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Pogacar.. incredible!

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 minimike 20 Sep 2020

1:22 faster than dumoulin after attacking repeatedly (without much support) for 3 weeks.. superhuman!

3
 Weekend Punter 21 Sep 2020
In reply to minimike:

Dumoulin seems to have conceded defeat that he'll never be able to match Pogacar's performance in a TT.

2
 Fergal 21 Sep 2020
In reply to minimike:

Natty or on the juice!

1
In reply to minimike:

I know, quite the unbelievable ride that. 

I should imagine it is pure coincidence that he rides for a team managed by Matxin

 GrahamD 21 Sep 2020
In reply to minimike:

Interestingly, he did the climb without power meter or HR monitor. 

 Lord_ash2000 21 Sep 2020
In reply to minimike:

Yeah, he must have been in full beast mode up that hill final time trial climb.

I've ridden it before and (admittedly I wasn't in the best form at the time) it is an absolute killer on it's own. Constantly steep then right at the end when you're knackered, where its got Pinot Pinot Pinot written all the way up it kicks up to 20% and a total leg destroyer for the last 200m or so.

Unfortunately, we then had to ride down and do another 40km with another big hill in it to get home and I was broken by then.

 Weekend Punter 21 Sep 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

It's an amazing benchmark considering he outrode the 2012 sky train of Rogers, Porte, Froome and Wiggins who were all riding that day to drop the competition.

1
 compost 21 Sep 2020
In reply to minimike:

Given cycling's past, I always worry when words like 'incredible', 'unbelievable' and 'superhuman' come up. If it's un-believable, more often than not, it isn't believable.

In the case of the new generation of Pogacar, Bernal, Remco, Wout and Mathieu, I'm just not sure. Five once-in-a-generation talents at the same time? I really really hope there's nothing shady going on.

 James Gilbert 21 Sep 2020
In reply to Weekend Punter:

> It's an amazing benchmark considering he outrode the 2012 sky train of Rogers, Porte, Froome and Wiggins who were all riding that day to drop the competition.


...at the end of a 200km stage

 cb294 21 Sep 2020
In reply to compost:

Doping provision was made a criminal offence in Germany a few years ago. The first major trial under this law has just last week started in Munich, against a medic from Erfurt, who provided an "easy in - easy out" blood doping service, mainly for athletes in several winter sports. He would draw blood from the athletes some time in summer, store the blood as concentrate, reinfuse it for a specific event, and remove an equal amount of blood again right after the competition, to be reinfused again when required for the next event.

He even equipped a special van with a blood centrifuge and a built in lab standard fridge, with which he or his team members would travel from event to event. When he got busted in Austria, several biathletes and cross country skiers were caught sitting in their hotel room with the infusions still in their arms.

Interestingly, the case against him alleges that he not only served winter athletes from Austria and Germany, but that his clients also belonged to other countries, specifically including Slovenia, and other sports, again specifically listing cycling.

I am sure that there are some nasty surprises* in store as the trial procedes, as apparently he is looking at quite a few years in jail, and revealing his customers will help reduce the eventual sentence.

In addition, 8 of the 19 riders from Slovenia that have been riding in world tour races since 2009 have been banned for some time for doping offences, including Pogacar's own trainer Andrej Hauptman (ex teammate of Lance Armstrong). Even the UCI, not normally at the forefront of anto doping efforts, initiated a probe into what was going on some time last year.

CB

* sadly, not really.....

 Weekend Punter 21 Sep 2020
In reply to James Gilbert:

> ...at the end of a 200km stage

The limiting factor of any professional cyclist is FTP or specifically FTP per kilogram.

As Pogacar rode for 40 minutes at near threshold before the climb, this would mean his comparative effort over 55 minutes is even more remarkable.

1
 TheGeneralist 21 Sep 2020
In reply to compost:

> In the case of the new generation of Pogacar, Bernal, Remco, Wout and Mathieu, I'm just not sure. Five once-in-a-generation talents at the same time? I really really hope there's nothing shady going on.

Eh. What are you on about.  They're not once in a generational talents, they're 5 times a generational talents.

You can't have it both ways 😃

2
 ClimberEd 21 Sep 2020
In reply to compost:

> Given cycling's past, I always worry when words like 'incredible', 'unbelievable' and 'superhuman' come up. If it's un-believable, more often than not, it isn't believable.

I think the OP was being sarcastic.

But who gives a Sh*&^t. If you want to watch outstanding performances, then accept they may well be helped by PEDs. You'll almost never know with any certainty. . Enjoy it, or don't watch.

5
 DaveHK 21 Sep 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> > 

> I think the OP was being sarcastic.

> But who gives a Sh*&^t. If you want to watch outstanding performances, then accept they may well be helped by PEDs. You'll almost never know with any certainty. . Enjoy it, or don't watch.

I try to take every performance at face value but sometimes that's difficult.

In reply to cb294:

is it possible that during the various lockdowns across Europe that testing was less rigorous this year? 

 ClimberEd 21 Sep 2020
In reply to SFM:

> is it possible that during the various lockdowns across Europe that testing was less rigorous this year? 

Yes, that has definitely been mooted as a potential factor, shall we say

 JimR 21 Sep 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

Or couple of bars of dark chocolate and a shed load of Adrenalin. My take was that it was more Roglic losing it 

In reply to JimR:

I really want to believe Pogacar is clean. It’s just such an incredible result. After 3 weeks of racing, with very little support from his team compared to Roglic, to beat not only Roglic but also Dumoulin by nearly a minute and a half in the time trial, in only his second Grand Tour.... I haven’t been watching cycling that long, so I don’t really have a yardstick to measure this against, but I get the impression from listening to Podcasts that it’s hard to come up with a recent precedent.
 

It would be more comfortable to accept if there wasn’t the proximity of Slovenian cyclists to Operation Aderlass. But i hope that none of that is relevant, and that Pogacar is just one of these athletes that comes along every so often who is at a different level to their rivals- like Usain Bolt, or Michael Phelps, or Eddie Merckx for that matter.

 neuromancer 21 Sep 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

And therefore without any measurable evidence kr proof of his effort levels or work-rate.

Ahem.

VAM guesses estimate his wpkg on the climb to be about 6.8.

That's after 40 minutes at like 6-6.3.

He literally has no precedent in his training data for that kind of performance fresh. 

I loved the stage, I loved the tour and love the drama. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

OR, to put it another way - either he is the next evolution of humankind and he actually doesn't fatigue from 3500km of racing over 21 days and actually improves his PB power by like 10 percent and we should bow down and meet our new overlord, or.. well.. I leave the conclusion to you.

​​​​

1
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> .... After 3 weeks of racing, with very little support from his team compared to Roglic, to beat not only Roglic but also Dumoulin by nearly a minute and a half in the time trial, in only his second Grand Tour.... I haven’t been watching cycling that long, so I don’t really have a yardstick to measure this against, but I get the impression from listening to Podcasts that it’s hard to come up with a recent precedent.

Not recent, but the example of greg Lemond in 1989 comes to mind, not just for the manner of his victory (a time-trial on the last GC-competitive stage). Lemond had a weak team, and although he had more experience than Pogacar (having already won one Tour), it was by no means clear even a few months before that he would ever recover from his hunting accident.

Lemond's win basically came out of nowhere, but I don't know that there were ever any (serious) rumblings about whether he was clean or not 

  

 GrahamD 22 Sep 2020
In reply to JimR:

> Or couple of bars of dark chocolate and a shed load of Adrenalin. My take was that it was more Roglic losing it 

Its both.  Roglic should 'easily' have posted better than Dumoulin, but that was still an exce``````ptional climb by Podacer.

 GrahamD 22 Sep 2020
In reply to neuromancer:

At the moment, the smoking turd isn't in the Slovenian's corner:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/54241358

 ClimberEd 22 Sep 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

> At the moment, the smoking turd isn't in the Slovenian's corner:

Yes, that's going to kick off.

 Glug 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Captain Fastrousers:

The difference for lemond was that he used aero bars, so it was technology that helped him win. 

> Not recent, but the example of greg Lemond in 1989 comes to mind, not just for the manner of his victory (a time-trial on the last GC-competitive stage). Lemond had a weak team, and although he had more experience than Pogacar (having already won one Tour), it was by no means clear even a few months before that he would ever recover from his hunting accident.

> Lemond's win basically came out of nowhere, but I don't know that there were ever any (serious) rumblings about whether he was clean or not 

In reply to GrahamD:

Always good to see the tour end on a high ;-)

In reply to Glug:

That's true of course; doesn't say anything about how Lemond got to be within that time frame of Fignon after 3 weeks. Nobody in June 1989 would have had Lemond down as a serious GC threat. 

(I guess having the defending champion turn up to the Prologue 2 minutes late was also a confounding factor)

 cb294 22 Sep 2020
In reply to SFM:

 Not merely possible, proven.

CB

 dabble 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Glug:

> The difference for lemond was that he used aero bars, so it was technology that helped him win. 

Was it the mint ones? They're my favourite.

In reply to Glug:

> The difference for lemond was that he used aero bars, so it was technology that helped him win. 

Yes, that made a big difference. And when the EPO era kicked in not long after that Tour, LeMond was nowhere, which may indicate he wasn't on the sauce so much, though that is circumstantial at best I guess.

In reply to neuromancer:

How unusual was it for Pogacar to do the TT without a power meter or heart rate monitor? Both in terms of what proportion of other team leaders would use them, and whether he has used them previously ...?

 Sans-Plan 22 Sep 2020
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I don't think it's that unusual, he won't have been the only one, he knew what he had to do, 5k at threshold is a very measured effort and one which any pro should know how it feels at any given time.

Post edited at 13:01
 neuromancer 22 Sep 2020
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

He did the TT with a PM, and he is sponsored by stages so their PMs aren't the best in terms of dropouts or power errors. UAE put out a load of media about how it was a tactical decision, but in reality it's a very rare choice these days for either him or other riders.

Another factor most people don't seem to be talking about is the fact that Lazer f*cked up bigtime with roglic, giving him a tt helmet that didn't fit him and jumped about - and that for some moronic reason the UCI decided to force roglic to wear the shit issued 'yellow jersey skinsuit'. Theres is absolutely 0 chance it would have fit him or helped him perform at his best against one he had tested for years.

The UCI was fiercely hot on inspecting bikes this year - as evidenced by the expulsion of the TJV bloke for getting into an argy bargy with the commissaires after they removed roglic's crank shitly and nearly broke it. I wonder if they had as easy access to the bikes that would appear 'on the road' for competitors?

 Weekend Punter 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

I can fully understand the psychology of riding to feel in order to get the best out of a rider given how much of a prize was at the end of the effort.

However whether intended or not, the team are now in an unfortunate position that they are unable to provide power data should an exceptional performance be called into question.

I'm guessing the subject of performance passports will be back on the UCI agenda.

 Sans-Plan 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Weekend Punter:

Who knows, he may have just wanted to race with a clear head and not worry about numbers, he could still have ridden with power and computer but kept it private if it was required, he does upload to Strava so seems quite open about his numbers.

There is only one thing (as we know from the Armstrong era) that will prove or disprove wrongdoing and that's a positive test or an admission, hopefully for the sport neither of which will be forthcoming.

 Hardonicus 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

What was it Armstrong said. Something along the lines of, "I've never tested positive" wasn't it!?!

 Sans-Plan 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Hardonicus:

Well he wasn't lying, he never did test positive. There is a few to choose from to be fair.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jan/18/lance-armstrong-doping-denials-quotes#:~:text=Jan%202004%3A%20%22I%20have%20never,take%20performance%2Denhancing%20drugs.%22

PS: I may get some flack for this but i quite liked Armstrong as a racer, he was just a by-product of the abuse that was going on in cycling, admittedly a big lying by-product but he was just doing what the rest of the peloton was doing.

Post edited at 14:06
1
 Hardonicus 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

I was a Jan Ullrich fan.  Anyway probably only time will tell about pogačar.

 felt 22 Sep 2020
In reply to cb294:

> including Pogacar's own trainer Andrej Hauptman (ex teammate of Lance Armstrong).

You're not getting your Andrej Hauptmans and Janez Brajkovics mixed up?

 Sans-Plan 22 Sep 2020
In reply to RX-78:

Yeah, Jan was awesome, he seemed like a genuinely nice guy caught up in something not of his own doing.

 Sans-Plan 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Hardonicus:

Quintana maybe wasn't partaking ! He's always been overrated IMO anyway, I don't like the way he rides, just seems a bit wishy washy.

 DaveHK 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> PS: I may get some flack for this but i quite liked Armstrong as a racer, he was just a by-product of the abuse that was going on in cycling, admittedly a big lying by-product but he was just doing what the rest of the peloton was doing.

I reckon if he hadn't been such an utter c**t he might have got away with it.

 cb294 22 Sep 2020
In reply to felt:

Seems I did! Anyway, the principle stands, Hauptman, now Pogacar's coach, was given a ban before the 2000 Tdf due to elevated hematocrit, when he was riding for Vini Caldirola.

Thanks,

CB

 James Gilbert 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> PS: I may get some flack for this but i quite liked Armstrong as a racer, he was just a by-product of the abuse that was going on in cycling, admittedly a big lying by-product but he was just doing what the rest of the peloton was doing.

The United States Anti-Doping Agency labelled him a "serial" cheat who led "the most sophisticated, professionalised and successful doping programme that sport has ever seen".

 Sans-Plan 22 Sep 2020
In reply to James Gilbert:

Yep, like I say, he wasn't the only one, you can add many many other names to that list too.

This is an interesting (and pretty awful) graphic:

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/sports/top-finishers-of-the-tour-de-france-tainted-by-doping.html?action=click&module=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article&region=Footer

Post edited at 15:59
2
 Glug 22 Sep 2020

nd that for some moronic reason the UCI decided to force roglic to wear the shit issued 'yellow jersey skinsuit'. Theres is absolutely 0 chance it would have fit him or helped him perform at his best against one he had tested for years.

It is always the same, whoever is in yellow for a time trial has to wear the issued skin suit, they alter it to fit the night before. 

 DaveHK 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> Yep, like I say, he wasn't the only one, you can add many many other names to that list too.

Sorry, no. You're not getting away with the idea that Lance Armstrong was just another cyclist who doped.

Plenty of other cyclists doped but I don't know of any others who deliberately and systematically set about destroying the lives, careers and reputations of those who spoke against them.

 ClimberEd 22 Sep 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> Sorry, no. You're not getting away with the idea that Lance Armstrong was just another cyclist who doped.

> Plenty of other cyclists doped but I don't know of any others who deliberately and systematically set about destroying the lives, careers and reputations of those who spoke against them.

Sorry. I'm not getting on board with that.

'Performance Cyclist Armstrong' - very successful, another cyclist who doped, amongst lots of others who also did so.

'Personality Armstrong' - absolute cu*nt. 

They can be separated.  

5
 1932 22 Sep 2020
In reply to neuromancer:

>- and that for some moronic reason the UCI decided to force roglic to wear the shit issued 'yellow jersey skinsuit'. Theres is absolutely 0 chance it would have fit him or helped him perform at his best against one he had tested for years.

That's always the way it is though plus Pogacar was in the White Jersey skinsuit so no difference between them. Skinsuit doesn't make a great deal of difference on the climb in any event which is where it really got away from him. 

Post edited at 19:08
 cb294 22 Sep 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

No they cannot. He was not only doping, in part leven egally (the hormone treatments after his testicular cancer can be tailored to become absolutely effective steroid doping, the permitted thresholds are ridiculous), but he set up a framework that ensured any positive tests would conveniently disappear, e.g. by compromising UCI by having them accept "donations".

CB

edit: and don't even get me started on his bloody pseudo-charity.....

Post edited at 19:04
 1932 22 Sep 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

I don't think they can be completely separated. Much of the reported intimidation (Filippo Simeoni etc.) was specifically linked to the issue of doping. I'm not aware of anyone who has mounted such a determined campaign against the doubters before or since. 

I actually find post confession Armstrong quite entertaining  and interesting despite all of it, though I wasn't a fan during his racing days. 

Post edited at 19:09
 DaveHK 22 Sep 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> They can be separated.  

Cobblers. The c*ntyness and the doping sprang from the same pathological desire to dominate. And his doping was different from a lot of others, he ran the show.

1
 ClimberEd 22 Sep 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> Cobblers. The c*ntyness and the doping sprang from the same pathological desire to dominate. And his doping was different from a lot of others, he ran the show.

We will agree to disagree. I think he's great.

11
 ClimberEd 22 Sep 2020
In reply to cb294:

I don't agree but can understand why you might think that about his cycling, person, etc.

But his charity. It has done a vast amount for people who have cancer, and attacking that is below the belt. 

6
In reply to Hardonicus:

> Seems like team doping hasn't helped Quintana much this Tour...

If doping gives you 2%, isn't it remarkable that others are beating Nairo and co seemingly with ease? 

 GrahamD 22 Sep 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

Doping done well might give you 2%.  A budget team and a below par Quintana (when did he last really feature on GC) I doubt would be anywhere near.

1
In reply to GrahamD:

I've always wanted to get on a program and see what results I'd get as a total amateur.  

At the elite end, and over the course of a race like the tour, even 0.25% is a huge margin. It makes me suspicious of everyone. Ofcourse, it's not a case of a magic injection and being super human. Obviously, it has to be done well with a holistic program of training, diet, recovery, equipment, strategy, technique, psychology etc.

Anyone been on the EPO?

 DaveHK 22 Sep 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

> But his charity. It has done a vast amount for people who have cancer, and attacking that is below the belt. 

LA used the charity as smokescreen to cover up his toxic personality, bullying and doping. I think that's below the belt.

Post edited at 21:15
 DaveHK 22 Sep 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

>  I think he's great.

Really?

 ClimberEd 22 Sep 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

Well, you can watch Icarus.

Or you can read about this guy here:

https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test?page=all

 gazhbo 22 Sep 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> Yeah, Jan was awesome, he seemed like a genuinely nice guy caught up in something not of his own doing.

Lovely chap.  Like when he beat up that prostitute.  Everybody else’s fault.

 1932 22 Sep 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

> If doping gives you 2%, isn't it remarkable that others are beating Nairo and co seemingly with ease? 

Not really. He was pretty competitive until his crash. I think using individual examples is always a bit misleading, so many variables and good form is ephemeral and unpredictable. 

For me a historical perspective is more useful. Since the 1960s, and probably before, drug use has been common in the sport. I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if that wasn't still the case. 

 tehmarks 22 Sep 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

I remember reading this article a few years ago and thought it was quite interesting:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32983932

 ClimberEd 23 Sep 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> LA used the charity as smokescreen to cover up his toxic personality, bullying and doping. I think that's below the belt.

That doesn't negate from the good the charity did and does.

8
 cb294 23 Sep 2020
In reply to ClimberEd:

The charity mainly polished his image, distributed idiotic self help books and his family even profited from it financially.

CB

1
 DaveHK 23 Sep 2020
In reply to cb294:

> The charity mainly polished his image, distributed idiotic self help books and his family even profited from it financially.

> CB

Not to mention the lucrative speaking contracts for cronies like Phil 'the shill' Liggett.

@ClimberEd, I think you could do a bit more reading on the work of Livestrong during the years Lance was involved, it might surprise you.

1
 Sans-Plan 23 Sep 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> Sorry, no. You're not getting away with the idea that Lance Armstrong was just another cyclist who doped.

That's exactly what he was!

Admittedly he and the team elevated it to another level, he wasn't the only one doing the things he and his team did but due to his attitude he was the only one that was exposed to such a level, the rest of them (and its a long list of names and teams) took the omerta and still do to this day.

2
 ClimberEd 23 Sep 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

> >  I think he's great.

> Really?

Perhaps 'interesting' is a better word.

He obviously isn't a good person

In reply to tehmarks:

> I remember reading this article a few years ago and thought it was quite interesting:

Very interesting! I could do with being able to see better...

 Hardonicus 23 Sep 2020
In reply to tehmarks:

Where's Wiggins and his hayfever remedy in that chart?!

Post edited at 10:45
 abr1966 23 Sep 2020
In reply to tehmarks:

Thanks for that link....very interesting!

 felt 23 Sep 2020
In reply to abr1966:

Yeah, makes you want to go and score a bit of HGH on the dark web, and they can keep the old edgar.


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