SUVs and bonnet lengths

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 bruxist 11 Aug 2022

Ok, so firstly this isn't actually a post about biking. Except it is in the sense that it's about bike safety, and I don't know in what forum it would better belong.

What I'm trying to find out: the difference between the distance from the driver's head to the front of the bonnet on a traditional UK car versus the same distance on a SUV, or any of the other outsize car-things that have recently become popular as road rather than off-road vehicles. (I don't drive and know nothing about cars. You can probably tell.)

The reason I'm trying to find it out: I'm having increasing difficulty staying in local cycle lanes on roads because they're blocked by the bonnet of a SUV (or whatever they're correctly called) waiting on the left, from my point of view, to join the highway along which I'm cycling. It seems to me that they're not doing this because they're intending to cause a hazard but because they have no line of sight along the highway unless they drive forward until their bonnet protrudes into that highway, blocking the cycle lane.

We have a current public consultation in my area on proposals for improvements to the local cycling network. I'd like to contribute to it, as I have a feeling that its assumptions are outdated, based on when UK cars were smaller and lines of sight were pretty standard across domestic-use vehicles. I'd like to base my contribution on some factual data about the changed character of road vehicles rather than just my vague observations. Googling hasn't helped. My only idea so far has been to sneak around my local area at night with a tape measure, looking for SUVs I can measure up, but I have a suspicion this might lead to a night in a hostelry not of my own choosing. Any ideas?

4
 Graeme G 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

I drive a GLE. They don’t really come much bigger. You’re likely correct about bonnet length being longer than smaller cars.

I’ve never had an issue with line of sight, except on very tight urban corners with no pavement. My take would be you’re experiencing arrogance and/or poor driving. 

3
 Marek 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

Usually the cycle lane is taken from the main highway rather than the footpath, so your SUV driver is further out than he/she would be if the cycle lane was just a car lane. Basically they probably don't care that they're blocking the they-don't-even-pay-road-tax cyclists. Unless of course you have some trial skills and can jump the bike onto and over their their bonnet. Then they might notice you. If so, please submit a YouTube video...

Anyway, you should probably count yourself lucky that there isn't a 'Cyclists Dismount' sign at each side road junction: http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of-the-month/September2007.htm

Post edited at 21:04
4
OP bruxist 11 Aug 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

Thanks Graeme. (I had to look up what a GLE was - this is how poor my knowledge of cars is!)

It's interesting that you mention areas with no pavement, of which we have a lot. I'm in a rural area with lots of country roads with no pavement on one or both sides, and I think we've always taken special care, mindful of farm vehicles which tend to have a big distance from driver to bonnet end, but have better line of sight because they're seated so high up.

Passing through towns (this is in W. Yorks.) I notice the problem much more. I'm reluctant to put an observation into the consultation based solely on poor driving, even though there's plenty of it, as I'm minded to think that in some places the better solution for both drivers and cyclists would be routing a cycle lane differently. I did wonder - and again this is something I've no experience in - if it's a bit of a struggle for drivers nowadays having to pass their test in a smaller vehicle then trying to get used to driving a SUV. 

5
 Fraser 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

'Visibility splay' and 'sightline' issues here. New roads need to be designed and constructed in compliance with a set of criteria to enable a decent field of view for drivers. In essence, the faster the road, the larger the visibility splay. This won't help you if there are lots of old / narrow roads in your area however!

Some rough guidance here which might help: https://assets.ctfassets.net/ii3xdrqc6nfw/2aQXs5tIcA6uKWkqugiCKy/711dc8e9ce...

OP bruxist 11 Aug 2022
In reply to Fraser:

Thanks Fraser. That's a really interesting diagram, and explains a lot. You're right that there's loads of old and narrow roads in my area, but it's not so much those roads I'm thinking of as those that are used as current & proposed as future cycling routes, and upon which I'll get a say via consultation.

Am I right in thinking that, in your diagram, I'm saying the "X-distance" isn't standard anymore? i.e. that there'll be different "splays" (not sure if I'm using that correctly) for different sizes of vehicles?

 Graeme G 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

> It's interesting that you mention areas with no pavement, of which we have a lot. I'm in a rural area with lots of country roads with no pavement on one or both sides,

In which case maybe the length of the vehicle is a definite issue and needs to be considered. For me the issue is turning at one corner in particular. It’s outer wall forms the edge of the road, so you have no way of see what’s coming, without sticking the cars nose out at the junction.

Maybe that needs to be considered? Hedges etc?

1
 balmybaldwin 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

Some of the big SUVs will have this issue, but I expect you'll find saloon cars are worse for this (especially mondeos) I suspect the problem is more related to poor maintenance of hedges and the growth in road furniture that gets in the way.

Having said that I do notice an awful lot of these people can't even keep on their side of the road. I regularly find on coming cars a good 1/2 a foot on the wrong side and there really is no excuse it's just laziness

 65 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

I have no idea about SUV vs normal car bonnet lengths. BMWs and Mercs, because they have longitudinally mounted engines, generally have the driver sat further back relative the front of the car. Same goes for less common RWD cars. I've had a couple of cars where I sat immediately in front of the rear axle which made this even worse, though the cars were very small. Someone near me has a huge Ferrari which has a bonnet as a long as a medium sized hatchback, it must be a right bugger to get out of a blind driveway.

Some SUVs, because of their relatively dumpy form and steeper windscreen angles, have shorter footprints and as such shorter front ends than an equivalent sized estate. I don't think there's a rule or magic formula. My ukc standard issue Octavia has a bonnet longer than a lot of mid-sized SUVs. It sounds as if you're having a coincidence of selfish SUV drivers, or possibly you are just noticing them. They are extremely popular after all.

 ScraggyGoat 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

I can see your logic, but as pointed out it’s not just SUV’s, but anything with a long bonnet.  I went from driving a Corsa to a Mondeo estate, and immediately noticed how much further I needed to pull forward to get good visibility and was very conscious of the associated risk my bonnet would pose. 

Note that a long bonnet and thick pillars (as many SUVs have) are very bad for visibility, particularly for cyclists. The human eye/brain instinctively doesn’t look to the edge of a frame but stops short, meaning a thick pillar obscures a lot and may mean the driver pulls further forward again.
 

 S Ramsay 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

Your roads probably don't have space for this but look at some Dutch side turnings and cycle lanes (just dropping a Google street view man anywhere in the Netherlands and you will find one quickly). There the driver first encounters the cycle lane then has space to stop again before the main road. Thus would probably solve the problem that you're describing. As mentioned above though, chopping back hedges is probably the most realistic solution. The road that I live on has a hedge at the end amd I do find that I have to pull put further to get a sufficient view when the council hasn't cut it

 AukWalk 11 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

I'd agree with other comments, I think compared to many saloon / coupe and estate car designs SUV bonnets probably stick out less, at least until you get to the really big SUVs.  In general hatchbacks and MPVs will have less overhang than SUVs though.  Varies a lot from model to model though. 

Overgrown bushes (I'm not sure if this has got worse or I just notice it more now, bit it feels like overgrown bushes are much more common that they used to be, blocking pavements and reducing visibility for traffic at junctions), or simply junctions with poor visibility due to buildings or walls or whatever else may be reasons for cars having to edge out into the road to get good visibility. 

Of course it could also be bad driving and they stick out further than they need to. 

Post edited at 23:53
 Neil Williams 12 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

If considering the market, it is worth noting that e.g. the Mondeo (a very long car with a very long bonnet) is dying out in favour of the Kuga as the fleet favourite.  The Kuga is basically a vertically stretched Focus with a bonnet about the same size (but higher) and a faux 4x4 style bodykit.  Thus, your average fleet buyer is likely to be driving a car with a shorter bonnet than they were 10 years ago.

People who would 10 years ago have bought a Corsa or a Fiesta aren't suddenly buying massive SUVs, they're buying Corsas and Fiestas still.  So comparing small cars to SUVs isn't really that relevant.

(See also Vauxhall Vectra/Insignia vs Grandland, and so on)

Yes, there are big SUVs like Rangies, New Defenders and Nissan Pathfinders (the only US style large SUV that was on the mainstream UK market that I know of) plus those big pickup things, but then old Defenders, Series Landies and boxy Discos always had long bonnets, too.

So I don't think there's really anything in this.

Post edited at 00:51
 wbo2 12 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:  Can only support the above.  You can easily look at images from something like a Ford Sierra, or a Cortina and compare how far it is to the front of the car from the driver, compared to say a BMW X5.  It doesn't look longer in the X5 , and is higher, so better visibility.

 top cat 12 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

Measure bonnets at car dealerships in pretext that your looking for one to buy that has the shortest bonnet.

Use a cloth tape so as not to risk scratches.

 nniff 12 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

Just wandered out onto the drive and measured some cars - from the steering wheel (very roughly) to the front. Two rear wheel drive cars with longitudinal engines and gear boxes 2m and 2.1m.  Average front wheel drive hatchback 1.6m

 Timy2 12 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

Hi,

slightly off topic but relevant, theres was a safety video published online last week in USA probably on Yahoo or mSN.  It showed how poor the visibility is for seeing a small child from a big SUV.  i think they sat 20 kids in front of bonnet before one could be seen!

 Neil Williams 12 Aug 2022
In reply to Timy2:

Though Nissan Pathfinders and the big pickups are the only UK SUVs as huge and high as a typical US one.  The term really does have a totally different meaning between the two countries.

In reply to Marek:

I was saddened to see that WCC seems to have stopped reporting 'cycle facility of the month' in 2019.

 PaulW 13 Aug 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

That was a great site. Made me howl with laughter and shake with rage at the same time.

 Ridge 13 Aug 2022
In reply to top cat:

> Measure bonnets at car dealerships in pretext that your looking for one to buy that has the shortest bonnet.

> Use a cloth tape so as not to risk scratches.

Alternatively:

https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/ford-mondeo-2014-estate-vs-ford-ku...

Quite a good site for comparing sizes etc. of different vehicles. There doesn't look to be a huge difference in bonnet length between a Kuga and a Mondeo. Looks like the driver of the Kuga may sit further forward depending on seat adjustment, and has better visibility.

 Gormenghast 13 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

You might also want to consider the increase in width of a car’s A pillars.

While vastly improving the safety of the car’s occupants they also create a massive blind spot into which cyclists can disappear.
The car driver who pulls out and says ‘sorry mate I didn’t see you’ is probably telling the truth.

OP bruxist 14 Aug 2022
In reply to thread:

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! Top cat has the right answer - go to a car dealership and measure up. A friend whose dad owns a dealership came up with the same suggestion last night, so that's what I'll do as soon as the weather's less sultry. Special thanks to nniff for actually going out and doing some measuring!

For those who mentioned hedges, bushes etc: I cycled the proposed route again twice on Friday to check. The points at which there are problems have no hedges at the corners of the junctions or, where they do, the hedge begins well above the height of any driver's head and the main line-of-sight obstacle is a wall.

For those who mentioned comparisons with e.g. saloon cars, my feeling is that whilst SUVs may differ from type to type there's a broader fundamental difference between vehicles designed for U.S. road layouts and those designed for elsewhere. Whether it be the kind of SUV I've been observing most often blocking the cycle lane or a 1960s Cadillac - which of course I never see on UK roads - what they have in common is a design spec based on assumptions that don't make for the easiest or safest fit with UK roads. Some of the older US. sedan cars have the same sort of extreme bonnet length I'm thinking of.

I can exclude many of the suggestions for particular models, and perhaps that indicates the somewhat elastic meaning of SUV internationally. Jeeps, Discoveries, Land/Range Rovers, Pathfinders - none of these is the kind of thing I'm talking about, and all seem to me to have comparable distance between the driver's head and bonnet point with other cars.

I only had the problem once on my Friday cycle, and the vehicle was a Peugeot - more than that I didn't spot. Their bonnet had crossed over the cycle path and into the road before the driver's head came into view, and it seems sensible to assume that if I can't see them, they can't see me.

OP bruxist 14 Aug 2022
In reply to Gormenghast:

That's really interesting. I had to look up what an A pillar was and the first thing that came up was the Wikipedia article; the photo to illustrate what the A pillar is is a photo of "A crash due in part to an A-pillar blind-spot", in which a larger vehicle has taken out a cyclist.

 Matt Podd 14 Aug 2022
In reply to bruxist:

Why get an SUV anyway? Fold your Willie up and get a smaller lighter, less polluting, less …… smaller car. You may help ( in a small way) to help save the planet?

3

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...