Introduction of pay and display all Stanage carparks

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 Andypeak 25 Oct 2022

Hi all

Derbyshire County Council and the Peak District National Park are planning introducing a off street parking places amendment which will make many of the current free carparks pay and display. This includes all of the Stanage ones, Burbage , Kinder Upper Booth and many others.

I would strongly recommend everyone to put in a formal objection to this proposal to make pretty much every free carpark in the dark peak pay and display. This will only encourage people to park irresponsibly on grass verges and annoy residents by parking on local village side streets. This can be clearly seen at Stanage Plantation carpark which is usually empty but the verges are full.

It also add an additional barrier to accessing the outdoors for the less well off.

Objections can be emailed to paul.jameson@derbyshire.gov.uk by 21st November. 

13
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

Why *shouldn't* people pay to rent a piece of land on which to store their personal vehicle?

If you're not a fan, Hathersage is served by train and it's only a few kilometres walk, or consider cycling.

I'm all for this.  It'll mean people choose where to park based on where they're climbing, rather than the Popular end just being full by 8am by people who climb elsewhere on the crag.

The one thing I would say is that I'd like to see phone and card payment available.  Cash is a nuisance.  And perhaps reinstate the Stanage Sticker scheme (better than the season scheme that replaced it) - I was more than happy to pay for that.

I'm sure they can find a Council warden to go and ticket those who block the road and make some more money.

Post edited at 16:02
93
OP Andypeak 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Why *shouldn't* people pay to rent a piece of land on which to store their personal vehicle?

Because of the 2 reasons I have highlighted above. 

Parking wardens ticketing people blocking the road obstructing the highway is not an offence they can deal with, it would have to be a police officer and people will just park on verges which isn't illegal just irresponsible. 

5
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

> Why *shouldn't* people pay to rent a piece of land on which to store their personal vehicle?

> Because of the 2 reasons I have highlighted above. 

If you can afford a car and fuel, you can afford a couple of quid to park.

*Really* poor people ride bicycles (cheap ones) and walk.

> Parking wardens ticketing people blocking the road obstructing the highway is not an offence they can deal with, it would have to be a police officer and people will just park on verges which isn't illegal just irresponsible. 

They could put a Controlled Parking Zone in place and apply for decriminalisation, then Council wardens can enforce.  CPZs ban parking other than in marked spaces or wholly on private land.

Even double yellows would do, as these apply to the wall/building line including verges.

Post edited at 16:23
73
 NobleStone 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

Are you sure this applies to Burbage as well? I can't see it on the list (link below), but it may have a stupid name I don't recognise. Who'd have thought Stanage Popular was called Hollin Bank?!

I'm not against the principal of charging for parking. I'd argue a bigger barrier to the less well-off is a lack of public transport. I agree though that unless there's a simultaneous clampdown on verge parking, things will just get silly. 

More info on the consultation: https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/national-p...

3
 Bob Kemp 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

I'd go a bit further and say that this is just another example of the monetisation of everything. In the future nothing will be free.  

3
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> I'd go a bit further and say that this is just another example of the monetisation of everything. In the future nothing will be free.

I'd say that nothing involving motoring should be free.  Motoring is to be discouraged.  It's right that we should pay the full costs of car use.  Indeed, my proposal for how to replace fuel tax would involve a total ban on free parking in most urban areas, for instance, including the provision of it by businesses, and paid parking being subject to a hefty tax.

That said I'd say the P&D car parks with toilets should allow 15 minutes free in dedicated bays in order for people to use the toilets only.

Post edited at 16:50
69
 NobleStone 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Was it ever really free? Car parks are maintained by and paid for by local authorities, paid for by tax payers. Free parking is essentially a subsidy for car owners. 

Would you rather your local authority spends their budget on subsidising car owners or essential services? 

12
 Dave Garnett 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> If you're not a fan, Hathersage is served by train and it's only a few kilometres walk, or consider cycling.

> It'll mean people choose where to park based on where they're climbing, rather than the Popular end just being full by 8am by people who climb elsewhere on the crag.

Sounds a bit as though you're happy for other people to have to walk from Hathersage, but you don't want to walk to the Popular End from one of the other pay and display carparks!

Edit:  I should say that I'm OK with paying to park (within reason) as long as it's contactless with a machine displaying simple instructions that don't result in a queue of people trying to figure out what to do!

Post edited at 17:03
1
 fred99 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> If you're not a fan, Hathersage is served by train and it's only a few kilometres walk, or consider cycling.

The logistics of this just do not work.

To get a train from any distance away with the final arrival time earlyish mid-morning would probably involve leaving the night before - and that's assuming no trains are late.

Similarly returning home would mean another major expedition with a very long travel.

And that doesn't take into account walking "a few kilometres" with a climbing sac at both ends of the day to get to/from Hathersage, plus possible journeys on foot to/from the nearest station to where people live (parking cars at stations is not always possible).

As for cycling :- OK if you're bouldering, but not if climbing - ever tried cycling a distance with a climbing sac ? Then there are the problems taking a bike on trains - limited numbers and pre-booking being the major drawbacks. This gets particularly bad when you have to change trains.

9
 hang_about 25 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

I can cycle with a climbing sack etc - regularly do - but a bouldering pad! Even a moderate wind makes that hugely dangerous, not to mention restricted vision.

Parking on the verges has got well out of hand at Stanage and Burbage. I wonder what the serried ranks of campervans will do though? 

2
 C Witter 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Sociopath...

1) There is no bus

2) It is good for people to access the outdoors

3) The council doesn't do anything to maintain this land

4) There's a cost of living crisis

5) why should someone have to work an extra hour in an exploitative job making other people wealthy just to pay for leaving their car unattended?

6) More generally, those with property are getting wealthier at an accelerating rate, whilst those without are getting poorer. This doesn't apply per se to councils, but the principle here is that rents are about the redistribution of wealth upward.

7) Sell your car and give the value to Shelter and then you can come on here and write like a smug arse about car users paying for the privilege of trying to eke a tiny bit of joy out of this piece of shite existence called the C21st.

25
 Alkis 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

I have to ask, do you actually climb much? Like, ever? Have you been to those places on public transport? Considering you think that it's viable to always take public transport to Stanage and in fact whether it could *ever* be viable, I have my doubts. I'd love to see how well a proposal for a midnight bus back from Stanage and/or 24/7 trains from Hathersage would go down. 

Your suggestions, not only here but in other threads too, would bring about the death of much outdoor climbing, or at least make it only accessible to those of us that are well of. Note that I am perfectly happy to pay for parking at Stanage, I'd buy the season pass in fact. If parking was not available at all, I don't think I'd be able to climb there very often, if ever. 

Post edited at 17:41
4
 Swig 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Stanage isn't well served by rail in that the trains aren't very regular and it's a long walk as compared to walking from the parking. And that is the key comparison - not that it's a short walk compared to walking to Gimmer. 

Some sort of shuttle bus between the station and the crag would be good to improve the rail access. 

There is plenty of parking apart from on busy weekends. 

1
 Alkis 25 Oct 2022
In reply to hang_about:

> I can cycle with a climbing sack etc - regularly do - but a bouldering pad! Even a moderate wind makes that hugely dangerous, not to mention restricted vision.

I've done that in the past, cycling to the train station to go to the Peak. There is a sign over the bike path, and my pad caught it, to rather hilarious results. Softest bike fall I've ever had.

 Swig 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Swig:

Just to expand on the busy weekends bit - a lot of locals don't use the crag for full days but for evenings and shorter sessions (and sometimes would steer clear on a sunny bank holiday). 

 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Swig:

Two hours parking is very affordable.

47
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Swig:

I do think a weekend bus service would be of value, timed to meet the trains.

13
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Alkis:

Where did I say I would ban parking?  I just agree with it all being chargeable.

I have walked from Hathersage station to Stanage so I know full well how far it is.  It's totally feasible for any Manchester or Sheffield climber out for the day.  And who's going home at midnight?

Post edited at 18:05
36
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to C Witter:

Wow, bitter much?

36
 Alkis 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Where did I say I would ban parking?  I just agree with it all being chargeable.

It being chargable means that parking is only available where paid parking is offered, elsewhere is double yellow. If the council has no reason to provide parking in some obscure corner, then that becomes inaccessible by any means other than bike. I do enough cycling in the Peak to know that potentially cycling on some of the smaller lanes in the dark is not the cleverest of ideas.

> I have walked from Hathersage station to Stanage so I know full well how far it is.  It's totally feasible for any Manchester or Sheffield climber out for the day.

And what happens when for whatever reason (things happen on routes) you don't make the last train or bus? This is what I mean when I'm saying that I don't think you climb much, things don't always go to plan, especially if you are trying to push grades, it's not a controlled environment with controlled outcomes.

> And who's going home at midnight?

I do, and so do loads of other people from the surrounding areas that work long enough hours to only be able to climb in the evenings. Lamping is quite popular.

And going back to your suggestion of "no free parking at workplaces", any company I work for would get two options: 1) I get free parking 2) I work after hours. They can pick which one they want. I'm not leaving work after 12 hours to faff around with buses, or to cycle on main roads in the rain and get run over.

9
 planetmarshall 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

>  This can be clearly seen at Stanage Plantation carpark which is usually empty but the verges are full.

I haven't seen this to be the case in, what, a couple of years? Since signs were put up explicitly asking people not to.

6
 Petrafied 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Why *shouldn't* people pay to rent a piece of land on which to store their personal vehicle

Or to put it another way "I've got lots of dosh (being an IT contractor, and not burdened with paying as much tax as most other people), so I'm happy to pay if it means I can get parked with less hassle now that the oiks can't afford to park their rust buckets there".

8
 Chris_Mellor 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Gosh Neil, why do you dislike car drivers and cars so much? The ability to get to a crag by car/van when you want to go and where public transport does not go or goes infrequently is priceless. Do you dislike motorbikes as  well? Scooters? E-bikes? Why on earth shouldn't people use personal motorised transport to get where they want to go?

5
 planetmarshall 25 Oct 2022
In reply to C Witter:

> 7) Sell your car and give the value to Shelter and then you can come on here and write like a smug arse about car users paying for the privilege of trying to eke a tiny bit of joy out of this piece of shite existence called the C21st.

This is a ridiculous argument.To paraphrase Ian Hislop, it is possible to be critical of our overreliance on motor vehicles without needing to advocate the return to a barter system and dressing in a burlap sack.

There is literally no one who drives who cannot also afford to pay for parking, and if additionally this encourages climbers to put a bit more effort into car pooling then I am all for it.

2
 kevin stephens 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

It would be good if charging for car parking resulted in more car sharing and hence more chance of getting a space.

A lot of places now use pay by phone apps which can be low hassle.   Parking costs are likely to be a lot less than climbing wall admission which I’m guessing many of the detractors are more than happy to pay.
 

With the current Government’s approach to the economic crisis I’m expecting funding for National Parks to be cut further ( I can’t imagine Teresa Coffey values National Parks) while they are under increasing pressure from more visitors. Something has to give and under the circumstances I don’t mind too much if I have to pay a reasonable amount to park.

Post edited at 18:50
1
OP Andypeak 25 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall

> I haven't seen this to be the case in, what, a couple of years? Since signs were put up explicitly asking people not to.

It happens every weekend. 

 Luke90 25 Oct 2022
In reply to kevin stephens:

> Parking costs are likely to be a lot less than climbing wall admission which I’m guessing many of the detractors are more than happy to pay.

Have you never seen the wailing and gnashing of teeth on here when someone posts about a wall putting its prices up?!

 mrphilipoldham 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

By this definition, Neil also thinks nurses should pay for parking at hospitals.

14
 Babika 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

What exactly do the Peak Authority plan to do with the revenue generated? 

Its not going to go to Derbyshire CC social services or any other worthy local government function pared to the bone. DCC are just the Highways Agency granting (or not) the permission. 

If anyone close to the Peak Authority can shed any light I'd be really interested before forming a judgement? It's not obvious from the consultation anymore than "because we can".

1
 Tyler 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

> It also add an additional barrier to accessing the outdoors for the less well off.

Every time this crops up people disingenuously suggest one of the objections to this is that it acts as a barrier for the less well off as though the car parks of Stanage aren’t full of cars belonging to the well off who can support a time consuming hobby and the agency to get out climbing. Climbing is a middle class hobby and if I was a local council tax payer I’d want the council to maximise revenue during a cost of living crisis. If you are genuinely bothered about the less well off write to DCC and ask that the monies raised goes towards funding leisure facilities with less barriers to entry like gyms and swimming pools in the local towns. 
Also, the less well off are still having to pay for parking when they go shopping or to work or to hospital but, sure, let’s concentrate on those parking fees that have a disproportionate effect on the middle classes with plenty of leisure time. 

Post edited at 19:50
1
 Mr Lopez 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Why *shouldn't* people pay to rent a piece of land on which to store their personal vehicle?

> consider cycling.

And where will you leave the bike? Unless you are suggesting people wouldn't pay to rent the piece of land on which to store their personal vehicle as that'd be a ludicrous proposition. Free stuff, ha. What are we in communist China or what?

2
 MG 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> Gosh Neil, why do you dislike car drivers and cars so much?

Neil can answer for himself but cars (distinct from drivers - it's not personal) are appalling in almost every way and we have ended with society dominated by them to a ludicrous extent. Efforts to reduce the number and dominance of cars should be applauded 

3
 pec 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I have walked from Hathersage station to Stanage so I know full well how far it is.  It's totally feasible for any Manchester or Sheffield climber out for the day.

As someone who used to live in Manchester and climb on Stanage before I had a car I can tell you that it was normal for me to leave my house and return to it 9 hours later having spent only 3 hours at the actual crag. A piss poor return for my time investment by any standards.

And I didn't even live that far from the centre so the bus journey into town was quite quick. It was also probably the busiest bus route into the city so never had to wait more than 5 or 10 mins for a bus.

If you live further out or not on a frequent bus route or in a satellite town requiring you to get another train into Manchester first then frankly the idea of getting to Stanage by public transport for the day is farcical.

 MG 25 Oct 2022
In reply to C Witter:

> Sociopath...

> 1) There is no bus

There should be

> 2) It is good for people to access the outdoors

...and bad for them and the environment to have cars everwhere

> 3) The council doesn't do anything to maintain this land

Car parks don't grow on trees

> 4) There's a cost of living crisis 

If you run a car you can pay to park

> 5) why should someone have to work an extra hour in an exploitative job making other people wealthy just to pay for leaving their car unattended?

Because of the.costs of leaving cars everwhere.

11
 Tyler 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> And where will you leave the bike?Unless you are suggesting people wouldn't pay to rent the piece of land on which to store their personal vehicle as that'd be a ludicrous proposition.

 Maybe when the letters go in people could ask for a bike rack .

1
 PaulJepson 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

If they want to make some money, I'd much rather them double yellow the roads and ticket every car on the verge or in an unmarked bay. 

 Mr Lopez 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Tyler:

>  Maybe when the letters go in people could ask for a bike rack .

A pay and display one i hope

Message Removed 25 Oct 2022
Reason: inappropriate content
 Michael Hood 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

I don't object to the concept of paying for parking, but there are a few things about paid parking that I do object to:

  1. That the revenue does something worthwhile, not just paying for extra bureaucracy or to fund the machine (& support staff) required to charge for parking.
  2. That it's easy to use - that means phone app AND card payments, not bothered about cash which also reduces the upkeep costs.
  3. That there's a reasonable range of parking charges for different time periods - it rather annoys me where you get parking that costs £8 whether you're there for a couple of hours (no chance) or all day.
  4. That you don't have to precisely work out how long you're going to want parking beforehand.

I realise that 4 conflicts a bit with 3, in that any parking that isn't inside a controlled entry/exit can't do "pay on exit" (e.g. Hook's Carr @ Stanage couldn't do that), but "pay and display" as usually implemented is exactly what I object to in 4. £1 for up to an hour, £3 for 3 hours and £8 for all day doesn't give enough options.

 TobyA 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Tyler:

>  Maybe when the letters go in people could ask for a bike rack .

There is one already at Stanage popular parking IIRC. Not many places mind, although I don't know how well used it is. Cycling to Stanage from Sheffield or Chesterfield is hard work I'd add. Not impossible but doing it with kit on your back would be a grind. Coming from Chesterfield you'd probably want a mountain bike in order to miss busy road sections and take the Houndkirk road (byway) also. So not trivial even from the nearest towns.

 kevin stephens 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

For those wondering about where the money may go the PDNP’s budget for 2022/23 is £7,108,870. Rather worryingly:

“Despite the September Spending Review commitments however, Defra have not announced the National Park Grant settlement, and there remains uncertainty over its level and duration, with no commitment so far from Defra to inflation protection, or any increase in National Park Grant.”

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0029/299342/Budget-R...

 Godwin 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

> Hi all

> Derbyshire County Council and the Peak District National Park are planning introducing a off street parking places amendment which will make many of the current free carparks pay and display. This includes all of the Stanage ones, Burbage , Kinder Upper Booth and many others.

> I would strongly recommend everyone to put in a formal objection to this proposal to make pretty much every free carpark in the dark peak pay and display. This will only encourage people to park irresponsibly on grass verges and annoy residents by parking on local village side streets. This can be clearly seen at Stanage Plantation carpark which is usually empty but the verges are full.

> It also add an additional barrier to accessing the outdoors for the less well off.

> Objections can be emailed to paul.jameson@derbyshire.gov.uk by 21st November. 

What is the rationale behind this, has it anything to do with people sleeping in Vans?

1
 Babika 25 Oct 2022
In reply to kevin stephens:

Thanks for posting that link - some really useful financial information even if the budget detail is 2 years old. 

However I'm slightly boggled that in a budget of  £6.8m (20/21) £1.2m is for employers pension contributions! I wonder how many of us have an employer that contributes 19.57% of our salary on top of anything we might put it? 

No wonder they need to put in some car park charges, that and potential loss of Defra grant would be very challenging financially

3
 RobAJones 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Babika:

> I wonder how many of us have an employer that contributes 19.57% of our salary on top of anything we might put it? 

Most public sector employees? They went from about 14% to over 20% for the likes of the NHS and Police. Teachers are nearly 24% and yet there are teachers opting out because they 'need" their employee contribution of 10%. Its also why virtually all private schools are no longer part of the TPS

In reply to Andypeak:

A genuine question because I haven’t hitched for a while. Do people still get lifts or has it completely disappeared? We used to hitch from the bus stop at  Hunters Bar and get all over the peak. If the bus came before a lift, then the destination was Burbage or Millstone.

 Holdtickler 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

Your issue No. 3 was a bit of a thing for Brimham when  used to head over there from York years ago. It used to be reasonably priced for 2 hours, but then after that you had to pay the full day. This made it a right pain for evening sessions because it's hard to do much in less than 2 hours but then you'll never get your 8 hours worth of parking either if you arrived after work. It forced you to face your fear of Almscliff more at least I guess.

It's a bit like how a curry and rice always falls just short of the free delivery threshold. Almost like some thought had gone into it...

 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Alkis:

> It being chargable means that parking is only available where paid parking is offered, elsewhere is double yellow. If the council has no reason to provide parking in some obscure corner, then that becomes inaccessible by any means other than bike. I do enough cycling in the Peak to know that potentially cycling on some of the smaller lanes in the dark is not the cleverest of ideas.

Absolutely fine with suitable lighting.

> And what happens when for whatever reason (things happen on routes) you don't make the last train or bus? This is what I mean when I'm saying that I don't think you climb much, things don't always go to plan, especially if you are trying to push grades, it's not a controlled environment with controlled outcomes.

It's probably not a great idea to get on something where you're pushing your grade ten minutes before the last train!

And it's not like you get multipitch epics on Stanage.  It's near enough all single pitch.  So there's a limit to how much what you say can be true.

> I do, and so do loads of other people from the surrounding areas that work long enough hours to only be able to climb in the evenings. Lamping is quite popular.

But if you do that you'll not be staying for long so the parking will be cheap.  Actually, having checked, it'll be free, the charging day is 9am to 6pm according to the Order they are using.

> And going back to your suggestion of "no free parking at workplaces", any company I work for would get two options: 1) I get free parking 2) I work after hours. They can pick which one they want. I'm not leaving work after 12 hours to faff around with buses, or to cycle on main roads in the rain and get run over.

I'm not suggesting employers do it.  I'm suggesting it be the law as a replacement for fuel duty as will be necessary when everyone goes electric.  Thus, your employer wouldn't have any choice.

Post edited at 22:26
13
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

Phone apps usually allow you to extend.  A simple price per hour or part thereof is the best way, even if you slightly discount "all day" to be the same as 6 hours rather than 8, say.

I used to hate paid parking, but for one reason and one reason only - that you had to faff about having the right change for an amount you had no way to know in advance.  If phone app or contactless is available - ideally both - that goes away.

Post edited at 22:28
7
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Mendacious, don't think nurses count going to hospitals as a hobby.

 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> By this definition, Neil also thinks nurses should pay for parking at hospitals.

Staff do generally pay, at a discounted rate, for parking at hospitals.  However, as a hospital has more travel demand than a typical town or city centre, my view is that they should be maintaining their own planned public transport networks (including provision for staff) such that only someone needing to attend A&E but not quite an ambulance case would need to go there by car.  And as with all commuting, where feasible, cycling and walking should be highly encouraged.

There's also as someone else said the fact that key workers and people going for a climb are not even slightly the same thing.  So even if we do think all NHS staff should have free parking at hospitals (i.e. that they're considered essential car users due to the nature of the role), then that doesn't in any way affect my view that climbers and hillwalkers should just cough up.

Post edited at 22:34
1
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Godwin:

> What is the rationale behind this, has it anything to do with people sleeping in Vans?

I doubt it as the charging day is 9am to 6pm.

 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to MG:

> Neil can answer for himself but cars (distinct from drivers - it's not personal) are appalling in almost every way and we have ended with society dominated by them to a ludicrous extent. Efforts to reduce the number and dominance of cars should be applauded

My view is in principle:

1. Active travel and public transport (and combinations thereof) are to be strongly encouraged.  I do think a Hathersage station-Stanage-Burbage weekend shuttle minibus would be a great idea, but it's not *that* far to walk.  Indeed I was surprised just how not-that-far it is when I first actually walked it.

2. However, if active travel isn't viable for a trip to Stanage, then it's quite fair that a charge should be made to rent the piece of land on which you're parking, which can help fund the Park, pay for maintenance of the parking facility and maybe put a bit towards improving active travel and public transport options.

3. We will need a way to replace fuel tax, and so to me loading that on people using cars where they cause most harm is a good idea, as why would you want to tax someone to the hilt who lives in a small village that lost its bus service years ago?  The easiest way to do that is to tax parking, as using a car is little use if you can't park it, and people don't drive into busy places like town centres for a laugh.

I'm not *totally* anti-car, they have a role as some journeys simply cannot be viably done by other means - I'm not someone who suggests it's realistic to sell your SUV and buy an e-Bakfiets instead except for people in very specific situations.  And I'm certainly driving in favour of using the useless Avanti West Coast at the moment (though I would rather they sorted that mess out, as I'm sick of the M6).

I just fundamentally think paid parking is a reasonable idea in busy places where cars can and do cause issues.

Post edited at 22:41
4
 will_mcmahon 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

It is worth noting that a Peak District parking pass is available and is a pretty good deal- not that it makes the fact you have to pay for something previously free a pleasant thought.

A local (semi reliable?) bus service over the moors would be very welcomed, and I'm sure it would go down very well with tourists and locals alike. Maybe the parking fee could be reinvested into that service to make it viable? I imagine they will make a bucket load of money from the fines they hand out, if the roaches is anything to go by.

 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to will_mcmahon:

I thought the ending of the Stanage Sticker scheme was a really bad idea.  I bought one for the duration of the scheme even though I mostly ended up parking at Popular.  It was maybe a bit too cheap, but rather than binning it in favour of wider season tickets they should just have put it up a bit, or kept it at £15 but only for 3 or 4 months which would be a price roughly in line with the season ticket.

Post edited at 22:43
 C Witter 25 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

I've nothing against criticising our over-reliance on cars, though citing Ian Hislop is scraping the barrel. What I have something against is the idea that people have "a right" to charge rent. That is what made me throw my toys out of the pram... as a serial renter. 

Separately, in response to your point, right now what we can see with the cost of living crisis is how fossil fuels, mega profits and rapidly increasingly social inequality are connected. That is the point we should be advancing. Your "charge people to stop them driving" approach is just so much piss in the sea, besides being wrongheaded in so many ways that are too tedious to go into.

18
 C Witter 25 Oct 2022
In reply to kevin stephens:

> For those wondering about where the money may go the PDNP’s budget for 2022/23 is £7,108,870. Rather worryingly:

> “Despite the September Spending Review commitments however, Defra have not announced the National Park Grant settlement, and there remains uncertainty over its level and duration, with no commitment so far from Defra to inflation protection, or any increase in National Park Grant.”

This is a good point, but raises the bigger issue of why we're getting austerity again and of how wealth is getting redistributed upward at the expense of the common good, with a parking fee every time you try to go outdoors just adding insult to injury. "Yes but it's green!" No it's not: it's underfunded councils, national parks, hospitals, etc, trying to take money off you to fill holes in their budgets created by a government that only serves the wealthiest 0.5%.

1
 Darkinbad 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Babi

> However I'm slightly boggled that in a budget of  £6.8m (20/21) £1.2m is for employers pension contributions! I wonder how many of us have an employer that contributes 19.57% of our salary on top of anything we might put it? 

Many employers are having to pump money into their defined benefit pension schemes to keep them afloat. Typically, most or all of the current employees are not members of the scheme, which would have been closed to new members years ago. So the payments bear no relation to current employee salary (which itself is only part of the total budget).

Post edited at 23:03
 mrphilipoldham 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Well given that the only time my access to climbing was restricted (mid-2020) I very quickly became a strain on the NHS, I wouldn’t say the difference is as much as you might imagine it is. So sure, go and make every parking space in the countryside pay and display, I’d climb (and other countryside based activities) less, if it all, and instead be a constant thorn in the side of my GP and local mental health services. Probably end up gaining weight and facing future physical problems too. For what? The local county council to earn a few quid from those that would cough up that it’ll spaff up the wall?

16
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

You'd stop all countryside activities despite a significant effect on your mental health for the stubborn sake of a fiver's parking charge?  (Or if you go often a £60ish annual permit).

How bizarre.

Post edited at 23:29
4
 Tyler 25 Oct 2022
In reply to TobyA:

> Cycling to Stanage from Sheffield or Chesterfield is hard work I'd add. Not impossible but doing it with kit on your back would be a grind. Coming from Chesterfield you'd probably want a mountain bike in order to miss busy road sections and take the Houndkirk road (byway) also. So not trivial even from the nearest towns.

I dare say but the cycling thing is a bit of a red herring. No one is being forced to ride a bike, instead, people are being forced to pay a bit more to indulge their hobby. 

 mrphilipoldham 25 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Do you know how often I venture in to the countryside? There's no mention of an annual permit in the proposals, nor did you mention one in your hypothetical blanket charging. Nor would it cover different county boundaries, so many permits probably required. If you're referring to the existing Peak parking permit at £40 a year then it seems difficult to believe it'll remain so 'affordable' if they're seen to be getting away with otherwise charging £8 a day. 

"How bizarre" just sums up how detached you are from many folks unfortunate realities, where literal last pennies are spent for a few litres of fuel each month for a day out doing themselves some good. 

13
 Neil Williams 25 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/national-p...

"An annual parking permit, applied across all 45 Authority-owned locations, will increase in stages gradually to a final cost of £66 by 2024 – the first increase for almost a decade, when it was originally set at £40 in 2013."

 George Frisby 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

Happy to pay for car parking as long as facilities come with it, like a small toilet block and a tap at the larger car parks. Think it would help keep the Peak much cleaner and make it much easier for families to visit. I guess more remote spots don't have utilites to them so could be tricky, but some probably do and they could be installed. 

2
 Alkis 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It's probably not a great idea to get on something where you're pushing your grade ten minutes before the last train!

> And it's not like you get multipitch epics on Stanage.  It's near enough all single pitch.  So there's a limit to how much what you say can be true.

So, you have never ended up getting yourself in trouble, faffing, and needing rescuing  off a route then. I've unintentionally ended up finishing in the dark quite a few times, and so do most people I've ever climbed with outside.  

> But if you do that you'll not be staying for long so the parking will be cheap.  Actually, having checked, it'll be free, the charging day is 9am to 6pm according to the Order they are using.

I don't actually object to paying, like I said. It's the rest of your anti-car stance when it comes to climbing I object to, with regards to practicality.

> I'm not suggesting employers do it.  I'm suggesting it be the law as a replacement for fuel duty as will be necessary when everyone goes electric.  Thus, your employer wouldn't have any choice.

There is always a way. If they can't cover the amount directly, I'd negotiate a wage increase equal to it. 

 Babika 26 Oct 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

> Most public sector employees? They went from about 14% to over 20% for the likes of the NHS and Police. Teachers are nearly 24% and yet there are teachers opting out because they 'need" their employee contribution of 10%. Its also why virtually all private schools are no longer part of the TPS

Ah yes, but the funding is generally different. For example the police employers contribution (used to be 24%, not sure now) is funded by govt grant - yes I know that's you and me - not by, say, increasing speeding fines drastically in different local areas to try and fund a budget deficit. 

I think NHS and teachers are the same in being unfunded schemes. 

Sounds off topic but nit really as it comes back to the point "what does the National Park Authority intend to do with the revenue raised?"

Btw I have no objection to paying to park - but I also like to know the income has a purpose 

 Rob Parsons 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Babika:

> What exactly do the Peak Authority plan to do with the revenue generated? 

That strikes me as the relevant question.

 NobleStone 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Babika:

Luckily the Park Authority is a relatively transparent organisation. All the info on what they do and their budget is on the website, although admittedly it's rather dense. For example, this year's budget can be found in the minutes of the February authority meeting here: 

https://democracy.peakdistrict.gov.uk/documents/g3059/Public%20reports%20pa...

 RobAJones 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Babika:

> I think NHS and teachers are the same in being unfunded schemes. 

The cynic in me thinks the increase in pension contributions are a convient way of being able to say the government are increasing funding without it costing them any extra, at least in the short term. 

> Btw I have no objection to paying to park - but I also like to know the income has a purpose 

Nor me, similar to a tourist tax, if an improved bus service resulted, it would help with the argument in favour. Reading these threads makes me appreciate that I can get a bus home from Keswick, after I've been thrown out of the Pub. 

 Howard J 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

Like most people I'd prefer not to pay to park, but it's hard to make a moral case that someone who can afford to run a vehicle costing thousands (I don't see very many rust-buckets) and carrying hundreds of pounds worth of climbing gear should expect parking facilities for their recreational activity to be paid for by Peak District residents.  These car parks have to be built and maintained, and it's not unreasonable to expect those who use them to contribute a few quid to these costs.

I agree that there should be a better range of pricing, and that payment should be easy.

 mrjonathanr 26 Oct 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

> The cynic in me thinks the increase in pension contributions are a convient way of being able to say the government are increasing funding without it costing them any extra, at least in the short term. 

Off topic, but the pension increases are coming out of existing budgets, there is no increase in funding to cover them. They effectively cut normal budgets and not by trivial sums.

 RobAJones 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrjonathanr:

> They effectively cut normal budgets and not by trivial sums.

Certainly in education it's massive. Given that the wage bill will be about 85% of schools annual expenditure. Increase wages by 3% and employer pension contributions by 10% means that saying education spending is at recored levels is pretty misleading, when that has to be funded by a 0.8% increase in budget. 

 Tyler 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Babika:

> Sounds off topic but nit really as it comes back to the point "what does the National Park Authority intend to do with the revenue raised?"

Presumably to spend on National Parky types of things like it does with all its other revenue. You might think the NPA is wasteful/unnecessary/badly managed etc but that’s a different discussion to how it funds itself. 
Similarly, anyone saying things like ‘I’m happy to pay if they build a toilet, bus stop etc.’ is actually saying I want the Council or whoever to spend more on these things, again that is a different argument.

 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

I think the PDNPA are missing a trick. Why not go the whole way and introduce a climbing licence? It works in fishing with the rod licence. Fleece the public of a few more quid to take part in their personal hobby.

7
 mrjonathanr 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

A sort of 'pay per pad'?

 PaulJepson 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

One good thing is that it might encourage more car sharing, when before people might just 'meet at the carpark'. 

1
 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrjonathanr:

Exactly. Or if trad then £80 a year will cover you for a rack of 8 cams, 8 wires and 8 draws. Caught with any more and it’s a £2500 fine. £160 a year will cover you for three disciplines offering a generous discount for those who might trad and boulder on the whole but partake in the odd day on bolts or a rare bimble up a frozen downfall in crampons. Who could possibly argue against such a cash raising policy seeing as all climbers are well off and can afford a few quid. All this at a time when climbing is trying to increase its inclusivity which will be largely made up of poorer inner city types. What a laugh.

9
 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Howard J:

That argument might stand if the PDNPA were proposing building new car parks or announcing a major maintenance effort on the existing ones, but they’re not. None of the Stanage car parks have had anything done to them in the time I’ve been climbing other than I presume some strimming to the immediate landscape (which may just be sheep grazing!), if that’s worth £5.50 per car per day for the couple of days worth of man hours a year then someone’s getting ripped off. 

Post edited at 13:37
2
 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to PaulJepson:

..and just move the problem down to Hathersage. “I’ll meet you in Hathersage and we’ll go up in one”.

1
 Tyler 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> That argument might stand if the PDNPA were proposing building new car parks or announcing a major maintenance effort on the existing ones, but they’re not. None of the Stanage car parks have had anything done to them in the time I’ve been climbing other than I presume some strimming to the immediate landscape (which may just be sheep grazing!), if that’s worth £5.50 per car per day for the couple of days worth of man hours a year then someone’s getting ripped off. 

How, given we have a govt in power that is hell bent on austerity and cutting funding to public bodies, would you like PDNA to fund itself in future?

2
 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Tyler:

You’ve answered your own question. Will we see the reversal of the charges should in two years should a more empathetic government come in to power and offer better funding? No chance. Once they’re here, they’re here to stay - and they’ll only ever get more expensive regardless.

1
 Howard J 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/planning-your-visit/parking

How do we use car park fees?

To maintain the car parks, trails, Stanage-North Lees and public toilets

Pay for litter removal (around 70 tonnes across the National Park each year)

 Oogachooga 26 Oct 2022
In reply to C Witter:

> Sociopath...

> 1) There is no bus

> 2) It is good for people to access the outdoors

> 3) The council doesn't do anything to maintain this land

> 4) There's a cost of living crisis

> 5) why should someone have to work an extra hour in an exploitative job making other people wealthy just to pay for leaving their car unattended?

> 6) More generally, those with property are getting wealthier at an accelerating rate, whilst those without are getting poorer. This doesn't apply per se to councils, but the principle here is that rents are about the redistribution of wealth upward.

> 7) Sell your car and give the value to Shelter and then you can come on here and write like a smug arse about car users paying for the privilege of trying to eke a tiny bit of joy out of this piece of shite existence called the C21st.

Well said 🍻 agree with that

7
 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Howard J:

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/places-to-visit/stanage-and-north-...
 

Bus

It is not possible to reach Stanage / North Lees directly by bus. The service that stops closest to the estate is the 272 from Sheffield to Castleton.

You can alight at Hathersage and walk up, although it is around 2 miles of relatively steep ascent. Alternatively, alight at Fox House or Surprise View, and walk across the moor.

It is also about a 2 mile walk from the terminus of Service 51 from Sheffield to Lodge Moor.

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/archive/2020-press-rele...

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/archive/2021-press-rele...

https://www.peakdistrictfoundation.org.uk/litter-pickers-at-the-ready/

Volunteer litter picking must cost them a fair bit? 

These say far more. Unless of course you can quantify exactly what they spend on path, car park and toilet up keep because it appears to be very little on the face of it. I’ve spent a considerable amount of time at Stanage over the last number of years and not once have I seen any works being done, or litter being picked. The toilet isn’t even open half the time. If any of this is planned to be improved then fair enough, but I haven’t seen or heard anything to suggest this is the case.

Post edited at 14:37
1
 Tyler 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> You’ve answered your own question.

I haven’t as I’m in no position to answer a question about what you want, I don’t know you. So how do you want PDNP to fund itself from now on? If they don’t introduce parking charges what do you want to see cut?
 

 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Tyler:

From the PDNPA 2021/22 final accounts:

> The Authority has maintained a satisfactory financial position in 2021/22, and this strength stems from the operation of four principal aspects of our financial strategy.

3
 Tyler 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Prices have risen 10% in the last year, they are expected to do the same in the next year. The govt are looking to cut public service budgets, i think the NPDA will need all the moment it can find. Is your view that they are fine and they should live within their current means? If so, how long for?

1
 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Tyler:

The PDNPA believe their finances were satisfactory in 2021/22 which also saw large price rises. Their useable reserves increased and borrowing decreased during that time too. They've managed to do this despite (as of 2016: https://thegma.org.uk/news/government-funding-national-parks-slashed-millio...) facing up to a 40% cut in direct government funding, in real terms. Obviously that's only increased since.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't look at increasing funding where they can, but nothing in the facts suggests they are facing an immediate struggle in the next two years before a general election, when future funding trends may become more apparent. I may have misinterpreted the accounts, and the language used in them (on my phone skim reading) so I'm more than happy to be corrected if that's the case.

Making such a controversial immediate change to directly hit visitors in the pocket to preempt any future struggle seems a little short sighted. 

If there was a vision laid out to improve facilities then it might be more agreeable to all, but there isn't. It's just more direct public outlay for the same old poor, limited facilities. 

Post edited at 15:47
5
 CantClimbTom 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

> ... blocking the road obstructing the highway is not an offence they can deal with.. 

Indirectly they can, because the logical pairing to implementing paid parking is to double yellow (or restrict in other ways) parking everywhere else, so the wardens can ticket you. In other places even if your vehicle is totally on the other side of a line and off the carriageway if any part of it is still within the highways boundary then the ticket is still valid. This is how it has happened in other places and Derbyshire council is unlikely to miss a trick

 Tyler 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> It's just more direct public outlay for the same old poor, limited facilities. 

Any idea why the facilities are poor and limited? Wouldn’t have anything to do with a lack of funds would it?

 rsc 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Tyler:

> Any idea why the facilities are poor and limited? Wouldn’t have anything to do with a lack of funds would it?

Absolutely. The PDNP budget is £6.7m. For perspective, the sixth form college I worked at had a budget of £10m in 2010, falling to around £8.5m in 2019 when I left. One normal-sized FE college.

The PDNP covers 1440sq km and deals with millions of visitors, which is now increasing rapidly.  They’re already a pretty skeletal organisation facing almost certain further cuts. 

This hasn’t just been imposed: they’ve opened a consultation. 

 TobyA 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Did you go to the Stanage users forum meeting a couple of weeks ago? I didn't this year but when in the past I have, there's normally lots from the PDNP on what they're up to. Also BMC Peak Area meetings tend to stay abreast of these matters, although obviously no one had heard about this proposal last week at the last meeting. By the way you can join via zoom if you can't make it to Bamford for the meetings.

 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to Tyler:

I don’t want to be seen to be repeating myself but if there was a proposal for improving them with the additional raised funds then it’d be more palatable. But there isn’t.

3
 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to TobyA:

No I’ve long since moved from New Mills so Stanage and surrounds are now a pain in the arse 2 hour drive across West Yorkshire than the 35 minute saunter it used to be, so a visit anywhere in the Peak is a rarity. 

 mrphilipoldham 26 Oct 2022
In reply to rsc:

The PDNPA are only directly and financially responsible for a tiny fraction of that area, unlike the 100% of that of your local college and it’s grounds. It’s a bit of an unfair comparison. 

1
 rsc 26 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Sure, they’re very different organisations. If you prefer, look at Derbyshire County Council’s £140m budget. Different responsibilities again, I grant you- but the point is that the Park Authority is tiny in comparison, with vast aims (if not direct responsibilities) and a budget that is shrinking in real terms.
I go to Stanage often and like being able to park for free, close to the crag, in a landscaped, well maintained car park. But I don’t feel it’s a god-given right. And I’d like the Park to be able to continue their work preserving the Peak District.

 Offwidth 27 Oct 2022
In reply to TobyA:

>Also BMC Peak Area meetings tend to stay abreast of these matters, although obviously no one had heard about this proposal last week at the last meeting.

That's because it's not a new thing. The proposals went through the area meeting a good while ago...people are just waking up to the consequences of past decisions. It's maybe one of the reasons the PDNP are confident their finances are just about OK. Personally I'd fully support the change if the parking income was ring-fenced to the estate and/or helped subsidise public transport to it. In the hundreds of times I've visited I have never had to park on verges once and I suspect most responsible climbers would say similar. I don't resent paying for parking in the slightest but do worry about people less well off than I am... as for the seriously poor I doubt very much they can afford to run a car. The number of climbers arriving on their own in a car pisses off a bit... we should all try to car share more for the environment and to not block limited parking spaces.

On Rob's subject of pensions... the valuation mechanism of DB   has been broken for some time. On the unfunded schemes the government makes significant additional income from the size of contribution increases the mechanism falsely implies are needed. If people are unaware of the scope of the profits this can lead to, just look at the Miners scheme.  The Telegraph were almost apoplectic about the government taking this over (despite a deal they would take 50% of any surplus)...the valuation scheme showed we would load the taxpayer with huge deficits...the result is a surplus so large that it has given an annual half a billion in profit for the government. Think like a control engineer: when scheme assets are growing well, and scheme membership is stable and pension payments are stable, a dial saying contributions need to increase rapidly shows the dial is broken or measuring the wrong thing.

1
 Gav_92 27 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

Cycling with a climbing pack isnt the end of the world, in fact id encourage it for many mountain routes

3
 fred99 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Gav_92:

> Cycling with a climbing pack isnt the end of the world, in fact id encourage it for many mountain routes

Possible if you live in/near Sheffield, and again if you live there an annual ticket to park a car would probably work (financially).

Not quite the same for people who live a fair distance away but still a relatively easy drive (but an almighty epic cycle journey) - say south of Birmingham - who want a change of scenery for their climbing/walking.

The problem is that some people are seemingly centring their views based on local climbers/walkers, who can indeed use alternative transport methods, and who can easily identify the routes & times of same. When you extrapolate to the rest of the population - and after all, the area is a National Park - then different problems exist for others wanting to (occasionally) visit. Or should the Peak District become for "local" climbers/walkers only ? If that is the case then any funds from national government should be discontinued - could the locals then financially support their Park on their own ?

3
 Neil Williams 27 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

If I'm going to drive from say MK for a day on Stanage, a fiver extra is small change to the £40 or so on fuel.  Thus it does encourage those from closer by to use other options if feasible.

I'm not totally anti car.  Their use just needs to be managed, and the cost of the space they take up paid for.

Post edited at 11:29
8
 Offwidth 27 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

If you can afford a drive well over an hour and looking at roughly 45p per mile travel costs (according to Inland Revenue expense rates), the proposed parking costs are a good bit smaller than travel costs.

I'll say again I've never needed to verge park at Stanage and one of the reasons for that was there were almost always spaces available in the pay and display Plantation parking. Those spaces..... clearly caused by a parking charge, given the packed verges I too often drove past.... were a benefit to me as a travelling climber (my journey is typically one hour) as the extra parking charge was trivial compared to my desire to climb there (and a lot smaller than my travel costs).  I'm against the current proposed system as it looks like sticking plaster and is ignoring the bigger problems:  properly looking after the estate bequeathed to the PDNP for public use; state underfunding of the PDNP; maintaining affordable access; and the overall conservation issues (including travel).

1
 mrphilipoldham 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> That's because it's not a new thing. The proposals went through the area meeting a good while ago...people are just waking up to the consequences of past decisions. It's maybe one of the reasons the PDNP are confident their finances are just about OK.

This is a point I was wondering last night. If this scheme isn't so far taken in to account with the park's financial planning, would an increase in self-funding give the government more reason to cut their central funding? If they're seen to be increasingly self sufficient, albeit at a detriment to the on the ground users then why wouldn't they? Especially the current government, if they were to continue in power post 2024. It might be prudent to consider whether the park will end up better off in the long run, or whether it'll be the status quo and just the public all the poorer for it.

Post edited at 11:56
 Offwidth 27 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Spot on. Given the partial ways the tories in the last decade allocate money I should also imaging there is nervousness in NP leadership about biting the hand that feeds (finances have to look OK in public!?).

I'd add that although I think the PDNP needs more money, it also needs management reform. I'll see if I can find a link that was circulating a couple of years back about their listed priorities taken from the public copies of their management minutes. Access and Conservation were barely mentioned nearly everything was about governance, finance and planning.

Post edited at 12:09
2
 Godwin 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> If you can afford a drive well over an hour and looking at roughly 45p per mile travel costs (according to Inland Revenue expense rates), the proposed parking costs are a good bit smaller than travel costs.

> I'll say again I've never needed to verge park at Stanage and one of the reasons for that was there were almost always spaces available in the pay and display Plantation parking. Those spaces..... clearly caused by a parking charge, given the packed verges I too often drove past.... were a benefit to me as a travelling climber (my journey is typically one hour)

When you phrase it like that, climbing is quite startling. If you live 30 miles away, the return trip £27.

I was chatting with a bloke once, a logistics expert, and he reckoned that people dissociate the price they pay filling the car, with individual journeys. 

I would have thought a climbers bus from Sheffield, or even from the train station would work, dropping at a few points, Stanage, Millstone, Froggat, Bamford ¯_(ツ)_/¯. I am not sure how boulder pads would be accommodated.

 Dave Hewitt 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Godwin:

> When you phrase it like that, climbing is quite startling. If you live 30 miles away, the return trip £27.

Those kind of figures always seem to me to be overstated. For comparison, in hillwalking terms, I quite often have a day on the Vorlich/Stuc pair of Munros from one of the usual northern starting points (occasionally Ardvorlich, much more often the quieter Edinample). That's just under 30 miles from my house in Stirling. The car is an old diesel Polo and for a long time, in fuel terms, a fiver would cover the 60-mile round trip - maybe six quid to be on the safe side. With prices having gone up it's certainly more now, but when I went there again just a week or so ago I put £8 of fuel in afterwards and that took the gauge up to higher than when I'd set off. Clearly there's wear and tear etc on the car to factor in as well, but I'm sure it's not £20 for a journey such as that.

Incidentally, I agree with mrphilipoldham upthread when he says "last pennies are spent for a few litres of fuel each month for a day out doing themselves some good". I don't regard myself as hard up, but margins are tight (haven't had work for a couple of years and am still some way short of getting the state pension) and these days I rarely drive more than 75 minutes for my hill outings, eg Lawers rather than Blackmount/Coe - haven't been to the latter for several years. This is because of cost factors, at least in part. If it was a case of having to pay to park at Vorlich/Stuc then I'd probably not often go there much either, because of the additional cost - and there's not a bus to Lochearnhead/Crianlarich from Stirling even though it's a main road. There are plenty of people worse off than me who are making the same kind of assessments and decisions just now, and and who are finding it harder and harder to get out.

Post edited at 13:15
 fred99 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> If you can afford a drive well over an hour and looking at roughly 45p per mile travel costs (according to Inland Revenue expense rates), the proposed parking costs are a good bit smaller than travel costs.

Inland Revenue expense rates are an awful lot greater than the cost of running my car - which was around a quarter of that figure the last time I checked. I think you'll find they must factor in depreciation over a period of only a couple of years or so. My car was second hand (at 105,000 mile) when I got it, and that was a few years ago. Depreciation is minimal when you have the sort of cars us plebs can afford.

 Offwidth 27 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

The rate is what it is and the revenue are not exactly known for giving tax breaks away on fantasy numbers. Costs do drop for large mileage but IR have lower rates for above 10,000 annual miles on business (25p per mile).

Congratulations by the way at keeping your total running costs at almost half current stated average fuel costs per mile, of around 20p per mile. It's especially amazing for Stanage visits given the busy narrow and hilly local roads with sheep and bikes. You should write a book on how you do it ...certain to be a bestseller.

I hear blather all the time about how old cars don't cost anything to physically maintain. IMHO it's either pure and significant luck, more usually bs, or a home mechanic with access to cheap parts. Oldish high mileage cars being used regularly (anything like average milage) are going to cost more than £500 a year on average to keep on the road before fuel, tax and insurance (most links quote a lot more on average for old cars). For those old cars just being used occasionally the cost of annual insurance, tax, service, MOT etc becomes a bigger fraction of cost per mile travelled. Old cars are also nearly always less environmentally friendly.

10
 Offwidth 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Last pennies go further if you actively seek out fellow outdoor enthusiasts struggling to make ends meet. Better for the environment as well.

I'm disgusted with the quality of pubic transport in many UK rural areas and that poorer locals are being forced out of owning property (increasingly even renting or heating their home) or practically being able to afford to travel around to live, let alone have a health enhancing break. Yet in practice the loudest complaints I hear about parking are from those who can afford to pay. 

1
 mrjonathanr 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

If it really cost £90 for a 200 mile round trip, eg to N Wales, I'd think about changing car.

 Dave Hewitt 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> Last pennies go further if you actively seek out fellow outdoor enthusiasts struggling to make ends meet.

That makes it sound like I only started a few weeks ago and don't ever go out with chums! But even leaving that aside, don't forget that - up here at least - it's not long since there were stern edicts from politicians and health officials about the perils of car-sharing during Covid. And Covid hasn't gone away and people are still nervous about car-sharing and often not willing to do it, especially now that infection rates are on the rise with winter approaching.

> Better for the environment as well.

Lots of people, me included, are trying to do their best insofar as they can, but they're also seeing folk such as the well-known well-off person in these parts trotting around in her helicopter for meals out and wondering what's the point as the people with money/power/influence are just having a laugh.

> I'm disgusted with the quality of pubic transport in many UK rural areas and that poorer locals are being forced out of owning property (increasingly even renting or heating their home) or practically being able to afford to travel around to live, let alone have a health enhancing break. Yet in practice the loudest complaints I hear about parking are from those who can afford to pay. 

I agree with you about public transport but again that's getting worse rather than better. There's not now a proper bus service from Stirling (hardly a small place) to Dollar - it's a case of trying to fit in with school buses at best - and Muckhart not much further away doesn't now have a bus service to/from here at all. And there's the Lochearnhead/Crianlarich situation as mentioned - I'd happily use my bus pass to get to Ben Vorlich if I could. Meanwhile, the much-favoured Glasgow gets endless infrastructure improvements and has regular buses in all directions. Grrr...

PS - And as for the "pubic transport" situation you mention, that's even worse...

 Rob Parsons 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Godwin:

> I would have thought a climbers bus from Sheffield, or even from the train station would work, dropping at a few points, Stanage, Millstone, Froggat, Bamford ¯_(ツ)_/¯. I am not sure how boulder pads would be accommodated.

There used to be a bus service which ran in Summer and gave access to (among other places) the popular end of Stanage. I used it on occasions, but it was often more-or-less empty, and it got discontinued through lack of use.

 Offwidth 27 Oct 2022
In reply to mrjonathanr:

Maybe I need to change mine. It currently costs me £70 return in petrol in my eco car for a 350 mile return trip (with 150 miles over that 200 on lower fuel consumption roads but with normally two of us and fully loaded with climbing stuff etc). That's 20p a mile. I buy nearly new estate cars at significant discount and run them until they become expensive (normally adding around 80,000 miles in 8 or so years)....so after allowing for the average fractional depreciation, insurance, rescue cover, MOT, service, repairs, general maintenance, and cheap car tax, it works out at around 20p a mile (inc over 10p a mile depreciation on average). So £90 for 200 miles is only a tad under my typical costs (and above 10,000 miles annually on expenses you only get an allowance of 25p a mile, where I would make a big loss).

Post edited at 15:44
5
 Howard J 27 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

The HMRC rate is intended to cover all the costs of running a car, including fuel, servicing and repairs, maintenance, depreciation, insurance and road tax. It is of course an average, and an individual's own running costs may be less than that, or more.  Nevertheless it is important to bear in mind that the true cost of a journey includes far more than just the cost of the fuel.

Those who look at this in narrow terms of parking provision are missing the point.  Parking charges are a crude form of visitor tax which ensures that at least some visitors make a financial contribution to the work PDNP does to manage the national park and provide them with facilities. We should have learned from the last decade or so that lack of funding for public services usually results in the withdrawal of services and loss of jobs rather than greater efficiency.

Of course I'm not happy that I'll have to pay in future, but I can't think of a non-selfish reason to object to it. I am more concerned that the introduction of charges might result in greater enforcement of verge side parking where the paid-for provision is inadequate - Dennis Knoll for example, which has only 10 spaces anyway, and these are often not all available if people park badly.

 Offwidth 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

In my experience most outdoor types don't seem worried with car sharing since people got jabbed and a minority but significant percentage of climbers never cared about covid risks anyhow. I car share with a range of people from 82 downwards. At Kendal Mountain Film Festival last year you might have been forgiven for thinking there was a parallel world without covid (albeit some people I knew caught covid there).

Post edited at 16:05
 Offwidth 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Howard J:

Tbh Dennis Knoll has always been full every time I checked midweek, so I struggle to see how it could get worse... I've always parked off the road in other places for High Neb etc,  or gone back to the Plantation. Overnight van parking seems much more common at Dennis Knoll than it once was.  For weekend trips to Stanage at the Popular End I either arrive very early, get very lucky (with someone leaving) or park at the Plantation car park (where there have always been spaces...but tbf I haven't been while they cut the number of spaces for clearing the infected larches). 

In reply to Godwin: 

> I would have thought a climbers bus from Sheffield, or even from the train station would work, dropping at a few points, Stanage, Millstone, Froggat, Bamford ¯_(ツ)_/¯. I am not sure how boulder pads would be accommodated.

if i’m bouldering in the Llanberis Pass, i usually get the bus up from Nant Peris or over from Bettws. Never had a problem with pads even on the busiest days. Either stood with them, or sat under them on the luggage rack.

 Alkis 27 Oct 2022
In reply to Godwin:

45p covers a lot more than fuel, it's maintainance, insurance, VED etc. My journey from Nottingham to Stanage and back is 80 miles and costs me around £16 quid in diesel in my T5 with current prices.

 Neil Williams 27 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

The IR lower rate of 25p per mile is the marginal journey cost (though a bit low for many cars now).  The 45p includes a contribution to purchase and servicing.

 Howard J 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> Tbh Dennis Knoll has always been full every time I checked midweek, so I struggle to see how it could get worse...

It could get worse if they clamp down on verge parking once charges are brought in, as they did (or tried to do) at the Plantation. The official parking area at Dennis Knoll is totally inadequate.

 Neil Williams 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Howard J:

If parking is profitable they may be motivated to create more official areas rather than cars littering verges.  Another benefit.

 The New NickB 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

I buy cars in a similar way to you, although probably slightly smaller and more efficient cars (currently got a Seat Leon). I reckon over the lifetime of my ownership at current fuel prices the car costs me between 32p and 35p per mile. About half that is fuel. If I changed my car more regularly, or bought new, or had more expensive tastes, that could easily rise to 45p or even more.

Post edited at 08:25
 remus Global Crag Moderator 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> If parking is profitable they may be motivated to create more official areas

I'll believe that when I see it!

 Michael Hood 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Alkis:

T5 as in a Volvo?

If so, shouldn't you be using petrol, or do you mean a D5?

2
 Alkis 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

VW Transporter MK5, which is usually called a T5 by pretty much everyone.

 Offwidth 28 Oct 2022
In reply to The New NickB:

My estate car is rated as efficient and low emission, hence the £30 annual road tax. The reality when fully loaded, with a lot of stop start driving that too often comes with snowdonia weekend getaways, is maybe less good.  

PS I mistyped part of my analysis... obviously around 40p a mile is a tad under 45p.

 planetmarshall 28 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> ..and just move the problem down to Hathersage. “I’ll meet you in Hathersage and we’ll go up in one”.

well, there's good public transport links to Hathersage so...good?

3
 mrphilipoldham 28 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

Climbers live in places other than Sheffield, you know?

1
 planetmarshall 28 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Climbers live in places other than Sheffield, you know?

Meeting in Hathersage - a place with more parking spaces and public transport links, and car pooling to Stanage - a place with fewer parking spaces and no transport links, seems like an improvement to me. 

4
 mrphilipoldham 28 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

I’m sure the residents of Hathersage will be delighted. 

1
 deepsoup 28 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Climbers live in places other than Sheffield, you know?

I'm agnostic on the question of P&D parking.  But while we're challenging assumptions it might also be worth mentioning for the thread that people other than climbers visit Stanage.

Moving away from Stanage for a mo, I was a bit surprised to see there's a P&D machine proposed for the tiny parking area by the cottages at Ravensdale.  P&D machines are really quite expensive to install and maintain - will it really be worth the PDNPA's while installing one there?

Post edited at 13:42
 kevin stephens 28 Oct 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

Unfortunately it's becoming cheaper and easier (but not for the customer) to just put up a sign with a URL requiring everyone to pay by smart phone

 mrphilipoldham 28 Oct 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

Yes I have always hesitated before writing 'climbers' but it's UKC so I kept it climber-centric.. which probably does a disservice to the potential size of the problem. 

 planetmarshall 28 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> I’m sure the residents of Hathersage will be delighted. 

Because previously it was a quiet backwater unsullied by outdoor tourists?

2
 Michael Hood 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Alkis:

> VW Transporter MK5, which is usually called a T5 by pretty much everyone.

Ah, didn't know that, but I do now 😁

 Michael Hood 28 Oct 2022
In reply to kevin stephens:

> Unfortunately it's becoming cheaper and easier (but not for the customer) to just put up a sign with a URL requiring everyone to pay by smart phone

And if you haven't got a smartphone (or even if there's no signal)?

 Michael Hood 28 Oct 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

> I was a bit surprised to see there's a P&D machine proposed for the tiny parking area by the cottages at Ravensdale.  P&D machines are really quite expensive to install and maintain - will it really be worth the PDNPA's while installing one there?

In the schedule, Ravensdale has n/a in the "Charging hours", "Scale of Charges" and "Method" columns so presumably no P&D machine is going to be going there.

 deepsoup 28 Oct 2022
In reply to kevin stephens:

Personally I don't really have a problem with that, I generally find it more convenient to pay by app/phone/online anyway.  I'm not sure it's currently possible to pay online or by app/phone to park in PDNPA car parks even for those of us who would prefer to is it?

Bit of a moot point in this case though I think, because it does seem that what PDNPA are proposing is indeed an actual ticket machine.  If they are going to start charging, I think I'd prefer them to at least make a bit of revenue out of it rather than spend all the income and perhaps a little more besides installing and servicing the machine and enforcing the charges. 

(For a very long time they didn't bother to enforce the charges at Stanage Plantation because it simply wasn't cost-effective to do so.  I wonder if it is even now.)

 deepsoup 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

> In the schedule, Ravensdale has n/a in the "Charging hours", "Scale of Charges" and "Method" columns so presumably no P&D machine is going to be going there.

Ah - so it does!  My mistake then probably.

They have put a temporary sign up there (and at Upperdale) listing the charges, I saw them yesterday but didn't stop to check the small print - perhaps they've just put those signs up in all their car parks whether they're due to get a machine or not.

 steveriley 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

Happy to pay a couple of quid, not happy to pay £6+. Direction of travel is only ever upwards. Not hugely confident of the PDNP clarity. A load of double yellows at Curbar removed plenty of useful and unobtrusive parking, Curbar Gap parking didn't suddenly got better. Just because some people park badly shouldn't spoil it for everyone. Moving around to a couple of venues can make for a classic day out, this puts the damper on that. We all own the Park, it's there for our health and wellbeing as well as for people to live and work. Public transport is only occasionally viable, so we're stuck with cars. We should share and minimise travel but climbing keeps a lot of us sane. Apart from trips to climb pointless rocks, my carbon footprint is pretty small. I can defend that.

2
 mrphilipoldham 28 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

No, because it's already busy enough and another what.. 25, 50, more(?) cars parked up all day are going to be quite noticeable when available parking isn't exactly expansive as it is. Because let's not forget, the whole premise of parking in Hathersage would be to avoid paying up at the crag so they're going to be parking on street.. until that becomes a problem and double yellows or parking bays go down. It's also probably worth noting that not every car that goes to Stanage goes through Hathersage. You can approach from Bamford, or Ringinglow (as I would). So you could have two separate cars that'd never have contributed to traffic in the centre, having to go in to the centre to meet up therefore increasing traffic flow, on Coggers Lane and The Dale approaches too.

Post edited at 15:00
 Rob Parsons 28 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Meeting in Hathersage - a place with more parking spaces and public transport links, and car pooling to Stanage - a place with fewer parking spaces and no transport links, seems like an improvement to me. 

Are you suggesting that merely as a way for the individuals involved to save the proposed parking fee?

How do you envisage the Hathersage to Stanage 'pooling' would be organized in practice, given it would likely involve people who don't know one another. (Or are you only thinking of things like large 'club' outings - in which case, the pooling should start much further away than Hathersage.)

I'm confused about what exactly you have in mind.

 jimtitt 28 Oct 2022
In reply to steveriley:

> We all own the Park, it's there for our health and wellbeing as well as for people to live and work.

No you don't.

They are there to conserve and enhance their natural beauty and provide recreational opportunities for the public. Hard to see car parking fitting in with the first part.

9
 planetmarshall 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> I'm confused about what exactly you have in mind.

Car pooling from a location that has public transport to one that does not. I didn't really think that this required a lot of explanation but there you go.

 Rob Parsons 28 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Car pooling from a location that has public transport to one that does not. I didn't really think that this required a lot of explanation but there you go.

Same question:

"How do you envisage the Hathersage to Stanage 'pooling' would be organized in practice, given it would likely involve people who don't know one another. (Or are you only thinking of things like large 'club' outings - in which case, the pooling should start much further away than Hathersage.)"

 mrphilipoldham 28 Oct 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

The 'beauty' of our national parks is entirely man made. It's also a contradiction to conserve and enhance. You either conserve as is, or seek to improve which will in ecological timescales end up looking starkly different. 

 planetmarshall 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Same question...

I must admit to being quite mystified that this is apparently a very complex arrangement.

I live somewhere on the Hope Valley line, near a train station. I contact a friend to go climbing at Stanage. I get a train to Hathersage. We then drive to Stanage, using one car instead of two.

Post edited at 16:54
 wercat 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Petrafied:

The solution is to ban parking altogether, rich and poor, and then there would be a demand for cheap buses so rich and poor could use those.  Letting some who can afford the price park over those who can't is just divisive.

of course you could have a National Trust membership carpark as that could be a very cheap way of accessing car parks over a wide area when costs are taken over a year

Post edited at 17:09
5
 TobyA 28 Oct 2022
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Earlier this summer I climbed at Stanage with a visiting climber from Peru. He was staying in Sheffield, he got the train to Hathersage where I met him, and drove to the crag in my car. Isn't that how car pooling works?

Post edited at 17:07
 wercat 28 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

a sweeping and untrue statement.  Just think about why it might not be true.

Could be that you have not lived long enough or had enough life experience to find out that it is untrue but I think most sensible people could see why

> There is literally no one who drives who cannot also afford to pay for parking, and if additionally this encourages climbers to put a bit more effort into car pooling then I am all for it.

Post edited at 17:12
3
 jimtitt 28 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Yup, and it's hard to see how allowing indiscriminate parking or building carparks everywhere is achieving either of these objectives.

 FactorXXX 28 Oct 2022
In reply to TobyA:

> Earlier this summer I climbed at Stanage with a visiting climber from Peru. He was staying in Sheffield, he got the train to Hathersage where I met him, and drove to the crag in my car. Isn't that how car pooling works?

That must be a very rare scenario though and my experience of car pooling is amongst people that already know each other and take it in turns to drive.

1
In reply to jimtitt:

> No you don't.

> They are there to conserve and enhance their natural beauty and provide recreational opportunities for the public. Hard to see car parking fitting in with the first part.

you got some thumbs down, but you’re dead right about ownership.

In the UK's National Parks, the majority of land is owned by farmers, private landowners and conservation organisations such as the National Trust. The National Trust is said to own 25 per cent of the Lake District and 12 per cent of the Peak District National Park.

 TobyA 28 Oct 2022
In reply to FactorXXX:

> That must be a very rare scenario though

I suspect that with lots of 'find a climbing partner' facebook groups and the like, it's not that unusual. But more my point was that I didn't get why various people seemed to find planetmarshall's suggestion of car pooling from public transport points so complicated!

 steveriley 28 Oct 2022
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> you got some thumbs down, but you’re dead right about ownership.

Not literally of course, but we have a right of access and a shared love of some pretty special places. It seems unduly hair shirted to lobby for a privilege to be taken away or charges added. It’s a money making proposal, there’s no way charging for something previously free and with no obvious extra costs can be anything other. We’re not going to get some kind of better tarmac at Burbage Bridge in exchange for our 4/5/6 quid. Public transport isn’t viable for most of us.

2
 Rob Parsons 29 Oct 2022
In reply to TobyA:

> I suspect that with lots of 'find a climbing partner' facebook groups and the like, it's not that unusual. But more my point was that I didn't get why various people seemed to find planetmarshall's suggestion of car pooling from public transport points so complicated!

I don't find it complicated. I just don't think that in practice there would be many 'use cases' (to employ that cliche.)

 Rob Parsons 29 Oct 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

> I must admit to being quite mystified that this is apparently a very complex arrangement.

> I live somewhere on the Hope Valley line, near a train station. I contact a friend to go climbing at Stanage. I get a train to Hathersage. We then drive to Stanage, using one car instead of two.

Yes, it works in that special case.

 tjdodd 29 Oct 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Yes I have always hesitated before writing 'climbers' but it's UKC so I kept it climber-centric.. which probably does a disservice to the potential size of the problem. 

And what about all the hillwalkers on the forum?  It is not just UKC, it is UKH as well.

3
 mrphilipoldham 29 Oct 2022
In reply to tjdodd:

I didn't realise the forums crossed over - my mistake.

 LakesWinter 29 Oct 2022
In reply to Andypeak:

This is clearly worse than 1000 Hitlers.

 mrphilipoldham 29 Oct 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

Well indiscriminate parking occurs on existing infrastructure so whilst it might be a short term eye sore, you'd also be a bit odd in finding it offensive and a road not. Thankfully no one is on about building more car parks so that's a moot point, really.

1

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