UKH

On my way to work this morning in my van, a car coming the other way passed a cyclist, and the late middle aged woman driver looked to be holding her breath as she passed between me and the cyclist, and I would not have liked to have been the cyclist. 

But here is the rub, I do not think she was concerned for the cyclist, I think she was more concerned about scratching her late model white Audi, than pranging the bike.

The reason I think this is, a few years ago I was walking down the tarmac bit of the Walna Scar road into Coniston, and non of the cars coming seemed to think stopping to let me pass, a plan, instead preferring to squeeze past me. All of a sudden I had a cunning plan, and turned my walking poles horizontal to my body, with the spikes poking into the road. From that point on, all cars stopped and let me pass, with no exception. The risk had passed from me to the car driver.

So possibly a spike on the road side of a bikes handlebars would encourage drivers to give bikes more space,
 

Like I said, semi serious.

In reply to Godwin:

Having spikes didn't work out well for Messala in Ben Hur

In reply to Godwin:

How about a nice, whippy piece of tent pole (eg fibre glass) sharpened to a point, attached to rear of bicycle at seat height, protruding into the road, maybe 1m50 - in France, that's the minimum passing distance. Attached to the end of the would be a bright, triangular flag; flag is either a warning or target - depends on the driver. Though if taken as a target, their paintwork will suffer...

I have fantasies like this every time I'm out on the bicycle.

In reply to Godwin:

I have become more assertive when running and walking these days. It will be faster for both parties if the cars I meet in the lanes slow down or pause rather than me flinging myself into the hedge just so they can continue their journey unimpeded. 

I recall Clarkson once opining that a real change in driver behaviour would be brought about if a spike deployed rather than an air bag.

In reply to Godwin:

Something I often note is when approaching cars pass me on my bike and they are closer to me than they are the parked cars on their side of the road. There was a case a while back where a cyclist who was annoyed by close passes fitted a plastic ball and chain (fancy dress shop style) on the back of his bike and was told to remove it by the police as it was potentially dangerous.

In reply to Godwin:

I think she was more concerned about scratching her late model white Audi, than pranging the bike.
 

Off your point a bit, but does anyone else wonder why is it always an Audi? 

In reply to Godwin:

"White Audi" ... and there we have it , do they do an advanced arsehole  driver training course before they give you the keys ?

In reply to Godwin:

You're not the only who thinks like that.

I wouldn't mount it on the bars, that would just throw you of the bike if it caught. Make sure it has a easy break away point in it, as you don't want it catching on the vehicle and dragging you down the road.

I used to use a light strapped to my arm on the road side, seemed to give me a little more room, as the drivers don't focus on the centre mounted rear light i.e. use it as a target. Maybe mount it on on the spike.

Or do as I do and avoid road cycling as much as possible.

In reply to Godwin:

Occasionally saw someone who had a reflector along these line

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Fold-Out-Safety-Reflector/dp/B004H1QYG2

Might make some people pass a bit wider.

In reply to mondite:

I think they tend to rely on having a rear rack to attach them to, which isn't that common these days.

They would also need to be longer to have the required effect - and then you'd have to remember to fold it back when filtering, so not ideal.

I prefer the idea of the rear lights that paint laser lines on the road - not so effective in daylight, though.

In reply to Godwin:

I've often thought that adding a jagged tin can to the end of those little red plastic flag sticks that you used to see on the back of bikes would greatly improve their effect.

I have also had car drivers just try to squeeze past when I've been on foot, you just think what is wrong with you!

Having said that I read something that suggested that as many as 40% of people have no internal monologue which suddenly explained a lot of things!

Cheers

Toby

In reply to LastBoyScout:

Did see some where they had been bodged to be out further. Cant say I am sold on the idea but might work for some.

The ones in London definitely seem limited in daylight and not sure how well it would work in a busy nightscape with lots of lights especially stupidly overpowered headlights.

I prefer one which paints a red dot on the drivers forehead as a warning before opening fire if they dont get the hint. Apparently though they arent allowed elf n safety got mad I tell you.

In reply to Godwin:

Theres a French village in Brittany I drove through at night. No lights, no illumination, no hiviz reflective or paint to be seen anywhere.  Instead they narrowed both sides of road by putting in some angled metal fixing that you wouldn’t want to hit in your car. It had the desired effect of slowing to a crawl to get through.

In reply to Brass Nipples:

Interesting approach. Sounds far from ideal for cyclists though!

In reply to mondite:

In my wilder moments I would agree with a shoot to kill policy, on cyclist harassers, but possibly more realistically iif motorists on speed awareness courses were made to spend a couple of hours cycling in a City Centre, it would focus minds.
Apparently, because everyone in the Netherlands is a cyclist, everyone is courteous to cyclists, mind pedestrians can get a bit of a ticking off for stepping in front of cyclists.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Here we are, the great “Audi’s in houses” site. https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2015/12/26/audis-in-houses/
Some of the pictures are priceless 

In reply to Luke90:

You'd just hold the lane where it narrows as is recommended practice in this country.

In reply to TMM:

You are going to need to explain the logic behind this. I spend a lot of time walking and running on country lanes and I can't see how it can universally be quicker for both parties if the car stops rather than me tucking on to let it pass.

It's a matter of give and take, sometimes it will be quicker for the car to pause, other times it will be quicker if I pause.

In reply to Godwin:

In summer, I often cycle in shorts or skirt with flip-flops and a handbag over my shoulder. No helmet, so hair flying loose. It's definitely my safest cycling! People think you are off your trolley and give LOADS of space. 

The ride home in the dark and thick fog on Monday night was also a good one, plenty of space then too (I was brightly dressed, lights and helmet).

In "normal" conditions, if I am not getting enough space, I start to weave about unpredictably. 

I believe a child seat on the back with a fake child in it is a good plan too, but I haven't done that one.

In reply to timjones:

If they slow down we can both pass. It is disproportionately demanding on me to stop running and get going again. If both parties take action by making a little compromise both can proceed.

If drivers keep having an expectation that runners, walkers, cyclists and riders are going to stop for them then nothing is going to be done to positively adjust the mindset of many drivers.

In reply to TMM:

If both parties can  slow and pass without stopping then it makes sense.

If it is not safe to do this and one party has to pause then it will not always be the car that has the best place to do this and it is give and take.

As for "disproportionately demanding on me to stop running and get going again", maybe you need to get fitter if it is such a hardship

If we keep being bullheaded and always expect to claim the right of way it is not going to do a lot to help either!

In reply to timjones:

'Disproportionately', the driver of the vehicle is sat in their ton and half of steel in air conditioned comfort. Whatever you think of my fitness* it is likely that pausing, stopping or slowing down is going to be disproportionately more effort for me.'

Not sure I am happy with the accusation of being 'bullheaded'. I see a lot more of an expectation of right of way from drivers than I do from pedestrians. The consequences of such behaviour also have wildly disproportionate outcomes for both road users.

*I wasn't going to rise to it but it was such a naff, cheap shot I'll bite. This is the 3rd year in a row where I have run more than 3,000km and put on more than 100,000m of height gain. If you're doing more running than that then I'll take the advice on my fitness.

In reply to girlymonkey:

What an excellent idea, I shall try this myself, do you think a smear of Lipstick will add to the ensemble?

In reply to Godwin:

I'm sure it will! 😀

In reply to Godwin:

I often cycle with a young lady from the cycling  club. I was moaning about close passes from drivers and she said she didn’t get many and put it down to the fact she had a long pony tail flying behind her from the bottom of her helmet thus identifying her as a young lady. Says quite a lot really when you think about it. I report close passes with evidence from my bike cameras. Perhaps a hair extension might be an additional safety gadget😀

In reply to Godwin:

I have wondered sometimes whether a bit of laser trickery could be used at night to describe the shape of a car around a cyclist to make people give more space

In reply to TMM:

don't you always find that cyclists have an expectation that people on foot will step aside to make way?

I find this quite often

Perhaps I should be a bit more assertive as a pedestrian (I cycle too)

TBH the biggest hazard these days is dogs on silly long leads being allowed to run out in front of cyclists, not wise on shared ways

In reply to wercat:

Now we are on a slightly different topic. On shared ways, I often find pedestrians walking 4 abreast,  and the expectation is that a cyclist rings there bell, then has to submit a letter of thanks for them moving, or at least a cheery thank you. Now I am all for saying thank you, but on a long ride on a sustrans shared route, after saying thank you 300 times, one becomes a tad jaded. It is a shared route, if you see or hear a cyclist, just step to one side. 
On shared routes I walk or cycle on the left, in the UK.

In reply to TMM:

Bullheaded is one way of describing you

In reply to timjones:

Sounds like an impatient middle aged car driver who never goes anywhere except on 4 wheels.

I see a lot like you every day on my way to/from work, sod anyone else and always in a hurry to get to the traffic jam 30 or 40 metres ahead (and in full view for anyone who isn't blind).

In reply to Godwin:

Not a serious suggestion by any means but when I was younger some biker friends (the ones who wear cut off denim) used to carry waterpistols filled with battery acid for when cars cut them up. Always use battery acid in a socially responsible way folks

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Now now Duncan, do you really think an adult, suggesting this behaviour to  a lunatic like me is responsible behaviour. I wonder if a water pistol could fire Tipex, hmmm.

In reply to TMM:

In that case why on earth are you worried about the tiny bit of extra effort that is involved in pausing when circumstances dictate that it is you that should yield?

Circumstances dictate that I have only had the time to run about half your distance and ascent, yet I can still find the time and energy to give way to other road users without any fuss when it is necessary.

In reply to TMM:

Stop/start driving is much more damaging to the environment though

In reply to fred99:

How wrong can you be

I spend a considerable amount if time running on country lanes, whether I am driving or running makes no difference. Sometimes I give way, other times the other oncoming road user does, the choice is dictated by the space that is available rather than the mode of travel.

Given that I have already pointed out why you are wrong I would suggest that this jibe is also wrong.  You might find it easier to share the road with others if you made less assumptions about others.

In reply to artif:

Wow! I've seen it all now.

You are suggesting that the pedestrian should give way to ensure the driver of the carbon burning machine is allowed to use their polluting vehicle in the most efficient way possible.

I hadn't realised that so many of these drivers were really just eco warriors trying to do their best for the planet. 

I think you may have won this year's 'Most specious argument' award. Congrats!

In reply to timjones:

Great stuff! Range Rover owner cliché confirmed. Parp, parp "coming through".

In reply to timjones:

Yeah Tim, these pointless 'jibes' are so unnecessary. How do you keep that greenhouse warm?

In reply to TMM:

Doesn't that make sense, or are you advocating making them less efficient?

My Pleasure 

In reply to artif:

I'm not so sure, I usually joke that my tendency to favour manual labour as well as walking and running is better for the environment because I'm fuelled by beer.

I've never actually checked for any data that compares the impact of driving against the brewng process

In reply to subtle:

Having read some of your previous contributions on here I'll resist the risk of profanity by declining to share my description of you.

In reply to Godwin:

It would have to be on the back of your head, but I guess that would just add to the intended effect.

In seriousness I think the element of randomness/unpredictability is good in terms of forcing the driver to reevaluate passing close.

I would suggest some sort of very whippy upright rod with a small weight on the end that swings randomly from side to side. Gives a similar visual effect to weaving without needing to actually do that.

In reply to TMM:

You really need to lay off the simplistic prejudices.

I tend to come to a halt for other road users most of time when driving  the Range Rover than the tiny Peugot that I do most of my driving in.

If i'm in the Range Rover I am both driving a larger vehicle and towing a trailer so there is less significantly less space to pass safely without stopping.

Aue you really so offended that others are less "assertive" occasionally yield to drivers when out running or walking?

In reply to timjones:

It's depressing that this is apparently deemed so controversial.

I merely want, no, expect, to be treated like an equal when I am using the road and I meet another road user.

Sometimes that means I need to stop, other times it may mean a driver needs to stop. Perhaps we can both make progress if we slow down slightly?

Given the recent changes to the highway code it is clear that we need to moderate our behaviour to prioritise the safety of the most vulnerable.

What's so difficult or challenging about that?

In reply to Godwin: My current vexation is the bad behaviour of cyclists on a mixed use path.  I'd like a speed bump every 50m to keep cyclists to a safe speed.

In reply to Godwin:

There was a thing for bike flags a few years ago. Plastic arm + flag + reflector to try to make cars give space. If I recall, most drivers did, but it also became a game from a minority to see if they could clip the flag. Used to see a few - but never these days. 

In reply to TMM:

In Morocco, where there are far fewer cars, people just share the roads, and unless it is a fast road 80/100kph, seem just to wander in the road, assuming that the person in the car will, stop or go around them. In the west/ global north, call it what you will, the cult of the car has taken over assuming a dominion of the public highway.
I was just crossing a quiet suburban road, and its a cold miserable day, and got to the centre island and stopped, and saw a car, maybe 150 mrs away, and stopped. The people in the car sailed past chatting away, in air con comfort, with no thought of me, and no acknowledgement. I doubt if they really even noticed me, they would even have considered stopping to let me proceed, as the assumption is that the pedestrian or cyclist will wait, under penalty of serious injury or death.
I think I get where you are coming from, but also understand how the massive majority will struggle to understand your perspective. 
I am hopeful that self driving cars will help pedestrians and cyclists reclaim their rightful space on the highways.

In reply to wbo2:

Ah, those will be the Audi and BMW drivers out cycling, I have noticed them out in their Campervans, when it was just hippies in vans it was okay, but now the "thrusters" have discovered them, there is a definite shift in how some camper vans are driven.

[EDIT] There - Their, flippin spell check.

In reply to artif:

With motorised vehicles, it's really quite easy to :_

A) Look ahead to read the road and see who else is there

B) Judge when differing road users will arrive at a meeting point

C) Take your foot off the accelerator in order to arrive at that point a second or two later

D) Politely wave the other road user through

E) Proceed without touching the brakes, at only a second or two (at most) slower than if the road was completely empty of other road users

Simples

(Or at least it is to anyone with a brain !!!!!)

In reply to fred99:

I'd love to live in your perfect world, but as this discussion shows, we are far from it

In reply to tlouth7:

Draw an entire fake face on? The way some butterlies etc have fake eyes.

In reply to TMM:

There is nothing difficult about that, it is exactly what I have been saying in response to your initial suggestion which was that drivers should give way to you because it would allegedly be quicker for everyone.

If we both want the same thing why on earth have you continued to argue otherwise?

In reply to fred99:

Spot on.

The same applies to all road users, sometimes it will be the car that does this, on other occasions it will be the pedestrian.

In reply to wbo2:

Speed bumps on cycle paths = jumps! The best way to ride them is at speed and jump them!

In reply to wbo2:

There is a cycle path near me with kerbs every 10m or so for pedestrians to cross. Not humps, kerbs.

I first rode down it in the dark, nearly came off, and got a pinch flat. That's one way to slow down cyclists.

In reply to Godwin:

In the last 2.5 years of cycle-commuting, I've become increasingly assertive about my road position to discourage close-passes. I also have a Pass Pixi (https://passpixi.com/ )on my pannier, to warn drivers that I'm filming them - it's like a force field, which discourages all but the most egregious behaviour.  And I do report bad driving to the police, who do take action (South Yorkshire).

But I have considered attaching something to my bike.  Somewhere on the interweb (I forget where) someone has posted instructions for making a retractable flag that sticks out the side of the bike.

In reply to rsc:

Of the reports I've submitted to the police, Ford are in first place, and VW and Vauxhall in joint second place, and Audi trailing in third place.

In reply to wbo2:

Shared use paths are deeply unsatisfactory for both pedestrians and cyclists, and should not be routine practice.

In reply to Becky E:

What do you use to film them?

(looking for recomendations for front and rear camera's - need them to be easily transferable between bikes though)

In reply to subtle:

For the rear a Cycliq camera is the sensible way to go.  Stabilised and everything. For the front, I'd go cheaper with a Chilli Cam

Commuting in town, i have a bright yellow pannier on the off-side to make me look bigger and more solid (and to protect the rear mech if need be).

I often think about fixing a bamboo cane to the rack and hanging one of these from it

https://www.costumerusuk.com/product/fake-brick-foam-fancy-dress-halloween-...

In reply to nniff:

For the rear I'd recommend Teentok, much more reliable than Cycliq, I've had 3 duff cycliq ones and Cycliq support are a PIA to deal with. Had no issues with Teentok, it just works and image quality is as good as Cycliq with longer battery life. 

In reply to mondite:

Perfect... just use a lot of gaffer tape and a clip stick and it'll be mounted on the bike ready for action 

In reply to Becky E:

That pass pixie is a great idea 👍

I try to convince my wife to be more assertive, when riding, but 🤷

She says I annoy drivers, but I tell her I annoy everyone, so why should drivers get special treatment 😂

In reply to subtle:

Chilli Tech bullet cameras are fairly cheap, long batter life, but not so good in low light. One on helmet, one rear-facing.

I also have a Go Pro Hero 7 on my handlebars. Bought 2nd hand. Much better image quality, and easier to tag & edit footage. But poor battery life (1 hour, unless you can connect it to a powerbank).

Cyliq are apparently good, but mixed reviews about reliability.

Running cameras makes me much calmer about the bad drivers: I just shout out the number plate, and report them to the police when I get home.

In reply to Godwin:

The Pass Pixi is great: definitely recommend, even if you don't actually have a camera.

As regards road positioning, maybe worth finding an adult Bikeability course?  

In reply to Becky E:

Interesting (and nice to have some facts instead of raw prejudice!)

In reply to MisterPiggy:

Me too, so I fitted one.

It's only 70cm and is covered in hi vis tape and a red flashing light but has absolutely eliminated close passes. It also makes drivers hang back slightly and reduced those "I reckon I can just make that" overtakes.

I've not sharpened the poles to a point but the metal ends would probably mark the paint of anyone who tried to pass too closely.

In reply to Godwin:

I have a frequent daydream of being allowed to carry a medieval morning star as a cyclist, with a length of the minimum passing distance minus your reach, and if we can hit a passing car with it, there’s no liability! 

In reply to wbo2:

"speed bump every 50m"

The preferred method here is dismount signs.

In reply to wbo2:

Predicted result of this: fewer people on bikes and more people in cars.

Let's just build decent infrastructure for all transport types rather than making it more difficult for the ones that we personally find annoying, a perception which is usually based on a the behaviour of a small minority of users of that mode.

In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

Crap barriers

debris 

poor surfaces

unnecessary curbs

etc etc 

plus idiot dog walkers with 30m invisible leads

In reply to Wimlands:

Some are heartbreaking: "lollipop lady jumps in front of speeding Audi driver to protect children crossing"

In reply to artif:

Fixed that for you 

In reply to artif:

Well my (and indeed our) world would be better if people weren't such assholes in their 4-wheeled tanks.

This morning on my way to work I was going uphill at 30mph (as per speedo, probably 28 in reality) when a Chelsea Tractor overtook me at speed, pulled in and then slammed the brakes on to slow down.

Why did said CT slow down so quickly ?

Well first of all I had checked my speed because of the (30mph) speed camera that was coming up - and that the plonker almost tripped at somewhere near 50 - secondly coming down the hill, and going past parked cars (hence occupying a large chunk of my side of the road was a double-decker school bus.

Now call me Mr. Silly if you like, but I'd say that particular Chelsea Tractor driver got damned close to finding himself on national news and being public enemy number 1 as far as an awful lot of parents are concerned. I personally would like to know if the prat could pass an eyesight test.

In reply to Brass Nipples:

I commute along a section where there is a road, then bollard barrier to segregate the cycle lane, then a full height road kerb and then the pavement - guess where the dog walkers are - yup, they have taken to walking their dogs up and down the cycle lane - no matter how often they are politely asked to remove themselves, and their dogs, they seem to be there the following day etc.

Its a joy, it really is. 

In reply to Godwin:

I always assume they will not hear and use the bell for a long distance.  You have to remember that some people do not hear well.  Actually most people do react very well if I use the bell pretty early on as you have to allow time for the sound to travel, time for them to hear if talking and then time to work out what to do.

As I said the hazard from long dog leashes is severe as despite the warning and leaving room to pass they seem unaware that their dogs will run across your path suddenly and late on very extended leads, perhaps "only greeting you" or "just being friendly".  I have had some very near misses because of this even though I slow right down passing people

In reply to wercat:

Bells, now there is a topic. In June I bought a new bell, of the traditional kind, a big metal thing of the traditional kind. It has been a revelation, apart from the people with earbuds in, everyone hears it. And they smile and move.

I think those cheap jobs that come with bikes, have a sound that is not only to quiet, but people do not recognise as a bike bell 🔔

In reply to Godwin:

Was it a traditional bell you bought - the kind used by Town Criers etc? Hard to use whilst on a bike!

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

A long time ago, a cycling buddy told me that neat Ribena (or similar) was good amunition in a spare bottle - apparently, windscreen wipers just smear it around and it's a bugger to clean off once it's dried. Never tried it, though.

I do have occasional fantasies about spraying it all over the occupants of the car - usually just after I've been close-passed by the type of cretins that think it's funny to scream at you out of the passenger window!

In reply to LastBoyScout:

long time ago (>30 years) I was cycling in Edinburgh with a friend when someone got much to close for comfort. Friend went to tap his front wing to protest only for his hand to go straight through the bodywork which must have been mostly rust held together with paint. He removed his hand quickly & we took a quick left turn. Not sure what the driver did

In reply to Godwin:

I'm another with cameras and a PassPixi. Sometimes you can hear the engine note change at the precise moment they spot the PassPixi and ease off.

I'm a 'cycle buddy' volunteer in my local area which means that occasionally I take someone who is new to cycling out and show them local routes (unfortunately it's all a bit shit around here and mostly on not very nice roads). The last woman I took out was super nervous and wobbly and drivers either hung back or gave us loads of space. Perhaps they were also worried about their paintwork. Perhaps I should wobble a bit more.