'Slimming down' 650b+ tyres?

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 TobyA 08 Jun 2020

Rather specific question, but that's never stopped excellent answers here in the past!

My MTB is nearly 5 years old. I don't do massive mileage on it - on Strava I've recorded 1,500 kms on it which sounds about right - but I only use it for "proper" off road riding, predominantly in the Peak. 

It has plus tires, as was the fashion back in 2015, and no suspension. They are both WTB: a 3 inch aggressive one on the front, and 2.8 faster rolling one on the back. That's what the bike came with, I set them up tubeless, and have found them to work really well for me since, whether that's bridleway cruising going bikepacking or more aggressive rocky stuff like coming down Jacob's Ladder from Kinder.

Last weekend the back tyre suddenly started loosing a lot of air, inconveniently this was when I had just ridden up and over Cut Gate and I was almost at the furthest point from my car on my planned ride! I don't remember ever having to walk home with a flat tire before in what must be almost 40 years of riding bikes, but despite trying a whole series of things, including eventually putting a spare inner tube in, I couldn't get it to hold air so had a "nice" 15 km walk of shame back to the car. Thanks to all the kind passing bikers who offered me spare tubes and other help!

I still haven't had time to strip the tyre off and see what the problem might have been. I've heard for some time that the move away from plus tyres has been because hard-chargers tend to rip the sidewalls out on rock terrain. I'm far from hard-charger, but I have ridden a lot of rocky terrain on the bike and the back wheel definitely has scars on it. I suspect that is most likely to be what did it.

Anyway - I reckon I've got my money's worth out the stock tires so am going to buy new ones but it seems really hard to find many 3 and 2.8 inch tires. Has anyone with a 650b+ bike 'slimmed down' their tires? 2.6 inch seems pretty easy to get now. I understand they can have tougher sidewalls than 3 inch which sounds good. But has anyone else with plus tires found it hard to buy like for like replacements and gone a bit slimmer with their rubber? If so, does it change the feel of the bike much? I'm slightly worried that with it being a fully rigid bike, without a big squelchy tire up front it might be a really harsh ride.

...Although, of course, then buying a new one with full suspension starts seeming like a plan. Not sure what the family would have to say about that tough!

 ChrisJD 08 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Tyres - my favourite subject!

If you want burly, grippy and comfort volume:

2.4 MSC Gripper Super Shield 2C for front (comes up around 2.6)

2.3 Victoria Martello Enduro Casing.

And fit some NukeProof ARD liners (good compromise of weight vs cost vs protection). You will be able to ride home with a tyre deflated on these liners.  You'll be able to ride pretty low pressures = more comfort on rigid.  They are not that light, but they are tough and the side wall will give lots of support, even at low pressure

Run this set up on my HT and my FS in the Peak. Will be fine for a plus bike down size.

OP TobyA 08 Jun 2020
In reply to ChrisJD:

Cheers Chris. Disappointingly rather pricey tires but I guess you get what you pay for to a great extent! Have you settled on these after experimenting with lots of other tires? It's definitely comfort volume that is one of the most important things with my current bike. I bought it on the basis that with plus tires it would make not having suspension less of a downside.  I have to say I have sometime regretted not getting classic hardtail although once I got the tyres set up tubeless and particularly after put a dropper seatpost on my bike, I haven't found too many things that I haven't been able to ride in the Peak. I still haven't tried riding the Beast yet though! Of course I fall off, or more often jump off, from time to time - but I think normally that's my (lack of) skill rather than the bike! And the bike is great for bikepacking which is one of the things I bought it for. 

 ChrisJD 08 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Oh yes, I have been through a lot of tyres!

These aren't actually 'that' expensive compared with some, lol.

In fact, the MSc Gripper from Terradventure is really great value for what it is (it is a lot of tyre!); three other riding mates have now swapped to them as well on front instead of Magic Marys.

I've recently gone 29er on my hardtail, latest Gen Cotic SolarisMax. Have to say it is awesome, and I've had quite a lot of hardtails over the years (am running a slightly out of spec fork, coughs).  With this tyre/liner set up, the thing can get up to FS beating speed, providing you are prepared to take some physical punishment.

I've also got a Gripper you are welcome to try (been plugged, so try it with a tube).  And a Vittoria Moto (not for dry conditions) if you want.

 MikeSP 09 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Evans have a filter for 650+ tyres.

https://www.evanscycles.com/bike-components/bike-tyres_c/mtb-discipline/27_...

There might be some issues with fitting standard 650 tyres on due to the height difference.

650 plus tyres have a bigger profile so the overall radius is the equivalent of a 29 inch wheel.

So if you put standard tyres on the whole bike will be siting lower, possible peddle strikes.

I believe the 650 plus rims are wider so you might also have seating issues but I haven't tested this.

 Durbs 09 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

My Cannondale Beast of East came with WTB Rangers which come in 2.8 and 2.6 I think. A fairly good middle-ground in terms of grip but not too soft on hard-packed earth. 

Earlier in the year I upped my + tyres to a Maxxis DHF 2.8 and Easy Roller 2.8 up-front, both from CRC.

Need to swap them out again now as there's no mud anywhere near me, it's all rock-solid now!

Also have a set of Schwalbe Super Moto-X which are great fun on road and hard-trails:

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/tyres/mtb-tyres?f=4294446920

OP TobyA 09 Jun 2020
In reply to MikeSP:

Cheers Mike - I had looked at Wiggle and CRC, Merlin, Tredz and Planet X but hadn't got as far as Evans yet! They aren't cheap - but I guess that's because there isn't so big a demand for them!

I was trying to check the width of the rims yesterday - they are WTB Scraper but I can't remember if they come in different widths, or are one width designed for plus tyres. I did wonder whether the rims could be too wide for 2.6 tyres but hadn't read anywhere suggesting that could be a problem. The wheels seem to have been really good and it was one of the reasons I got that bike in the first place - the logic was you got much better other components including the wheels because you don't have front suspension, but with plus tyres that's not such a downside anyway.

OP TobyA 09 Jun 2020
In reply to Durbs:

I rode my gravel bike last night on some of the White Peak east side bridleways near me and saw some mud for the first time in weeks! Not much, and it was already drying as I guess the ground below is just so dry, but yeah - it's been more dust than mud for last couple of months!

Thanks for the link. I had looked at CRC but it might have been a couple of weeks ago and although they had plus tyres listed very few were in stock. It seems the stock levels have improved - some options there including not too expensive ones! Thanks.

 MikeSP 09 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I've just had a look at the wtb site

https://www.wtb.com/collections/650b-rims

The scraper is 40 or 45mm wide and the widest kom (standard size) is 25mm wide.

That's quite a stretch on the sidewalls.

OP TobyA 09 Jun 2020
In reply to MikeSP:

I was reading up on rim width vs tyre width earlier - it seems there are strongly held and differing opinions - what a surprise!

Anyway, I've just ordered a WTB Ranger High Grip from CRC - thanks for the link Durbs. It is the same width and looks pretty similar to the WTB Trail Blazer which is what the bike came with and is what I flatted the other week. The front tyre, a 3 inch WTB Bridger still looks in good nick, which is interesting. I come to the conclusion that I pick a line and the front tyre takes that line - so often between rocks, or over them if necessary, whilst my back wheel I hear the sidewall of the tyre squeak and squelch off rocks because it isn't necessarily as accurately on the line I've chosen. I don't know if that true - but it sort of makes sense in that the tyre on the back looks more scarred and battered than the front and that's the one I flatted the other week (riding through the gritstone rock gardens you get up the top of Cut Gate!). 

Cheers everyone for their thoughts on this.

 ChrisJD 09 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

If they are the WTB Scraper, then you'll need narrower rims/wheels to downsize I reckon.

I had this wheel-set on a 650B plus bike. But gave up on plus tyres as was getting through a tyre-a-ride with split sidewalls (it was an early 650B HT and the tyre choice was limited). I tried beefier ones, but no fun with road drag, so gave up with plus.

But I've run two 650B+ HT frames with normal wheels/tyres with no issues

OP TobyA 09 Jun 2020
In reply to ChrisJD:

I just recently bought some Hunt 4 season disc wheels for my gravel bike which is my commuter and do everything bike really - they are great, but I've never spent so much on wheels before! Might not be able to justify doing it again for the MTB.  

But it looks like finding picking some Plus tyres from the smaller selection now available is the most cost effective way of keeping this bike on the road (or bridleway more accurately).

 crustypunkuk 10 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I run 2.8 maxxis rekon rear and high roller front both set up tubeless on my ht and I've literally never had a single issue with them. They're both exo versions which I think have reinforced sidewalls. My syncros rims are 35 or 38 wide.

Maxxis do a wide tire version of many of their range specifically designed for wider rims. 

I've found patience to be the best plan when it comes to finding bargain 2.8 tyres- they do come around, but not as often as standard sizes.

 Durbs 11 Jun 2020
In reply to crustypunkuk:

> I've found patience to be the best plan when it comes to finding bargain 2.8 tyres

Also, need HUGE amounts of patience when it comes to changing them. Seriously, every time I've had to change my tyres, it's been 2 hours to get the feckers off/on

OP TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Durbs:

Since going to tubeless on my gravel bike last autumn, and then puncturing one last winter - which wouldn't seal with just sealant or once I put a plug in it, then getting new wheels, soon followed by new tyres for that bike, I seem to have spent many many hours arsing about with tyres over the last 10 months or so!

Once I got the tires on my MTB set up tubeless years ago, beyond topping up sealant a few times (through the valve - dead easy) and pumping them up if the bike hasn't been used for a month or two, I've not need to do anything to them! That's partly why my 'issue' high on the moors along way from anywhere the other weekend was so upsetting!

OP TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to crustypunkuk:

> I've found patience to be the best plan when it comes to finding bargain 2.8 tyres- they do come around, but not as often as standard sizes.

Yeah - I guess I should keep a look out for a replacement for my front as well. So far not issues with that, but who know if I rip out the sidewall on my next ride!

 ChrisJD 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

> Since going to tubeless on my gravel bike last autumn

I'm tubeless on the gravel bike and also use MSC Mousse liners front and rear (on 40C).

https://www.shop.terraventure.co.uk/collections/msc-mousse/products/msc-tir...

Means can run slightly lower pressure, especially in front, to give a more grip/comfort.  The Mousse liner could be a bit more robust (they have split), but it definitely helps, and not heavy (adds 44g per wheel).

But I take my gravel bike down things like the Beast & Lockerbrook

 Monk 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

First question, have you topped up the sealant in the last 5 years? This is often why they stop holding air. 

OP TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Monk:

Yes - back this spring, perhaps around the lockdown starting, I noticed the front tyre was soft. I hadn't put any new sealant in since last summer time, so added a good dose to both tyres. Once I had done that, then the front held pressure perfectly again. The back was fine, but still got a top up. When I was trying to sort it out on the edge of the trail when it went flat there was plenty of liquid sealant in there because it was the normal messy job! 

 Jon Greengrass 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

>but despite trying a whole series of things, including eventually putting a spare inner tube in, I couldn't get it to hold air so had a "nice" 15 km walk of shame back to the car.

I have been in the same situation twice, both times I took off the tyre and rode "home" on the rim to save a 2-3hr walk and a search and rescue situation resulting from my delayed return. Altough my bike has cheap wheels. If I'd had fancy rims I would have made sure to have packed a tyre boot as well as an inner tube to cope with sidewall rips.

> My MTB is nearly 5 years old.  I only use it for "proper" off road riding, predominantly in the Peak... no suspension.  aggressive rocky stuff like coming down Jacob's Ladder from Kinder... I have ridden a lot of rocky terrain on the bike and the back wheel definitely has scars on it. I suspect that is most likely to be what did it... I'm slightly worried that with it being a fully rigid bike, without a big squelchy tire up front it might be a really harsh ride. ...Although, of course, then buying a new one with full suspension starts seeming like a plan.

650+ is almost a fat bike great for hooning rounds the local woods for an hour or plodding across soft peaty/sandy singletrack footpaths of Moors. Not the tool I'd have picked for rocky peak district descents.

definitely time for a 29er FS bike.

OP TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Jon Greengrass:

> definitely time for a 29er FS bike.

If you'd buy me one Jon, or at least explain to my better half why I really need one, it would be hugely appreciated! 🤣

I have stroked the Sonder Transmitters in the Alpkit shop on many occasions, having ridden with no suspension for years, perhaps just some front would be enough!  

 ChrisJD 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I went from the Transmitter (set up non-plus DH tyres with 160mm Pikes) to a 29er Cotic SolarisMax with equalling long forks and big tyres.  The Cotic is the way to go for sure.  And I loved the Transmitter, so that says a lot for the Cotic.

I've hardly ridden the FS since getting the Cotic, love it.

... I do have a XL Transmitter frame (perfect for someone around 6 foot) that I need to sell on 

Post edited at 15:10
 Jon Greengrass 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

> If you'd buy me one Jon, or at least explain to my better half why I really need one, it would be hugely appreciated! 🤣

easy, because your old bike is obsolete you can't get replacement tyres

OP TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to ChrisJD:

Unfortunately I'm well under 6 foot, otherwise I might have been interested.

My MTB guru - an old uni mate up in Glasgow who has been seriously into most types of mountain biking for 25 years - keeps whispering "Cotic" to me. He seems to think because they're steel and come from the Peak that what I need - I try pointing out they're not the most affordable to say the least! Anyway it was him who five years ago persuaded me I wouldn't miss suspension with plus wheels, although I think he's sold his Surly of that style in the meantime - obviously moved out of his IPA sipping hipster soul-cyclist phase!  🤣

 ChrisJD 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

> explain to my better half why I really need one, it would be hugely appreciated! 

n = n+1 

A fundamental law of nature that is impossible to ignore

OP TobyA 12 Jun 2020
In reply to thread:

My new tyre was meant to come today (yes, 'meant'. Thanks Hermes! ) so I went to take the old tyre off and clean the rim up ready for the new one.

God - my hands and arms are still tired now hours later. It was a total fight to break the one bead which I hadn't unseated trail-side the other week. I guess a good few years of sealant getting in there had created a good... well, seal! At one point I thought I was going to need to cut the tire off somehow! Eventually brute force thumb force got one bit away from the rim, just millimeters enough to get a plastic tire lever in, but it still took another half hour of fighting it to manage to move the tire bead back from the rim the whole way around. Well at least I got some exercise!

 ChrisJD 13 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I found the Scraper rims to be flipping hard work to get the tyres off once they had been on for a while, so you are not alone.

A remember having to cut one off! (the tyre was spit anyway). Which is not an easy task either.

One last trick if you have run out of arms/finger power is to use a hammer & tyre lever on the bead - a short hit can sometimes unseat a tricky tyre bead off the rim.

OP TobyA 14 Jun 2020
In reply to ChrisJD:

New tyre arrived. Went on with just the track pump, almost sealed with no sealant in although the valve is leaking a little. As soon as I put the sealant in and re pumped it, it's sealed. Least hassle putting on a tubeless tyre so far I think! Hurrah! Great ride through the fresh mud at sunset last night.


 65 14 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

This probably not what you want to hear but I would also recommend Cotic for your purposes. I have a Solaris Max. It replaced a short-travel full-sus xc bike and a Stanton Sherpa, and I am very happy with it. Downhill segment pbs on Strava became a regular thing after buying it. While not light, it climbs very well thanks to its long rear triangle. 2.4/2.5 tyres and the long steel frame absorb a reasonable amount of shock.

 Durbs 15 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Yep, I took off my summer/road tyres in Februrary - the Schwalbe Super Moto-X - after an hour of squeezing, had to repeatedly stamp on the tyre to get bead out. Tough tyres, so they survived, but an absolute ball-ache, and risks knackering the rims too.

No sure if this particularly worse for + tyres, but I'm genuinely nervous about getting a puncture out on the trail as getting the tyre back on afterwards is an absolute mission.

Good looking tyres though

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi9R8wEj_Qb/

Post edited at 10:38
OP TobyA 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Durbs:

Where/what do you ride? The tyres look cool, but I can't imagine you can get much grip with them unless you are riding a lot of blank rock slabs?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who found getting the tyres off a pain!

I know what you mean about getting a flat out on the trail. Before sorting out the new tire I inspected the inner tube that I had failed to inflate when out on the trail the other week where all this sage started!  It had perfect snakebite pinch flat in it - it has to have some how happened when I was putting it in to the tire, because it was pretty hard to get the bead off the rim to put the inner tube in and even harder to get it back on to the rim!

Vaguely upset that checking this morning the new tyre had lost quite a lot of pressure - not flat by any means but obviously leaking a little somewhere... Will have to investigate further!

Post edited at 11:24
 ChrisJD 15 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Tyre plugs can often work out on the trail to save going for a tube (and having to fight the things of the Scraper rims), I got thru loads with my brief experience of mid-fat 650b+tyres.

The bead splits are the tricky ones to sort.

 ChrisJD 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Durbs:

Very nice looking tyres, but that front one would be useless in the Peak (unless you liked crashing a lot).

The back might be OK if super dry, but would certainly be 'exciting' with any moisture/mud about on the downs!

 Durbs 15 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I'm down south, so North Downs - but back in the "normal days" mostly it was through the common and on the roads doing school/nursery drop-off. 

They're actually pretty grippy on loose gravel, dirt, rocks - the benefit of the extra width. Terrible in the mud though!

 ChrisJD 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Durbs:

They do look very cool.

 ChrisJD 02 Jul 2020
In reply to TobyA:

How are the new tyres doing after a few rides?

OP TobyA 02 Jul 2020
In reply to ChrisJD: I only replaced the back one in the end, the one that had gone flat on Cut Gate. The new one, another WTB, fitted easily but after the first ride went down overnight. A bit of fiddling and I found that it was leaking at the valve. Fiddled with the tightness at the valve and put a little bit more sealant in, and it seems to be working fine now. The tyre seems fine it's only the rider who is biting off more than they can chew as ever! Photo dropping down into Eyam on a steep by way I haven't ridden before. Managed to do 120 degrees skid at this point! 😀

Post edited at 12:27

 ChrisJD 02 Jul 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Great stuff

That's part one of what we know as the 'Eyam Triple', its a good work out linking all three down to Stoney non-stop (there's some road up as well).

We should get out - I'll bring my X

Post edited at 13:00
 Durbs 02 Jul 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Just spotted "no suspension" includes no front forks! Can see the benefit for + tyres there.

OP TobyA 02 Jul 2020
In reply to Durbs:

I have a front fork! Otherwise it would be a unicycle. 😆


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