UKH

I have decided that if I am going to take this bike touring  further, new bikes are needed, that will at least take panniers.

I have decided flat bars are the way ahead.

Any bike will do that will take panniers, but something a bit better may make the process more pleasant.

I did consider Rohloff hubs, but bikes with them are super expensive, and possibly more of a target for thieves.

If looking at flat bar bikes in the UK the choice seems to narrow down, I have considered the new one from Decathlon, but its not that cheap and I have a decathlon bike, which is Ok but I did need to take it to a local bike mechanic to get it sorted.
I have narrowed it down for the moment to 
Genesis Tour de Fer 10 FB https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-tour-de-fer-10-fb-vargn21400 
and
Tour de Fer 20 FB https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-tour-de-fer-20-vargn21420.

Now I have sold beds for many years and people often ask me questions like what's the difference between a £1000 bed and a £1600 bed, and I can tell them the specifications but tell them its personal preference and that they may prefer the cheaper one. What I do not tell them is that in reality I often do not think they can tell the difference and that all they need is a decent new bed and that anything will be better than the 20 year old thing they are sleeping on.

So is this really the case with these two bikes, and if they fit right, either will suit?

ps. it maybe I will have to have what I can get as bikes are in short supply ATM, but time is not of the essence and I can wait

pps, the worst people to sell beds to are engineers and the people who most often get it wrong are engineers. They over think it and get too involved in the specifications.

In reply to J1234:

Are you set on a  Genesis?

https://spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s225p0/Bikes/Touring

or https://www.thorncycles.co.uk/bikes

Off the top of my head make very nice bikes.

Also decathlon - I used my Triban 500, flat bars, 3 cogs at the front (i.e. granny gear) for a little tour over to the IoM a few years back (stopped at B+B, not roughing it!)

In reply to Andy Hardy:

looked at the Spa cycles, maybe worth another look.

I think I want a kickstand, and I suspect that I would clash with the owner, maybe I might even be a bit like him

I have a Triban 500 with drops and want flats,  reasonable bike, but I think maybe something a bit more expensive will be nicer.

In reply to J1234:

Well, that's not an easy choice! They're are not just two versions of the same thing at different price points. There are significant differences with pros and cons of each one.

Overview: They both seem to be the same frame so the heart of the bike is a constant.

CdF 10: This only has a compact double chainset. If you're looking for a loaded touring bike, it immediately reduces your range of low gears. The upgrade path would mean spending more money / faff. It's better to have gears in reserve than always wish you had more. I know Bradley Wiggans (et al) have toured with all their camping gear for a family of five on a single speed bike, but . . . 

The cheaper bike also has hydraulic disk brakes. This is more of a personal choice - they're either a huge improvement over mechanicals or something that's going to develop a leak and leave you stranded at the top of the Galibier with night drawing on and four foot of snow forecast . . . I've always thought that even cheap mechanicals are more than adequate for touring. 

It doesn't have much ancillary stuff like racks and mudguards and cages.

CdF 20: This has a triple chain set and pretty low gears which is great. But . . . although some of the extra money has been spent on better quality drivetrain, a lot of it has gone on mudguards, racks and a dynamo lighting system. This all probably represents good value for money if it's the stuff you want. Certainly the racks and mudguards are fine, but the dynamo / front wheel has pros and cons. With GPS and phones, having some on-board charging is great. As long as the stuff it comes with is the basis of a charging system that works for you, then that is great. But don't buy stuff up front that you will want to replace. 

Which takes us to wheels. Reliable wheels pretty much underpin touring happiness. With either of these, once you've done a 800 / 1000 miles, take them to a good wheel builder and have them re-tensioned. Well worth the £30.

So if the cheaper CdF10 had a triple I would say that was the best buy which would leave you with £650 to buy racks / mudguards / cages and go a long way to buying a set of touring wheels from Paul Hewitt with the charging system of your choice at some point down the line. But as the cheaper bike only has a compact, I wouldn't go there. I think I would broaden my search to Hewitt / St John's Street cycles / Edinburgh Coop / Ghyllside Cycles / Spa Cycles / etc.

In reply to J1234:

it's the same bike with cheaper / more expensive drive train & gearing components, the more expensive one has:

more gears,

better gear mechs (although the level of improvement is possibly moot),

nicer looking cranks,

front rack and lights.

if you test-rode each you might be able to feel the difference; e.g. spongy gear levers, feeble plasticy gear click..... or you might not.

In reply to J1234:

Rohloff hubs are pretty niche and probably not worth the money unless you're going round the world. Plenty of people use them for other stuff and like them but they are different from derailleur gears and feel quite different. I've recently got a shimano hub gear (alfine 8) for my commute bike and it's great for that job but made me think I wouldn't bother with a hub gear for touring.

In reply to J1234:

basically what Jim Said.  As per the other thread, not having enough gears can really ruin stuff for you and the compact on the 10 is going to leave you short.  The Genesis are great value for money if you want everything they have on them (the tubus racks are nice), but if you don't want the hub dyno etc you can get more for your money elsewhere.

I don't know for sure, but with that hub dyno it may not even be possible to plug in ancillaries, and likely that it would have to be a battery pack which you then use to charge phones etc seperatly as you have to spend a lot on a dyno to get a clean enough signal to charge fickle electronics directly.

O.

In reply to J1234:

Genesis bikes are pretty well thought out. I've got a Longitude which with different wheels and tyres I use for mountain biking, off-road touring and on-road touring.

Something to think about is exactly what you will be doing as this will inform what type of bike will be best.

If it's onroad, summer touring in not very remote areas then a lot of what's on that more expensive genesis won't really be necessary. For that kind of touring I've never felt the need for dynamo lights and it's a matter of preference whether you want front panniers.

Also, if you are set on flat bars that opens up a whole lot of options for hydraulic discs which are definitely preferrable to the mechanical ones on both those bikes. I suspect they've gone mechanical for self repair/maintenance but if you're not in really remote areas there's no reason to choose mechanical discs.

In reply to J1234:

https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-tour-de-fer-10-fb-vargn21400
Chainset unknown but triple on photo
Shimano Alivio SL-M4000 3 x 9 Speed
Shimano CS-HG400-9 11-32T

https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-tour-de-fer-20-vargn21420
Shimano FC-T611 44-32-24T 170 mm
Shimano Deore SL-M6000 3 x 10 Speed
Shimano CS-HG500 11-34T

https://www.cyclesolutions.co.uk/75184/products/genesis-tour-de-fer-10-2021...
SHIMANO FC-T4010 48-36-26T 
SHIMANO CS-HG400-9 11-32T

9 speed
26T -> 32T cassette lowest gear
48T -> 11T highest gear

9 speed and if you really need lower gears RD will take 12-34T or 12-36T cassette
26T->36T lowest gear is almost the same as 24T->34T for 10 speed

48-26+36-12=46 <-- almost within 45T capacity of Alvio RD-M4000, unlikely to be an issue 

10 speed
24T -> 34T cassette lowest gear
44T -> 11T highest gear

Worth contacting seller to verify exact chainset and exact rear derailleur.

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-alivio-m4000-9sp-rear-derailleu... <-- 36T max sprocket

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Shimano-CS-HG400-Alivio-9-speed-cassette_72777.htm <-- 12-36 cassette

I reckon 9 speed and change cassette to 11-34 or 12-36 if necessary (it might not be). New cassette is a cheap upgrade, may need new chain with some extra links.

In reply to J1234:

Thanks everyone, here is my plan.
This year for sure a week or more touring Lincolnshire, Suffolk and Norfolk, camping, maybe easter, but covid dependent. I do not know the area, so thats a draw and I believe its not hilly, so thats a draw.
ASAP a longer tour in Europe, camping where possible, maybe linking up the Rhine, Moselll and Rhone. 
If we are enjoying this, cycle to Turkey, I believe this is possible and not too extreme, as for the first 1000 miles or so its not too hilly, and I think by then I/we will be well up to hills.

I was going to get a camper van, but TBH amongst many other things, I like meeting local people and think that in a camper van you will always be "apart" from the locals, but on a bike you appear more normal and can approach people and be approached more easily.

I cannot foresee cycling for days across a dessert or mountain range, why do that when there is a perfectly good train.

I certainly need to get my head around these gear numbers and sprocket sizes,

In reply to J1234:

Firstly, don't over imagine the difference between the middle of France and middle of no-where when it comes to bike shops and repairs. Neither is over endowed with places that sell touring bike bits, and those places are getting rarer every year. Bikes are really reliable if you take care of a few basics, carry the odd spare and have a modicum of skill. So the preferred outcome is zero breakdowns as this is the most enjoyable and time efficient way to spend your holiday. And it's neither that expensive or difficult to achieve.

There's plenty of tutorials on the internet, but it'll all remain a mystery until you reduce all the different sprocket / wheel size / gear combinations to a simple single number you can then compare. The 'continentals' have a system that computes it all as the distance advanced per pedal stroke, but that requires difficult things like 'pi' and millimeters.  The simpler alternative is the good old British system that converts all the gear ratios to the equivalent diameter of a penny farthing front wheel, measured in inches. Something we can all relate to.  In this system you want to make sure you have a bottom gear of about 18 inches ( a diddy, easily pedalled front penny farthing wheel) and forget about anything much over 100 inches ( clearly a massive diameter for the front wheel of a penny farthing). And there you have it.

In reply to J1234:

This website can be useful to compare gear ranges and spreads and can have a play with various options to see how they compare.

http://ritzelrechner.de/

This should be the setups on the 2 bikes, not sure on the chain ring sizes of the TdF 10 

http://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB=22,32,44&RZ=11,12,14,16,18,21,2...

Of the 2 genesis bike I would probably go for the TdF 10 and upgrade the brakes to a hydraulic discs. Unless you are planning on wanting to charge phones and other accessories whilst riding in which case a dynamo and converter are useful although can be slow compared to using a battery pack and recharging it every few days from the mains.

In reply to J1234:

Flat bar. Excellent choice.

This will also open up access to MTB components, like proper disk brake systems.

In reply to J1234:

I really think it will be worth us going to this test facility https://www.defietser.nl/fietsen/ we actually have a credit with P and O for Hull - Zeebrugge, so that cost is already paid.

The problem with these bikes is it all get so technical, maybe I should be focusing on finding my size and looking at secondhand bikes more. Where would you look for second hand?
Gumtree
Ebay
Facebook
Cycle Forums
anywhere else.

I am 5' 11.75" is there a number that I should particularly look for that would indicate size please?
I am thinking if I spent £700 or £800 wisely on a secondhand bike, then £400 or so with a good bike mechanic, that might be the way ahead.

In reply to J1234:

 

The price of second hand bikes is crazy at the moment as a result of the limited supply and excess demand triggered by Covid.

In reply to J1234:

Not really my type of bike but I'm pretty shocked that a flat bar bike at over £1,000 let alone one at over £1600, wouldn't come with hydraulic brakes. My "sports hybrid" that I had nearly 15 years ago had deore hydraulic brakes and they were superb. It was for a long time one reason to get a flat bar over a drop bar, because hydraulic technology for brakes was becoming the norm on mountain bikes so could go onto flat bar hybrids and tourers, while hydraulic integrated brake and gear levers on drop bar bikes were prohibitively expensive. But now you can get drop bar gravel bikes for £1,000 with full hydraulic brakes so I'm not sure why they wouldn't use them on a flat bar tourer?

I went from that sports hybrid with hydraulic brakes to a cyclocross bike with mechanical disc brakes, and the brakes with the worst thing about the cyclocross bike, which otherwise I loved. When I replaced it with a gravel bike a couple of years ago having hydraulic brakes was one of my biggest requirements. The tiagra hydraulics on my new bike you are superb.

In reply to gethin_allen:

A good time to sell our Triban 500s then, I will wait until it warms up a tad.

In reply to J1234:

I think the most important thing for cycle touring is to find a bike that is comfortable to ride,  is well maintained and has durable but easily serviceable parts. 

In addition to Thorn and Spa, the Oxford bike works site is worth looking at for specification ideas.

In reply to J1234:

I like Genesis bikes but looking at both of these I'm not persuaded at the price.  The basic geometry of the Croix/Tour De Fer frame is superb, long standing and versatile but neither of these offers it in a particularly high quality steel, so weight will be high, especially for the  TdF10 which I think must be a lower quality steel than the Reynolds 725 used for the TdF20.  I'd describe the components on both bikes as "adequate" but they do make compromises.  Given your plans, I'd suggest the TdF20 is the one to go for because of the improved 10spd shifter/derailleur quality but your paying a lot for that and still not getting hydraulic brakes.   The pannier racks look good and are a nice inclusive accessory but I'm less convinced by the dyno hub and light.  I run SP dynamo hubs but only when I need to.  Like all hubs they have a limited lifespan but dynamo hubs are generally both shorter lived and hard/impossible to service. So I'd suggest you fit a standard wheel for general use, offsetting the benefit of an inclusive dynamo.  SP hubs are widely used and reliable but the model fitted here is not one I recognise and so may be a low cost production.  B&M lights are top quality but I would assume the TdF20 is fitted with one of their lower end models and you may well be better off with a separate, higher quality purchase of lighting.  Furthermore, battery/USB light performance has developed to a level where the benefit of dynamo lighting is questionable.  The dynamo is a valuable tool for charging navigation devices and phones while touring but you would need to add a converter to this package before this would be possible.  A similar flat bar bike that I think looks better value and better "balanced" in terms of component quality, is the Giant Toughroad SLR1.  It has an aluminium frame which some would say is not an option for touring but frankly I wouldn't agree unless you are going to ride really rough and hard.  On the plus side, the Toughroad will be lighter than the Genesis models.  The high volume tyres will add comfort but will also be a bit slower but could simply be swapped for narrower tyres to suit the ride.  Unless speed is the top criteria, 50mm is an excellent tyre size for comfortable loaded leisure touring, although 42c-35c is the traditional range.  The Toughroad also comes with pannier racks and has all round better componentry, including hydraulic brakes and an excellent 2x10 gear range for touring that should see you coping with the stiffest climbs even with full loads. At around £1200 it's worth a look.

In reply to TheSooper:

Thats great, thanks for taking the time to post that.
I have read through, but will again.

In reply to J1234:

For what it's worth, I'd be wary of a flat bar for an extended ride - very limited hand positions.  However, stick with the principle, buy a bike with flat bars and then buy an after-market bar with a bit of a sweep.  Far more comfortable and still compatible with a wide range of gear and brake levers.  Have a look here https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars-comfort-cruiser/

We fitted some to my wife's sit up and beg electric bike and it's transformed.  Watch the length of hydraulic hoses though (cables are cheap).......

Fog penny-fathering gear inches, you need Sheldon Brown gear calculator (google it)

In reply to nniff:

I always held to this advice until I realised that my MTB had flat bars and I was quite happy doing long days on it! If flat bars work for someone there's no reason for them to look for alternatives.

That said, I love the Planet X Jeff bars I now have.

In reply to DaveHK:

Totally. I did a c. 12000km ride on flat bars. Never found the lack of hand positions an issue! For long distance touring flat bars are still the default option - your body soon adjusts to the bike you’re riding.

There's review of the TdF 30  in the CTC magasine (Two grand tourers).

Generally quite impressed but makes the same point that the gears are too high for a touring bike. Reckons a better alternative is one of the Spa cycles offerings at a little over half the price.

https://spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s225p4106/SPA-CYCLES-725-Trekking-Bar-Steel-Tou...

In reply to Jim Lancs:

Does it say that in the article, I will have another look. That Spa bike looks the ticket. Not keen on those bars, but otherwise, looks great. I saw the thing about gears and for me the gears are really important, joking aside I want to give myself a shot at riding up some hills. Also Harrogate is a nice drive out for me so a shop I can visit, lockdowns permitting. Thank you.

In reply to J1234:

Yes in the summary and then lists the Spa Wayfarer in the 'Other Options' box. But the Spa website is a bit of a mess and I couldn't see exactly which one they favoured.

But their 725 Trekking looks okay. It has rim brakes but I've never found these a problem with touring bikes. And if you want flat bars (available as a no cost option from Spa) then V-brakes are a perfectly powerful option. 

The other thing with that Spa, is he sources proper touring triple chainsets. The one offered is with your choice of rings including a 24t bottom. That with a 36 at the back gives you the 18inch bottom gear which is about as low as is practicable. 

In reply to Jim Lancs:

TBH we favour rim breaks, because when we have used our Mountain Bikes on the road the Disc Brakes seem to squeak, which is annoying.

Thank you for the advice on the gears at the end of your posting.

I think we shall have a ride to Harrogate as soon as it is practicable.

In reply to J1234:

Brakes - as opposed to 'breaks' :

One option some favour is to have a V-brake on the front fork (so that you can have a more compliant/comfortable fork) and disc on the back (so you don't have to worry about overheating rims on long hot downhills). Not a specific recommendation from me, just what I've heard.