UKH

Has anyone been up to Levers Water, Coniston, recently? I've just seen that they've plastered Levers Water with at least 6 large red and white plastic "No Swimming, Deep Water" signs. They've not only attached these to the artifical sluice but also drilled, screwed and locktited them to boulders around the tarn and, in fact, they've even gone to the length of fixing them to boulders in the water itself.

It's deeply obnoxious vandalism and an eye sore, in my view. I went up on a lugubrious day and looking out across the tarn toward Little How and Great How through the mist, I just kept being drawn to the officious BS in white and red. Other people have obviously felt similarly offended as the signs have been damaged and people have obviously had an unsuccessful go at removing them.

Anyone have any idea about how to get United Utilities to desist from vandalising these special places with pointless and patronising signage?

Same everywhere. The lunatics and thought police are running the LD asylum.

DC

Well, don't go swimming; obviously.

More seriously, it's a reflection of the idiocy of two Covid summers and the willingness of said idiots to find someone else to blame if their own stupidity gets them into difficulties.  Beyond reopening the package holiday market and getting rid of the pandemic, I suspect there's little to be done.

For all that though, I'm in complete agreement with you about such signs being out of place in a mountain tarn.

T.

..but if it saves just one life?

If noone was allowed in the national parks at all to climb or hillwalk or whatever then quite a few lives would be "saved" every year.

As far as I'm aware, no one has drowned in Levers Water... but are you seriously proposi g that every body of water deep enough for someone to drown in should have signage just in case someone does drown?

There's no more need for signs here than anywhere and everywhere else.

No I was being obtuse, happily. 

Technically speaking Levers Water is a reservoir and placing notices about the dangers of swimming in reservoirs is fairly common practice.

No one complains about the notices at various Peak District reservoirs, for example.

I was concerned that the mass swim at kinder res. were quoting a right of navigation as a right to swim in reservoirs. I think even the most gung ho paddler would struggle to claim a drinking water reservoir as a historic navigation. 

There's a sign near me at Dungeness stating Danger deep water.

The deep water being, The English Channel. 🙄

Sounds like you're implying that people who normally holiday in Benidorm are better off keeping away from our hills.

its not the depth that's the issue, its the way the water is extracted from them which causes currents. these can then drag people downwards hence why lots of utility owned lakes have these types of signs because they are significantly more dangerous than normal lake.

I concur with that. Also much better for the rest of us. See also, Loch Morlich summer shanty town.

Some might say that attitudes like yours present a barrier which stops a certain demographic enjoying the hills .

What are you even going on about? What is your actual point? Do you have one, or are you just been contrarian? A lowland reservoir is not the same as a mountain tarn within a protected fell area. And even on reservoirs there are not always or often so many ostentatious signs. What kind of psychophant are you that you want to side with United Utilities littering a mountain tarn in one of our few areas of open space set aside for "nature" with 6 or more enormous plastic  signs, and for no purpose, at that, save to explain that it is possible to drown in water?

The sign literally says: "No Swimming, Deep Water" and that's not even how water is extracted at Levers Water. Please keep your tedious pretend "knowledge" to yourself.

Especially so.....

https://nearherewayaway.com/2020/11/03/coniston-copper-mines-bomb/

I have been to see the plug pre bomb.....

I spend most of my walking time in the Peak District, which has an abundance of reservoirs. It's just not at all noteworthy to see warning signs on reservoirs in the PDNP and no one gets het up about it. 

Maybe you don't consider the Peak District to be  a real mountain environment and that the Lakes are in some way different?

I see. Well, if you spent most of your time walking in the fells you might get het up about someone vandalising it with enormous signs, some of which are screwed into drilled holes in large erratic boulders. But, the Peak has already been ruined, so I can understand your apathy.

We used to swim in that reservoir above Glossop golf course next to the Snake.

When we found out that various human body parts had been disposed of in it, it put us off for a while.

As for these no swimming signs, is it more of a case they don't want people pissing and shiting in the drinking water?

Chris calm down, you sound like a Left Wing Rees-Mogg. A lugubrious day, seriously? You need to come climbing with the Franks Wednesday Climbing Club again.

Replying to your edit, to be honest I don't consider the Lake District a "real mountain environment" - I was just trying to use a common language - and the term "nature" is so fraught. But I have spent a lot of time there and it feels like home. The fells have a very special character that is unique - different even to the hills of Eryri. It feels like a personal assault to have someone plaster it with these signs.

The Peak and the Yorkshire and Derbyshire moors are special in their way, but they bear the signs of urbanisation,  industry and touristic overuse much more clearly, for the most part. They're not the fells, sorry.

It’s an unfortunate consequence of an increasingly litigious society, lawyers and “duty of care”. If people are so concerned over a couple of small stakes at Rhoscollyn then these signs may be short lived?

Touristic overuse? At a time when we are supposed to be pulling down barriers which put people off from enjoying the outdoors? 

Well I guess that the Peak District and the Dales had better keep on welcoming new visitors , whether it's BAME  hikers or the package holiday crowd and leave the fells to real walkers and climbers to enjoy without the taint of  excessive popularity.

It does seem to be pushing Dr Caffyns work to the limits and then going back for round 2.

That said given the "wild" swimmers are increasing in number and loudness I am not sure it would hurt them joining in. Lets face it the lets negotiate access approach hasnt exactly been successful to date.

I think it's Summo, who maybe along shortly, who will put you right about how 'Natural' The Lakes are!

Are you shitting me, Steve? Practically half the posts on the forums are complaining about bolting, chalk being an eyesore or littering; one of the leading UKC news stories at the moment is about some people using chalk to mark out a race, and yet UU - who are generally assholes responsible for under investment and leaking sewage into our watercourses - vomit signs all over a Lakeland combe and all I'm getting is indifference... the mind boggles. I give up!

Alas, Chris, I'm afraid this battle was lost long ago. There's nothing the English like more than a surfeit of signs, preferably forbidding people to do something. Their love of signs is on a par with Berliners' love of admonishing strangers.

Just be grateful these signs aren't headed "POLITE NOTICE".

(there is occasionally reason for hope: some years ago one town in England had a brief lapse into sanity: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-42193092)

Can't fault that

Many drinking water sources are downstream of a sewage works outfall

I suppose it's one of those things where you can't make a judgement till youve seen it. 

The bolted signs sound like overkill but a simple notice on a pole in the tarn wouldn't be too obtrusive and might absolve UU of any liability in the event of someone misjudging their abilities.

As a final contrarian gesture    could I point out to you that Chew Reservoir in the Peak, one of my favourite stamping grounds, is substantially more elevated than the tarn in question and therefore has more bragging rights as a mountain stretch of water than Levers Water.....   

To be fair, the Lakes has been ‘ruined’ to very much the same extent too. If you think the numerous reservoirs and barren treeless landscape are somehow more in tune with nature than that offered by the Peak then you’re incredibly wrong.

If the certain demographic can be characterised by littering, loutish drunken behaviour, vandalism and general anti social behaviour then I'm fine with my attitude. There are places I love but which I avoid at certain times of year because of this. Call me old fashioned but respect for the environment and one's fellow mountaineers/walkers/campers/etc was the bedrock of outdoor culture.

Shit gets into reservoirs one way or another. It's filtered out by the time it comes out your tap.

The signs are almost certainly the result of an increase in 'irresponsible use' over the lockdown. During a lockdown a young lad drowned in a shallow reservoir in the Pentlands near Edinburgh. Late evening, cheap rubber dinghy, booze. Tragic. Most of us have done it and most of us have got away with it. I'm not convinced signs are the answer, and I concur with the OP's grievance.

You asked what you can do.
Firstly are you prepared to spend the next 6 months to 5 years in a dialogue with UU? Because thats what you are looking at in dealing with UU, and no guarantee of the outcome you want.

Secondly, you need to find out why the signs are there, there could be many reasons;

• Save lives. Possibly someone drowned somewhere and the signs are the fruits of someones relatives campaign to get signs put up. 
• Stop pollution. Do you think that having polluted water is better than having the signs.
• It could be an attempt by UU to defend themselves against potential litigation in the future, from claims for pollution or drowning.
• It could be someone in UUs friend who makes the signs or puts them up, and its all a fiddle.
• It may be some legislation and they have to put the signs up.
• Could be other reasons.

As to the Highland Kings, I have been chuckling at that. 

• Are people bothered about chalking killing Lichen in an SSSI, if so report to Natural England. Posting on Social Media will have less impact than making a formal complaint to the responsible body, and pushing them to act.
• Are people really upset about 40 people who can afford £15K to spend 7 months to have a 5 star experience leading to a highpoint in their lives
• Are people really upset that a few people are going to make a shed load of money.

You don’t actually mean enjoying the hills, what you mean is, moorland barbecue fires, litter, damage, erosion, abandoned camping gear, sheep worrying, mountain rescues etc. etc.. The countryside is a very vulnerable eco system, which can be irreparably damaged. Some of the stuff posted is akin to social engineering as people who have no understanding or desire to visit the great outdoors are implored to overcome barriers to entry, which incidentally don’t exist and suddenly adopt a love for a totally alien environment which they have no interest in. I live in the Peak and currently the damage to many areas including SSSI,s is sickening. Oh and by the way wasn’t a climber on Bamford, which is currently a microcosm for all that is wrong, struck by a rock thrown down from above by someone out enjoying the countryside.

Careful, now.

Not seen them yet. What would be needed to successfully remove them?

4 dislikes. Jesus. What has become of the culture of the great outdoors?

You are correct there are no barriers, (though there may well be perceived barriers); I was from one of 'those' backgrounds and got introduced and accepted without any trouble, though I had been brought up to respect wilderness, countryside and the people who live there. Christ I must be getting old.

There was an absolute scumbag whom I met on a construction site a few years ago, of the sort who doesn't understand that not everyone else is a scumbag. When I said I liked going to the hills he told me a story about how he and his mates loved the highlands, went fishing without a permit, got a massive cheap tent which they abandoned along with their barbecues and empty Buckie bottles, shot at sheep with an airgun then set a wheelie bin on fire at a remote cottage. "F*ckin' brilliant weekend so it was."

Until c*nts like that change their behaviour I don't want them in the hills, and aside from a very small number of pub owners, neither do local residents.

edited for the additional dislike.

I've said before - I wonder if signs that misrepresent the danger are even part of the problem rather than a poor answer.

Cold water doesn't kill - being unused to cold water kills, and being drunk kills.  

When it comes to cold water, education is better than prohibition IMO, not least as people will often see other folk swimming and decide to do the same, unaware that the others are used to the cold water.  A sign simply claiming swimming to be dangerous is easily ignored by many when they see others at it.  There's a tragic example not far from us from the lockdown period of this, and it's one of many nationwide.

• I would far rather see suitable reservoirs support swimming by having managed swimming areas, where people can come to learn about swimming in cold water, with enthusiastic clubs providing support and a modicum of common sense for people.
• Failing that, at least making sure the signs clearly explain the risks of cold water and note that if you see other swimmers, they may be more practiced than you, and that novices must stay in their depth and go in pairs.  Of course, to do this would be to permit swimming, which they won't do, so advice that might moderate someone and help them learn (not die) from their mistakes isn't given. 

When it comes to being drunk (IIRC a viable fraction of inland water deaths are alcohol related) a sign just ins't going to make any difference to the outcome IMO, certainly nothing short a sign saying "Don't drink and drown" with some statistics on it.   Other than explicitly removing all landowner liability for drunk drownings I don't know what to suggest - perhaps control orders prohibiting alcohol in honeypot locations with enforcement in peak season. 

Perhaps sticking a bunch of signs up helps a landowner to show that they've taken reasonable steps to protect the public from their asset should it come to court, otherwise they serve no practical purpose I can see.  Then again, where I am we have signs anywhere near overhead cables on our PRoWs warning people not to carry tall objects because someone once electrocuted themselves by practicing their fly casting on a footpath under some high tension lines.  

As covered on previous threads, reservoirs have unique hazards including outlets and low-buoyancy areas due to oxygenation schemes.  This doesn't preclude having a separated off (floating buoy rope) swimming area, but it does give more reason to prevent people swimming elsewhere.  

I doubt that anyone welcomes this sort of behaviour in the hills but assuming that people who take package holidays are the cause of the problem is not really sound thinking. The whole "Thank God Benidorm is open again because it keeps the riff raff out of our hills" is becoming a bit  worn out.

It is a sweeping generalisation but Benidorm is as good a motif for drunken rabble zoo behaviour as any. I don't know what it was like south of the border or in The Lakes but in the Highlands the last two summers saw a massive increase in 'dirty campers.' I suspect the equivalence of this with the absence of package holidays to certain destinations has more than a ring of truth. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

What was the tag line for Bluebird bitter? "Beer with a bit of body in it"?  Think they're trying to prevent that also applying to the water supply.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/young-...

Consider also the signs in church beck downstream warning about sudden releases from the reservoir upstream (e.g. if the operations staff test the sluice valves.)  Or should the ghyll scramblers know about the dangers of sudden floods on dry days without signage?

Levers water is an active res. The abstraction pipework is submerged and within a short swim of the edge.  Besides generic cold water dangers, there are underwater currents around this pipework.  The pipework has a few hundred meters to fall steeply from there so I imagine if you covered that pipework with your person, you could also be fighting a hell of a suction force.  In a dry weather period, I've seen the intake a few feet below the surface, not even a swim away, just a paddle.

UU website probably gives a method to complain directly if you'd like to rather than shouting into the void.  Before you do, might be worth reading the blurb on safety signs and signals regulation 1996. Putting aside the public aspects, this is an operational site where UU send their staff and contractors, which brings an obligation for hazard warnings (even if the dangers are bleeding obvious).

Check this out:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/149697661722190

I would happily stop some demographics from enjoying the hills.

Do you get this irate about the ecological destruction UUs land "management" has bestowed on your precious Lakes*? A few plastic signs are a drop in the ocean.

*other upland environments available, all ecological disasters, most with fewer people, which you seem to value. 

And the lakes doesn't?? Think you need to remove the rose tinted glasses. They're no more special than any other UK upland area, they're just special to you because you have spent so much time there. Not a bad thing, just something you need to acknowledge as part of this discussion IMO.

So rather than "No Swimming, Deep Water" the signs should say "No Swimming, Risk of Suction"? Or would that attract a different wrong crowd?

No.  What I'm saying is that behaviour in the Lake District in two Covid summers has been far from exemplary, that many of those people won't know, or will choose to ignore, codes of behaviour that regular hill goers accept as the right way to behave in the country's wild places and finally, that many of those people would normally have spent their leave time on a package holiday rather than in the Lake District.

I had thought all that implicitly obvious, which is why I didn't spell it out.

T.

I was baffled at that argument too.  The original post juxtaposes the word tarn with the admission of artificial spillway.  There's also a great big dam. These signs of urbanisation are positioned just uphill of the vast coppermines spoil heaps and great big (active?) quarry.  One of the levels pokes out just to the left of the reservoir - the specs hes viewing Great and Little How through must be blinkered as well as rose tinted.   Some parts of the lakes are relatively unspoiled.  This area is not a good example.

Fair, when I saw them, I also thought bolting signs to the boulders, size, numbers of, etc was tasteless, but walking along the shore and finding remnants of charred posts in campfire remains gave me an indicator to the logic.

In reply to felt: 

Gave me a chuckle, thanks!

You are aware of people drowning in lake's lakes not so long ago, non swimmers wading out and suddenly it drops off much deeper, some people need protecting from themselves. 

In reply to my own post. In truth I wouldn't really ban anyone from enjoying the hills but there is plenty whom I wouldn't encourage

I sometimes wonder if the purpose of such signs is to exonerate the owner from liability if an accident occurs rather than actually forbidding such activities?

Thanks for spelling it out. 

It reads like

People who would normally have spent their holidays in Benidorm and the like have been spending their time in the Lakes instead and a lot of poor behaviour has been going during the same period. so it's most likely the fault of the package tour types who don't know how to behave in the hills.

"Sounds like you're implying that people who normally holiday in Benidorm are better off keeping away from our hills."

I hope he wasn't implying that. I hope he was stating something obvious. Keepin the more people away from the hills the better. I have yet to see a natural place improved by man and even a very un natural place like the Lakes is better without as many people as possible. 

Did you make a similar contribution to the Kinder in Colour thread?  I can't imagine that it would have gone down too well.

( I actually share some of your sentiments but it does come across as a bit selfish)