UKH

Before I begin, I want to state clearly that I do not consider the prejudice suffered by "cyclists" as important as that suffered by those with protected characteristics as defined by the Equality Act 2010. 

What I'm interested in are the real reasons as to why so much prejudice towards cycling and cyclists exists in the UK seemingly much more than in other countries especially in northern Europe.

I'm sure we're all used to and well versed in the usual tropes wheeled out as soon this form of transport is mentioned.  "Cyclists" are often treated as a homogenous group and behaviours generalised and exaggerated as being common to all. It is rarely considered that "cyclists" are also very likely to be regular pedestrians, motorists, "road tax" payers or more easily described as normal people who happen to also occasionally ride a bicycle.

The usual purported crimes and inconsiderate behaviours of "cyclists" are often rebutted vociferously by normal people who ride a bicycle. It seems the crimes are committed by a relatively small minority of cyclists. Indeed, it is probably the same proportion of motorists, pedestrians, dog-walkers, joggers, climbers, (insert any homogenous group here) etc. who are also considered as inconsiderate.

We could venture that a minority of normal people.... are inconsiderate.

I presume the same proportion of normal people in northern European countries are also considered inconsiderate.  Yet their societal uptake of cycling and cultural attitude towards it seems so much more accepting and progressive.

So... why is prejudice towards cycling and cyclists so prevalent and accepted in the UK?

In reply to Crazylegs:

I'm going to guess that some of the reasons include the fact that we have fewer cyclists so more of the population see cyclists as "other" rather than people like them. Also, our woeful cycle infrastructure means that bikes don't really "belong" anywhere. We are a nuisance on the roads or a nuisance on the pavements!

There is bound to be a miriad of reasons, but those strike me as being fairly big ones maybe

In reply to girlymonkey:

Yes I agree to some degree although these seem like vicious circles. The prejudice is possibly preventing sufficient investment for good infrastructure.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I think there is a level of jealousy. Cyclists are often relatively healthy people who are visibly seen to be doing something to improved their well-being. 

Crabs in a bucket. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

Erm there's not really a polite way of putting this... It's because the UK population taken as a whole errs towards being an ill educated, ignorant, selfish, narrow minded bunch of £##@+(.

See also recycling, Brexit, virtual Perpetual Tory rule etc

In reply to Crazylegs:

I think a degree of it is down to drivers experience interacting with cyclists and their perceived view of how cyclists behave. In cities there's a perception that cyclists "get in the way" and are always jumping red lights whereas in the country this doesn't seem to be the case. This seems to fuel more hatred of cyclists in cities, especially London. Anecdotally I seem to elicit different responses from drivers when riding round rural parts of Lancashire, Cheshire or the Peak (where drivers are almost always very considerate) compared to on the home stretch in central Manchester (where I'm far more often honked at or passed closely).

I think a lot of drivers would act differently if they tried cycling for a day - I definitely became a much more careful driver after taking up cycling. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

I've always felt that one of the main reasons for the animosity towards cyclists it because the British are so enslaved to their cars that they have a feeling of entitlement and see cyclists as a threat to their motoring freedom.

In reply to Crazylegs: I have no answer but unfortunately can only agree . Aside from touring  I’ve ridden a road bike a fair bit in Spain And a  bit in France and Italy . The only negative interaction in all of that ,  was in Spain , with a Dutch driver . A Close pass, common place here ,  just doesn’t happen . A memorable ( but one of many ) positive one in Spain was when me and a  mate held up a convoy of cement lorries on a pass ,  when we finally found a safe place to pull over and let them by we were rewarded with a salvo of horns , smiles and thumbs up out the window . Maybe it’s that in Main land Europe everybody is in less of a hurry all the time , so the the 30 seconds or so you hold them up is neither here nor there whereas here , it’s , well , obviously very f£&king important.( “ don’t you realise I’m in a hurry ?” )  .
Maybe it’s that there are just too many people in too small a space ? 
 I live In a rural area and generally riding a road bike is quiet pleasant . however . I used to take my road bike with me  when visiting my mum in the midlands and go out to stretch my legs / escape  etc but the last couple of times I rode out into the peak from the east midlands were verging on traumatic . I decided I’d sooner watch Oprah interview a feckless royal than take my life in my hands like that . 

In reply to Crazylegs:

Yet to meet someone who claims cyclists break the law all the time who cannot say they never break speed limits, jump ambers, use their mobile while driving etc...

In reply to bouldery bits:

Yes, and there's got to be another, deeper level of jealousy about how good my tanned, shaved legs look in my bodyhugging lycra. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

As a cyclist and a 4x4 driver I get both barrels from both sides.

Tbh cyclists are generally not a problem, but I do come across the lycra clad groups who seem to want all the road and act like inconsiderate pricks. 

We no longer have the baseline that nearly everyone cycles to school or work so most people don't appreciate the risks of cycling and the decisions cyclists may make. Also I think it's a sign of modern selfishness....drivers think they have the divine right to occupy the roads unhindered and many cyclists are equally resentful.

It's more complex though as many adults drivers are also  cyclists!

In reply to bouldery bits:

Rather than jealousy, I wonder if it's a perception on urban roads that cyclists are (often) achieving some kind of advantage and it's thought of by the nearby motorist as underserved e.g. advanced stop lines, filtering, using the road + adjacent cycling infrastructure as they see fit/feel safe.

When I was a younger/naïve cycle commuter, I used to wonder why the drivers in the traffic jam into and out of the city didn't see me zipping by unimpeded and immediately abandon their cars and convert to 2 wheels. It seemed so blatantly advantageous and obvious to me. I'm a bit older now and resigned to the fact that one person's enlightenment is another's anathema.

In reply to SteveJC94:

I think this so-called prejudice towards cyclists is a strawman. There are some car drivers who treat cyclists with disrespect and some cyclist who do not follow the Highway Code. I know very few people who are just cyclists or just motorists; most I know do both. It's usually those who label themselves as "cyclists" who bring this up. In much the same way as driver's should look at their own driving before criticising others, cyclists should perhaps check that their cycling is following the Highway Code. For example: have their bikes got the necessary lighting for driving after lighting up time? Are they signalling and shoulder checking before making sudden turns? Are they cycling on pavements instead of the road? Are they hogging the entire road and holding up all the cars behind them?

In reply to Crazylegs:

we were only just talking about this at work.

the way the majority of drivers act around cyclists is disgusting and dangerous.

i wont cycle any more.

like others have said,its the self self attitude of a large portion who cause this.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Have you actually ever read the comments on any story involving cyclists? Whether it's on FB, the Mail, the Times, Twitter etc you can guarantee that below the line huge amounts of vitriol will be being directed at the cycling community. When you add that to the experience of being honked at, being close passed and being cut up (ETA: or actually maimed and killed with seemingly no consequences for the drivers responsible) it's easy for cyclists to feel somewhat embattled.

Nice victim blaming. The cyclists were probably asking for it. What do they expect to happen if they go around wearing short skirts and walking home alone at night?

In reply to mark s:

I tend to agree with you. I was a keen cyclist and as I’ve aged drivers have changed quite a bit. It’s not worth it for me unless it’s mainly offroad.

Very good OP. Thanks.

I’m now lucky enough to live on the edge of the Peak, so don’t see much urban traffic and usually ride alone. I'm a keen road cyclist rather than mountain biker or city commuter and, as others have noted above, think there's a couple of deep issues at play,

First, we’re a society that relies on cars. Our car culture isn’t as aggressive as the Aussies, and it may change shape if we’re serious about eliminating carbon emissions, but our attitude must be unfathomable to most Europeans

Second, (road) cycling’s a minority sport that gets hardly any media exposure. Today is a case in point, no mention of Paris-Nice in this morning’s paper. This creates the perception of cycling as a “monstrous” other, among car enthusiasts and people who play popular sports alike.

Out on the road, my reaction to prejudice is just to ride assertively, stay out of the gutter and remind car drivers that I've got as much right to space as them.

In reply to John Stainforth:

I truly believe that the vast majority of "cyclists" do exactly as you suggest and follow the highway code and act considerately, as do most motorists.

How would you describe your and others' disproportionate focus on the wrongdoings of cyclists?

In reply to artif:

All the road or all the lane? If the latter what's wrong with that?

In reply to Crazylegs:

I honestly think it's just that cyclists are one of the few minority outgroups it's still socially acceptable to abuse. I mean, you can't say anything about the women, the gays, the asians or the blacks nowadays so people have got to get their hate fix from somewhere.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Are they hogging the entire road and holding up all the cars behind them?

On anything other than a principal road, if I'm riding ca. 1m from the kerb and you need at least the same again to pass me safely, then yes, depending on opposite traffic, I'm likely holding you up.

Residential streets and rural roads can be narrow. I guess you're going to have to wait until I can pull over in a convenient place. 

Thanks for your patience.

In reply to Crazylegs:

Drivers are taught to make progress and cyclists are hazards to negotiate.
 

This by its nature presents anything in front of a car as an obstruction. Be it a slower moving car, lorry, tractor, a cyclist, horse rider or a pedestrian/runner using or crossing the road. As such if you are operating a slower vehicle you are perceived to be causing an obstruction. 
 

There’s a ‘must get in front’ attitude. 
 

Change that mentality and you’ll fix all the current problems we have on the roads.

In reply to mark s:

I have had a police officer tell me that they no longer cycle on the road as it isn't safe anymore. 

I have cameras mounted front and rear on my bike now and my local force have told me that unless I am actually hit by a vehicle I should not report an incident as they do not have the manpower to deal with the number of close passes that are reported in our area (my commute is pretty rural btw)

In reply to Crazylegs:

1) They shame the rest of us as the fat and lazy people we are.

2) We are jealous of their fitness and presumed punctuality.

3) We are British, our roads are so congested they're effectively queues (which are of course the only religion of note) and, in a not technically accurate yet deeply ingrained way, cyclists are "pushing in".

4) The lycra does look pretty stupid to be fair.

In reply to Shani:

As I said earlier I'm a cyclist and 4x4 driver.

Most recent of many similar incidents. Last week driving down a rural road wide enough for two cars to pass easily. Two lycra clad roadies riding two abreast and far enough apart so that I couldn't pass comfortably, looked at me but carried on for some distance, chatting and riding slowly, I waited patiently at least 50m behind them and turned off the road. I suspect the cars behind me weren't so patient. They were quite obvious with their intention to hold up the traffic.

As an ex bmxer and mountain biker I've done a fair bit of riding that doesn't meet the highway code, but I wouldn't deliberately hold up traffic. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

If I came over as disproportionate, I expressed myself badly. My intention was to be as even-handed as possible. I've had a new bike this last year, during the lockdown, and I confess that I have only taken it out a few time around the lanes because I don't find it very relaxing: too many drivers are driving too fast around the bends in very wide vehicles. (Decades ago, when vehicles were smaller, there used to be more passing room.)

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Like it.  Some advice... Aspire for 2) so that you can improve 4) by tackling 1) and you can then smugly enjoy all the benefits of 3).

In reply to Martin Wood:

I am not talking about most cyclists but those who cycle two-abreast for miles and miles apparently oblivious to the queue of cars behind them.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I occasionally do 4) because I feel 1) but never enough to be get the right side of 2) because I live in the city and there's too much of 3) to get through to get anywhere nice.

In reply to Crazylegs:

Several parts to it I think.

As you say for some reason people seem to have difficulty distinguishing between different groups of cyclists. When it comes to driving we have multiple stereotypes but for cyclists its at best lyrcra clad something or other or just a blob of every category under the sun.

Secondly many car drivers seem to have difficulty understanding that they arent stuck in traffic vs that they are part of the traffic and take it as personally offensive that either cyclists overtake them or are perceived to hold them up.

Thirdly there are the bottom feeders in the press who are finding their targets more and more legally restricted and so resort to cyclists to spew bile against.

In reply to artif:

I won't pretend to know the detail of the situation you encountered here but I don't know any (of very many) cyclists that would purposefully hold up traffic for no reason.  On a rural road, I use my road position to imply to following cars whether I want them to overtake (safely) at a particular time. When in a group, the safe overtake will take longer and so an experienced group will again use road position to imply (by filtering to the left) when safe to overtake.

When followed by a longer line of cars, once the overtaking starts, it's common for the 2nd, 3rd etc. cars to gun it too and very often one chancer has to pull back in too soon resulting in a terrifying close pass due to an oncoming car or bend.

I will make no apology for holding up cars for a few seconds to manage driver behaviour and guarantee my safety.  And it really is seconds!

In reply to Crazylegs:

Anti-cyclist prejudice does result in deaths and injuries though.  "Stupid clown on a bike, I'll teach them a lesson...oh sh*t".  Protected characteristic it's not but it's pretty serious when it goes wrong.

I don't think you were trying to say it wasn't but my 2cp.

In reply to Bobling:

I agree with you. I guess I was predicting a "Get a grip, there's much worse discrimination out there" comment from someone. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

Its not helped by our densely populated island; density twice that of France and 20% more than Italy,  Germany etc. Add that to the perception that our UK lives are more stressed, longer at work and always busy, people seem to have no patience at all. Cyclists can be a good scapegoat for drivers to blame their journey time on...when actually problem is that there are too many drivers!

I have taken the plunge and bought a road bike, it arrives in a couple of days and I am worrying already about which roads might be safe enough to go out on!

In reply to Crazylegs:

Funny that I'm getting dislikes for pointing out cyclists can be part of the problem. 

I've had more than a few near misses with cars when out cycling, but cyclists are far from perfect and I've experienced several obstructive ones.

I used to go on group rides and we would always be considerate to other road users, but there seems to be a certain type of cyclist around these days that arent. 

In reply to artif:

If I don't feel a car can pass me safely, I am very much "obstructive". It's called taking the primary position and it is defensive riding. At the end of the day, I have to make sure I get to work, or wherever I am going, unscathed. I deliberately "obstruct", for example, when approaching traffic islands or on roundabouts etc. 

 On a shared use path, I treat walkers or slower cyclists the way I would like drivers to treat cyclists, I pass slow and wide and give plenty of notice.

In reply to artif:

You were on a "road wide enough for two cars to pass easily" presumably in your (large) 4x4...so were these cyclists riding within their lane/half of the road?

This would normally be done to prevent overtaking as it would be unsafe to do so - which is absolutely fine and legal, so I'm guessing the road was also winding and twisty? 

In reply to Wainers44:

Great to hear that you're getting a new bike.

Your confidence will grow quickly if you choose your routes well.  Don't necessarily use those roads that you (and everyone else) drive often... look for quieter roads if possible. Cyclestreets.net and other tools like Strava routes and Komoot are really helpful for ideas. 

It'll be useful to learn about road positioning and taking the primary position which can feel uncomfortable initially but really helps to prevent close passing.  

Enjoy your freedom!

In reply to Crazylegs:

Thanks thats really helpful

I did my time as a motorcyclist for many years, and although not exactly the same I know exactly what you mean about road positioning etc.

Looking forward to getting out,  although I have been talked into entering the Lakesman in Lockdown half,  so 56 miles on the new bike and a half marathon await.....

Might be selling a pretty new condition bike just after Easter...!!

In reply to Crazylegs:

It's a car obsessed culture, combined in many cases with laziness. The better the car that sits outside their house, unused for 23 out of 24hrs, the greater status folk perceive they have. Silly car will equal just as expensive road tax, so they feel they've bought their right to own the road. It's possibly down to insecurities. 

You can't buy status with a bike, although some try. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

There are roots in those b&w films of masses leaving factories on their bikes. It was once the class war, you aspired to get off your bike and into a car, bikes are for plebs.  I got all sorts of grief for using a bike as transport in the 1980s and it was mainly snobbery based then.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I fully agree with you, but it's not just cyclists. It's pretty much anyone using the road who isn't using a motorised four-wheeled vehicle. Motorcyclists get the same treatment. Just like cyclists there are a minority of motorcyclists who act like dicks, and so this is used as justification for abusing all of them. Try walking in a road with no footway and you'll get similar treatment, car drivers who don't care for your safety as they think you shouldn't be there.

I blame the isolation of being in a car. Sealed in a box cut off from the outside world people quickly forget that those other road users are people too.

In reply to Crazylegs:

In the Netherlands everyone is a cyclist so there cannot be prejudice against cyclists. Possibly in places like Spain and France where there is much more space cyclists do not come into conflict with other users of the highway or countryside in quite the same manner as the UK.

I am a cyclist, a driver and a walker.

When I am cycling on the roads I do not think drivers appreciate how bad road surfaces are and that they should give more space.

As a walker, I find that cyclists sometimes try to command the path. If I am walking up a long bridleway and a couple of cyclists come past, I step aside, a cheery wave and a greeting, all good. However when a fully armoured MTBer comes whizzing around the corner with no ability or intention to stop, and I have to leap into the hedgerow, I do think dark thoughts. It is possible for a bike to stop for a walker, and I can think of no reason why they should not.
 

In reply to artif:

Seems to be a certain type of 4x4 driver that purchases a car unsuitable for british narrow roads and imparts this issue on other road users. Can you believe how entitled they are?! 

In reply to John Stainforth:

quod erat demonstrandum

In reply to Shani:

Whole lot of ASSumptions being made there.

Large 4x4? -Land rover defender (narrower than a BMW Mini)

Two cyclists one riding well away (over 1) meter from the kerb and second riding alongside over the centre of the road, both looked back at me but continued with their conversation.

Straight flat road for several miles 

Lets not pretend cyclists are saints in this debate, car drivers are far worse IMO, but us cyclists are not perfect either

In reply to J1234:

I am certainly intrigued with the cultural and environmental differences between the UK and other places. I just can't help feeling that we generally have a regressive (rather than progressive) mentality.

Just a point on your quoted experience though. It would be possible to change it as follows and it would still hold true to cover a minority of inconsiderate people:

However when a (insert any mode of transport here) comes whizzing around the corner with no ability or intention to stop, and I have to leap into the hedgerow, I do think dark thoughts.

In reply to Crazylegs:

Social media, particularly the local community Facebook Page, where I live seems to attract a lot of hatred towards cyclists. Two years ago a bus driver for a well known bus company said that he tries to drive his bus as close as possible to cyclists to push them off the road.  Whether he did do that or not I don't know but he didn't get called out publicly for his comments and got a fair number of likes for saying it. 

It does seem that people who chose to exercise on a bike or use one to commute are seen as targets rather than other humans.

(He no longer drives for that bus company as I took a screenshot of his comments and his profile page which stated he was a driver for their company)

In reply to Crazylegs:

It's strange how upset people get when Cyclists and Motorbikes filter down traffic. I think that is one good reason they are disliked by car drivers. But it reduces the amount of cars in the queue, so I don't know what the issue is.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I'm a car driver, cyclist, walker and horse rider. Every discipline has prejudiced people, every discipline has selfish people. As a driver I hold back from passing a cyclist until I can give them a wide berth with a clear road in front. I've lost count of the number of motorists passing cyclists coming towards me on a blind bend, causing me to swerve. So, I am prejudiced against certain drivers. However, I've also lost count of the number of cyclists around dusk, wearing black (dark clothing) and no lights, making them very hard to see. If, heaven forbid, I should accidently hit one I would have to live with the consequences of that for the rest of my life, as they would. So, I am prejudiced against certain cyclists. I'm also prejudiced against the mtb riders who demand you get out of their way on the bridleways (and footpaths), and the cyclists who appear silently behind me when riding my horse, without alerting me to their presence with a shout or, heaven forbid, a ring of their bell. I do appreciate those who do slow down (car or bike) and always thank them.

In reply to Crazylegs:

Absolutely, but the conversation is about cyclists and its only cyclists that come whizzing around corners on cycle paths. 

I always think that the rule of the sea is pretty good, big gives way to small, and powered to non powered, if I understand correctly. In the UK it always seems the opposite on the roads. Really people just need to be thoughtful and consider other people.

People need to try harder to understand how the other person is seeing things.

 

In reply to John Stainforth:

If ever there were an example of a strawman then this is it. On almost all roads it's not wide enough to safely pass a solo cyclist, or a group riding single file, if there is oncoming traffic - doing so would result in a close pass. So regardless of whether the group are riding single file or two abreast, you'd need to wait until there was no oncoming traffic and a clear line of sight in order to safely pass them, meaning that riding one or two abreast doesn't make a difference on all but the widest of roads, which tend to be busy A roads that most cyclists don't ride on.

Edit: any considerate cyclist (i.e. most of them) should check over their shoulder every minute or so and if there's a large queue, pull over when safe to let the traffic pass

In reply to tomsan91:

Mini's are wider than my old defender, but agree there is a certain type of person that drives a modern 4x4

In reply to phizz4:

How should a cyclist approach a horse. I am loath to ring my bell (or use my dog zapper on them) as it may startle them, but I am aware just appearing may startle the horse.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I use the same tactic myself, especially when riding with my 12 year old son.

In reply to artif:

You are absolutely right in saying that cyclists are not saints. They are normal people... a minority of whom behave inconsiderately.

There's a chance that you met some inconsiderate people (on bikes) in the experience you describe.  Think about the many hundreds of other cyclists that you have shared the road with and didn't even register in your conscience.

The prevalence of the prejudice I'm describing arises from ascribing the behaviour of the minority to a whole group. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

Because none of them, at least in London, obey the traffic rules.  Either stop at red lights and be given space, or run through them and expect to be run over.

In the Netherlands they are the scourge of the roads... an infestation of a otherwise lovely (if somewhat flat) asphalt.

(For the record, I'm a cyclist)

In reply to Crazylegs:

There are many reasons and just a few are:

- Cycling is perceived as a leisure activity, not a mode of transport. There still persists the notion that you can't cycle to work, you only cycle for fun at the weekends, hence the ridiculous notion that you need special clothes to ride a bike etc. I really think that the messaging for active travel needs to change. It's not about "getting fit" and "losing weight", it's just a simple, cheap and efficient way of travelling that has less of an impact on the environment and is healthier for the individual.

- Our road network, especially the urban network, is not up to moving the number of private vehicles that currently exist so is often gridlocked. This seems to be accepted and "a part of life". Cyclists are seen to be bypassing this and people don't like it. Even worse, the addition of cycling infrastructure is seen to be making the motorists situation worse!

- We have been told for years that a car is something to aspire to. People pump a ridiculous amount of money* into their cars, they are their status symbol, the way we measure our place in the world, especially for the young for home home ownership seems like something they will never attain. Having that undermined by a "movement" (the evil cycle lobby**) makes those people easy to other, especially by grifters masquerading as journalists who require outrage to maintain a profile.

- Breaking the law in a car is socially acceptable - speeding, jumping read lights, parking illegally/antisocially is all seen as ok. On my (old) commute (car and bike), I used to see red lights jumped by cars daily, I was repeatedly overtaken, honked and sworn at for driving at the speed limit (20mph on a residential road with a school). I've had my wing mirror smashed off my van and note left on it saying, "This is my route to work, you are blocking it with your car, park on the pavement". The car is so embedded in our national psyche that their is a level of entitlement associated with driving that is hard to erode.

- People don't like change. There are loads of studies out there that show that when changes are proposed to the status quo, the downsides are easy to visualise because it's a change to how you do things now. The benefits are a lot easier to see. This is born out with all the LTNs/filtered street scheme that have been implemented of the last few decades. There is a lot of furore when they go but 6/12 months later the feedback is very positive.

I have hope that attitudes can change. When I look across the channel at Paris it shows that with some visionary leadership*** change can happen remarkably quickly. I could bang this drum for a while longer but need to get back to work!

*IMHO of course. People can spend their money on what they want but the proportion of income people in my work put aside for a lease on a car is frankly, to me, bonkers.

**T-shirts available for members here: https://evilcyclelobby.teemill.com/

**Unfortunately, I have no idea where this will come from within these shores.....

In reply to artif:

They were questions. I'm trying to understand the scenario. 

A Defender is about 2m wide, so if 2 vehicles could "easily pass" then the road must have been about 4m wide. If the kerbside cyclist was 1m out and the other rider was on the central line then, on a straight flat road (for several miles), if it was safe to do so, how come you couldn't pass by overtaking in the lane on the right?

In reply to Crazylegs:

You seem to be missing the point that, I'm a cyclist as well.

The "chance" that I've met some inconsiderate cyclists, is far more than a "chance", they are out there and I've come across quite a few. It's not just inconsiderate cyclists, it's the stupid ones as well, in the last 8 days had to drive around 5 commuter cyclists riding with no lights, in the dark in a very rural area. I think I'm going to buy some cheap sets of lights and give them to these people.

In reply to artif:

Ok, let's explore that a bit further. Please could you illustrate, preferably with examples or statistics, what the typical consequence  and impact are of:

1) Cars hitting cyclists.

2) Cyclists obstructing cars

PS, I do agree that a certain number of people do cycle really badly, but we need to keep things in proportion.

Car driver f*cks up: someone dies.

Cyclist obstructs someone: Gammon's blood pressure increases momentarily.

In reply to Shani:

You obviously don't want to believe that these cyclists were being obstructive pricks. This is just the most recent example of this behaviour.

Defender 1.791m wide, road was at least 4m wide

The nearside cyclists was over (more than) 1m from the kerb, closer to the middle of the lane in fact, the other rider was over the centre of the road. Fortunately I didn't have to follow them for more than a 1/4mile before I turned off and I was in no rush.

In reply to J1234:

Years ago I was cycling in the lanes and there was a horse rider struggling with a skittish horse, so I asked what they wanted  me to do about passing, they suggested making yourself known to avoid startling the horse, so I always call out from a distance and ask if it's OK to pass, seems to be really appreciated, I always get a thank you and a smile. 

In reply to phizz4:

That’s not prejudice though. Prejudice is when you have already made up your mind what kind of person they are because they’re a cyclist.

In reply to artif:

So what if a cyclist does not behave perfectly - thats not a reason to risk killing them, even less a reason to tar all cyclists with the same brush (do you when driving your car consider yourself responsible for the behaviour of drunk drivers?) 

Last week I went out for a ride, I got close-passed by two SUVs (on quiet country roads btw...). I have just spent the last year of my life living a semi-miserable existence to protect fat SUV drivers from Covid, yet it seems my life is not worth even a few seconds of patience from them...

In reply to artif:

That’s the mindset we need to get round. Everyone has just as much right to use the road. If someone is in front, you just have to wait. No one’s journey is more important than another’s. 
 

We have car drivers who think the cyclists are in the way. And by extension we then get car drivers who don’t want to ride bikes because they feel they are ‘holding people up’. It’s a pathetic mindset. 

In reply to artif:

I am trying to understand. What i find odd is cycling around the Peak for over 30 years I've NEVER com across a bad cyclist on the road (a few of them offroad though).

Being centre in the lane is absolutely fine and legal. It's the cyclist over the centre of the road that is the problem here.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I have no statistics to hand, but you seem to be implying, in your examples, that cyclists never do wrong. How about cyclist jumps red light and gets taken out by car, or rides up the inside of a truck on a corner, or riding without lights in the dark, or riding with no brakes, all of which I have seen and done, except being taken out by a car when jumping a red light.

The consequences are pretty obvious. Unfortunately the cyclist will always suffer more physically in these incidents regardless of who is at fault. 

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Unless one has blue flashing lights! One Sunday morning I was heading out early on a ride, quiet roads. As I was getting out of town I was approaching a traffic island and heard an engine approaching quite fast, so I moved out. Then I got the fright of my life as the ambulance siren went off right behind me!! I just about jumped out of my skin! Luckily I was next to a dropped kerb so was able to pop into the pavement straight away to let them past! Lol

In reply to Richard Horn:

I didn't risk killing them, and I don't find it acceptable, and I certainly don't and haven't tarred all cyclists with the same brush, I am one after all. 

I also don't tar all drivers with the same brush, I'm one of them as well.

In reply to Shani:

I've been cycling for well over 40 years and I've certainly come across a few "bad" ones, I was probably one of them in my younger days. Driving and riding all over the country I've not had problems in the Peak district, but other places, I've certainly seen some interesting behaviour.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I think I'd take some issue with the assumption that prejudice against cyclists is very common place, or that it is most definitely better in other European countries.  Of course I can only give my experiences as, I suspect, is all most people can do.

Firstly, I think as a cyclist we are acutely aware of the drivers who are either oblivious or who are aggressive, but fail to register drivers going about their normal business perfectly normally.  On rides I try to make a mental note of what proportion of drivers are actually aggressive towards me, versus those that are actively courteous (eg letting me out of junctions).  On my rides, I would say I'm unlucky if 1% of drivers are actively aggressive and many more than this come into the courteous category.

Secondly, the country I have cycled in with the most aggressive attitude towards cyclists was Belgium.  OK they have a good cycle network, but if you are forced to use roads it seems to be a litany of car horns and close passes.

In reply to GrahamD:

I think it varies a lot in different areas of the country. I'm in Stirling, and although I say I cycle defensively, I suspect it's nothing like how defensively I would need to ride if I was in a big city. Cycling around here is very safe and almost always a pleasure. The few idiots really stand out as idiots because they are unusual. I think in other places that might be different

In reply to GrahamD:

Here's my experience of same. For context, I'm in my late 50s, have been an enthusiastic cyclist since I was 14 and worked as a bike courier in London and Edinburgh for short periods when I was young. I gave up road biking in the UK about 5 years ago and sold my road bike 2 years ago. I also drive a lot.

Off the top of my head, I've done c.250 days cycling in France (with a little in Spain, Italy and Germany) over the past 15 years. In that time I had two incidents where drivers endangered and frightened me unnecessarily, and one of them had UK plates. Conversely, I can't think of a single ride I've done in the UK where I've not had multiples close passes and/or aggression. Aggro with a real risk of injury or death is part and parcel of cycling in the UK. I went mountain biking yesterday and only did about 2km on quiet public roads and had a very close pass which rattled me. 

Regarding the wider context of UK culture, The Generalist and Climbing Pixie have summed that aspect up above.

If I have been holding a car up on narrow roads, I tend to offer a wave of thanks/ understanding as they pass. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

I perceive the UK to have a more rushed culture than a lot of other countries. Cafe's are largely take-away rather than sit-in, people rush their lunch (or eat at their desk) to get back to work quickly, etc. Part of this could be how we are set up as a country (high childcare costs, for example, meaning you need to rush to school on time to pick up your kids - vs. some family members in Berlin whom get free full time nursery for their 16 month old).

I also think there's quite a sense of competition in a lot of aspects of day-to-day life whether it's in a work sense, or whether someone on the tube looks to have a fancier suit on than you.

Relating this back to cyclists, being behind a bike means you're being slowed down in some way and I think people don't take kindly to this. Time seems to be very precious here and isn't to be wasted - so being slightly slowed on a commute really irks people - at my old work, someone taking 25 mins to get in, due to traffic, rather than 20 mins could really alter their mood for the rest of the day.

People are inherently bad at assessing the impact of something as well, in my experience. Most people are terrible at guessing how big a centimetre is, never mind calculating that the 30 seconds they have behind a cyclist to wait for an appropriate overtaking spot will have a negligible impact on their overall journey length. 

I think these reasons combined with not really being taught about cyclists during tests, and many places not having loads of cyclists mean people perceive them to be a much bigger impact on their life (from a travelling perspective) than they actually are, and this breeds resentment. 

People also find it hard to admit their mistakes and find it easy to blame others. I remember one survey of drivers which said something like 98% of drivers are constantly on the look out for cyclists, but a similar percent also said that cyclists just "appear out of nowhere". People like to attribute blame...

In reply to Crazylegs:

Gammon only have a few topics of conversation:

- the football
- the traffic
- how stupid women are
- bloody woke people

Hatred of cyclists manages to traverse at least two of these (and possibly all four), offering a brief interlude of novelty:

"Yeh mate, I was on me way to see the footie and the traffic was mad. Some bloody wokie on a bike holdin everyone up. I made sure to give him a good honk as I went past - shoulda seen him jump! Anyway, the bloody c*nt only went and gave me the bird. Well, I weren't having that. Pulled over, din I, and threatened to wallop the fkn tree hugger into next week. Well, I only got it in the neck after that from Carol. "What d'you do that for? You're out of control!" All that. Told her to shut her stupid gob, obviously. Anyway, Posh drew nil nil i the end - waste of time buying a season ticket..."

In reply to C Witter:

Calling people Gammon is just a form of "Othering" of a group of people, and not very woke. 

In reply to J1234:

😂 I enjoyed that one Bedspring 🤣

 

In reply to Glug:

I've ridden horses on the road, in my youth, and it felt way more risky than cycling - and this was 40 years ago, I don't think I could justify it now. When approaching horses from behind I call out 'bicycle' from a sensible distance and slow down/take the other side of the road if available. I don't have a bell fitted to my bikes. Sometimes call out to pedestrians on the wrong side of the road as well, to avoid startling them. But I will ignore red lights when appropriate, like at silly roadworks. Have been taken to task by cyclists for setting a bad example.

In reply to 65:

... Conversely, I can't think of a single ride I've done in the UK where I've not had multiples close passes and/or aggression. 

I guess it must depend on where you cycle and what you 'bad driving' threshold is. I cycle most days on the roads of Cheshire, Staffordshire and the Peak District and would say that about 1-in-10 rides have a 'swear-and-wish-I-had-a-camera' event and  an aggro event (usually bad driving that I mentally classify as malicious rather than just incompetent) perhaps 3-4 times a year. I don't know if I'm just lucky or more tolerant. Or perhaps I choose my routes to avoid obviously busy roads.

Having said that, I still regard road cycling as more dangerous than climbing.

As for the prejudice issue - I tend to see it as somewhat inevitable (if sad). With any social animal, deviation from the 'norm' is often seen as a threat to the cohesion of the group and won't be tolerated*. The effect is then amplified by the media for whom 'pandering to the masses' is a positive business decision since people generally like to have their existing beliefs reinforced rather than undermined and so 'pandering' sells more papers (or whatever the modern equivalent is).

* One of my current bugbears is the tendency for natural history programme makers to anthropomorphize their subjects (be they chimp, lion or meerkats): "Aren't they clever, they behave just like humans!" In reality it's should be the other way round - we humans are little different from those 'lower' life forms and perhaps we should be saying "Aren't we stupid - we're still behaving like dumb animals!"

In reply to petemeads:

I would only ignore a red light if I calculate it's safer for me to do so. My commute (back when I used to cycle to uni) involved this situation. I have to turn right at a big and busy junction that is a blackspot for oncoming traffic speeding downhill through amber so I have to be super careful when setting off at the end of the cycle. Unfortunately I'm going uphill from stationary so it's really difficult to leave enough time to ensure I'm not going to be taken out by an 'amber gamblers (aka a driver jumping the red) without then holding up traffic coming from the opposite direction. The safest thing to do is to go as soon as traffic going crosswise stops but before my light goes green. I've reported the junction to the council as dangerous and pleaded for a filter light or a traffic light camera but to no avail.

I actually got berated for this a while ago by another cyclist, who told me off as he overtook me on the next hill. On the plus side, I was so furious and wanted to explain my rationale that in my efforts to catch him I got a Strava PB! 

In reply to Wainers44:

I ride a lot and with the exception of people squashing past when they could have easily crossed the centre line and passed me with metres of space, I don't see much aggression or hostility. Some drivers are quite unbelievably thoughtful and courteous around cyclists even! So it is far from all bad.

I'm only just outside of Chesterfield and Sheffield, so two biggish population centres but there are plenty of relatively quiet lanes to ride on, hopefully you can find similar where ever you are.

Of course as you've just bought a road bike the following is completely unhelpful - but I think people in the UK should really consider a gravel bike rather than a pure road bike - it is basically a slightly roughty-toughty road bike with stronger wheels. Mine is almost as fast on road as my road bike, but I ride it along tow paths and the amazing number of former railway lines now gravel bike/walking routes, and down bridleways if I know they're not particularly gnarly (some in the Peak District are!). There is more of all those kinds of routes out there than many might presume and cycling on them means obviously a lot less to worry about than on busy roads. But not everyone finds UK roads to be that terrible anyway. Not perfect - sure - but not terrible either.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I do wonder how often people who say things like that have lived and cycled in other countries? I can say that I lived for about 16 years in Finland, and rode quite a lot there - both commuting from the outer edge to downtown Helsinki and then lots of pleasure rides out into the countryside.

The urban cycling infrastructure keeps bikes and cars separate to quite an extent but then force bikes and walkers into the same small and ill-defined spaces, causing conflict there instead. And when you did ride on roads drivers could be either aggressive or dangerously oblivious to you. Fortunately a low density of traffic outside of the capital region made this OK, and I think southern Finland is a great place to cycle. But from that experience over that long period of time I think that British drivers on average might be better round bikes, it is just there is a lot more of them.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I agree with what others have said re the othering of cyclists and wider UK culture.

I cycled regularly for years and then a combination of terrible driving and a period on betablockers for migraine prevention meant I looked for a different sport/hobby. That was how I started climbing and I favoured days out climbing over cycling for several years. I think it says a lot that climbing trips never gave me the terrible anxiety that cycling does because while I've got zero natural ability and only bimble about on very low grades I do feel like I have much more control (assuming a safe belayer) and also no one has ever yelled abuse or thrown anything at me which is so nice.

When covid hit cycling became necessary for transport, exercise and a safe way of going on holiday (cycle camping) so I picked it up again. There is more aggression than ever. I have recently been on 'advanced cycle training' as I volunteer as a buddy for inexperienced cyclists through the London Cycling Campaign and I have been assured I am doing everything right. Yet over 15 drivers had action taken on them last year from footage provided from my cheap front and rear cameras. The Met insist on viewing the 2 mins before and after the incident to check you weren't cycling like a dick. I only film them in the hope that having some kind of action taken against them will make them less aggressive to the next road user.

In reply to J1234:

If approaching from behind just shout "Hello" when you are some distance away. If rider or horse don't react repeat when you are a bit closer. Horses are generally fine if they get some warning someone is behind them. They don't like being startled by someone who just whizzes past when they weren't aware of someone coming up behind them.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I think it would be great if new drivers were required to pass a cycling proficiency test prior to their driving test, just the same as they have to pass a theory test. Before you get behind the wheel of a 1-ton death-machine, you should absolutely learn the perspective of the most vulnerable road-user. 

I think aggressive driving around cyclists in cities makes journeys take longer for everyone. I'll happily poodle along behind a cyclist but you often see dangerous overtakes followed by brake-slamming further down the road, followed by the cyclist re-overtaking the driver when they're stuck at a junction or light. Everyone ends up angry and no earlier to their destination. 

In reply to PaulJepson:

I am all for that. In the long distant days, the Cycling Proficiency Test was something that many of us took long before we became car drivers. (My brother and I took ours at the age of 12 in 1962.) This test required one to know the entire Highway Code, as in the driving test. This had three benefits: (1) it made one a safer cyclist, (2) it made it easier to pass the driving test because one was by then totally familiar with the highway code, and (3) it made one more aware of special dangers faced by cyclists. Nowadays the roads are much more crowded, so there is far more interaction between cyclists and car drivers and much more potential for accidents. There is probably a strong case for making a Cycling Proficiency Test compulsory for all young cyclists, i.e., long before they get behind the wheel of a car.

In reply to TobyA:

Interesting what you say about gravel bikes.  I'm of the opposite point of view: If the majority of your riding is on road - a road bike is lighter and easier to pedal and at a push is fine for riding occasional gravel tracks.

In reply to PaulJepson:

On that basis we should all learn to ride a horse !

In reply to artif:

You're lucky - I've a 4x4 AND a beemer. I'm basically Beelzebub, Piers Morgan, and Katie Hopkins all rolled into one.

Mind you, combined age of the cars is 52 years - not sure if that makes it better or worse.  However you cut it, though, I'm clearly a bit of a c+nt.

In reply to GrahamD:

I'm sure that's true to some extent but I suspect the difference between a 750 quid gravel and road bike of the same price, or a 1200 quid gravel and 1200 quid road bike, isn't that huge. On my gravel bike - which I ride more on road than on unsurfaced tracks - I'm very happy to have 38 mm tubeless tires and a relatively low psi for every time I hit some unavoidable crack or pothole in the road surface, or to ride through gravel, mulch and general gunk built up in the gutters of the roads particularly in winter. My road bike is a decade old now - so came with 23 mm tires that I later replaced with 25 mms, but I don't think there is clearance for much more. Having the extra air in my gravel bike tires makes for a more comfy road ride too. And I totally accept you can ride a road bike with no great problem on gravel, but I wouldn't want to take my skinny wheeled one down anything rougher than quite smooth fine gravel like you tend to get on converted former railway lines. Most of the farm tracks around my way (NE Derbyshire) are much too rough for it, but I ride them happily on my gravel bike. 

My current Boardman gravel bike is definitely the best bike I've used for commuting (I've averaged between 2000 and 3000 kms commuting for I guess the last 16 years. I've used over that time an old 90s fully rigid 26" wheeled MTB with slick tyres, then a nice 700c "sports hybrid", then a CX bike - faster than the hybrid due to body position, but cable discs not as good they hydraulic discs on the hybrid. Then my current gravel bike that has hydraulic discs and now also tubeless set up. I'm seriously considering whether I need my road bike as well anymore. 

But each to their own! That's just my experience.  

In reply to J1234:

A ring of your bell or a raised voice 'hello' always works for me. Most horses on the road are used to bikes, it's the sudden appearance in the corner of their eye that startles them (or squeaky brakes). Just letting the rider know that you are there. Thanks for asking.

In reply to GrahamD:

Nah, I'm with TobyA on this one. I have my 'sensible' bike (aka gravel, mudguards, choice of tyres) and my 'fun' bike (CAAD12). The fun bike comes out if it's sunny and I'm just going to whizz round for an hour or two on known decent roads. All other times (80%+ of rides) - including when I'd have taken my hardtail MTB - it's the sensible bike. So much more practical, versatile and not really much slower: I did some informal testing when I first got it and on rolling terrain with fat knobbly tyres it was <5% slower than by a light road bike. Yes, if I was racing that would be a lot, but I'm not, so sub-5% is really in the noise. If I'm really fussed about speed/effort, I'll put some GravelKing slicks on and the difference drop down to bu**er-all.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I think that we need to remember that the vast majority of road users are sensible, reasonable, people and not let the 1 in 10 who aren't cause our prejudice get out of hand. Having said that, whether I am riding my bike, my horse or driving the car I assume that everyone else on the road is trying to kill me and progress in as defensive a manner as possible (especially on car journeys into Birmingham).

In reply to C Witter:

As I went down to work today Jeremy Vine was on talking about being woke, it was quite interesting.

I would call you Trotsky, but your too young to get the joke, power to the people wolfie.

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

I've wondered about a UKC top trumps of c*ntitude.

I replaced my BMW with a campervan, which as of last year is Satan's chosen carriage.
Also, I'm a cyclist and Hi-Lux driver, I don't have a telly and don't like football. I do eat meat though so I lose the crucial vegan points. But I'm at least as big a c*nt as you.

In reply to 65: sorry . Veggies / vegan s usually catch it on here , so:  no telly , doesn’t like football etc and veggy is the Lamborghini  countach of UKC   . Top c@nts  . veggy beats meat eater . 
And as for f£&king pescatarians ......

In reply to John Stainforth:

It's not as outdated as you might think. Our entire primary school was required to take the cycling proficiency test in year 5 or 6 (I forget which), so that would be late 90s. You're taking your driving test a decade later and so far removed from that experience that it serves no purpose for making you a better driver though (I'm sure there were benefits of making us better young cyclists). They were also very careful and may have even closed a section of the road next to the school to do it (would be a litigation nightmare having 10 year olds on live roads), so I'm not convinced it would provide the required experience of having an HGV give you a foot of space while some parked-up tw*t flings their door open in front of you without looking. 

The horse commend from GrahamD is not productive. No one is riding horses around busy city roads during commuter hours. 

Most people aren't bad people, and would be horrified if they realised what it is like to be in the cyclists position when they drive how they do. The problem is that a lot of them have never experienced it, so they drive accordingly. I wouldn't have thought many accidents or near misses happen because the driver knew they were doing something dangerous towards the cyclist. Yes, you do always get the bellends who deliberately perform close-passes but I don't think there is much you could do to educate their 2 braincells with all the power in the world. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

You won't get an answer here. Every thread like this is swamped with cyclists, and they attack anyone with a different viewpoint. So those who may be able to answer your question (ie. Dont like cyclists, or interacting with them on the road), will avoid these threads like the plague.

In reply to John Stainforth:

The two abreast thing is misunderstood by the majority of drivers. If the road is too narrow, or there is a blind bend ahead, for a car to give the recommended 1.5 m space when overtaking one bike then riding two abreast is defensive and totally justified. Cyclists are the vulnerable road users and drivers should never forget this. If they overtake a bike on a blind bend - not uncommon - and have to swerve to avoid a car coming the other way, who is going to be hurt? Neither of the drivers, probably.

In reply to scope:

I'v actually found a lot of the comments quite useful.  I tried to present the OP in a way to focus generally on othering and applying the behaviour of a minority across a homogenous group.  Time and time again, those that occasionally ride bicycles are lazily grouped as (insert offensive word here) cyclists.   In this respect, I have found other contributors' experiences useful.

The last thing I wanted (and it doesn't seem to have happened) is for this thread to descend down the same lazy, uninformed trope toilet that usually happens when there is the mention of cyc....

In reply to Crazylegs:

How's this for the sad reality, my wife and I both agree it's not safe for her to cycle on the roads due to the way a small proportion of drivers behave.

In reply to hbeevers:

I'm anxious about my kids cycling to school beause it's not safe for them on the roads due to the way a small proportion of drivers behave. 

I'd love to see these drivers would expect others to drive if it were *their* loved ones on the bike.

In reply to hbeevers:

Why is it safe for you to ride on the road but not her?

In reply to John Stainforth:

Utter rubbish. Practically no one does that. So, when me and my pals go out in a group of six again would you rather we are in long single line or a shorter group of 2x3? 

In reply to hbeevers:

This makes me sad. Perhaps find a supportive group or club who organise regular rides for all abilities. Learning to cycle safely, assertively and defensively is a skill that comes with time. It'll be worth it!

I'm quite lucky that my wife is also a keen bike user. We've been cycling on and off roads with our kids since they were tiny and have been slowly and progressively teaching them road sense and awareness. They're now really confident and I see this as a valuable life skill for them. It's empowering, freedom-giving, healthy, cheap, social, exhilarating, stress-relieving, versatile and environmentally friendly (all in my unshakable opinion).

In reply to Shani:

Our lad, until last year, went to the local primary school 200metres from us.

Mum's on the school run are quite possibly the most terrifying drivers I've seen. A couple of years ago one of the few kids that cycle to school was knocked off their bike by one the mothers. Its so bad that the school has asked all parents and children to walk their bikes on the pavement for the last 100metres. Despite being a dead end road with the school at the end. They regularly have police with speed cameras to ensure the 20mph limit is observed. I've even seen full blown fights over parking. All in a very rural area with a school of 300kids

In reply to Deleated bagger:

The law would rather you and your pals be in a single line on narrow or busy roads.

From the Highway Code:

"Rule 66
You should

• keep both hands on the handlebars except when signalling or changing gear
• keep both feet on the pedals
• never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends
• not ride close behind another vehicle
• not carry anything which will affect your balance or may get tangled up with your wheels or chain
• be considerate of other road users, particularly blind and partially sighted pedestrians. Let them know you are there when necessary, for example, by ringing your bell if you have one. It is recommended that a bell be fitted."

In reply to climbingpixie:

Aggressive and/or leering drivers have been entirely male in our experience. Others experience may vary.

Edit: referring to aggressive drivers, not just driving style

In reply to artif:

Can you clarify...

All mums?

Have you got the point of this thread yet?

In reply to Crazylegs:

It is sad. Cycling assertively helps to a point but is a red rag to a bull with some drivers.

What's more stupid, most problem drivers would probably feel appalled if they saw their behaviour played back. But it's too late then.

In reply to John Stainforth:

We are considerate and avoid all of the above. How is any of that relevent to legally riding two a breast at points were it is acceptable and safe. As a driver I'm well aware of the dangers cars pose to pedestrians and cyclists. I'm not sure you are.

In reply to Crazylegs:

Where did I say ALL mums?

The thread is about cyclists and drivers, both sides blame each other for poor behaviour. I sit in both camps and see both sides of the story, neither are perfect, getting both sides admit their failings will hopefully make a better place for all. 

In reply to John Stainforth:

If you promise to make all motorists abide by Rules 162-169, I'll get all cyclists to stick to Rule 66.   Probably not a fair trade though as you'll have to take responsibility for deaths and I'll only have to apologise for a minor loss of punctuality.

In reply to artif:

That's awful! Rather than stopping the kids riding the last bit, why don't they stop the cars from driving the last bit?! Enforce a no parking zone within 500m of the school or something like that!

In reply to artif:

My point is that you are grouping mums as bad drivers. I suspect what you mean is some people are bad drivers.  Being a mum doesn't make someone a bad driver. I suspect a minority of dads, grandparents, carers, teachers etc. are bad drivers. 

In reply to hbeevers:

Yes most aggressive and dangerous behaviour comes from men but I didn't think the sex of the cyclist made a difference. I'm sure women get more abuse and harassment but the only studies I've seen that suggest women are in more danger point more to factors such as a lack of confidence in road positioning, i.e. hugging the gutter or going up the inside at junctions. I might be wrong though, the stuff I've seen is a bit out of date. I guess, as a woman who cycles, I'm just bemused at the idea that it might be safe enough for my other half to hop on his bike but not for me.

N.B. I'm not diminishing the awfulness of being subjected to abuse and harassment and I can see that in itself being a reason women don't cycle

In reply to Crazylegs:

Don’t even need to read the thread to know it’ll be  full of nastiness. Like everything else - massively divisive. 

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

It's surprisingly good natured generally and some good points made.

In reply to Marek:

Hm, very happy to hear that. I currently ride a road hybrid, basically a Tiagra road bike with flat bars and 26mm 700c tyres. I abuse the absolute hell out of it, on road, off road, gravel tracks, I've even been stupid enough to take it down stuff I'd much rather have had a hard tail for. As such, I think it really should be replaced with a gravel bike but I kept thinking it might be harder to ride on the road.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I agree. I wasn't surprised neighbours 12 year old rides his new bike to a friends house, but assumed they cycled the rest of the way to school, turns out he leaves his bike in the garage and they walk the rest of the way to school because of the traffic. Even worse another friends daughter isn't allowed to leave her bike on the school site because she lives more than three miles away. It's deemed too dangerous and she is expected to use the free school bus.

In reply to climbingpixie:

Ah, didn't say it was safe for me either but I still do. Gender just seems to be another aspect of "problem" interactions.

I don't agree with it certainly and wish it weren't the case. If you're happy to cycle alone then more power to you and if you've not had the same experience then I think that's great and perhaps we've just been unlucky.

In reply to John Stainforth:

The Highway Code is just that -- a code. And one published in 1931! It is legal to ride two abreast and many pro-cycling groups think it is actually safer to do so on modern roads. There is a also current campaign to update the code to erase confusion. 

As with others, from personal experience, 3x2 rather than 1x6 feels much safer. Perhaps if more car drivers enacted Rule 66.6 "be considerate of other road users" and saw the issue from a cyclist's perspective they would understand why. Conversely, cyclist's should do the same. No love lost from me for groups of 12-14+ riders.   

In reply to Martin Wood:

But we've seen that,through innumerable Covid threads, there are always those for whom sensible guidelines don't seem to be prescriptive enough.

In reply to Martin Wood:

Not really. Its a mix of information, advice and laws hence the mix of "must" vs "should".

Rule 66 is a "should" though.

Aren't motor vehicles supposed to overtake cyclists with the full width of the lane anyway? Especially on rural roads (where club riders are more likely to be)? The riding 2 abreast shouldn't really matter if you're giving enough room. If there are cars coming in the opposite direction and it isn't safe to overtake then you can bloody wait.  

In reply to Crazylegs:

My probably worthless pop psychology theory for this, is that people naturally dislike having to look up to others (see also: horse riders, SUV drivers) as it's still perceived as an act of subservience.

The average cyclist's head being considerably higher than the average car driver's, contributes to a feeling of inferiority and the negativity and prejudice follow. I'm half joking, but I wonder if it might be a contributing factor.

In reply to mondite:

I stand corrected. Thanks. Must admit I've not opened it since 1984!

In reply to Martin Wood:

More properly, it’s a guide to applying the laws and conventions. 

In reply to PaulJepson:

It would also be an improvement if people were to ride a moped/scooter/motorcycle for a period before being allowed behind the wheel of a car. When people were generally less affluent, most people started off by cycling, then moved on to motorised two wheels, before graduating to four wheels. This meant they appreciated the vulnerability of other road users, and indeed grew up with the idea that a collision meant damage to themselves as much (if not more than) to their vehicle. As society has become more affluent, and the idea that car driving is somehow a "right" has become prevalent, I have noticed far more "questionable" (and indeed sometimes downright dangerous) driving from those on four wheels.

It should also be noted that cars nowadays have so many safety features that it seems to be pretty difficult to get hurt once sat in your metal box. In the past - without seat belts, air bags and crumple zones - a collision meant potential injury to the driver. A sense of complete immunity to being hurt (when in a modern car) cannot do anything but make drivers less careful compared to being in a vehicle of yesteryear.

In reply to GrahamD:

Assuming the road is in good nick. Too many roads have potholes and gaping cracks where two pieces of tarmac join. In this case stronger wheels are required - or else a supply of new wheels.

In reply to artif:

Doesn't surprise me. I have been working for the last month, and until the schools went back it was a pleasure to drive. The first day the schools returned it was terrible; Cars (well mainly Chelsea Tractors) partly on the wrong side of the road, cars parking on the pavement, cars forcing their way through pedestrians at crossings just to come to a halt 30 yards later at a queue for lights or similar, and chronic tailgating.

I hear parents saying that they only drive their children to school because it's so dangerous with traffic nowadays - well it is, but only because of the traffic caused by parents driving their children to school.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I don't believe ALL mums are bad drivers.

Strangely I also don't believe that all 4x4, BMW or Audi drivers are bad drivers either.

However due to the terrible driving of an increased number of mums, 4x4's, BMW's and Audis relative to other road users, my default safety position is to treat ALL of the above as maniacs out to kill me - this keeps me safer than the alternative.

In reply to Crazylegs:

I recon is a recent phenomenon, I cycled to work between 1994 and 2011 without really have any one shout at me. Once actually one driver really lost it with me for not cycling on the cycle lane. The last 5 years this has really got  bad. This leads me to suspect that most of the hate comes because drivers a loosing space and cyclists are gaining it. In a congested country that is beyond the pale. And when cyclists don't use the cycleways because they are all crap and the road is faster that just makes the angry driver more enraged.

In reply to Crazylegs:

Interesting thread and good to see not descended into mud slinging like lots of other posts on ukc. 

My thoughts as a long time cycle commuter on surrey roads is that car drivers are impatient, but crucially in my experience, are generally ignorant about cyclists - what is a safe distance to pass them, speeds whilst passing, racing past in inappropriate locations like blind bends, honking and shouting etc. I think they dont realise how exposed cyclists are and feel. I've had close passes, been shouted at, aimed at, threatened. It's not nice.

If the boot was on the other foot, it would change attitudes. If the driver in the big 4x4 suddenly saw their son/daughter on a bike and me driving a big 4x4 at them they would be outraged. Until people in cars see people on bikes as people, they wont change. 

In reply to Pb-climb-up:

Every single car driver ?

In reply to Thread : I think it very sad that  close passes are almost accepted as part and parcel of cycling in the uk , I tend to shout a short stream of abuse ( one of the few acceptable uses of the c word ) and then shrug and let it go , because if I didn’t that would be a ridiculous number of rides ruined  by the wrong emotion . I haven’t counted but as I said upthread I live rurally and if I m careful in route choice I can often hardly see a car but still 3/10 ( total guess ) rides have at least 1 close pass . I did google the number of cyclists killed each year in the uk and it was a ridiculous number  .  

In reply to mike123:

I now try to be conscientious about giving a nod or wave to cars that obviously have avoided killing me, to balance out the stream of invective at those that don't bother. Helps balance out the rage that, as you say, otherwise just builds up and spoils the day 

In reply to mike123:

If I think about my own "career" of cycling on roads and especially cycle commuting, I actually think my own attitude towards it has had a lot to do with my auto-reaction emotion to crappy driving.

I think I started off fairly timid and naive, hugging the kerb, riding over grids, being cautious through junctions.  I felt I had to adopt the "I'm invisible" pretence and so it was always quite stressful.

In about 2008, overnight I became a daily cycle commuter on an A-road with advisory cycle lanes (painted dashes) into the city.  Lots of side roads, buses, huge junctions and standing traffic. Gradually, the elbows came out and I became quite militant, "owning" my space and woe betide any driver who dangerously infringed the cycle lane, turned across or pulled out in front of me.  Shouting, arm waving, banging on car doors, bonnets, mirrors etc.  It was all a bit stressful.

After a couple of years of that and after picking a couple of verbal battles that I'm quite glad didn't escalate any further, something clicked and I just decided to chill out a bit.  Instead of trying to make a point that someone was doing something wrong, I started using the sixth sense for idiotic beahvaiour ahead that I seemed to have developed and started to avoid trouble in the first place.  It all became a lot more enjoyable and the number of incidents I felt I was subjected to dropped signficantly... as i just slowed down a little and let them go on ahead of me. 

In reply to Crazylegs:

This approach really works with driving too. I try and be zen now when driving and it just makes everything a lot nicer. It doesn't take me noticeably longer to get anywhere but instead of raging at anyone doing something stupid, I just let it wash over me. 

With cycling you do sometimes need to be aggressive though. British roads quite often have things like traffic islands next to sharp turns that are designed to stop cars going too quickly and taking a wider berth round the corner but often act as a 'murder hole' for cyclists. There were a couple of these such corners on my old commute and I had no qualms about sitting in the middle of the road while I approached them so no one would try and overtake through the bottleneck.  

In reply to 65:

There's already one, it's called the "Top 10 posters".  [ba dum bum tishh]

Well maybe.  Did I mention that I like bouldering,  and that I'm vegetarian?