UKH

/ Access change to running hill pits ?

Glenn S. on 10 Oct 2018

Running Hill Pitswent to running hill pits today ,3 of us , arrived at Second(spanner) Quarry,the one with Sodom and Gomorrah, closely followed by a group of walkers who muttered something about" climbers" then got on a walkie talkie,shortly after we were approached by guy in a comedy tartan ghillie/gamekeeper outfit,he asked us to leave as the access agreement had changed from this September, something about the estates insurance?When challenged he became irate but walked off, we contacted Rob at BMC access he was unsure about situation thinks they could be trying it on   ,he's looking into it ,we left and went to Hobson moor 

Post edited at 18:06
Luke90 on 10 Oct 2018
In reply to Glenn S.:

The current BMC access database entry suggests that the quarries are on CROW open access land.

Lusk - on 10 Oct 2018
In reply to Glenn S.:

Did you ring up first?
When we used to go to Pits, we'd ring Crowther at Upperwood House to get the OK.

FactorXXX - on 10 Oct 2018
Glenn S. on 10 Oct 2018
In reply to Lusk:

No didn't ring up , never have done in the past didn't realise it was necessary, Rob at BMC thought that a couple of the quarries weren't covered by the open access agreement , he is looking into it 

Glenn S. on 10 Oct 2018
In reply to Luke90: thanks, looks like it was a blagg, in 40 odd years of climbing never experienced this before

r0x0r.wolfo - on 11 Oct 2018
In reply to Glenn S.:

Exposter sounds as if he's talking about Upperwood Quarry not Running Hill Pits. I don't believe the same people own both, but I could be wrong I guess.

In terms of access, the landowner has grouse shoots on that land so there's been quite a lot of paraphernalia such as feeders, cages, spent cartridges, shit loads of grouse and the like. It also looks like their trying to catch things as there a couple of traps set up in the quaries.

Now there is some confusion about this but I don't believe every quarry at the pits is on CROW land. The land owner certainly treats the quarries nearer to the estate differently to the rest and they are a lot more used by the owners. Recently there's been some extra fencing put up at the entrance and also some big rock's have appeared lining the road where climbers sometime park a little down the hill from the crag though they don't really do that much. 

Have been there a lot recently but have kept a pretty low profile and have not run into anyone yet.

p.s. If you go back to the pits with a magnet on a stick there's an obvious belay above sticky fingers which takes nuts being pulled up into a crack. There's a nut sat  about 0.5m down from the other day. Slot is not quite wide enough to get your arm in. Not sure when i'm next back. 

 

Post edited at 00:47
mrphilipoldham - on 11 Oct 2018
In reply to Glenn S.:

We were asked to leave by a gamekeeper, after throwing around various spurious reasons he eventually relented and asked us to just phone the owner ahead of a visit so they knew who was on the land. We decided to phone the owner there and then, after said keeper had departed, and he had no problem with us being there and confirmed that we didn’t need to ask on CRoW land. Requested we kept any dogs on leads, which we didn’t have. This was earlier in the summer. Gamekeeper being a grade A... 

Post edited at 08:46
Calvi - on 11 Oct 2018
In reply to Glenn S.:

I'm up there at least twice a week, being going to the Pits for nearly 40 years, never been asked to move, even when there is a shoot sweeping through.

Hardonicus - on 11 Oct 2018
In reply to Glenn S.:

Next time to politely tell them to piss off. Know your rights man. And don't be ringing the Crowthers either. You've every right to be up there.

Name Changed 34 - on 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Hardonicus:

> Next time to politely tell them to piss off. Know your rights man. And don't be ringing the Crowthers either. You've every right to be up there.

I was out this way on Wednesday evening , and looking into the eighth quay from above one can see not a trap but a holding pen for birds.

(note the birds the Crowthers have been raring are for some time now are pheasants not grouse.)

I have not got clear definitive maps to hand, I am sure that one  of the quarries (8).  .if not the two (7 and 8)  are outside the CROW  covered lands.

The Crowthers have a long history of not liking climbers  or walkers, indeed as I have relayed in the past closing a shot gun with the insinuation that if not removing yourself from the land could have consequences of a lead injection this was in the late 60s 

It would be  sad if another quay was lost in Saddleworth (Den lane ,the best parts of) However, if Crowthers are planning to work birds North of the home farm Upperwood house and last weekend beting and shooting was taking place on thet lower slopes of the quarys. Along with even more new  Buts, and also constructed this year more new wire fence, it is going to need the best of diplomacy to be allowed to continue to climb in the quarries outside of Crow 

Yes know your rights, but know them ! and let's not ratchet up the (problem?) 

can anyone link to a crow map at 1: 25,000. Online I can only see 1:50000 and it's not showing boundary's  

Hardonicus - on 09 Nov 2018
craig h - on 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Glenn S.:

6 out of the 8 quarries at Running Hill Pits are on CROW land so there should be no access problems to them. The 7th and 8th quarry do lie outside the CROW area, and have known people to be asked to leave.

I've lived and climbed in the area for over 30 years and have never had an issue with access even when you had to phone up. However in recent years I have heard of quite a few stories of people being asked to leave areas while walking / climbing in CROW areas, and the Uppermill Estate - Private Land signs do not assure people that they do have legitimate access to these areas. 

Name Changed 34 - on 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Hardonicus:

I have had this link sent to me,. Zooming in it shows the field boundary's . 

Now I don't know how authoritative  or up to date it  is . 

http://www.rowmaps.com/showmap.php?place=Oldham&map=BingOS&lat=53.5422&lon=2.11594&lonew=W

Looks as it opens in Oldham but will move East and zoom

 

Post edited at 16:54
Name Changed 34 - on 09 Nov 2018
In reply to craig h:

That being so, is the BMC guidance of no aces issues out of date for 7&8 quarries ? Should we phone if visiting 7&8 ?  will consent be granted?

Anybody think it's a good idea  to push this to the BMC and ask them for clarification?

craig h - on 09 Nov 2018
In reply to Name Changed 34:

You use to have to phone for access to the whole of Running Pits, was never denied. I've phoned to get access for off road parking on the Isle of Skye Road either for photography or as access for a few to get to Standing Stones without issue as there no longer is parking places (that's a different topic though).

7 and 8 quarries are outside the CROW area, so the only way not to be told to "get off my land" would be a phone call. The other quarries are on CROW land, so just smile nicely and continue to climb if approached.

 

Name Changed 34 - on 10 Nov 2018
In reply to craig h:

.

> 7 and 8 quarries are outside the CROW area, so the only way not to be told to "get off my land" would be a phone call. The other quarries are on CROW land, so just smile nicely and continue to climb if approached.

Therefore, do you think we should we be telephoning if we want to climb in 7&8 and should BMC update its access to reflect this, given a wish to keep  any good will of the crowthers, especially considering the other rock that they are custodians of.

My opinion is that a note on the access to 7 and 8  would be appropriate, they are not popular quarries, and do not see a lot of footfall. However if people are not aware that seven and eight for outside Crow it could have the potential to become heated and cause bad feeling if challenged. 

 

mrphilipoldham - on 10 Nov 2018
In reply to craig h:

There is parking for Standing Stones, see the BMC RAD.

Tom V - on 10 Nov 2018
In reply to Hardonicus:

I think the climbing community should be wary of being over aggressive in this situation. especially where quarries 7 and 8 are concerned. An outcome like Yellowslacks or Woolley Edge benefits no-one.

mrphilipoldham - on 10 Nov 2018
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I’d love to know why the dislike on this? The parking is further along the road (having left Greenfield) at a large lay-by with enough space for 10+ cars. Walk in is then via Rimmon Cottage ruins. 

Tom V - on 10 Nov 2018
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Probably someone like me who thinks you can't tick any route in the Chew unless you've walked in from the Clarence...   

Dan Wright - on 14 Nov 2018

I went up there last wednesday. We were in the second quarry for a bit, then headed down to intro wall quarry. heard lots of gunshots and then some (hilariously dressed) hunter came up to us shouting and threatening to cut our ropes as I was belaying someone up. He was a bit of a prick about it to be fair. "you ruined my day so I'll ruin yours!".  When asked why we couldn't be there, he said the insurance had changed or something along those lines. 
Fortunately, we broke up the hunt and they had to leave because we were there. Unfortunately, we also left because we weren't sure if the guy was actually the land owner. The land owner would know it's open access and not try to blag it's private property, I would imagine?

Frank the Husky - on 14 Nov 2018
In reply to Dan Wright:

Sounds like your typical entitled blood sports wanker. Was it a horse mounted hunt?

If you were in a quarry that's covered by CROW then you have nothing to worry about, and it's certainly nothing to do with insurance.

Name Changed 34 - on 14 Nov 2018
In reply to Dan Wright:

Hi Dan,  your post is a wind up ?

 

However if not,  you must have been there on the same day as myself,  see my post in this forum of the November 9th .. the opening line being

I was out this way on Wednesday evening ,

On my journey I saw no hunt, I did see a Quad bike on its rounds.

Gun shots are often heard in the vicinity,  due to Pennine shooting sports association, having its home at Diggle ranges. see   http://www.diggleranges.com/  

To help you understand, it will be good if you can look up [Try Google] the difference between a Moorland Shoot and a Hunt. Especially the type of hunt that you can brake up.

You may note that although in your words ‘ they had to leave because we were there’ this is not likely. As the moor is a Grouse shoot  [although now overstocked with Pheasant] it is the norm for betters to wave large flags to ‘lift and drive ’ the birds to the shooter, who is ready in the hide. ~ new hides all over the moor also~    so you may well have bean of good service.   It is more likely I surmise  that A: you did little in the way of fostering good feelings between keeper and climber.

B: you have not helped to keep the climbing aces that we enjoy on the lands owned  or controlled by the ‘‘owners’’ or the custodian of the  the  Pits.

C: you were not there. More over if you were there, why did you leave as 1; you had fortunately broken up the hunt. your words  2: you had doubt as to his being the land owner,  I surmise if you had believed him to be the land owner, you beleve, he would have had the authority to ask you to move on?   You would of course have already cheeked that last Wednesday, was not a closed day on the area of  the Crow, and on cheeking you will have noted the restrictions on the  Gun Range.  If so, you would have known he would on this day,  had no right, to ask you to leave the Crow areas.

 

Please Please  lets all do our best to keep the good will and aces [s] that we enjoy in and OUT of the Crow areas.

 

craig h - on 15 Nov 2018
In reply to Name Changed 34:

You do seem to know a lot about my local area and as "Name Changed 34" possibly attempting to make a point?

Be helpful if you did make that point, rather than beating about the heather bushes, plenty doing that up there at the moment ;-)

Tom V - on 15 Nov 2018
In reply to craig h:

I understand his point completely.

Since you are a local and seem to think it counts for something , tell me this:

What's to stop Crowther deciding that the Pits would be a good slurry repository?

Obviously tipping it downwards is easier than spreading it horizontally.

Yes you can say he wasn't allowed to do it by some by law or other but by then the damage has been done.

ste_d - on 15 Nov 2018
In reply to all:

Folks, I'd encourage all to report any issues great and small to the Bmc, they are aware of the problems but the more reports they receive the better

 

Dan Wright - on 25 Nov 2018
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Afternoon!  Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I have only just checked this thread again.  It was a grouse hunt, not mounted. I apologise, but no, I did not check whether it was restricted that particular day, I shall endeavor to in the future. Maybe my previous post was poorly worded. I feel I caused unintended offence - it was merely an update (albeit a colloquial one) on the situation with access to the pits. Allow me to clarify.   It was on the 31st Oct - Halloween. We were in the sixth quarry. There were a lot of people running about shooting and waving big flags around - they turned up after we had already started climbing. I don't know if we actually broke up the hunt but they all walked off looking grumpy and drove past, glowering at us as we were packing up the car.  I tried to be as polite to the man who accosted us as possible, and tried to sensibly mediate a tricky situation with an already irate man - whilst belaying my girlfriend whose rope he threatened to cut as almost the first thing he said. It was merely our presence that created the bad feeling and not our attitude. As I said, we packed up and left as soon as she was down. I asked about access, stating I thought we were on Open Access land and he said something about the insurance changing.  Hopefully this explains slightly more and will reassure you that I did do my best to maintain relations and - I thought - remained remarkably cool about the whole situation.  Sorry again if I handled the situation poorly - as I said I did my best. I was not intending to make a point, merely update. I will check whether it is restricted in the future.

Post edited at 18:01
Frank the Husky - on 25 Nov 2018
In reply to Dan Wright:

I don't think you need to make any apologies. Someone associated with the hunt threatening to cut your ropes encourages zero tolerance of his complaints about his ruined day or his lies about insurance. In my experience, hunters have a sense of entitlement that is almost as great as the environmental and ecological destruction their "sport" causes.

Personally, I'm glad you broke up their hunt and ruined their day. If they didn't know (or chose to ignore) the fact that they were shooting on CROW land then more fool them.

digby - on 26 Nov 2018
In reply to Frank the Husky:

It's quite possible for access to be restricted on CROW land!
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-and-the-coastal-margin-how-to-restrict-public-access

Simon Caldwell - on 26 Nov 2018
In reply to digby:

But any restrictions will be shown on the maps at http://www.openaccess.naturalengland.org.uk

and should also be signed at access points.

Offwidth - on 26 Nov 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

This landowner of course has a clear history in regards to CRoW, and lives in a farm above where a red kite was shot recently, when supposedly no one was there.

In the past, parked cars in the area mysteriously got damaged, parking places mysteriously got blocked by boulders.....

I'd advise people to politely assert their rights of access under CRoW but if things get heated, withdraw and contact the access team at the BMC on: robd@thebmc.co.uk

johnwright - on 26 Nov 2018

> I think the climbing community should be wary of being over aggressive in this situation. especially where quarries 7 and 8 are concerned. An outcome like Yellowslacks or Woolley Edge benefits no-one.

In reply to Tom V: Hi Tom V can you explain what you are saying about Woolley Edge and access issues etc.

descender8 - on 28 Nov 2018
In reply to Frank the Husky:

I think it's time to report this to the police shotgun licence officer !  Any wiffs of threatening behaviour is an instant revoke of your licence ! 

Hunting is bad enough - to then stop others enjoying the countryside and threaten people Is a chip on your shoulder too far !!

Tom V - on 28 Nov 2018
In reply to johnwright:

Property which is outside CROW is just farmers' property,

Quarries 7 and 8 are not definitively in CROW land, it seems. (Not sure if there's much there from memory)

In the past where climbers have antagonised landowners in disputed access situations, farmers have attempted to make crags less attractive by pouring old oil/grease down the crag (Woolley) or using explosives to remove some features of the rock (Yellowslacks). 

 

Name Changed 34 - on 06 Dec 2018
In reply to Dan Wright:

Dan,  the 31st not the 7th ! no matter.  No apology needed to me ether

I note the BMC have changed the asses statement on the 14/11/18 ....To 2 pits outside of the CROW and the others inside the CROW       QED if your in the CROW you have the right to climb.

The NW pits 7,8 are out side CROW and  the bmc have not said if asses will be granted to climb in 7,8 

Sadly I don't see it being given

 

 

johnwright - on 06 Dec 2018
In reply to Tom V:

Thanks for the reply. I was around when the farmer greased up a lot of non climbable rock at Woolley Edge Quarry but he managed to spoil a couple of decent areas which at the time really pissed me off. I think the problem was he thought that we climbers were using his crappy fence post for a belay. The fences were so bad that my dog would have pulled them over easily. This was long time ago and you can still see the remains of the grease. Must have bloody good stuff he used.

Post edited at 22:54
Tom V - on 07 Dec 2018
In reply to johnwright:

In the age of the Internet it really wouldn't be that difficult for Crowther to work out  where to pour a tank full of slurry.

Never mind 7 &8 quarries, even those that are in c.R.O.W. land are still his property and where is the legislation that prevents him from using them as he sees fit if not in breach of planning regulations.?

I mention this because I think that the best policy is one of appeasement rather than assertion.