Abseil pegs on The Strand

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 Martin Haworth 30 Jun 2021

One of the 3 pegs at the abseil point on The Strand (E2 5b) is very loose. Still two pegs in place which seem good. I have left a wire in situ as a back-up anyway.

 GrahamD 30 Jun 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

That'll be the pegs at the rop of pitch 1 of the Strand ?

4
 CantClimbTom 30 Jun 2021

Dare I provoke the debate on whether it's ok to replace existing but questionable pegs, with titanium/expoxy anchors by a local working group. While being at pains to point out I'm not supporting placing them in new locations.

Post edited at 12:26
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In reply to CantClimbTom:

Brave man! Opening that can of worms, thin end of the wedge, etc.

1
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I may have remembered wrong, but aren't they already steal pegs set in with resin?

In reply to CantClimbTom:

That's a great idea and I'd support it, but unfortunately it'll never happen as that would, apparently,  take away the adventure.

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 kevin stephens 30 Jun 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth: In the olden days we used to do a pitch to rocks further back and then walk round. The only reason for the Strand abseil is convenience. It’s not as if there’s a need to protect the fauna above the crag or anything. My view is that there should be no fixed gear at the top of the Strand. Conversely I’m not averse to fixed gear (peg or bolt) for the Castell Helen abseil

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 Dave Ferguson 30 Jun 2021
In reply to kevin stephens:

> In the olden days we used to do a pitch to rocks further back and then walk round. The only reason for the Strand abseil is convenience. It’s not as if there’s a need to protect the fauna above the crag or anything. My view is that there should be no fixed gear at the top of the Strand. Conversely I’m not averse to fixed gear (peg or bolt) for the Castell Helen abseil

I tend to agree, you have to top out on the other routes there so why not the strand? I don't think you need a fixed ab station at Castle Helen either, there are two bomber nut placements. I guess the answer would be to equip all of the upper tier routes with ab stations, personally I don't see the need, but it will happen eventually as us dinosaurs die out. 

2
In reply to Sandstone Stickman:

They are stainless pegs, hammered in, no resin. 

2
 Dave Garnett 01 Jul 2021
In reply to kevin stephens:

> In the olden days we used to do a pitch to rocks further back and then walk round. The only reason for the Strand abseil is convenience. 

The second pitch of the routes on that wall was often the crux!

1
 Rick Graham 01 Jul 2021
In reply to kevin stephens:

> In the olden days we used to do a pitch to rocks further back and then walk round. The only reason for the Strand abseil is convenience. It’s not as if there’s a need to protect the fauna above the crag or anything. My view is that there should be no fixed gear at the top of the Strand. Conversely I’m not averse to fixed gear (peg or bolt) for the Castell Helen abseil

An attempt at an independent observation.

The true style for sea cliff routes would be to scramble down and traverse in somehow , like the Littlejohn / Darbyshire ethics in the early 70s. Ie no abseiling or other aid.

The Strand is the cleanest route on the upper tier purely because of the abseil point. A lot of the routes I did there in the 70s are unclimbable now. Looking at the old Holliwell photos , the routes took a lot of initial cleaning.

2
 Adam Long 01 Jul 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Pretty sure I found traces of glue around the others. I assumed the one had been left loose to distract you from the fact the others were glued!

I wouldn't call them pegs either, they appeared to be made of round stock and the holes are suspiciously round also.

 GrahamD 01 Jul 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

> The Strand is the cleanest route on the upper tier purely because of the abseil point.

I don't think this is true at all.  When I first did the Strand mid 90s, it was because I spotted it as the obvious clean line of the face and parties weren't routinely abbing off it then.  Its not like its a particularly onerous top out and walk off.

2
 Luke90 01 Jul 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

> The Strand is the cleanest route on the upper tier purely because of the abseil point.

It's in Extreme Rock and is the only 3 star route below E5 on the Upper Tier, so that might also have something to do with it!

In reply to Martin Haworth:

I liken these situations to road crossings outside schools. Everyone recognises thar what exists is lacking but nothing will be done until there is a fatality or near fatality to force the change.

I doubt the second pitch enthusiasts fancy testing a factor 2 fall onto those anchors. 

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 GrahamD 01 Jul 2021
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> I doubt the second pitch enthusiasts fancy testing a factor 2 fall onto those anchors. 

So a bit like a 1001 other *** routes, then.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

I posted about the loose peg for safety considerations and to keep people informed. Obviously with it being UKC I should have guessed the thread would turn into a fixed gear debate. 

I’m all for adventure climbing and limiting unnecessary fixed gear, but these pegs have been there for some time and are established, and anyone who wants to do the pitch above them is welcome to it.

I climbed Park Lane/Doomsville (E2 5b) and it was enough adventure for me in one day.

 GrahamD 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

If you are climbing E2, the second pitch isn't a big undertaking.  By the sound of some posters anyone would think it was death on a stick, whereas it's much more solid and technically straightforward than entire E2s elsewhere at Gogarth.

The pegs are only there as a convenience for some.  Their absence would make no difference to the route grade.

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 Sean Kelly 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

The other point to bear in mind is that excessive abseiling does eventually trash the climb!

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 Dave Garnett 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

> The true style for sea cliff routes would be to scramble down and traverse in somehow , like the Littlejohn / Darbyshire ethics in the early 70s. Ie no abseiling or other aid.

And, in this case, that's not the extra challenge it sometimes is! 

 Rick Graham 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> I posted about the loose peg for safety considerations and to keep people informed. Obviously with it being UKC I should have guessed the thread would turn into a fixed gear debate. 

> I’m all for adventure climbing and limiting unnecessary fixed gear, but these pegs have been there for some time and are established, and anyone who wants to do the pitch above them is welcome to it.

> I climbed Park Lane/Doomsville (E2 5b) and it was enough adventure for me in one day.

You used to be able to climb both Park Lane and Doomsville as two routes that had a common stance. I doubt the second pitch of PL and the first of Doomsville have had an ascent for 25 years.

For me, fixed abseil points could be the saviour of trad climbing. Modern rock boots and encroaching vegetation ensure enough ascents of routes are only acheivable with an easy way off.

The old guard might not like it but will just have to accept the facts.

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 Adam Long 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> I liken these situations to road crossings outside schools. Everyone recognises thar what exists is lacking but nothing will be done until there is a fatality or near fatality to force the change.

Absolute nonsense. The most serious hazard on this route currently is the loose rock between the top of the crack and the belay. Make a mistake and you stand a good chance of a big fall and/or killing your belayer. Some cleaning has been done but the rock is inherently shattered. The security of the belay does nothing to help that other than to encourage people to spend more time exposed to the hazard.

Gogarth is a serious place and always has been. If you want an environment where someone else has controlled the risks beforehand go to the climbing wall.

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In reply to Rick Graham:

> For me, fixed abseil points could be the saviour of trad climbing. Modern rock boots and encroaching vegetation ensure enough ascents of routes are only acheivable with an easy way off.

> The old guard might not like it but will just have to accept the facts.

Not sure I agree with this, I don’t think any parts of Gogarth need any additional fixed gear.

Maybe a better option could be an annual Gogarth Climbing Festival? Some of the more obscure routes could get cleaned and see multiple ascents which would then keep them clean for a while. Maybe I will try and organise something when I retire next year.

1
 Steve Wetton 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

> For me, fixed abseil points could be the saviour of trad climbing

This, 100%. Climbing is supposed to be fun,  not some homage to a bygone era! So much trad in the Lakes has been improved in recent years by the installation of ab stations. It makes sense from pretty much every angle.  

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 S Andrew 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Steve Wetton: 

Surely only type 2 fun?

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 SteveSBlake 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I first did the Strand in the mid 70s. I repeated it about a month ago. I led the second 'pitch'. There is only about 6' of rock. It then turns into 40 to 50' up an unprotected steep heather slab, pulling on heather stalks and standing on holds that have become loamy slopers. The rock has all disappeared. It would need a huge amount of traffic to recover it. As it is, the second pitch can hardly be recommended, it's silly. The pegs make sense.

We also did Britomatis. The belay pegs are very decayed, they might contribute to holding a fall, but it wouldn't be much of a contribution. Again silly, they should be replaced.  

I'm all for adventure, and have as traditional a background as anyone, but sometimes I'm left shaking my head at the arguments that are made around fixed gear on the crags.

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 GrahamD 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Steve Wetton:

> This, 100%. Climbing is supposed to be fun

Trad climbing is not supposed to be "fun".  If all you want is fun and nothing deeper, go to Alton Towers.

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 GrahamD 02 Jul 2021
In reply to SteveSBlake:

Abseiling down popular *** routes does not make sense to me.

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 jezb1 02 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> Trad climbing is not supposed to be "fun".  If all you want is fun and nothing deeper, go to Alton Towers.

So we’re not allowed to have a fun time trad climbing?! I’ve been doing it wrong for twenty something years.

Trad climbing, and any other climbing can be whatever you want it to be.

 GrahamD 02 Jul 2021
In reply to jezb1:

> So we’re not allowed to have a fun time trad climbing?! I’ve been doing it wrong for twenty something years.

> Trad climbing, and any other climbing can be whatever you want it to be.

Of course you can have fun climbing.  It's just not the be all and end all.  If you go into a serious environment like Gogarth with a "it's only fun" attitude, you are just an accident waiting to happen.

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 Lankyman 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Adam Long:

> I wouldn't call them pegs either, they appeared to be made of round stock and the holes are suspiciously round also.

Just like pitchfork tines?

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 SteveSBlake 02 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

OK, I'll reluctantly bite. Does it make more sense to start up the pitch with the possibility of being under discarded; heather, earth, pebbles and other random shite, with in the worst-case  a flying leader clutching two handfuls of vegetation.

Or wait the modest time it takes for a second to be lowered from the stance, and the leader to ab off? The route and belay are then clear and no one is working in the allotment above.   

 Dave Ferguson 02 Jul 2021
In reply to SteveSBlake

> Or wait the modest time it takes for a second to be lowered from the stance, and the leader to ab off? The route and belay are then clear and no one is working in the allotment above.   

But people are working in the allotment on the other routes on the upper tier, would you like abseil points on all of the other upper tier routes? or is the Strand a special case?

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 TobyA 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> The other point to bear in mind is that excessive abseiling does eventually trash the climb!

A bit like your comments on Bowfell Buttress being destroyed was it? Or at least "trashed" by winter climbers, might you be slightly over-egging your pudding once again here? What route has actually been trashed by "excessive abseiling"?

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 SteveSBlake 02 Jul 2021
In reply to Dave Ferguson:

I couldn't really comment on other routes, I've only topped out on two others thereabouts back in the 70s and don't recall them being an issue back then.  Perhaps they were cleaner, or perhaps I was more stupid....

Are they all 40 odd feet of unprotected pulling on heather?

Steve

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 Dave Ferguson 02 Jul 2021
In reply to SteveSBlake:

> Are they all 40 odd feet of unprotected pulling on heather?

Pretty much, yes. Certainly routes from Bezel all the way through  to Crowbar. The same applies to a lot of the main cliff routes.

 GrahamD 02 Jul 2021
In reply to SteveSBlake:

Have you done pitch 2 of the Strand ? Honestly for anyone purporting to be an E2 leader it's a breeze.

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 kevin stephens 02 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD: and not much worse than the approach to the foot of the climb

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 Sean Kelly 02 Jul 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Pad Me at Stoney, the slab route at Sheeps Tor are 2 off the top of my head!

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 SteveSBlake 02 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

Have you bothered to read my first post? I did it last month. But this is going the way these discussions do. It's becoming pointless. So, 'I'm out'.

 SteveSBlake 02 Jul 2021
In reply to kevin stephens:

Much worse than the approach, which is sketchy, but at least mainly on rock.

Au revoir.

 TobyA 03 Jul 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I haven't done Padme but just looked it up on the app and the recent comments, including one from yesterday, are that it's really good. Another comment was "first HVS, great and easier than loads of VSs I've done". So it's now on my wishlist! 😀

 climbingpixie 03 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> If you are climbing E2, the second pitch isn't a big undertaking.  By the sound of some posters anyone would think it was death on a stick, whereas it's much more solid and technically straightforward than entire E2s elsewhere at Gogarth.

I've done The Strand twice. The first time I topped out, the second I abbed off the pegs. Abbing down is by far my preferred option. I love a bit of adventurous choss climbing but I can honestly say that the top pitch has no redeeming features. It's not hard or scary, it's just a crap long vegetated slope. Logistically it's also a pain as you have to walk all the way back round to do another route, whereas if you ab you can get straight onto something else.

 Sean Kelly 03 Jul 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Oh it's certainly a cracking route, quite fingery from memory, about 35 years back. But it became fashionable to do reps on a top-rope as a training exercise, which certainly didn't help with the polish.

 Sean Kelly 03 Jul 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

That was the way we all finished the routes at Gogarth years back. I can still recall the shallow holes in the steep slope above, where all the seabirds used for nesting. A little like climbing steep steps on ice, but this is gravel and grass and quite unnerving.

 GrahamD 03 Jul 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

Gogarth not "convenient" - who'd have thunk it ? (that is convenient for the first party, not the party waiting for you to ab off pitch 1, obviously)

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 climbingpixie 03 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

I doubt the next party have to wait any longer for a pair to ab than they would wait for them to sort and swap gear and head off up the next pitch. As I said, if the top pitch offered any actual interest I'd be all for topping out but in this instance it really doesn't. And I'm all for a bit more convenience in trad, I'm always delighted to find an equipped ab point that means I get to avoid walking off and saves my feet for another route.

1
 climbingpixie 03 Jul 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I've done it on The Strand and I've done it on other routes but I just find that element of it unpleasant. It's one of the reasons I prefer climbing on South Stack to Main Cliff. Perhaps it's because I don't come from a mountaineering background - for me, the climbing is the interesting bit and I'd rather be able to get on with more of it than arse around on easy but sketchy terrain.

3
 Robert Durran 03 Jul 2021
In reply to climbingpixie:

Given that most routes on the main cliff seem to be a couple of pitches of decent climbing, a pitch of green pubes and a load of steep grass, maybe a few conveniently positioned and equipped abseil pistes would be in order there too so that people could get more out of their day. Might as well be bolts.

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 tmawer 04 Jul 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

"For me, fixed abseil points could be the saviour of trad climbing. Modern rock boots and encroaching vegetation ensure enough ascents of routes are only acheivable with an easy way off." 

I hear more and more of the still very active and extremely experienced  older climbers making this point Rick. I was at Trow Gill recently and some well known" faces" were talking about how many other countries they have climbed in have managed to get over their "black and white" thinking, and seem able to take a more nuanced stance around fixed gear, and making your point about routes becoming overgrown as people won't climb them, in part because of the difficulties of walking off. I climbed on Far East Raven the other day and couldn't face a second route and having to fight my way through tick infested bracken in the heat to do a second climb, we would probably have mustered the enthusiasm to climb another (currently dirty) route if it had had a lower off. 

5
 Simon King 04 Jul 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Or just stop all this messing about and stick a massive ground anchor in a la St Govans!

 GrahamD 04 Jul 2021
In reply to tmawer:

It's not "nuanced", it's dumbing down to the lowest common denominator.  Maybe something you can do if you are lucky enough to have endless sun kissed rock.

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 tmawer 04 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

I don't think we'll agree, which is of course fine, but i think that lower offs would lead to an increase in rock that could be enjoyed and i don't buy into the dumbing down argument either. Walking down takes no more skill, as far as i can see, than organising a safe decent from a lower off. 

1
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> Maybe a better option could be an annual Gogarth Climbing Festival? Some of the more obscure routes could get cleaned and see multiple ascents which would then keep them clean for a while. Maybe I will try and organise something when I retire next year.

Cleaning the upper reaches of the crag whilst it is at it busiest isn't the best of ideas. 

2
 TobyA 04 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

I think your view might be a bit stereotyped to southern European limestone. In the Nordics there is plenty of rock but it's hardly "sunkissed", well at least not for much of the year. Yet still they have, in certain places, chosen to use fixed gear ab stations on otherwise trad routes - for all sorts of reasons: convenience, environmental protection, safety and so on. That's pretty nuanced. Go and climb on  Hollenderan on Kvaløya, I doubt you'll find it very dumbed down despite the abseil piste (it's unbelievably brilliant as well!).

Post edited at 17:13
 GrahamD 04 Jul 2021
In reply to TobyA:

They have miles of rock, nevertheless,  with nowhere near the population pressure or adventurous terrain.  South of Scotland, Gogarth is about as adventurous as the UK gets and its only a couple of hours away from major cities.

Cutting a *** routes into a single pitch convenience climb at such a venue is, IMO, a pretty crap thing to do.

A few years ago, there was a welcome move to start removing sea cliff pegs but now it seems people want to revert to climbing styles 60 years old.

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In reply to tmawer:

I agree with your comments. I go climbing to go climbing, not to bushwhack, dig and prune or to hurt myself. I recognise that some choose to do this. The more climbing I can fit into the day the better.

Some crags, buttresses walls or routes would benefit from a more pragmatic, nuanced approach however opinions are so entrenched here, the arguments just go around and around.

There are some good examples of a mixed approach being taken on historic crags, Scafell springs to mind here. As usual, the real world and the rants of the Internet are quite far apart.

Leaving the upper slopes undisturbed may buy some good will with the rspb too as it will leave the ground nester less disturbed (this could be doubled edge though). 

Post edited at 18:40
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 Dave Ferguson 04 Jul 2021
In reply to tmawer:

> I climbed on Far East Raven the other day and couldn't face a second route and having to fight my way through tick infested bracken in the heat to do a second climb, we would probably have mustered the enthusiasm to climb another (currently dirty) route if it had had a lower off. 

Usually when we go to a single pitch crag, we just set up an ab point and either leave a fixed ab rope in situ or fix an ab point that you can pull your ropes through. You can then climb as many routes as you want and take down the ab point at the end of the day, with only one person walking off. It works really well and means that you're not faced with endless walk offs, which I agree can be quite tedious. There are also a few crags that you can base yourself at the top off, abbing down and climbing out as if it was a sea cliff. Personally I don't see the need for fixed ab points on single pitch crags. 

1
 tmawer 04 Jul 2021
In reply to Dave Ferguson:

Fair point and we often do this, but it takes a bit of planning, and on this occasion we didn't commit to a second route, i guess a lower off might have allowed us to cool of and build enthusiasm for a second route, thus cleaning it a bit as we climbed. 

 Steve Wetton 04 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> Cutting a *** routes into a single pitch convenience climb at such a venue is, IMO, a pretty crap thing to do.

The only 3 star thing about Strand is the first pitch.  Even 40 years ago when I 1st did it, the top pitch was just a filler to get you off the crag. 

However  I agree on your 2nd point  - if we're going to have lower offs, let's make them bomb proof. Any ideas?

1
 GrahamD 04 Jul 2021
In reply to Steve Wetton:

> However  I agree on your 2nd point  - if we're going to have lower offs, let's make them bomb proof. Any ideas?

Go to a "all you can eat" sport climbing venue.

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 Alex the Alex 05 Jul 2021

In reply to bolted lower offs in general:

Ive been climbing with a friend a la continental recently and he has a slightly different take on it. To him UK trad is a pretty unique way of approaching rock, and the self-reliance is a huge part of that. It requires a degree of commitment that isn’t needed when you know you have a good pair of titanium rings to strip gear from, set a practice line on, or escape a multipitch from. The time and effort and financial costs of having to retreat, or set up a line, are often what give routes that extra factor of commitment. Shibboleth would be a very different proposition if you knew there was a handy string of abseil points you could bail off if the last pitch looked too wet or too daunting. It might get climbed more often, but it would lose part of its character, and so some of the satisfaction of finally climbing it. 


There’s maybe more of an argument for lower offs on single pitch crags. But I reckon that’s partly consumerism and laziness. Its very rarely safety or environmental reasons, though those are often the straw men that get rolled out. Most of the time its that folks can’t be bothered to take 10 minutes to build a belay, cant be bothered to clip a small pair of trainers on for the descent, or can’t be arsed to set up an anchor to clean a route. If folks don’t clean routes now they won’t change their minds and pick up a brush because a pair of bolts have appeared (though admittedly the route may clean up through more traffic). Its totally elitist, but I can see bolted lower offs leading to more top-roping too, and having seen the carnival of top-roping in Canada and the US, I wouldn’t wish it on uk crags. 


It just seems like spoon-feeding, counting on someone else bolting a lower off for you. It bursts the bubble of self-reliance that uk trad climbing should be celebrated for. And its cliché but its true - once bolted lower offs become accepted in one place they’ll spread to the rest. If it helps clean up crag x, why not Polldubh, Neckband, or Sennen? Make bringing a small brush the norm instead, celebrate cleaning old routes, take tat and a knife, climb through the shit belay and belay elsewhere if the pegs are falling out, build a temporary descent ab for the day and enjoy the last walk down round the back. 

7
 The Pylon King 05 Jul 2021
In reply to Alex the Alex:

Well said!

2
 S Andrew 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Alex the Alex:

I’d vote for you.

1
 Rick Graham 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Alex the Alex:

Nicely put, have a like.

Your logic would have less strength if abseil point was substituted for lower off.

There is a world of difference between a few fixed abseil points and fixed belays or lower offs.

In an ideal world all climbers would contribute to the effort of constant route cleaning if more was required than frequent ascents. That does not happen ATM, human nature or possibly just laziness.

On a personal note , I used to be quite content to fix a temporary ab point for the day. Unfortunately this only works when you are the only party on the crag. Lost my gear too many times now.  Sometimes , however, getting the offender by the proverbial scruff has sorted the issue.

Post edited at 10:13
 Steve Wetton 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Alex the Alex:

Not many would disagree with the broad sentiments behind your post  - and I quite agree, the UK trad experience is varied and pretty unique in many cases. However, I've not heard anyone voicing a case for lower offs etc on all trad crags; outcrops, sea cliffs, mountain crags etc. What does come across in this thread is the need to recognise what opinion is saying, and to take an appropriately nuanced/differentiated approach. Who is arguing for lower offs on all belays on Sca Fell? Or Black Crag or Longscar on Pike O'Blisco? Nobody (as far as I am aware)  - one is a fabulous mountain multi pitch crag, the others delightful single pitch crags with nice pleasant walk offs  - but the nuanced line suggests the ab points on mountain crags such as Esk Buttress, and valley trad crags like White Ghyll  are welcomed. The lower off on Strand has been used for years  - that would appear to be what people want! 

1
 Rick Graham 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Steve Wetton:

If you could edit your last sentence to " fixed abseil point on the Strand ", please

 PaulJepson 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I'm not familiar with the crag but would a stake be possible? A big worry for a lot of people, it seems, is that putting fixed gear like bolts in would lead to more of the like cropping up and increasing the chances of bolts showing up on bold routes where pegs once were. A stake would provide what some people want (a safe, fixed descent) without adding what others don't want. 

3
 jezb1 06 Jul 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> I'm not familiar with the crag but would a stake be possible? A big worry for a lot of people, it seems, is that putting fixed gear like bolts in would lead to more of the like cropping up and increasing the chances of bolts showing up on bold routes where pegs once were. A stake would provide what some people want (a safe, fixed descent) without adding what others don't want. 

Wouldn’t be possible on The Strand.

 Mike Stretford 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Steve Wetton:

>The lower off on Strand has been used for years  - that would appear to be what people want! 

I agree. I seconded an active and passionate trad climber on this, and they dissuaded me from doing the 2nd pitch on the basis 'it's a bag shite' and we'd do better spending our time elsewhere. We went on to have a day of full on trad adventure. This is nuanced topic and not the British trad vs Euro convenience some are making it out to be.

 GrahamD 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> I agree. I seconded an active and passionate trad climber on this, and they dissuaded me from doing the 2nd pitch on the basis 'it's a bag shite' and we'd do better spending our time elsewhere. We went on to have a day of ...

Funnily enough, every time I've done both pitches of the Strand and done the short walk off, I've also followed it with a day of other routes (which also require a longer walk off).  An abseil from pitch 1 really isn't a significant time saver.

7
 Rick Graham 06 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> Funnily enough, ...  An abseil from pitch 1 really isn't a significant time saver.

Funnily enough , I doubt this statement has much validity.

 Graeme Hammond 06 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> Funnily enough, every time I've done both pitches of the Strand and done the short walk off, I've also followed it with a day of other routes (which also require a longer walk off).  An abseil from pitch 1 really isn't a significant time saver.

Not really arguing either way as i do like doing the traditional finishes of routes for the full tick/experience but perhaps if you plan on these things you can do them significantly quicker? 

For example on reaching a belay of a route where you want to  abseil off (or need to in some situations/crags), if there is an abseil anchor already installed I would untie and re attach the ropes into the anchors ready to abseil. Therefore when the second reaches me they can get straight onto the ropes and start descending, I can then quickly get onto the rope myself afterwards with little faff. I expect using this set up both off us could be a the bottom in less than 5 minutes and it only takes a fraction longer to set up the belay in this way, certainly less than climbing another pitch and walking round in most cases. Like abseiling for gear because a route is too hard for a second or if you both want to lead a route, it can be done extremely quickly once practiced. I can usually climb pretty quickly on easier terrain but I'd struggle to do the 2nd pitch of the strand, coil ropes and walk off as fast.

In reply to Graeme Hammond: On the issue of saving time it probably didn’t save much time as it was the last route of the day and after we abbed off we reversed the dodgy walk in and gully scramble to get back to the usual gearing up point.

On a wider point. The original post was just to make people aware of a loose peg, which is not something I would normally consider necessary but this abseil point is probably used a lot and often barely given a look at as many climbers will see stainless gear and think “ah thats ok”. Climbers see rusty fixed gear and they are much less trusting. Hence my original post.

As an example I recently also put some new tat on the abseil point at the top of Nexus (E1 5b) and Plexus, but didn’t consider that required a UKC post as it will be given more scutiny by anyone using it.

 SteveSBlake 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Mike Stretford:

I agree. I seconded an active and passionate trad climber on this, and they dissuaded me from doing the 2nd pitch on the basis 'it's a bag shite' and we'd do better spending our time elsewhere. We went on to have a day of full on trad adventure. This is nuanced topic and not the British trad vs Euro convenience some are making it out to be.

This...... 

Post edited at 16:42
 GrahamD 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Funnily enough , I doubt this statement has much validity.

Funnily enough, back to the gearing up spot, I think it does.

3
 Mike Stretford 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> On a wider point. The original post was just to make people aware of a loose peg, which is not something I would normally consider necessary but this abseil point is probably used a lot and often barely given a look at as many climbers will see stainless gear and think “ah thats ok”. Climbers see rusty fixed gear and they are much less trusting. Hence my original post.

I agree it will be an informative post to many.... so look on the bright side, all this talk is bumping that!

 Rick Graham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> Funnily enough, back to the gearing up spot, I think it does.

Only if you are back peddling


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