UKH

Just wondering if anyone has any first hand experiences of what training did and didn't work for them with regards to training for high altitude. Did you find HIIT effective? Or found it better to do longer and lower intensity workouts?

Many thanks

In reply to GHawksworth:

Get a copy of Steve House's book 'Training For The New Alpinism' - lots of very useful info on high altitude stuff & more...

In reply to GHawksworth:

Being at altitude is like being drunk, therefore drinking heavily prepares the brain for being at altitude

A training (?) tip from the 1970s variously attributed to Al Rouse, Alex Macintyre (& no doubt others )

In reply to Doug:

Nonsense, it is well known that this invaluable advice came from that great climber (in fact great artist, sculptor, scientist, philosopher, source of profound aphorisms), Anon.

Given Anon's vast contributions to climbing (and to so many other fields), it is remarkable how little we know about him (or her, we don't even know that).

In reply to GHawksworth:

Regardless of altitude, your training should match your goals - are you really going up a mountian to do 5/10 minute high intensity bursts? Chances are you'll be mostly doing long, slow days - so your training should (mostly) reflect this. High intensity stuff is useful to push up your maximum abilities, but this should only be a small part of your training load.

In reply to GHawksworth:

One thing I remember is that however fit you are when you arrive, pace yourself carefully in the first part of the trip.

In reply to GHawksworth:

Mark Twight's book has great chapters on this subject.

In reply to 99ster:

I have been eyeing that up! I think its one for the christmas list!

In reply to ianstevens:

As I understand it, at altitude your body needs to work harder therefore a higher intensity. I have been recommended to do HIIT but I wanted to know about personal experiences. Thinking if anyone on here has been at 4000+m and thinking "god i wish i trained 'x' more instead of training 'y'" or "jeepers that routine worked really well for me! I'm skipping about up here".

I will obviously be looking at things like "training for new alpinism" and take advice from pro's. But as I don't know many people who have spent consecutive days above 4000m, I'd like to hear other peoples experiences of what worked.

In reply to GHawksworth:

I'm note sure it counts as training for high altitude because acclimatisation to altitude requires, well, altitude. Before any alpine trip ( many have included several consecutive days going above 4,000 metres ) or Himalayan trip I've gone for as many consecutive long mountain days linking easy rock routes and scrambles wearing a pack as I can. Pre Himalayas I've tried to spend time in the alps first. Living in Devon the other strategy is long runs and scrambles on Dartmoor and also long coastal path runs - lots of up and down. I guess long distance cycling may help to a degree.
I have never found short or intensive running bursts, or other similar activity, help me. I tried this in the past and found I was great for the first 2-4 hours on the hill and then things felt tough. So what does work for me is replicating as close as possible a long mountain day.
Have fun

In reply to Mark Haward:

Brill! have you ever encountered altitude sickness? My plan for the next year is alps in June/July and Annapurna trail in September/October so from what you said that seems to be the right way around

In reply to GHawksworth:

As has already been pointed out you should get 'training for the new alpinism'. As you are doing lots of long duration exercise your training will have to reflect this and also your own personal weaknesses in relation to where you want to be. For example if you already can run 3hr marathons your cardio may be excellent but you may struggle with a heavy bag. You may also simply fall over at 7hrs of slower running, which is of more similar in intensity to alpine climbing.

In reply to GHawksworth:
To a degree, but this isn't really relevant to mountaineering as you may think - HIIT will improve your maximum strength/speed, but the only way to improve your stamina (i.e. operating at c. 60% of your maximum for many hours) is by going on long runs and walking up hills with a heavy bag on. Or getting in big (7/800m+) days of easier climbing. I've never gone out in the mountains* and wished that I'd done more pull ups, push ups or burpees, but always that I wished I had done more running and more long days out with a bag on. That's what has worked for me.

I'm not saying don't do HIIT activities, as they do improve your max strength - I do them myself. The ratio is important, the bulk of your training (I am for ~60-70%) should be low to medium effort stamina work

*To clarify, I'm referring to the Alps here, not the hills we have in the UK.

In reply to GHawksworth:

Just train to be able to keep going all day. The main message in training for the new alpinism is that the bigger your base fitness is the better. Do a lot of long distance, low intensity running or walking, especially uphill (2hrs +). A good guide for intensity is that you should be able to maintain conversation without gasping for breath. This sort of training increases your ability to metabolise fat so you don't burn precious carb calories on easy ground. MAybe supplement this with a tiny bit of high intensity but if you're not already really well trained this shouldnt make up more than 15/20% of your total training. There are no shortcuts. The only way to get good at moving for a long time is to spend a long time moving. As for altitude, you just need to acclimatise well. If you're fit the rest will follow

In reply to GHawksworth:

Walking up hills with water containers which you empty at the top is a good way of training with weight without wrecking your knees on the way down.

In reply to GHawksworth:


I play ice hockey (which is essentially 'HIIT-as-sport'), and in my first season in the Alps I found that I could sprint up moderate snow slopes for 60 seconds and pause for a rest, but plodding up at a constant pace was really quite difficult. I'd therefore say that HIIT is absolutely not the sort of things you want to base most of your training around!

In reply to GHawksworth:

Mostly at 4000+m when I think "god,....." I then can't remember what I'd started to think.

Less absurdly, I think there's good evidence that interval training would improve your vo2max which would improve your threshold exercise rate and therefore improve your steady-state performance. For higher grades, never been there myself but I guess you'd want to improve your explosive short term power output so would HIIT do that?

In reply to GHawksworth:

Who recommended HIIT? It's basically the complete opposite of what you want to be doing. Training should be specific, and you can't get much less specific training than HIIT for what is essentially a low intensity, long duration activity.

That said, it can certainly form part of a training plan, but the bulk of your training should be composed of aerobic activity at low heart rates.

Get yourself a copy of Training for the new Alpinism, or one of the training plans House and Johnson put together for Jagged Globe for just this sort of thing.*

*Edit - these are quite pricey, IMHO the book contains more than enough information to construct your own training plan, though obviously this requires more effort on your part.

https://home.trainingpeaks.com/products/trainingplans/lookupname.aspx?looku...

In reply to Doug:



I suppose if your so drunk and your body is virtually incapable of walking. Shear will power alone giving you the drive to put one foot in front of the other to get you home. It makes sense!

In reply to colinakmc:

For the already highly trained, yes, but for the un- to mid- trained person by far the most effective way of increasing all day endurance is by raising the rate at which you metabolise fat (aerobic excercise) so that when you arrive at the crux of your route you can blast it with a full glycogen store (anaerobic exercise). This is done by spending a lot of time moving just below your anaerobic threshold. This threshold can be foubd by monitoring heart rate, or more simply, the point at which you stop breathing easily.

I'm just spouting TFTNA here. Buy the book, it's worth it

In reply to GHawksworth:

I'm not sure how long acclimatisation stays in the physical sense - thinking of your trip to the alps and then Himalaya - but the mental acclimatisation ( experience, knowledge and skills ) for operating at altitude should help. It does effect different people in different ways.
Yes, I've had mild altitude sickness. In the alps some years ago, for me, it has usually meant being breathless during exercise when I wouldn't expect to be, mild headache and a little nausea. These days I only really get the breathlessness for the first couple of days at 4,000m because I acclimatise much more sensibly.
In the Himalayas everyone can expect similar symptoms but the headache and nausea will usually be stronger. So remember to eat and drink - even when you don't feel like it - and monitor yourself and others carefully. Know what signs and symptoms to look for. Know when to lose height. Bear in mind some people will hide or ignore their symptoms.
Find the snacks and drinks you can stomach even when slightly nauseous. Find the headache tablets that work for you. Personally I wouldn't use other 'acclimatisation drugs'.

Have fun

In reply to Mark Haward:

Hi, I went on a trip to the Himalayas 2 years ago having done no mountaineering, hill walking or big days out hill walking for 10years. To train for the trip I did masses of running on hills so built up a high base level for the long slogging up glaciers and easy snow slope. Added in cycling either by myself and with a group on the flat and hills - took my turn at the front to share the load. Also went to the climbing wall and did reps with a rucksack on an auto belayer and aimed to climb X routes or Y metres in an evening. Also when we were on the trip was very motivated to do the climbing.

So establish a high base level to cope with the slogging and easy climbing and an ability to do some cardio work for the steep and strenuous and be prepared to accept the hard work and discomfort. Enjoy yourself is also important

In reply to GHawksworth:

You might find the free downloadable booklet at www.medex.org.uk useful for advice on staying healthy at altitude.
David Hillebrandt

In reply to GHawksworth:

The more and more I read and see, the more I tend to think that HIIT is what high altitude training should comprise of. But then nobody really knows anything more than they did 20 years about altitude.

Ensuite- Acclimatization is the place to get everything right rather than training I believe. And that differs from person to person so there is really no way to know other than setting out conservatively and slowly pushing the boundaries in proceeding trips to altitude.

If you watch the Unmasked ascent of Everest, Messner talks with great understanding about everything that any specialist knows today. But it is said in a straightforward and uncompromising way that is easy to digest and is not filled with the bullshit hypothesis of today.

Only been to 4800m. But Come from a pro cycling and Military background, so have an especially good handle on physical performance and I still don't know. Get fit, get acclimated. Not much else anyone can suggest I wouldn't have thought. Have fun