 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

The 1978 guide gives a height of 55 feet and a base of 20 feet square, and googling the average density of gritstone gave 2.85 g/cm³. So a geometrically perfect Pinnacle would weigh in at around 1750 tonnes; even after subtracting a lot for roundness and tapering we'd still be looking at over 1000 tonnes.

Unless it's hollow of course  

Post edited at 10:30
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 Fredt 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Oddly, I’m reminded of the time (many years ago) after we’d topped out, my partner felt the earth move on top of the pinnacle.

1
 Lankyman 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Andypeak:

> someone on here said that a chick stone on a well used descent route at Stanage was loose and dangerous

That's over-egging it a bit

1
 Dan Arkle 25 Aug 2021
In reply to McHeath:

It would only be the top third, thich is clearly a seperate bit of rock with a deep horizontal crack around around it.

Its unlikely, but possible.

 Andy Clarke 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> That's over-egging it a bit

What a cheep shot.

 Andypeak 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

Sometimes I hate auto correct.

 planetmarshall 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Andypeak:

> I remember a few years ago someone on here said that a chick stone on a well used descent route at Stanage was loose and dangerous.

I believe the politically correct term is person stone.

3
 Cobra_Head 25 Aug 2021
In reply to planetmarshall:

> I believe the politically correct term is person stone.


a they stone?

2
 WaterMonkey 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> 1/10, the 1 is for bravado

I'm sure your help on this climbing forum is appreciated.

5
 Howard J 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Rocking stones or logan stones are a well-known phenomenon, and some can be pretty large. Is it not possible that the pinnacle has eroded so that part of it has now become unbalanced? 

 Michael Hood 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Shani:

> In light of this news i think Valkyrie should be upgraded from HVS, but E1 seems too big a jump.

> Can anyone suggest a happy middle ground between HVS and E1?

Is there perhaps a local precedent?

1
 Michael Hood 25 Aug 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

Well on the face of it this looks like a rather too obvious troll.

If it really is genuine then:

  1. It's rather shocking and worrying
  2. I'll be quite happy to apologise
10
 Shani 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Is there perhaps a local precedent?

I think there's two at Froggatt! There's a route called Three Pebble Slab that is too serious to be HVS. There's also a route called Three Pebble Slab that is too easy to be E1.

The UKC massive will probably know a bit more about these routes.

 Michael Hood 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Shani:

I always thought it was HVS if you didn't accidentally kick the last gear out of the pocket but E1 if you did 😨

2
 Cobra_Head 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

WARNING!! Potential danger at Froggatt ??

There's pylon down.

1
 jkarran 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

It's quite possible something has eroded or tilted, the whole edge will move down the hill over time albeit in fits and starts. There's a very large perched block at Brimham that is basically bi-stable, quite a subtle additional force will set it over a few degrees then, thankfully, it stops!

On the other hand it'd be a good old school wind up so I can understand the sceptiscism.

Jk

Post edited at 18:42
 Philip 25 Aug 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> I always thought it was HVS if you didn't accidentally kick the last gear out of the pocket but E1 if you did 😨

I thought it was E1 if your first XS route and HVS once you'd mastered E2 🤣

In reply to Michael Hood:

> I always thought it was HVS if you didn't accidentally kick the last gear out of the pocket but E1 if you did 😨

Easy V1, but some say V0+

 PaulJepson 26 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Thank God I climbed it before this lie happened. 

10
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Has no one repeated it since Tuesday?

 spenser 26 Aug 2021
In reply to Shani:

TPS, just give Three Pebble Slab a grade of its own and dump other oddities in there! 

 Shani 26 Aug 2021
In reply to spenser:

> TPS, just give Three Pebble Slab a grade of its own and dump other oddities in there! 

This would annoy those that think Three Pebble Slab is HVS and those who think it should be E1.

You should never annoy this demographic because they have a very particular set of skills. Skills they have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make them a nightmare for people like you. If you let this grade-discussion go now that'll be the end of it. They will not look for you, they will not pursue you, but if you don't, they will look for you, they will find you and they will kill you through a tedious rant about E0.

1
 alex505c 27 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

On the plus side, I now have a good excuse for not returning to send this, having previously dogged it pathetically only to declare afterward that I definitely *could* send it now that I know the sequences.

 PaulJepson 27 Aug 2021
In reply to alex505c:

With McHeath's above conservative estimate of 1000 tonnes, you'll need some financial support to send it anywhere. Royal Mail will only carry up to 30kg. 

3
OP Olliebradbury 28 Aug 2021
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Well the idiots attempting to trolling me in this thread either don’t possess the ability to climb it to confirm what I’ve explained. Or are too worried to leave the safety of their keyboard and repeat the route incase they have to swallow their own pride and apologise for calling me a liar.

Those who are sensible and do have the ability to climb this route  and confirm what I have described, probably don’t want to say anything publicly on here due to fear of being trolled by the same sad idiots 

Post edited at 07:38
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 Offwidth 28 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Don't worry, aside from some well intentioned joking, someone will be having a serious look at this. There is a massive block that moves at Brimham (where I also got diet jokes).

Post edited at 08:00
 profitofdoom 28 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

> Well the idiots attempting to trolling me in this thread....... fear of being trolled by the same sad idiots 

OK. You reported that the "entire pinnacle" was wobbling or rocking as you brought your second up. Were you yourself then on the first belay, or on top of the pinnacle? Have you reported it to the BMC yet as you said you would? If so, how did they respond?

I have been on top of the pinnacle, though years ago. I noticed no movement at that time. 

Other climbers must have been on top of the pinnacle recently. It will be very helpful if they report if the pinnacle wobbled or rocked while they were on it (though possibly if they experienced no wobbling or rocking, they will not report anything. But in the circumstances, it will be very helpful if they do report either way)

10
OP Olliebradbury 28 Aug 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

I lead the route as a single pitch, so belayed at the top. This is where I could feel the movement and my second could also, once he had topped out.

It makes sense that it’s not the entire pinnacle, but the top section moving. I will add it’s not a drastic amount of movement, however if it never used to move and now is, I guess it’s just something to keep an eye on and that is all I’ve really been suggesting, incase it progresses and gets worse. 

I was unsure of the correct means to report to the BMC but I did report through the Regional Access Database but haven’t had a response yet. If this is not the correct procedure please let me know what is, and I will happily report again. 

2
 JimR 28 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

What weight are you? Maybe if you are 40 stone or so that could account for movement which is not detected by lesser mortals

20
 gethin_allen 28 Aug 2021
In reply to JimR:

> What weight are you? Maybe if you are 40 stone or so that could account for movement which is not detected by lesser mortals


If he is 40 stone and still leading HVS then I'd bet that he wasn't mortal.

1
In reply to Olliebradbury:

> Well the idiots attempting to trolling me in this thread either don’t possess the ability to climb it to confirm what I’ve explained. Or are too worried to leave the safety of their keyboard and repeat the route incase they have to swallow their own pride and apologise for calling me a liar.

> Those who are sensible and do have the ability to climb this route  and confirm what I have described, probably don’t want to say anything publicly on here due to fear of being trolled by the same sad idiots 


I think your original comment that the 'entire pinnacle' was moving conjured up images of a Leaning Tower of Pisa type scenario (but with rocking) which seemed unlikely. Whereas subsequent descriptions suggest maybe a layer of rock at the top may be moving.

14
 deepsoup 28 Aug 2021
In reply to thread:
Whether he's mistaken or not, the OP is clearly in earnest and not trolling so it'd be nice if we stopped taking the piss now.

1
In reply to deepsoup:

Well it's Saturday and not raining so surely some ascents today?

 Sam W 28 Aug 2021
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

We were at Froggatt today and spoke to a team that had just come down from Valkyrie. They hadn't seen this thread, so weren't looking for wobbling, but they said that everything seemed stable.

To slightly muddy the waters, they did say there were some blocks at the bottom of the abseil which looked like they had recently broken.

Summary is that there didn't seem to be any particular risk of imminent rockfall around the route.

 DerwentDiluted 28 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

I hope it is a well intentioned false alarm. I'd hate to have to use my 'Slide of the Valkyrie' pun so soon.

 Shani 28 Aug 2021
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

> I hope it is a well intentioned false alarm. I'd hate to have to use my 'Slide of the Valkyrie' pun so soon.

Premature use of a valkyrie pun can prove to be very hawkward indeed.

 profitofdoom 28 Aug 2021
In reply to Shani:

> Premature use of a valkyrie pun can prove to be very hawkward indeed.

Don't be Heartless - look on the Brightside - it's a tough Nut to crack

1
 Michael Hood 28 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Well as I previously posted, I'm quite happy to say sorry to you for taking what now obviously was a serious post as a troll.

I understand how frustrating it must have been for you trying to get this taken seriously, but that doesn't make us all idiots.

Having done Valkyrie more than once (but not recently) and having never heard of any inkling of instability, it just seemed a bit unbelievable; now, it's shocking. Valkyrie has been one of the iconic Peak district routes for over half a century (even before Hard Rock was published), so the thought that it might be seriously affected is not easy to contemplate.

Did you notice the movement all over the top or just in one area? IIRC there are some cracks across the top and I wonder if it's maybe only part of the top down to the first significant (nearly) horizontal bedding plane which from photos looks like it's a couple of feet down.

Post edited at 21:46
5
 C Witter 28 Aug 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> Whether he's mistaken or not, the OP is clearly in earnest and not trolling so it'd be nice if we stopped taking the piss now.

If we're not allowed to take the piss out of each other any more... then what is the point of UKC forums? Or climbing? Or other people? 

You've induced a severe existential crisis...

Please be careful next time, before doing anything as wildly irresponsible as suggesting we... be nice to each other...!? Ooof... even the thought of all that well-intentioned politeness makes me queasy!

5
 Michael Hood 28 Aug 2021
In reply to C Witter:

I apologise for my previous post.

Oops, that's making it worse 😁 - just pretend this and my previous post haven't happened.

2
 Wire Shark 29 Aug 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> If we're not allowed to take the piss out of each other any more... then what is the point of UKC forums? Or climbing? Or other people? 

Taking the piss out of people you know well and who understand where you're coming from is one thing, taking the piss out of a stranger who you don't know and have never met is another.  When pretty much the first dozen or so responses to a clearly genuine post are piss-takes and people trying to be "funny" (and save us from the or so "hilarious" puns) then no wonder the set of contributors to these forums are dwindling so much.  It's not an especially nice or welcoming community is it?  It's just tedious.

[Edit] As a general aside, how annoying is it when you're at a crag and a bunch of dudes arrive hellbent on taking the piss (usually loudly) out of each other?  It usually males of "a certain age" I find.  Here's a thought - others probably don't want to hear it.

Post edited at 03:21
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 Offwidth 29 Aug 2021
In reply to Wire Shark:

Life would be pretty tedious without humour and climbers have always had a special angle on that which is usually well intentioned. What is tedious in posting style is when some regular posters can't resist questioning the motives (or taking the piss) of posts on the beginner forum.

2
 Michael Hood 29 Aug 2021
In reply to Wire Shark:

It only became obvious that it was "a clearly genuine post" after the OP returned to the thread by which time several of us had jumped the wrong way.

And by then of course there were some of the usual branches that occur on threads, especially when TPS comes into play.

Post edited at 07:36
4
 Lankyman 29 Aug 2021
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

> I hope it is a well intentioned false alarm. I'd hate to have to use my 'Slide of the Valkyrie' pun so soon.

Well, I for one felt we were being taken for a ride

3
 C Witter 29 Aug 2021
In reply to Wire Shark:

Don't be so earnest, you'll sprain something.

18
 Wire Shark 30 Aug 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> Don't be so earnest, you'll sprain something.

Ah the old "can't you take a joke" defence - well done you.  

2
 C Witter 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Wire Shark:

No, it was the "W B Yeats counter-attack" I was playing, actually! Given all the injustices in the world, you getting angry over people making harmless puns in an internet forum was not particularly putting me on the backfoot.

6
 Andy Clarke 31 Aug 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> No, it was the "W B Yeats counter-attack" I was playing, actually! Given all the injustices in the world, you getting angry over people making harmless puns in an internet forum was not particularly putting me on the backfoot.

If the Pinnacle's twenty centuries of stony sleep are over and it's now become a rocking cradle I think we should be very worried indeed.

 toad 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

I seem to remember a story from the 80s. Maybe a climbing mag, about someone who thought they had knocked Napes Needle over, but it was just a dental anaesthetic dream when they pulled his tooth out

 Dave Garnett 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> If the Pinnacle's twenty centuries of stony sleep are over and it's now become a rocking cradle I think we should be very worried indeed.

Of course, we do all tend to use the 'it's been there for thousands of years, it's not going to fall down /break off/pull out today' line of argument when we're about climb on it.    

Presumably that's what this poor guy thought on 4 June 1994...

6.20 pm:  Rockclimbing, Central Buttress, Scafell.  A 20 year-old competent climber was ascending the Flake Crack.  He placed a runner on the chockstone and continued almost to the top of the flake before slipping and falling onto the runner, finishing up on the Oval.  Unfortunately the chockstone pulled out and hit the climber causing fatal injuries.  Casualty and companion evacuated from the crag by the team and transported to Wasdale Head by RAF Boulmer.  A tragic entry in the history of Central Buttress.  

They're all solid and safe, until they aren't.

 profitofdoom 05 Sep 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> Don't worry, aside from some well intentioned joking, someone will be having a serious look at this......

Has no-one checked Froggatt Pinnacle out yet for rocking and moving?? I'm [1] a long way away, and [2] not very well

Thanks for reporting, anyone who does / can

 Andy Clarke 05 Sep 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

A worthy of this parish has added some beta. I'll call him Ishmael. There are some detailed notes on recent ascents/pump-outs, but none mention any movement.

 Ian Parsons 05 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> A worthy of this parish has added some beta. I'll call him Ishmael.

Indeed so. I wonder whether he's confusing 'pinnacle' with 'binnacle' - possibly for comic effect?

 profitofdoom 05 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> A worthy of this parish has added some beta. I'll call him Ishmael. There are some detailed notes on recent ascents/pump-outs, but none mention any movement.

I know, thanks, I saw the beta on UKC added for Valkyrie (HVS 5a) on 25 August

 Tom Redwood 05 Sep 2021
In reply to Olliebradbury:

Climbed Valkyrie today and can confirm the top of the pinnacle does rock, just a tiny bit, and it took both of us to do it, which we soon nervously stopped. Looking at it I doubt there's any imminent danger as none of the top cracks (not sure which moves) has much of a slant, but worth a professional checking out.

 compost 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Tom Redwood:

Thanks for reporting back - definitely one to keep an eye on!


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