Roaches: Ignorance of BMC group top rope reccomendations

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 smithaldo 09 May 2016
Does anyone know the scope of BMC group use reccomendations and whether it applies/is given out to scout groups?

There was pretty shoddy behaviour at the roaches yesterday, with a top rope on obsession fatale and piece of mind most of the day

I don't usually get involved but when a gang of about 10 14-18 year olds eventually started on it I did point out to their leader, politley, that BMC group usage recs and the guidebook said they shouldnt really be toproping classic friction based E8's in summer, on tight ropes with kids scrabbling up and slipping all over it.

The response was ' who are you to tell me we are not good enough to climb it?' I looked up at the lad on it as pertinently he was scrabbling around and said that they clearly weren't good enough, but that wasnt my point, it was that the BMC really discourage it and as a leader of climbing groups he should really know that.

The guy just ignored me and let loads of other kids up it which was pretty disappointing.

Should there be more awareness for scout leaders? Im assuming one of them would have SPA as there were a few mulling about?

I'm not totally against top roping at all but this was for me a really obvious thing not to do?
 Andy Say 09 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

> Does anyone know the scope of BMC group use reccomendations and whether it applies/is given out to scout groups?
They are 'recommendations' and not necessarily given out to group leaders

> There was pretty shoddy behaviour at the roaches yesterday, with a top rope on obsession fatale and piece of mind most of the day

If they were the routes in question then the motivation of the session was obviously to convince the scouts how crap they were at climbing and how god-like were the leaders.

> Should there be more awareness for scout leaders? Im assuming one of them would have SPA as there were a few mulling about?

The scouts have their own permit scheme. It may well have been the case that it was an SPA holder that issued permits to people who hadn't been through that award.

Any idea where they were from? An email to the county commissioner might be appropriate.
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 Babika 09 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:
> Should there be more awareness for scout leaders?

Its really disappointing that this sort of thing goes on - but are you 100% sure it was Scouts?
I would hate to see them tarred if it was another youth group or commercial group.


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 Owen W-G 09 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

Recommendations are exactly what they say on the tin. There is no law against TR-ing hard grit, competent at that technicality or otherwise, and presumably there weren't queues of aspiring leaders waiting to give it a go. SPA-qualifications presumably don't forbid that sort of thing.
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 climbwhenready 09 May 2016
In reply to Andy Say:

> They are 'recommendations' and not necessarily given out to group leaders

This is true, but it is the relevant ethics code for climbing. Other recommendations regarding the outdoors include "Don't drop litter", "Don't climb fences (*)", "Leave all gates as you find them." Stuff which I was taught when I was in scouts all those years ago, and it's pretty appalling to have group leaders ignoring outdoor codes.


(*) insert land-has-a-right-of-access-but-landowner-has-put-up-taking-the-piss-fences caveat here
 WaterMonkey 09 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

Looking at the public logbooks for those climbs, top roping is by far and away the most common style. Unless top roping is banned for climbs that aren't protectable you're always going to get people scrabbling around I suspect.
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 Ramblin dave 09 May 2016
In reply to Owen W-G:
> There is no law against TR-ing hard grit, competent at that technicality or otherwise

There's no law against dry-tooling it either. But we generally expect people leading groups in the outdoors to show a bit of social responsibility above and beyond the minimum that's legally required of them.

Edit: or anyone else, come to that: there's nothing particularly special about people leading groups.
Post edited at 15:01
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Removed User 09 May 2016
In reply to Steve-J-E:

There's a -huge- difference between climbers trying routes or working moves and group leaders taking a bunch of kids in trainers onto very difficult friction based routes. Don't be obtuse.
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 WaterMonkey 09 May 2016
In reply to Removed User:

> There's a -huge- difference between climbers trying routes or working moves and group leaders taking a bunch of kids in trainers onto very difficult friction based routes. Don't be obtuse.

Sorry for being obtuse but could you point out where it said they were wearing trainers please.
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OP smithaldo 09 May 2016
In reply to Steve-J-E:

they werent climbing in trainers but were definitley not climbing 6b/c moves.

They were definitiley scouts, one of the leader/sub-leader types had a t-shirt with carry on and be a scout, or some such slogan about scouting and a few of the kids had scouting stuff on their clothes.
 WaterMonkey 09 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

Sounds like you did the right thing and if they really were struggling that much I don't understand why they'd want to top rope them climbs. Surely give them something easier that they could do clean and get a feeling of satisfaction at the top.

 Offwidth 09 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

The BMC green guide contains the relevant group advice.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/green-guide-to-the-uplands

The behaviour you describe would be a clear ethical breach but the group may not be aware of that. Challenge them politely then if they don't stop then polite naming and shaming is due. This has worked with some groups who used to abseil down delicate friction slabs but have now stopped.
 John Kelly 09 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

58 ascents logged with UKC
52 TR, 6 solo ( one soloist commented that the ascent was preceded by 2 TR practices)
Every ascent polishes the rock, each ascent is equally valid.
The bloke taking 10 scouts top roping should be commended for getting kid's into the outdoors.
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 ChrisBrooke 09 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

Not sure if you're joking or not.

Someone who is capable of getting up an E8 friction slab is likely to do a lot less flailing, pedalling and general 'damage' to a route than a beginner, whether in rock-boots or not, who has no reasonable chance of getting up the route, and neither the skills nor experience necessary to do so.

Being hauled up an E8 slab on a TR is not as equally valid as soloing it after TR practice. They're only equally valid in so far as none of what we do is 'valid' in any wider sense than the ethics under which we try to operate. i.e. the geezer who walks around the back of Stanage to get to the top is as equally 'valid' as the climber on Flying Buttress Direct, but only in the sense that 'valid' communicates no meaning in those circumstances.
 Andy Say 09 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

I wonder how many UKC posters could quote those recommendations without googling them first?
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 John Kelly 09 May 2016
In reply to ChrisBrooke:
I'm just feeling a bit grumpy Chris,
but seriously is the experience of a hard climber ascending this route more valid than a scouts ( possibly) first efforts, the reality is most people top rope this route, why should it be the preserve of hard climbers
, just seems elitist to me
Post edited at 17:24
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 ianstevens 09 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:
> but seriously is the experience of a hard climber ascending this route more valid than a scouts ( possibly) first efforts, the reality is most people top rope this route, why should it be the preserve of hard climbers

> , just seems elitist to me

That's the difference though. A hard climber can actually get up the climb, top rope or not. Someone who is on their first ever climb hasn't a hope in hells chance of climbing friciton based 6c moves. It's not elitist, its called not being a dick. Why try something way beyond your ability and ruin it (i.e. add polish) for those who can? To quote the guide for the easier E6 option - "Sadly top-roping it is polishing the crucial holds just below the top - do you really have to?".

Regardless, what an awful way to run a group session. The entire "challenge" for a beginner is, 9 times out of 10, simply to get to the top. Pick something realsitic. It might be a Mod, it might be a HVS, but its not E8.
Post edited at 17:31
 Neil Williams 09 May 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

Did any of them get up it?
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 John Kelly 09 May 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

You could pretty much argue that only 6 out of 58 actually climbed it however I think the 52 top roping climbers and the 10 top roping scouts should be commended for effort.
I don't know the route and would agree odd choice, is there some reason it's attractive to group, awesome anchors, safe area?
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 Pewtle 09 May 2016
In reply to ianstevens:
It sounds like a really terrible way to introduce people to climbing. You can debate whether their experience is more / less valid than that of a hard grit climber, but that doesn't detract from the point that they probably didn't enjoy it as much as they could (assuming they were relative newcomers to the sport). There is so much to go at in the Roaches, for all grades, that it seems like a bad choice.
Post edited at 18:04
 John Kelly 09 May 2016
In reply to Pewtle:

Completely agree, odd choice but these folk have dragged some kid's from the evil of xbox and took them to a crag, brilliant, their route choice is odd, but to whinge about polishing seems to completely miss point
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OP smithaldo 09 May 2016
In reply to Andy Say:
I wasn't quoting the BMC reccomendations just thinking I was pretty sure that what was happening was on the not acceptable end of the scale.
OP smithaldo 09 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

In comparison, for your area, Would a gang of people top roping dawes rides a shovel head seem ok?

Would you say anything to them?
 3leggeddog 10 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

The first swallow of spring has arrived. I was wondering where it was.

Gimmer chain rant anyone?
 John Kelly 10 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

> In comparison, for your area, Would a gang of people top roping dawes rides a shovel head seem ok?

Why would I not like that, routes get polished. It's difficult for me to understand why only some self selecting individuals are allowed to do this and others are not, don't get it.

Can you clarify what the scouts were wearing, you said not trainers.

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 John Kelly 10 May 2016
In reply to 3leggeddog:

Don't get me started, there were dozens of expert climbers polishing 5 star Gimmer routes last weekend assisted by that terrible device, thankfully no scouts!
 Yanis Nayu 10 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

> Why would I not like that, routes get polished. It's difficult for me to understand why only some self selecting individuals are allowed to do this and others are not, don't get it.

> Can you clarify what the scouts were wearing, you said not trainers.

Woggles.
 Neil Williams 10 May 2016
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
Nobody has yet said if they were meeting with success on the climb. It's said one was scrabbling around, but what about the others?

A few Scout Counties, including Bucks where I am, have quite advanced Scout climbing clubs for the 14-18 age group. If they were by and large successfully getting up the climb, not scrabbling all over it, what's the problem, provided it was not being hogged when others demonstrably wanted it?
Post edited at 09:13
 ChrisBrooke 10 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

I've been thinking a little more about this and I think the reason it seems instinctively 'wrong' to lots of folks (myself included) is that some climbs are by their nature 'elite'. They discriminate against those who don't have the skills and strength to climb them. That's the nature of the game, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact it's kind of the point. If ticking your first E2, E3, E4 etc wasn't an 'elite' experience it would be less satisfying. If everyone could climb such routes on their first day of pulling their fat ass off the sofa and putting on a pair of rock shoes, your years of training, dieting, stretching, fingerboarding etc, wouldn't mean as much. We value rare things, and the closer you get to E8, the more rare the experience.

As the route gets harder, the ways in which it can be climbed get fewer. By the time you get to an E8 slab, the ripples, crystals and features you can pull, smear or stand on get very few, and as a result, each tiny feature is important. There aren't other options if you lose a pebble, or a marginal smear becomes polished. That's why it's 'worse' to polish up a hard friction slab than some VDiff where there are almost infinite ways of climbing it and countless combinations of hand and foot placements. Such a route can take a little polish and still be climbable by most people.

So, I don't think it's elitist in a snobby way to ask beginners not to trash around on a route like this. It's just asking them to be respectful of a challenge which is beyond them at this time, and which is more susceptible to damage than other, easier routes, where damage is defined as changes which substantially negatively effect the climbability of the route.

Well, that's my two cents anyway I do however think Obsession Fatale would benefit from a couple of bolts to make it more accessible to the masses.....
 Andy Say 10 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

> I don't know the route and would agree odd choice, is there some reason it's attractive to group, awesome anchors, safe area?

If they'd moved 10m left they'd have been on a couple of V.Diffs. Another 10m and three more routes in the V. Diff range.

Interestingly the photo topo of the area in the Roaches guide shows someone being lowered off Sifta's Quid pretty much down the line of Obsession Fatale - never noticed that before.

But. The point made above about damage to the routes is perfectly valid; scrabbling for purchase is going to impact a lot more than someone who is trying to be as precise and careful as possible.
And. Throwing 'novices' onto 'E' grades is often more about the leader's ego than the needs of the group and seems a good way of getting the reaction, 'sod this; who's for a sesh on the xbox'.
 Ramblin dave 10 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

> It's difficult for me to understand why only some self selecting individuals are allowed to do this and others are not, don't get it.

Because what mostly causes polish is feet slipping on holds. And someone who's at or near the standard needed to do the route clean will generally get up it without their feet slipping around too much, while people who are nowhere near that standard - and unless this was actually the British Scouting Association's elite comp squad or something, that probably covers this case - will tend to scrabble away with their feet going like roadrunner and cause a lot more damage in the process.
 Andy Say 10 May 2016
In reply to Neil Williams:

> A few Scout Counties, including Bucks where I am, have quite advanced Scout climbing clubs for the 14-18 age group.

E6 and E7 6b? That really would be quite advanced, Neil.

 John Kelly 10 May 2016
In reply to Ramblin dave:

fair point, are we saying then that we should have achieved a certain grade before we are permitted to make top rope attempt?
(for argument sake, required to lead E2 to tope rope E7)
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 Dave Garnett 10 May 2016
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

That's very clear and balanced view.

PoM is one of the most obvious examples I can think of where polishing a crucial foothold will make a huge difference to the difficulty and seriousness of a classic route. The climbing up to the crux is fairly straightforward (Obs Fat too) so there's a real chance of relatively inexperienced people on a top rope getting as far as the much harder moves near the top and then, perhaps believing they've nearly done it, spending ages scrabbling about on the marginal holds.

It's a matter of degree and of course there's a degree of hypocrisy (and yes, I've top roped both of them). If an individual chooses to throw a rope down routes like this there's nothing anyone can do to stop them, but group leaders have a special responsibility not to encourage inexperienced young people to do something they almost certainly wouldn't have chosen to do themselves, especially in large groups.
 ChrisBrooke 10 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

> fair point, are we saying then that we should have achieved a certain grade before we are permitted to make top rope attempt?

> (for argument sake, required to lead E2 to tope rope E7)

It's not a question of being 'permitted'. As others have said, there's nothing stopping anyone toproping anything, climbing it in muddy boots, whatever they want to do.....other than respect for the rock, common sense and courtesy towards other climbers.
 Trangia 10 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

Maybe group leaders should be required to first lead any route they are putting their students onto?

a) it would establish their competence. Should they really be teaching people to climb on something they can't do themselves?

b) it might concentrate their mind on just how important friction is and the damage that can be done by loads of scrabbling learners busy polishing the holds?
OP smithaldo 10 May 2016
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> The climbing up to the crux is fairly straightforward (Obs Fat too) so there's a real chance of relatively inexperienced people on a top rope getting as far as the much harder moves near the top and then, perhaps believing they've nearly done it, spending ages scrabbling about on the marginal holds.

This is exactly what was happening!

They were getting up there and then basically being winched up, with legs almost perpendicular to the rock with feet going like roadrunner.



 Chris Reid 10 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

See the content of the SPA - crag etiquette
 Neil Williams 10 May 2016
In reply to smithaldo:

Doesn't sound a good choice of route, then.
 John Kelly 10 May 2016
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Hi Chris, echo what Dave Garrnet said, great response

That said I still feel that we should be encouraging the individuals who take our kids out into the hills, often for little or no reward and when they occasionally stray onto our cherished E8, park where they shouldn't, camp in odd spots, forget to take a map, drop litter, swear, etc etc we need to just be the bigger people and suck it up. It would be fantastic if everyone using the outdoors had a UKC background, they don't and we should make allowances for that.
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 Andy Say 10 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

> That said I still feel that we should be encouraging the individuals who take our kids out into the hills, often for little or no reward and when they occasionally stray onto our cherished E8, park where they shouldn't, camp in odd spots, forget to take a map, drop litter, swear, etc etc we need to just be the bigger people and suck it up. It would be fantastic if everyone using the outdoors had a UKC background, they don't and we should make allowances for that.

Sort of 'suck it up' but try to educate?

And I think you are bigging up 'UKC background' a tad There are quite a few prats on here as well as out in the real world.
 Rob Parsons 10 May 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

I find your responses to this weird.

> That said I still feel that we should be encouraging the individuals who take our kids out into the hills ...

On principle, I don't agree: the hills and crags are crowded enough, and nobody needs 'encouragement' to visit them. However, even if you do think that people should be encouraged to introduce people to the hills and crags, then a fundamental part of that introduction must be respect for the environment, and respect for other folk who are trying to enjoy the same limited, crowded and somewhat fragile facilities.

If the portrayal by the OP is accurate then that's not what was happening here; on the contrary, it sounds like an attempt to turn a crag into an indoor climbing wall.

> It would be fantastic if everyone using the outdoors had a UKC background

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that.
Post edited at 21:15
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 John Kelly 10 May 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

More simply then

I think young people and the people who give time and effort to take them into the outdoors should be encouraged

We probably shouldn't be surprised when they do odd stuff like top rope E8

When they do odd stuff we shouldn't get all shouty

I don't think the hills are too full, nobody on them most the time

UKC background, that would be someone who looks at UKC, so probably a fairly committed climber with interest in outdoors



 pebbles 11 May 2016
In reply to ChrisBrooke:
I dont think its about elitism. The way I look at it is people who do do these routes on lead, do so with little protection and are going to hurt yourself if they come off. so the more somebody without the skills to do anything but flail hopelessly on toprope on these routes (which would be me if I was daft enough to do so) flails on them, the more dangerous they are making it for somebody who is going to make a genuine attempt to climb it on lead. If youre gonna try and work it then yes, its all part of the process, but it seems pretty pointless to get on just for a play when there are plenty of far easier routes which will probably still be way harder than the person can climb
Post edited at 08:30

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