UKH

Just cycled the Hebridean way and down from Ullapool, and generally most motorists were fine, but oddly for me the worst were the too courteous ones, travelling behind me for ages, when I would have thought they could easily and safely pass me, I am not sure if they were being really nice or if they lacked confidence at passing, but I found it a bit disconcerting . I wondered if they expected me to signal them forwards, but thats not something I would do, as I let the driver make their own decisions.
Not a moan, just wondered if other people had come across this.

In reply to Godwin:

On the rare occasions this happens to me I tend to pull over, especially on a narrow country road (usually into a gate / field entrance) and let them past.

In reply to Godwin:

If you're convinced there's plenty of room to pass safely, I don't see any problem with signalling to help drivers behind you come to the same decision.

In reply to john arran:

It is a fully loaded tourer, if I take my hands off the bars, it is possible I will wobble, and these are  wide roads, if it was narrow I would pull in, so long as I was not going up hill. Personally I let other motorists make their own decisions, but do appreciate this is not a universal attitude.

In reply to Godwin:

I often sit behind cyclists for ages until there is an ultra safe passing place. It's not lack of confidence, it is giving you the same space as I would give a car. I am never in that much of a rush that I have to pass sooner, so why not leave absolutely no room for error. 

Just be grateful that they are giving you space 🙂

In reply to Godwin:

Did you have your stabiliser wheels fitted or wide load sign on display ? 

In reply to girlymonkey:

I kind of feel pressured, and that I should pull over. It is why I am asking the question really. As a cyclist I do give cyclists plenty of room.

In reply to Albert Tatlock:

Just one stabiliser wheel now.

In reply to Godwin:

I am also a cyclist, and I just thank people when they wait for an ideal passing place. 

The road is for all of us, don't feel pressured. 

In reply to girlymonkey:

I am a cyclist too and completely agree with you 😊

In reply to Godwin:

It's happened to me too....day riding or loaded up on a tour! I do try as much as I can to pull over where it's possible or wave through.... ultimately I'm happy that the motorist is being safe....as I do when driving and passing cyclists! Hope you enjoyed the trip....I'm looking at one for late June and may head over that way!

In reply to Godwin:

If you can’t take your hands off the bars, how on earth do you signal to turn???

In reply to Godwin:

I almost always let drivers make their own decisions. The exception would be where I get an early view that the road ahead is clear, when cresting a hill perhaps, but there might not be time if the driver waits till they can see it is clear.

If i signal it is clear they can at least be preparing to start the manoeuvre. Seems to be appreciated by drivers.

In reply to Godwin:

They might have just been scared of your dog

In reply to ianstevens:

Good observation, possibly this is happening when I am going really slowly in one of the lowest gears, when I feel less stable, as I do use hand signals. 
I still consider it is up to other road users to make their own decisions, flashing of lights and vague flapping of arms can be ambiguous. 

 

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

My dog, Jessica Annabelle, of 17 years passed away 7 months ago, still a bit upset.

In reply to abr1966:

It is an amazing trip. Gatcliff Hostels are superb, and if you can I would suggest use the train to Oban and back down from Mallaig, as they are world class.

The Ferry from Barra, is in IMHO the key one to get right, depending on if time is of the essence or you want to see planes landing and taking off at Barra Airport, which seems to happen around 11.30am. Apparently the tide can have an impact on ferry timings, but time was not important to me.

At Stornaway there is Loos castle, and the senses of place exhibition is superb and they have 5 Lewis Chess Pieces, which are very very easy to miss, as you will be looking at the Whisky Bottle off the SS Politician. The person in attendance said everybody misses them, which TBH I thought was a really odd thing to say.

In reply to Godwin:

I was wondering when this week's thinly disguised 'Uncle Derek was on holiday' thread would appear. 😉

In reply to Godwin:

Each to their own I guess. I find it helpful both as a cyclist and (occasional) motorist to let cars know/be told when it's safe to pass/the cyclist is comfortable to passed. This doesn't prevent the road user from making their own decision, just provides some extra information to make that decision with!

In reply to Godwin:

Yes. The consequence of over cautious drivers on some roads is then a long tail back of other drivers, now frustrated, and I'll get a string of unpleasant overtakes and the situation is overall then worse despite good intentions of the first driver. 

In reply to jack89:

Yes, this was something I experienced, I suppose the Law of unintended consequences. But generally all the motorists were pretty good.

In reply to DaveHK:

It is Uncle Dereks year of Travel, something I have never had the opportunity to do previously, and it is amazing. 
I would recommend it to anyone, to young people, get out there and discover the world and its peoples, to older people, do it while you can. 

I truly wish I had known it was an option when I was 18/19, but you cannot turn the clock back.

Now must get my map out and start scheming, I fancy a long walk, 3 or 4 weeks, or possibly that GR on Corsica, I shall go and research, ta ta for now.

In reply to Godwin:

I tend to be very, very cautious when I sense that a cyclist is nervous, unaware that I am there or likely to wobble.

In reply to Godwin:

I don't think you should complain. We have had it so hammered in to us (I think quite rightly) that we should only overtake a cyclist where we could safely overtake a car that queues of cars building up behind cyclists is inevitable. However, I think cyclists should always return the courtesy by pulling over to let cars pass if they have held one up for more than a minute or two or if more than a couple of cars are behind them.

In reply to jack89:

In that case you are the sort of cyclist who gives cyclists a bad name. You should have stopped and let the queue clear long before it comes to this (though it does not excuse the unpleasant overtakes).

In reply to Godwin:

Not sure if you have heard of it or tried to use one, but the Garmin Varia radar is a great piece of kit to help in terms of interactions with cars - it flashes up cars approaching from behind long before you can hear them (the range is 150m or so I think), particularly on windy days when sometimes a car is right behind and you cant hear until they get annoyed and beep. Gives you time to think about perhaps letting the car past if its narrow etc before they are right up behind.  

In reply to Robert Durran:

A minute or two, oh no, delayed by a minute or two, what a a trauma. 
I for sure made special efforts for the Artics shifting what I assumed was seafood up and down the country, who with out exception were the best drivers I came across, and to whom time is of the essence, and not one of whom hassled me. But I very much doubt that there is a  driver in the whole universe who has not got a blue light on the roof, that a minute or two is that important. 
Get a grip.

In reply to Godwin:

In the age of the electric car (esp) it's not a bad thing to let the driver know you are aware of their presence - and willing to cooperate if he/she overtakes - what I do the same for tailgate motorists.

In reply to Godwin:

A minute or two which might easily become much longer. How long do you think it's ok to hold someone up for?

So a cyclist on holiday can't have the courtesy to stop for about 10 seconds to let a car you're holding up pass? It's just common courtesy to another road user. Even farmers on tractors going about their work do it.

Sounds like you're another cyclist giving cyclists a bad name.

Get a grip.

In reply to Godwin:

Are you in a rush on your rides? Just pull over in a convenient gateway for a couple of seconds and have a drink and a look at the the view. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

It depends on the road, if it is quiet and no place to pass for ages then pull over for sure.

If on the other hand it is a busy narrow road where letting a car pass will mean another one arrives behind in 20 or 30 seconds then they can wait behind for a few minutes

In reply to PaulW:

It strikes me that on such roads this will just result in long queues of cars which will never clear unless there are particularly long overtaking straights. All the more reason to let cars pass I would have thought, or perhaps cyclists would be better avoiding such roads at busy times.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Really? Because this sort of obnoxious behaviour happens to me on short trips around town.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Obnoxious behaviour of cyclists letting queues form of of drivers overtaking dangerously?

Anyway, I think we are talking about the open road.

In reply to Godwin:

This argument is pertinent not just regarding cyclists but driver impatience in general... Trying to get 20mph invoked in our village to try and reduce the risk of children dying, but no, we cant do that because it will take drivers a whole 34 seconds longer to get through the village than if it was a 30mph. The same drivers that if they conform to the national average will spend several hours staring gormlessly at their mobile phone during the day...

In reply to Robert Durran:

Sounds to me like you want the laws in this country changed to suit your car driver mentality.

Or would you accept the argument you so freely used on the other thread: "Why coil toss and throw stones? Because I can?"

In reply to Godwin:

I’m glad that at last you found something positive to say about your trip but if the purpose of your holidays is getting triggered by people being considerate and sharing the road with you then perhaps you should go somewhere less civilised for your holidays.

In reply to Godwin:

I find these 'recluctant overtakers' can be counter-productive, as they slow down the traffic and you get impatient drivers behind them, who then either get angry (incorreclty) with inconsiderate cyclists holding them up from their important business (when its not the cyclists fault), or then overtake the cyclict in a risky manner as their patience has blown.

In reply to ianstevens:

I really don't like cyclists (or anyone) doing this.  It's simply not possible to delegate decisions about  overtaking to others - as a driver I need to see it's clear and that I have space etc. and not rely on someone else's opinion.  If a cyclist waves it will probably mean I am less likely to overtake than more likely.

In reply to Robert Durran:

This is fun, I am waiting in for Evri to pick up a Micro Wave, so this is an interesting diversion*

Obviously this being a UKC thread, I will have to repeat endlessly that I do let people pass on narrow roads and the like, and act courteously, and people will come up with new examples such as tractors or steam driven hearses, who I should pull over for, to exhibit my evilness as a cyclist.
However what I am not sure many people understand is just how hard it is to get a fully loaded tourer up to speed on the level, and if going up hill at all, it is very very hard, much harder than it is for the person in their Air Conditioned Vehicle, Listening to Music or whatever, to push their foot down and release 100 or more bhp.

* I do hope they are not delayed by a minute or two by a cyclist.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

More just polite considerate behaviour.  Why wouldn't you let following traffic pass?  I certainly do, both in a car or when cycling.

In reply to MG:

No one is preventing the 'flow of traffic' the cyclist is the traffic. As a driver I accept my responsibilty to deal with it instead of expecting 'them' (tractors. milk floats, horses, pedestrians, parked cars, caravans, cyclists, mobility scooters) to get out of my way

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

No I just want simple courtesy from all road users.

Eh? What is the relevance of that? A cyclist can do whatever they want as far as I'm concerned if it doesn't affect anyone else.

In reply to MG:

Can anyone give odds on 'stop being a d1ck' appearing in this thread soon?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Eh?

It's just being considerate to other road users.  If I am driving on a narrow road, I will let faster traffic past.  If I am cycling, likewise.  Again why not?

In reply to MG:

To be fair there are some occasions where it helps even if it is only to highlight that there will bean opportunity to pass when you clear a bend and can check that the road is clear.

In reply to Robert Durran:

How about the motorists choosing a different road instead then, where there is more chance of them travelling at their desired speed without being inconvenienced by cyclists, horse riders or whatever. A wider more major road perhaps. Seems that would be a win for everyone.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Possibly like many motorists, you assume the roads are there for your benefit, and that other users are merely tolerated, and should scamper out of your way, as if Mr Toad was approaching Parp Parp

In reply to PaulW:

Not really an option when cycling in the Highlands and Islands, which is where Uncle Derek was when he had his moments of discomfort. 

In reply to PaulW:

 

Have you ever been north of Perth?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Surely letting faster traffic  pass if a queue is forming is just something that it is nice to do when the opportunity arises?

Don't you gain a bit of pleasure from cooperation rather than studiously claiming your rights every time?

In reply to Godwin:

Why do you think roads are there!?

Do you hold doors for people or just let them slam in their face?  It's same idea of generally being considerate to others, even there is no absolute requirement

In reply to MG:

Not just for Motorised Vehicles, that is for sure. I would say that motorised vehicles have made a power grab, and have used their size and speed to intimidate other users.

 

In reply to MG:

Lets not go there, I have had the evils off some women and disabled people for opening doors, as a courtesy.

In reply to Godwin:

And of course no one is suggesting that.  They are however there for the benefit of motorists and many others.

In reply to PaulW:

I'm kind of the same in, especially while driving - I used to often flash people to let them out, but after a few occasions where that person assumed I meant it was "all clear" and pulled out in front of another car / bike I've given up! Let them make the decision. 

However, like you, if I'm cycling on a road I know well and can see its clear ahead (or its a short overtake opportunity) I'll wave them though, almost to say "go, and I'm expecting you to cut across sharply if something comes the other way but that's OK with me".

I try not to get too annoyed if someone sits behind me for ages - I just assume they're not in a hurry and happy to wait for a big gap. I do the same rather than a dodgy squeeze past, but I try to hang back. 

In reply to Godwin:

I’d take it over the agression, punishment passes and simple lack of care that is all too prevalent. 

In reply to timjones:

You didn't read my post did you. 

In reply to 65:

Fair point. Yes I have and I can appreciate that there might not be alternatives. So no alternatives for the cyclist either then as was suggested by another poster? But yes, move in and let the occasional car past for sure.

Perhaps i am lucky where I live, there are loads of country lanes and main road alternatives so if they are stuck behind me I can assume they are enjoying the scenery as I am and not in a hurry

In reply to Godwin:

In the Highlands it seems to be pretty well understood that if the driver of the vehicle being followed slows down a bit and indicates left, that's a signal to the drivers of the vehicle(s) following that they are happy to be overtaken.  This also carries the fairly clear implication that the driver of the lead vehicle believes that it is safe to overtake them; after all, who wants to have to brake/swerve suddenly because of a dangerous overtake?.  But it is much more by way of an invitation, for the other drivers to take up or not as they see fit, rather than any kind of instruction - which "flapping of arms" could easily be interpreted as.

Similarly, in the case of a bicycle it doesn't need to involve any "flapping of arms", just a clear indication to the left, same as if the rider intended to turn left or pull in to the left.  Coupled with a decrease in speed - you don't have to stop altogether - the message should be clear.  (A glance behind can also be helpful, to show the driver of the following vehicle that you are aware of their presence and hence that your actions are intended for their benefit.)

AFAIACS, I assume that Highway Code Rule 169 (amongst many others) applies to me when I'm out on my bike.  In return, it's nice if drivers of motor vehicles observe the many rules that apply to them, especially the ones regarding vulnerable road users - but I regard it as best not to assume that they all will.

In reply to Martin W:

All well and good until you come across a person who does not understand.

Another well understood "rule" is that you give way to the vehicle coming up hill, possibly  a quick flash of the lights maybe in order. I used to think this, until a traffic officer I was chatting with told me the car coming up should stop, as the vehicle coming down may not be able to stop, and could be flashing their lights as their brakes have failed.

Generally I take the view that the epitaph of "He did have right of way" on my gravestone would be a bit tedious, and I take a very defensive approach on the road, ie, everyone is out to kill me, and work back from there.

As said in the OP, not moaning, just wondering about other peoples experiences and seeking wisdom.

In reply to Godwin:

The "too courteous" motorist (or other road user) hardly exists IMO. Whenever there is a tailback behind cyclists it is because it is not safe for the driver at the front of the line to overtake the cyclists with a safe amount of space (at least 1.5 m according to the highway code rule 163). The driver is probably expecting the cyclist(s) to do their safety bit, which is "to be aware of drivers behind you and allow them to overtake (for example, by moving into single file or stopping) when you feel it is safe to let them do so" (rule 66). This principle of cyclists moving to the left to enable other vehicles to pass is re-iterated several other times in the highway code (rule 72 on road positioning).

Personally, I can't stand having motorists on my backside when cycling, so I happily move over to let them pass. This hardly slows me down at all, so it is a win-win alround.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Most of my rides are on narrow country roads. I usually pull into somewhere where the car/lorry can easily overtake. Our roads have lots of potholes. I don't want to have to swerve out to avoid a pothole at the moment the car behind decided to overtake me.

In reply to Godwin:

I have some narrow roads near me. One of them in particular is not wide enough for two cars to pass each other without one of them stopping in a wider bit.  It also happens to be a hill.  I ride it in both directions most mornings, and put in a lot of effort going uphill. 

In normal circumstances, I'll encounter about 5 cars who pass me; some well, some badly.  Either way, it only takes one car to come the other way and they'll stop, and F about for a while, and I'll have to stop too.  So I don't pull in if someone comes up behind me, because the delay to their journey will be one minute, before there's a slightly wider bit.  However, I then catch up with 50% of them again. Of course most of them don't get to pass anyway, because they have to stop for a car coming the other way beforehand.

This doesn't stop people trying to force their way past of course.  I've learnt, and so I make sure that there is not enough space to pass unless I'm comfortable.

In reply to nniff:

To be fair, this is not about narrow roads, a feature of the narrow roads on The Outer Hebrides, is they have frequent passing places, the only problem there is when you see a car approaching is  judging which passing place to pull into, when you can see a car barrelling along 4 passing places in the distance. The art is to keep your own headway, whilst allowing the car to keep on trucking.

The issue I was having was on fairly wide roads, this was why I got a little confused, as said in the OP when I would have thought they could easily and safely pass me.

Anyone I have been stood down from waiting for the Evri driver and I am off out.

 

In reply to nniff:

This really annoys me too. I'll always try and pull over and let cars past, its courtesy and I don't like having them getting wound up behind me. And then they get stopped by another car coming the other way and I have to stop and wait while they get past eachother. Or occasionally they get past and then drive slower than me! ( and I am in no way fast) Does my head in.

In reply to Godwin:

I very nearly took a cyclist out a few months back. 

I was keeping well back waiting for a suitably safe section of road to overtake without cutting him up (national speed limit and downhill, with gentle bends that restrict vision), when he waved me past with his right hand at hip level - only after I pulled out onto the middle of the road did I realise that this small wave was actually his right turn signal!!!

In reply to Godwin:

On the rides I do in hilly South Devon and Dartmoor away from the towns, if I’m on a hill and a car is sitting behind me in low gear despite the road ahead being evidently clear such that the car can easily overtake, then I’ll wave the car through - not least to show the driver that I am totally comfortable with them overtaking me and would prefer it if they did. It’s up to the driver to choose whether they then overtake but they usually do and I invariably get waves or hazard lights of thanks and I give a thumbs up back. It may work better on the sorts of roads I ride on which generally aren’t too busy. Whilst I could (as some above think cyclists should do) pull in and stop to allow such a car to pass, it’s not great having to do that on 5-25% hills when the road ahead is evidently clear and the car behind can rapidly overtake without any danger to me or itself.

In reply to Cusco:

If the hill is steep enough, if you actually stop to let a car past, you may not be able to get started again...

In urban settings, I have started 'taking the lane' very deliberately, where drivers might attempt to overtake unsafely (where there is oncoming traffic, but they might be able to 'squeeze past' in our lane). When it becomes safe to overtake, I pull over to the secondary position. This is because of experiencing too many unsafe, close passes in those situations.

In reply to Godwin:

In which case you (the cyclist) carry on as before, and the non-understanding driver continues to follow you.  No harm done, and no "flappy arm waving" possibly giving the wrong message (see Jenny C's post).  You try to be courteous, they do not recognise your courtesy, for whatever reason.  Nothing to see here, move along.  All is still well, and good, as far as I can see.

If you just really, really want to get them off your back wheel then the only thing left to do is to pull in at a safe place and stop to let them past.  If they fail to understand that then, well, there's no helping them.

In reply to Godwin:

Indicating left means you are turning left or stopping on the left, so it's pretty clear.

Well he'd better take have a read of 155 in the HWC.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

If I might revisit this, I think there is an excellent analogy. Only throw ropes when it is safe and not alarmimg to do so. Only overtake when it is safe and not alarming to do so.

In reply to PaulW:

Fair point. If I knew a road was frequented by inconsiderate cyclists who thought it ok to let a queue of cars behind them grow indefinitely and another route were available I might take it

In reply to Godwin:

No idea where you have got that idea. If you have read my posts you would see that I have bent over backwards to be the voice of reason and to urge both drivers and cyclists to  be considerate of each other.

In reply to Jenny C:

That's another thing that annoys me, limp hand signals. Cyclists who do a vague little wave of the hand to signal. When I did my motorcycle training I was taught that if you do a hand signal, do it properly. Arm out straight, confidently giving the message "I am going this way". I still do this now I'm a cyclist, and it works. Drivers do take more notice.

In reply to Hooo:

Not always. I've indicated right, well in advance of my manoeuvre, and still had dickheads overtake me mid manoeuvre, plenty of times.

In reply to captain paranoia:

I didn't say they always did! That would take some magical force 🙂

But a proper hand signal is more effective than a limp wave.

In reply to Godwin:

Jesus wept…never fecking happy…

In reply to Godwin:

Have you ever seen Duel?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Like a lot of these things it is not black and white. If I ride on a lane with few passing places where I might see a car every 10 minutes then for sure I will pull into a driveway and let them pass. Doesn't affect me much and avoids delaying them

But if the lane is busy, say one car every 30 seconds, then there is no way I am going to keep stopping every few yards. I don't see that as inconsiderate at all.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think the biggest problem is that drivers insist on using 2 (often 3) abreast vehicles when they are totally unnecessary.  So often they are just carrying empty seats about 3 abreast.

If they would drive a little more considerately then there would be plenty of room for people to overtake and there wouldn't be any need to discuss how long to wait before letting people past.

In reply to i_alan_i:

I also often wonder, whilst I'm sitting behind slow moving cars all the way from Coniston to Ambleside, and beyond, often for tens of minutes, how many of the ditherers at the head of the queue would argue cyclists should let faster cars through.

I expect many of them.  They never show the same courtesy to a faster car.  They are just bullies who feel cyclists are a lesser form of road user.

In reply to PaulW:

So on a road without overtaking opportunities you would be ok with 10 cars queuing behind you after 5 minutes and then keep on building? I don't think anyone would expect you to stop every few yards but I think it would be reasonable and courteous to stop and let the queue clear every 5 minutes say. Won't cost you much time and nobody is held up for more than five minutes.

In reply to i_alan_i:

So you think we should all own a selection of vehicles or motorcycles to choose from according to our number of passengers or load? Seems a bit unrealistic.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Just a different perspective on who might be being inconsiderate.  Obviously sometimes you have a large load to carry.  Equally obviously, sometimes people are using vehicles inappropriate for and unsuited to their current journey.

Do they deserve greater consideration as a result?

In reply to i_alan_i:

See my last post.

I think all road users should be given the same consideration.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I understand.  Equal consideration to all definitely means that people going about their day need to stop, to let others past who've randomly decided to carry a 3 seat sofa widthways along the road.

I'm not actually arguing for any position, I'm playing devil's advocate to a degree.  I agree that consideration is the most important thing, but there are several ways to define considerate on the road and people need to be mindful that their definition is not necessarily correct.

In reply to i_alan_i:

Yes, if they've "randomly" decided to use a mode of transport which only goes at about 15mph.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yep, 5 minutes and 10 cars is about on the cusp of where I would be looking for a place to pull over, that would be reasonable.

Mind you, at a weekend round here it wouldn't be long before they ended up behind the next cyclist. And that is before the horses.

In reply to PaulW:

Good, nice to agree on something. Presumably my dislikers are less reasonable though!

In reply to Darkinbad:

Yes, and when these cars were following me, that is exactly how I felt. 
Hence my posting, but I am sure the people had best intentions, even the huge mack rig with blacked out windows.
This posting has been huge fun, it could only have been improved if I had mentioned the huge amount of Van Shitters I noted in the area.

Sadly Evri, never turned up

In reply to Godwin:

Glad you now have. Though many vans, unlike, I imagine, bikes, will have their own shitter on board*. We'll just have to hope that the bikeshitting thing doesn't take off big time too; they seem thankfully few and far between at the moment in the highlands.

*And they sometimes make it up to 40mph or more.