climbing vs surfing

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 shaun stephens 24 Apr 2020

So i’ve just been listening to radio 2 and their was a gentleman on there who was saying that all the locals in Newquay are being allowed to go surfing as this fits with health and well-being at this time. Now i don’t want them to stop but what about the health and mental well being of us guys desperate and i do mean desperate to get out on some rock in order to keep sanity in the positive.  Discuss

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In reply to shaun stephens:

I think the key word is "locals"

Al

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 deepsoup 24 Apr 2020
In reply to shaun stephens:

They're not supposed to be surfing, just like we're not supposed to be climbing.  The locals in Newquay should be getting their exercise from walking, cycling or running same as the rest of us.

> Now i don’t want them to stop

Assuming the bloke on the radio wasn't bullshitting, the RNLI and the Coastguard do want them to stop. They've been asking people not to play in the sea for the time being in exactly the same way the mountain rescue teams have asked us not to play in the hills or on the crags.  And the vast majority of people have been complying with that.

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 Wainers44 24 Apr 2020
In reply to shaun stephens:

Interesting then that the story locally is that the Police have told the surfers they should not be in, and it's not allowed?

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

But i am local as in less than a mile from two amazing climbing venues but The Bmc say don’t go. !!

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 deepsoup 24 Apr 2020
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> I think the key word is "locals"

I don't.  I know highly skilled professional sea kayaking coaches on Anglesey who are quietly going mad currently, and could easily put their kayak on a trolley, walk it down to the beach and go for a paddle with about the same level of risk as John Arran soloing a V Diff.

They're not doing it.  Out of respect for the Coastguard and the RNLI who have been begging people not to play on/in the sea for now, out of solidarity with their clients and the rest of us who have also had to put our hobbies on hold, and because they don't want to be seen to be setting a bad example for those who could walk a little further, or a little further still, or drive a little way, or drive a bit further, or actually quite a long way..

I don't know about surfers or whether there genuinely are a lot of people surfing but I have to say I'm finding it increasingly depressing reading the bleating on here - the thought that climbers are going to allow tennis players, anglers and people who are desperate ("and I do mean desperate" as the OP says) to have a game of golf (golf!) to make us all look like selfish arseholes by having the self-discipline to refrain for now while we do not.

Post edited at 13:11
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 joem 24 Apr 2020
In reply to shaun stephens:

Its clearly a controversial one.

https://magicseaweed.com/news/surf-bans-public-shaming-and-the-art-of-civil...

I personally think that if you live near enough the beach to walk there then why not surf for your exercise, its different from golf of fishing because its dam hard work. Most people surf on beaches without lifeguard cover without any bother in normal surfing conditions in the UK. 

The solidarity argument is daft am I not going to sit out in the garden because not everyone has a garden. I can't walk to a beach so i won't be surfing but I don't begrudge those that can surfing. 

Surely it's pretty easy to go without golf or fishing as they're both a bit sh*t.  

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 joem 24 Apr 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

I've seen people on more than one occasion since lockdown hitting golf balls around public parks which is moronic at the best of times.

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 Tom Valentine 24 Apr 2020
In reply to joem:

> Surely it's pretty easy to go without golf or fishing as they're both a bit sh*t.  

I assume that's a tongue in cheek comment rather than a case for special treatment for climbers.

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 joem 24 Apr 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

yes tongue firmly in cheek with that one.

 Oceanrower 24 Apr 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> They're not supposed to be surfing, just like we're not supposed to be climbing.  The locals in Newquay should be getting their exercise from walking, cycling or running same as the rest of us.

Not saying they're right or wrong but you do know that's not an exhaustive list, don't you. They're just examples...

 oldie 24 Apr 2020
In reply to joem:

> Its clearly a controversial one. I personally think that if you live near enough the beach to walk there then why not surf for your exercise, its different from golf of fishing because its dam hard work. Most people surf on beaches without lifeguard cover without any bother in normal surfing conditions in the UK. <

Surely if locals can surf then logically locals should be allowed to swim? The trouble with that is that many more people will want to do that and beaches at seaside resorts could become crowded. Once started it might also be hard to police with people probably coming in from other areas. If swimming is allowed on major beaches then more people would start using other remoter, less safe places and perhaps rivers. Increasingly hard to police and possibly more work for the rescue services.

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 joem 24 Apr 2020
In reply to oldie:

Where does it say you can't swim? seems like exercise you undertake alone? 

Imagine if you say let people go out for runs or walks or even bike rides soon enough you'll have people sunbathing, picnicking  and having BBQs very hard to police.......... oh wait. 

In reply to deepsoup:

Everybody's sport is more important than everybody else's, even golf. Climbing is not unique here. There are positively manipulated risk assessments everywhere. 

But, of course, we are climbers, it is different for us. 

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 Mr Lopez 24 Apr 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> They're not supposed to be surfing, just like we're not supposed to be climbing.  The locals in Newquay should be getting their exercise from walking, cycling or running same as the rest of us.

Ahem:

https://www.carvemag.com/2020/04/surfing-is-exercise-but-dont-take-the-mick...

https://www.surfingengland.org/latest-corona-virus-update-22-03-2020/

 deepsoup 24 Apr 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

More nuanced than I expected it to be when I clicked the link:

".. if an expert surfer is surfing two-foot waves on their local beach, chances are nothing is going to happen. But the problem here is that we are all kooks and we all push limits and none of us like being told what to do.

Last week I saw surfers of intermediate ability and questionable ocean knowledge paddling out into waves they clearly couldn’t surf very well. Learners were rescued right around the country. Meanwhile, at the expert end, some people were still going for it and pushing performance limits in crowded surf which in itself increases the risk of injury.

The common thread here is that we all want to surf, but no one I’ve ever rescued or treated for fins cuts or injuries thought they were a problem before they became one.

Beginners are all like “Oh I didn’t know if I jumped into a rip at low tide with fifteen-foot waves, no leash, shitty Tesco wetsuit mid-winter and smashed my face into my board repeatedly I’d need rescuing.” Intermediates usually make basic a mistake. Experts get unlucky, or don’t kick out/drop-in/get dropped in on. That’s the way it goes.

So, how do you tell someone they are a problem when everyone thinks they are Eddie Aikau?

In my area, most of the top surfers have chosen to lead by example and not surf. I’d say try to do the same otherwise everyone will want to go in and we will face proper bans."

Here's a link for you:
https://rnli.org/news-and-media/2020/april/09/rnli-urges-people-not-to-use-...

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 deepsoup 24 Apr 2020
In reply to joem:

> I've seen people on more than one occasion since lockdown hitting golf balls around public parks which is moronic at the best of times.

Phew.  Well thanks.  I'm relieved to hear that climbers have after all at least cleared the staggering low bar of "less moronic than golfers".

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 mik82 24 Apr 2020
In reply to joem:

In Wales you're not allowed to swim, surf or do anything aside from walking, cycling or running.

 Mr Lopez 24 Apr 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

Oh right, sorry. I thought we were talking as to whether people can go surfing as opposed to what personal opinions various individuals hold on the matter.

Thanks for that link btw, i'll pass it on to the RNLI staff i'm acquainted with who are surfing daily.

Cheers

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 Oceanrower 24 Apr 2020
In reply to mik82:

> In Wales you're not allowed to swim, surf or do anything aside from walking, cycling or running.

Would you care to show me where it says that?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2020/353/regulation/8/made

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 The Pylon King 24 Apr 2020
In reply to joem:

> yes tongue firmly in cheek with that one.


Thats a shame, I thought I had a kindred spirit there!

 mik82 24 Apr 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

Of course

 As one of the purposes of the restrictions is to reduce pressure on the Welsh NHS, there is an expectation also that the reasonable excuse to exercise does not include activities that involve a significant degree of risk (for example swimming or other exercise at sea, or in lakes, rivers or other waterways). Exercise, therefore, should be done locally and generally be limited to walking, running and cycling."

https://gov.wales/leaving-home-exercise-guidance

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 Oceanrower 24 Apr 2020
In reply to mik82:

Exactly. Guidance...

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 deepsoup 24 Apr 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Oh right, sorry. I thought we were talking..

Oh right sorry, I thought we were talking like two grown-ups.

Your links are valid and conclusive, whereas my link to the RNLI's official statement is just "personal opinions various individuals hold on the matter" and anyway doesn't really count because you are "acquainted with" RNLI staff and know better.  Riiiiiight.

For the benefit of the thread (not you Mr Lopez, I've been trying to cut down on the pointless bickering on here so if you're going to be weirdly passive-aggressive about this I think we're done) - let me just try to make it clear what I'm saying here..

Personally I don't have a problem with anyone climbing, surfing, paddling or whatever as long as they're not a problem for anyone else.  The trouble, as the surfer writing the article Mr Lopez linked to above, is that people don't think they're going to be a problem until they are one.

The further problem for climbers is that in many places we are reliant on good will for access and in the current atmosphere of fervid moral panic and knee-jerk self-righteous condemnation it would be all too easy to destroy that good will. 

Some dickhead breaking his leg on Dartmoor could easily derail access negotiations in Cumbria, a mountain rescue in North Wales could lose us a crag in Northumberland.  So on behalf of climbers everywhere who have something to lose if just one individual makes us all look like selfish dickheads some time this week - nobody is really desperate to climb, we merely want to, so please, pretty please, for the time being can we all just f*cking not?

Post edited at 15:38
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 joem 24 Apr 2020
In reply to mik82:

I'm not advocating a ban, Especially as I've managed to get an overuse injury running but it feels like if you keep going down this road cycling is increasingly hard to justify. Just think about it, you fall off a surfboard land in nice cushioning water, you fall off your bike and that tarmac comes up to meet your face rather quick.

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 mik82 24 Apr 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

Indeed, guidance, but in practice this means that swimming, surfing, sailing, kayaking etc fall outside of the "reasonable excuse" to leave the house . This guidance is also what the police will follow and they have been pretty strict about things. Driving to exercise anywhere is also not viewed as reasonable - and most people do not live within walking distance of the water (All the beach car parks are closed anyway if anyone did try)

Post edited at 15:53
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 joem 24 Apr 2020
In reply to mik82:

I think it varies depending on where you are in the UK. 

In England it appears that any form of exercise would be considered reasonable surfing is definitely exercise, if you don't believe me give it a go, and driving a short way to exercise is apparently also "reasonable". As a great man once said "can does not mean should" but if you're a regular surfer who's surfed for a long time and you live within a short walk of the beach ( neither of these apply to me, I'm not climbing or surfing at the moment) then why not.  

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 oldie 24 Apr 2020
In reply to joem:

> Where does it say you can't swim? seems like exercise you undertake alone?  Imagine if you say let people go out for runs or walks or even bike rides soon enough you'll have people sunbathing, picnicking  and having BBQs very hard to police.......... oh wait. <

You're right it doesn't say you can't swim (or surf, or climb etc) and it needn't even be alone...household members are OK. However when popular beaches have been shown on TV there seem to be just a few walkers....in this weather swimming would be common if it wasn't being actively discouraged by local police, rightly or wrongly. While the government has not given a precise definition of permitted exercise it does emphasise "walk, cycle, run" which is the basis and spirit of what most are doing. 

The BMC has strongly recommended abstaining from hill walking and climbing saying: "the potential negatives are starting to rack up too: the risk of having an accident and using up valuable NHS resources, the risks (of accidents and transmission) whilst travelling, the risk of bringing infection into a rural community with limited medical resources, the complications of mountain rescue. "(March statement I think) Some similar negatives could apply to both surfing and swimming.

And I do think there would be a snowball effect of openly permitting  swimming.....vastly more people enjoy swimming than climbing or surfing.

 joem 24 Apr 2020
In reply to oldie:

I'm not convinced that swimming in the sea is ever especially popular, mainly as its bloody freezing, but a lot of people would have to drive quite a distance to get there. 

I'm not climbing (well that's not quite true I built a home wall the week before lockdown) right now there's quite a few complex reasons for this but I actually think that the risk of injury isn't really one of those for me and I disagree with the BMCs stance on this. 

I don't think that surfing or swimming do have the same risk profile as climbing open water swimming is pretty niche and surely more comparable with running or cycling than climbing. 

Anyhow I'd rather not get into too much of confrontational discussion on this as this purely academic as I can't surf at the moment without driving to the beach which I'd regard as unreasonable. I hope you're having a pleasant afternoon and have managed to get into the sun, in a responsible way of course, ill be going for a bike ride now. 

 Dave B 24 Apr 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

I'd love to be in the sea... Its sunny. There have been wave days and flat days. Both are fun on a prone board..

But I'm not. I would be asked not to continue volunteering for the RNLI if it went, would not be offered seasonal employment in the summer, my wife would probably divorce me if I ended up in hospital being scanned by her, I'd probably face a disciplinary in the club I founded for bringing it into disrepute (*) and my governing body might do something similar. 

Wasn't so hard not to go after all... 

* I'd probably have to initiate it myself. 

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