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La Vuelta highlights are on Quest on Freeview, presumably the Eurosport version. Itv don't seem to have taken up their option on them, which is a shame.
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In reply to cragtyke:
> Itv don't seem to have taken up their option on them, which is a shame.
Their approach to the Grand Tours for years seems to have been all of the Tour, highlights of the Vuelta, none of the Giro
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In reply to nufkin:
Yet again I am on this thread to say one thing: full coverage of the entire race is about £7.
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In reply to ianstevens:
Better still, get yourself a subscription to GCN Plus. At £40 a year, even if all you watch is the 3 grand tours and the 5 monuments, that works out at about 60p per race day.
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In reply to cragtyke:
SPOILER ALERT
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DSM - poor buggers looked miserable in the hot seat rather than being able to go off for a hot shower.
Hopefully nobody forced to abandon due to crashes.
Post edited at 21:21
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In reply to cragtyke:
Why was the race so late in the evening? It was dark, and to make things worse, it rained… I fully understand the frustrated reaction of Evenepol.
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
Just watched some very brief highlights on YouTube, it was carnage out there in the rain and dark. It should clearly have started earlier.
> Just watched some very brief highlights on YouTube, it was carnage out there in the rain and dark. It should clearly have started earlier.
This shows the chaos:
https://youtu.be/EWxEqDX6kDU?si=c-fPTFMasGH8qazD
G says they are just pawns in the Vuelta:
https://youtu.be/NnBQXOjiYYc?si=dyyDHZUJXlcV29kJ
Post edited at 14:42
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In reply to Christheclimber:
Do they have wet weather tyres for the bikes? Or is it too much hassle to change them with tubeless tyres?
In reply to SteveJC94:
> Better still, get yourself a subscription to GCN Plus. At £40 a year, even if all you watch is the 3 grand tours and the 5 monuments, that works out at about 60p per race day.
Well yes, but if you only want to watch one race just pay for the month
In reply to ianstevens:
Yes well.
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In reply to ablackett:
Nothing is too much trouble as they have mechanics and spare wheels but I've not heard of wet weather tyres being used.
Post edited at 21:25
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In reply to Pedro50:
Quite. This is one of the prime reasons for wishing that ITV carried all the Grand Tours, never mind saving £7
(Though of course GCN/Eurosport doesn't have bafflingly targeted ads for funeral plans and donkey sanctuaries. They giveth and then taketh away)
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In reply to elsewhere:
Wet weather tyres don't help, because its not the water so much as oil that is making it slippery. In a hot dry climate the road surface absorbs oil overt time which then floats out onto the surface when it gets rained on, when you hit a wet oily patch its like black ice.
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In reply to cragtyke: I really enjoyed the highlights of yesterday’s stage on Quest last night, what a finish!
Sepp Kuss looked like a happy man crossing the line and he certainly got stuck into the Cava.
Martinez 20yo in red, how long before a teen leads a grand tour?
In reply to elsewhere:
Bit of a meat grinder today, it looked like. Hard to fathom how the pros seem to take getting so horrifically tangled and shredded in their stride.
In reply to cragtyke:
Urggh, yes. There’s been some dodgy course planning this year but some of those crashes were on straight uncomplicated roads. I’ll take Quest, happy to have it, but it’s clearly a budget setup and some of the pictures they’re fed are questionable!
In reply to ablackett:
GCN+ commentary mention wet weather tyres and choice of tyres today, so it looks like you are right - they do have the option of wet weather tyres.
Great day for JVM. Mountain super-domestique Sepp Kuss takes leader's jersey - well deserved after all he's done for his team leaders. Roglic sprints to take stage and deny Evenepoel some bonus seconds - great result for JVM and great teamwork.
So does Kuss have two hyper-domestiques in Roglic and Vingegard?
Roglic looks incredibly happy.
In reply to elsewhere:
> Roglic sprints to take stage and deny Evenepoel some bonus seconds
Although either Remco is a pretty good actor or he didn't realise they were sprinting to for them?
In reply to RobAJones:
Any idea how Kuss is in a time trial?
26km individual time trail follows the rest day on Monday. That distance is long enough to re-shuffle the GC.
Post edited at 19:45
In reply to elsewhere:
> Any idea how Kuss is in a time trial?
I'm not sure how hard he has tried in the past, although in the Tour he wasn't far off the top 10 so did more than go through the motions . On one hand he lost over 3.5 minutes, on the other he beat Stefan Kung.
> 26km individual time trail follows the rest day on Monday. That distance is long enough to re-shuffle the GC.
Remco to win, but Kuss to stay in red, just? Would make an intresting couple of weeks
In reply to RobAJones:
JVM director sportif may decide JVM leadership on Tuesday evening as Kuss may be overtaken in GC by Roglic and/or Vingegard in time trial.
It's a nice problem to have - GC jersey with a couple of grand tour winners as backup.
In reply to elsewhere:
> JVM director sportif may decide JVM leadership on Tuesday evening
If Roglic/Vingegaard are in red or ahead of Kuss after the TT it's an easy call to make, but there are plenty of permutations that will mean it isn't.
In addition to Remco, I'm hoping UAE might mean JVM don't make it a procession.
In reply to RobAJones:
> Although either Remco is a pretty good actor or he didn't realise they were sprinting to for them?
I didn't understand your comment, but seeing Evenepoel interviewed he says he thought there were some people off the front!
Post edited at 20:56
In reply to elsewhere:
> thought there were some people off the front!
Plenty of examples of someone celebrating thinking they have won, but I can't remember anyone not trying to win a stage because they thought somebody already had?
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In reply to RobAJones:
JVM were trying to do a proper job on Remco yesterday....I thought he rode vary astutely. I was pleased for Kuss as he's a class act and deserves the jersey but with Roglic and Vingegard in the team I'm not sure they will be keeping him there. My money is on Roglic although I'd prefer Remco to take the tour...
In reply to abr1966:
> JVM were trying to do a proper job
Sounds like it was more of the same in the crosswinds at the start of today's stage. Pity it wasn't on TV
In reply to cragtyke:
Well THAT was a hell of a result on the Tourmalet!
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In reply to elsewhere:
Didn’t see that coming. Is Remco unwell? A minute or two lost wouldn’t have been a big surprise, but dropped on the second climb of the day?
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Yes, a shocker. A real pity to see him lose so much time.
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/vuelta-a-espana/2023/remco-evenepoel-not-...
The JVM trio looked happy with their incredible 1, 2 & 3 on the stage AND 1, 2 & 3 in the GC AND likely pink, yellow & red clean sweep of grand tours.
They had some sponsorship troubles but that should be easily resolved!
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a44213716/more-sponsorship-woes-for-jumbo-vi...
Post edited at 22:43
In reply to cragtyke:
Remco - amazing that it's physically and psychologically possible to go from grupetto zero* to stage winning hero in 24 hours.
*he was never a zero, but it rhymes.
In reply to elsewhere:
Meanwhile, I don't think I've seen Ineos quite so lacklustre (Pippo excepted).
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In reply to elsewhere:
> Remco - amazing that it's physically and psychologically possible to go from grupetto zero* to stage winning hero in 24 hours.
>
Piece of piss. Ask Floyd Landis.
E
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In reply to Enty:
Serious question: could you really take that much 'pick me up' and still remain undetected these days ?
In reply to Enty:
> Piece of piss. Ask Floyd Landis.
I've always wondered, was that a physiological or psychological (placebo effect) pick me up?
I think it was testosterone. Is that an overnight pick me up or long term muscle building hormone?
The suggestion from commentators is that once Remco was out of the GC contention, better to lose half an hour than flog his guts out to lose ten minutes but hinder recovery for subsequent stages.
Post edited at 11:21
Kuss keeps red on Angliru today, thanks to his "team mate" Mikkel Landa of Bahrain Victorious leading him to the line but not taking the bonus seconds for third.
JVM committed to the 123 clean sweep, but which 123?
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In reply to elsewhere:
Interesting dynamics in team JV. You'd think a Kuss victory with it's "team player rewarded" narrative would play better to potential sponsors rather than it's every man for himself. From the post race interview it seems it's Roglic rather than Johnas that's pushing for the personal win. Can't be good for future team unity.
Post edited at 17:22
In reply to JLS:
> Interesting dynamics in team JV. You'd think a Kuss victory with it's "team player rewarded" narrative would play better to potential sponsors rather than it's every man for himself...
Quite the opposite (IMHO). JV are turning what should be one of the top cycling races of the year into a soap-opera of internal team dynamics. I don't think that does the sport, the team or the sponsors (by extension) any favours.
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In reply to Marek:
It's not JV's fault they have the luxury (or curse) of internal team dynamics due to insufficient competition from other teams.
What do you think for Thursday? Longer distance and more climbing than today but the final climb "only" half that of Angliru.
Vingegaard looks strong enough to take red, I don't think Roglic can beat Vingegaard and if he does not by enough to take red.
Although anybody can have bad day and drop minutes in the mountains.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/la-vuelta-2023-route-stage-map-...
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In reply to elsewhere:
> It's not JV's fault ...
No it's obviously not*, but how they dealt (are dealing) with it could be better. Personally I'd have preferred a public statement a few days ago along the lines of "OK, all team orders are off the table, SK, JV & PR are going to race this out mano a mano a mano. May the best man win."
As for Thursday, I don't know. I've sort of lost interest in the Vuelta 'racing' this year.
* Although given that they brought such a dominant team to the Vuelta - effectively against one man (RE) - the current situation wasn't entirely unpredictable.
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In reply to cragtyke:
Kuss on the team radio just before he was dropped by Vingegaard and Roglic: - Go guys!
In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
except that it was said team radios were lost up on the Angliru, so lots of questions on how true this social media posting was on twitter by JV team...
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In reply to JLS:
You assume that Jumbo believe Kuss has the legs to finish it off. The likes of Mas are still not completely out of it.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
At least it was confirmed by the team.
> except that it was said team radios were lost up on the Angliru, so lots of questions on how true this social media posting was on twitter by JV team...
In reply to GrahamD:
> You assume that Jumbo believe Kuss has the legs to finish it off. The likes of Mas are still not completely out of it.
He hasn’t. Today’s stage was a giveaway.
In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
> He hasn’t. Today’s stage was a giveaway.
There’s only one hilly day left right? Jumbo would have to have major issues for Kuss not to finish in red now?
In reply to Arms Cliff:
It's hilly on Saturday but only Cat 3 climbs so not big enough to be a GC day
Although there's TEN of the Cat 3 climbs with 4361m of climbing. Despite that Kuss should keep the red jersey.
Supposedly they decided Kuss was the leader at a team meeting yesterday evening.
Post edited at 21:59
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In reply to elsewhere:
Vingegaard has been saying several times now that he really hopes Kuss to win. If Kuss does not blow up, he will end in red.
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
I wonder if the Team Principal got a talking to from the sponsors about media coverage of dynamics within the team and how it would be a good idea if Kuss won.
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In reply to elsewhere:
Maybe, but I believe, the so-called “dynamics within the team” were entirely made up by said media.
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In reply to elsewhere:
Yes! AFAIK Jumbo Visma are looking for a new sponsor for next year so having an American GC winner in the team may improve their appeal to any potential US investors.
I'm glad I'm not one of the JV directors, it's a difficult situation to manage. I'm pretty sure Vinny could have taken a minute on Kuss yesterday, and is being stopped just short of winning two grand tours in one season which is a pretty special thing to do!
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In reply to gimmer:
Back on the TdF 1986, Lemond & Hinault were much less civilised - Slaying the Badger by Richard Moore is a great read about the rivalry between the two riders from the La Vie Claire team.
It's before my time but Bernard Tapie sounds like having Trump or Bojo running a cycling team.
Back on the TdF 1986, Lemond & Hinault were much less civilised - Slaying the Badger by Richard Moore is a great read about the rivalry between the two riders from the La Vie Claire team.
It's before my time but Bernard Tapie sounds like having Trump or Bojo running a cycling team.
In reply to elsewhere:
From a PR point of view, of course it would be great if Kuss won, but if I was the DS and knowing how much Kuss has already done this year I wouldn't be betting on it until around about now. We've seen major cracks from even supposed GC riders deep in the third week, after all. Simon Yates at the Giro or Primoz Roglic in the Tpur a few years ago.
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In reply to gimmer:
> .... I'm pretty sure Vinny could have taken a minute on Kuss yesterday...
And given Kuss's earlier comments about not wanting to be gifted the win does make the situation a bit 'odd'.
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
> Maybe, but I believe, the so-called “dynamics within the team” were entirely made up by said media.
Roglic said that he had his "own thoughts" about the race strategy of supporting Kuss.
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/vuelta-a-espana/2023/primoz-roglic-gives-...
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
> Roglic said that he had his "own thoughts" about the race strategy of supporting Kuss.
I have my own thoughts about someone referring to some other one mentioning he has his “own thoughts” about something.
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Evenepol I think had the mountain jersey in the bag already but he really went for it again, looked gutted to loose the stage.
And JV duo very overtly supported Kuss and got the photo op.
Survive one more day and they get the incredible podium 123.
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In reply to elsewhere
> Survive one more day and they get the incredible podium 123.
And the 123 Grand Tours !
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
And Kuss winning a Grand Tour on his third Grand Tour finish of the year.
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
The Jumbo Visma branding experts have been at work - pink, yellow, red T-shirts & jerseys of "The Grand Tour Trilogy 2023".
Post edited at 16:23
In reply to elsewhere:
> The Jumbo Visma branding experts have been at work - pink, yellow, red T-shirts & jerseys of "The Grand Tour Trilogy 2023".
Indeed. Did you notice the pink, yellow and red stripes on their standard black jerseys too?
In reply to GrahamD:
> And Kuss winning a Grand Tour on his third Grand Tour finish of the year.
A gift and a marketing trick.
Who was the strongest?
In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
> A gift and a marketing trick.
But you can't attack the pink/yellow/red jersey worn by a teammate.
> Who was the strongest?
Vingegard
Great stage, pretty unusual to see the mountain jersey and points jersey holders in a sprint/final stage breakway.
And the breakaway got caught but still a breakaway rider took the stage.
Post edited at 19:54
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In reply to elsewhere:
> But you can't attack the pink/yellow/red jersey worn by a teammate.
I suppose that rule is for when the captain is in the lead
> Vingegard
I am Danish, so my vote doesn’t count
> Great stage, pretty unusual to see the mountain jersey and points jersey holders in a sprint/final stage breakway.
> And the breakaway got caught but still a breakaway rider took the stage.
Rolf Søren commented the entire Vuelta on Danish tv, and apparently he was out of his chair out of cheer excitement because of the finish. Unfortunately, I didn’t watch it, as I was out climbing.
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
> A gift and a marketing trick.
> Who was the strongest?
I'd say Vinegaard was the strongest but, playing devil's advocate, Vingegaard had a puncture in the first half of the TTT on stage 1. Had the team not waited for him to get a bike change and instead put all their efforts behind Roglic, Vingegaard would have lost minutes on that stage. Goes to show that even if you're the strongest in the race, you still need a good team behind you to win.
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
There is only a certain amount you can gift someone, though.
That pink, yellow, red colour scheme is genius marketing as it represents an incredible dominance, as does the clean sweep of the Vuelta GC podium.
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In reply to GrahamD:
> There is only a certain amount you can gift someone, though.
Yea, you could give away the Vuelta without showing everyone you are the strongest.
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
> In reply to elsewhere
> And the 123 Grand Tours !
And people used to complain about the dominance of Sky!
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Yes, well. Well, yes.
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
A gift and a marketing trick.
Who was the strongest?
Not unusual for the strongest rider not to win a GT. Obvious example is Oscar Pereiro who got in a breakaway and got 30 mins lead which ended up being enough over the three weeks - similar to Kuss stage 6 getting in breakaway and attacking and soloing to the win gaining time on his team mates. He then did his amazing ITT keeping the pressure on. He also crashed in stage 7. On stage 8 Kuss attacked on the final climb, Remco eventually towing JV and PR back to him and they all passed him at the end. He goes into Red. Stage 13 on Tourmalet, JV attacks gaining 1 minute on Kuss, Kuss thinks "sod this" and puts on the after burners pulling 30 seconds back on JV, stays in red. But now JV and PR are second and third behind him
Stage 16 JV attacks him on final climb, then Roglic attacks him, but can't make it stick, Kuss, abandoned manages to hang onto Roglic only losing a few seconds. Then Angliru, and Bahrain try to set pace but Jumbo crack them with the hoy trinity 1/2/3 on the upper slopes, at which point JV and PR attack Kuss. He latches onto Landa and defends his lead and limits losses to 19 seconds. JV and PR both attacked their team mate and race leader leading to broad cycling world disgust at their selfish tactics breaking the unwritten rule of not attacking your team mate if he is leading the race. This media storm seems to have banged their heads together and PR gave an insight into the team tactics as he cryptically said he had his own thoughts on them - of course, after this stage they start to behave like a team and defend their race leader.
Now If that's your idea of a gift for Kuss, then I wouldn't want to spend Christmas day with you
Post edited at 13:49
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In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
> Now If that's your idea of a gift for Kuss, then I wouldn't want to spend Christmas day with you
There would be no gifts left. We do that on Christmas Eve
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In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
The "gift" was that, as a non GC contender (?!) He was allowed in a strong breakaway.
Another Jumbo Visma 1 2 3 at the European road race championship. It's getting to be a habit.
https://www.teamjumbovisma.com/race-report/news/laporte-wins-european-title...
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In reply to elsewhere:
And rumours of a merger with Soudal - Quick Step for next year. Remco would obviously strengthen them further (too much) not sure who else, not even Alaphillipe on this year's form, would get a spot on the roster
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In reply to RobAJones:
> And rumours of a merger with Soudal - Quick Step for next year. Remco would obviously strengthen them further (too much) not sure who else, not even Alaphillipe on this year's form, would get a spot on the roster
Trouble for the World Tour teams - not enough sponsors to go around?
In reply to RobAJones:
>"And rumours of a merger with Soudal - Quick Step for next year. Remco would obviously strengthen them further"
At the time of Remco's Vuelta GC colapse it did cross my mind that perhaps his "off day" was due to contract negotiations not going his way; I was thinking about the rumoured transfer to Ineos. With all the talk of Soudal merger I'm even more inclined to believe there may have been a lot going on behind the scenes that could have demotivated Remco. It'll be interesting to see if Ineos are still part of the equation. I can't see any new super team having all those stars. The wage bill would be horrendous.
In reply to JLS:
The riders are so competitive they will race hard through crashes, injury & illness - it has to be a very "off day" to stop them. A good GC result is highly motivating in itself and important for contract negotiations but a perception of not racing hard would be bad for contract negotiations.
It's illogical to think Remco was demotivated, although humans are the least logical thing known so that may be 1234% wrong.
https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a45328041/could-apple-sponsor-jumbo-visma/
The wage bill could be petty cash or rounding error, Apple currently has a "cash pile" of $166Bn.
https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/sectors/sp500-companies-stockpile-...
Post edited at 12:33
In reply to elsewhere:
>"It's illogical to think Remco was demotivated"
I say that depends if he's come out the big loser in the negotiation. If Patrick L for instance had said to Remco, "I need to down size the team. We shall be dropping out of the World Tour so there will be no guarantee of entry to major races. Ineos offered me a wad for your services and you would have got a big pay rise but I decided to hold on to your contract to help find a new sponsor for 2025."
In reply to JLS:
I think once Remco decided there was no way for him to compete in GC at the Vuelta, there was no point in having a 'slightly off day'. Doing what he did (maybe with team endorsement) gave him a chance to at least get something for the team.
In reply to elsewhere:
> The wage bill could be petty cash or rounding error, Apple currently has a "cash pile" of $166Bn.
How attractive is cycling for sponsors? Isn't another part of the problem, even though they have been incredibly successful this year, finding a replacement for Jumbo doesn't appear straightforward. I also find it concerning that the number of races is being cut over the next few years, they can use the quality v quantity argument, but I'm not convinced it's a good sign. Hopefully it won't impact the recent improvements in the women's set up.
In reply to cragtyke:
So attacking your teammate was a job application: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racing/primoz-roglic-confirms-he-will-leave-j...
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