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> Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary leader who built a communist state on the doorstep of the United States and for five decades defied US efforts to topple him, He was 90.
> Castro took power in 1959 after a communist revolution. He governed the country as Prime Minister and later President up until 2006 when he temporarily ceded power to his brother Raul after undergoing intestinal surgery. The handover of power became official in 2008. At the time he was the world's third longest-serving head of state, after Britain's Queen Elizabeth and the King of Thailand.
> In his last years, Castro occasionally appeared in public and in videos and pictures usually meeting with guests. He wrote hundreds of columns for the official media. Stooped and walking with difficulty, Castro was seen in public twice in 2012 and twice in 2013. He was seen in public on January 8, 2014, at the opening of a cultural centre, though photos of visiting dignitaries at the Castro home appeared after that.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/former-cuban-leader-fidel-castro-dead-20161126-...
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In reply to Big Ger:
The last of the Cold War dinosaurs and right in America's back yard. He gave the US backed Bay of Pigs invasion a bloody nose and a lot of red faces in Washington.
I shall never forget those terrifying days of the Missile Crisis when the World's two super powers squared up to each other and the World held it's breath.
He mellowed in older life. Yes he was a tyrant in the early days, and kept Cuba in the 1950s but his regime was more honorable than that of Batista, and his brand of Communism really was for the People.
The last of the Cold War dinosaurs and right in America's back yard. He gave the US backed Bay of Pigs invasion a bloody nose and a lot of red faces in Washington.
I shall never forget those terrifying days of the Missile Crisis when the World's two super powers squared up to each other and the World held it's breath.
He mellowed in older life. Yes he was a tyrant in the early days, and kept Cuba in the 1950s but his regime was more honorable than that of Batista, and his brand of Communism really was for the People.
Post edited at 07:07
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In reply to Trangia:
I agree - my memory stretches back to terrified days in primary school, thinking for a few days that we were all going to die. Seemed much easier to manage news in those days too, so easier to frighten people maybe.
I agree - my memory stretches back to terrified days in primary school, thinking for a few days that we were all going to die. Seemed much easier to manage news in those days too, so easier to frighten people maybe.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Apparently the CIA had a plan to give him a powder that would make his beard fall out. This, they surmised, would stop him being taken seriously.
Apparently the CIA had a plan to give him a powder that would make his beard fall out. This, they surmised, would stop him being taken seriously.
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In reply to Big Ger: really mixed feelings. Always worth remembering what was before Castro, but it's no excuse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista
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In reply to Trangia:
One the last of the giants, and one of the last of The West's old bogeymen.
I remember a great quote from when the Manic Street Preachers played in Cuba and had an audience with him. They cautioned the old man, "The music will be very loud."
He replied, "Will it be louder than war?"
rip, in small letters.
One the last of the giants, and one of the last of The West's old bogeymen.
I remember a great quote from when the Manic Street Preachers played in Cuba and had an audience with him. They cautioned the old man, "The music will be very loud."
He replied, "Will it be louder than war?"
rip, in small letters.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Though I am an atheist I wish him to be fried in the same hell he and his comrades arranged for millions
Though I am an atheist I wish him to be fried in the same hell he and his comrades arranged for millions
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In reply to pavelk:
From your name I'm guessing you might have had some more experience of living under a communist regime than most of us on UKC?
From your name I'm guessing you might have had some more experience of living under a communist regime than most of us on UKC?
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In reply to pavelk:
Ill informed nonsense. He had the best interests of the Cuban people at heart. If the USA hadn't viciously embargoed the country for decades in retribution for having their corrupt gangsters thrown out, the people would have been a lot better off. In spite of this the Cuban health service puts most countries to shame.
> Though I am an atheist I wish him to be fried in the same hell he and his comrades arranged for millions
Ill informed nonsense. He had the best interests of the Cuban people at heart. If the USA hadn't viciously embargoed the country for decades in retribution for having their corrupt gangsters thrown out, the people would have been a lot better off. In spite of this the Cuban health service puts most countries to shame.
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In reply to Big Ger: that's too simplistic too . He did a lot of good , but he did a lot of bad too.
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In reply to TobyA:
Yes, Czechoslovakia, by far not the worst of communist dictatorship but still bad enough
Yes, Czechoslovakia, by far not the worst of communist dictatorship but still bad enough
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In reply to Big Ger:
Another big name added to the growing list of famous people who have passed in 2016. ( no matter what you think of them)
Another big name added to the growing list of famous people who have passed in 2016. ( no matter what you think of them)
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In reply to pavelk:
I think you are about as wrong as you can be, and you should inform yourself a bit more.
Castro was no saint, and bad things were done under his watch. Some hundreds were executed for war crimes after due process. But they were never institutionalised in the way that, say, the secret police were in East Germany (can anyone NAME the Cuban secret police? Thought not); and no-one ever accused him of retreating to palaces like Tito or Ceaușescu . Instead he retained autonomy against the behemoth 90 miles north, established healthcare and education systems that they could sorely learn from, and created a literate and egalitarian society which even in this day and age seems relatively at ease with itself.
I think you are about as wrong as you can be, and you should inform yourself a bit more.
Castro was no saint, and bad things were done under his watch. Some hundreds were executed for war crimes after due process. But they were never institutionalised in the way that, say, the secret police were in East Germany (can anyone NAME the Cuban secret police? Thought not); and no-one ever accused him of retreating to palaces like Tito or Ceaușescu . Instead he retained autonomy against the behemoth 90 miles north, established healthcare and education systems that they could sorely learn from, and created a literate and egalitarian society which even in this day and age seems relatively at ease with itself.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
...and because of that it was necessarily to forbid people to travel, to cancel free elections, to export revolution, to arrest tens of thousands of people, to assassinate several thousand and to install Russian nuclear missiles... They told us the same crap in communist Czechoslovakia all the time.
And Mr Fidel the - great fighter for independence - was the first one who praised Russian for invasion in 1968.
I will not miss him and millions of Cubans will not as well.
...and because of that it was necessarily to forbid people to travel, to cancel free elections, to export revolution, to arrest tens of thousands of people, to assassinate several thousand and to install Russian nuclear missiles... They told us the same crap in communist Czechoslovakia all the time.
And Mr Fidel the - great fighter for independence - was the first one who praised Russian for invasion in 1968.
I will not miss him and millions of Cubans will not as well.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
can anyone NAME the Cuban secret police? Thought not
Of course I can't, they were secret!
can anyone NAME the Cuban secret police? Thought not
Of course I can't, they were secret!
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I've never been to Cuba but have listened to a lot of good quality journalism from there over the years - I'm not if that's the impression I've got. Not Venezuelan levels of social conflict, but really at ease with itself?
> and created a literate and egalitarian society which even in this day and age seems relatively at ease with itself.
I've never been to Cuba but have listened to a lot of good quality journalism from there over the years - I'm not if that's the impression I've got. Not Venezuelan levels of social conflict, but really at ease with itself?
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In reply to pavelk:
I've got a number of Russian friends who grew up in the Soviet Union, and they likewise have shall we say, a nuanced view of communism.
I've got a number of Russian friends who grew up in the Soviet Union, and they likewise have shall we say, a nuanced view of communism.
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In reply to Gone for good:
you have a way of painting it black
> And there's me thinking 'Wild horses' wouldn't drag him away!
you have a way of painting it black
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In reply to Big Ger:
Comrade Corbyn chips in;
Fidel Castro, who has died aged 90, was a "huge figure in our lives", Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said. Mr Corbyn praised the former Cuban president's revolutionary "heroism", his presence on the world stage and Cuba's health and education systems. Mr Corbyn, a long-time supporter of the Cuba Solidarity Campaign - which campaigns against the blockade on, and foreign intervention in, Cuba - described Mr Castro as a "huge figure of modern history, national independence and 20th Century socialism".
He said: "From building a world-class health and education system, to Cuba's record of international solidarity abroad, Castro's achievements were many. "For all his flaws, Castro's support for Angola played a crucial role in bringing an end to apartheid in South Africa and he will be remembered both as an internationalist and a champion of social justice." He acknowledged "there were problems and there are problems of excesses by all regimes" but "we have to look at the thing in its totality" and Mr Castro had "seen off a lot of US presidents".
Comrade Corbyn chips in;
Fidel Castro, who has died aged 90, was a "huge figure in our lives", Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said. Mr Corbyn praised the former Cuban president's revolutionary "heroism", his presence on the world stage and Cuba's health and education systems. Mr Corbyn, a long-time supporter of the Cuba Solidarity Campaign - which campaigns against the blockade on, and foreign intervention in, Cuba - described Mr Castro as a "huge figure of modern history, national independence and 20th Century socialism".
He said: "From building a world-class health and education system, to Cuba's record of international solidarity abroad, Castro's achievements were many. "For all his flaws, Castro's support for Angola played a crucial role in bringing an end to apartheid in South Africa and he will be remembered both as an internationalist and a champion of social justice." He acknowledged "there were problems and there are problems of excesses by all regimes" but "we have to look at the thing in its totality" and Mr Castro had "seen off a lot of US presidents".
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In reply to TobyA:
It´ s the same here in Czech. (Unreformed) Communist party still receives more than 10% in elections.
It´ s the same here in Czech. (Unreformed) Communist party still receives more than 10% in elections.
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In reply to pavelk:
How can you say that Pavel, when comrade Corbyn has said that he was a "massive figure in all our lives"?
However much the Tories are paying this elderly stupid tramp with a rigid, dogmatic mindset that hasn't changed in 40 years, it is not enough. But you might think it would enable him to buy some new clothes.
> And Mr Fidel the - great fighter for independence - was the first one who praised Russian for invasion in 1968.
> I will not miss him and millions of Cubans will not as well.
How can you say that Pavel, when comrade Corbyn has said that he was a "massive figure in all our lives"?
However much the Tories are paying this elderly stupid tramp with a rigid, dogmatic mindset that hasn't changed in 40 years, it is not enough. But you might think it would enable him to buy some new clothes.
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In reply to pavelk:
Have you been to cuba? Didnt think so!
You would be surprised how well the country works there is alot of happiness there and the majority of people love there country with such a passion. It is hard to invisage the pace of life no one goes hungry no one is homeless. Every one is cared for from the very young with great education to the old and infirm who are looked after by a fantastic health care system. Maybe you and many others like you dont realise that every large humanitarian crisis that arises there is a huge amount of cuban docters sent. in the ebola epidemic over 165 medical experts were sent free of charge mmm how many did the us send? castro believed in a fair society for all and that wasnt just his own country. he wished to help others . The only problems with material goods is due to us led imbargos which also stops other countries trading with cuba. It should be taken into account the majority of people who left cuba after the revolution were the wealthy families and land owners. these families to this day are bitter about what they have lost.
if it was upto me I would have all the aristocrats and royals in this country have there land taken and given to the state. but hey im a socialist!
Have you been to cuba? Didnt think so!
You would be surprised how well the country works there is alot of happiness there and the majority of people love there country with such a passion. It is hard to invisage the pace of life no one goes hungry no one is homeless. Every one is cared for from the very young with great education to the old and infirm who are looked after by a fantastic health care system. Maybe you and many others like you dont realise that every large humanitarian crisis that arises there is a huge amount of cuban docters sent. in the ebola epidemic over 165 medical experts were sent free of charge mmm how many did the us send? castro believed in a fair society for all and that wasnt just his own country. he wished to help others . The only problems with material goods is due to us led imbargos which also stops other countries trading with cuba. It should be taken into account the majority of people who left cuba after the revolution were the wealthy families and land owners. these families to this day are bitter about what they have lost.
if it was upto me I would have all the aristocrats and royals in this country have there land taken and given to the state. but hey im a socialist!
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In reply to sammy5000:
Do you really see it in such black and white terms? What about the detention, beatings and even killings of regime opponents? Or the unwillingness to let Cubans have access to the internet and media from elsewhere?
I'm as surprised how polarised views are.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/26/fidel-castro-legacy?CMP=fb_gu
Do you really see it in such black and white terms? What about the detention, beatings and even killings of regime opponents? Or the unwillingness to let Cubans have access to the internet and media from elsewhere?
I'm as surprised how polarised views are.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/26/fidel-castro-legacy?CMP=fb_gu
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In reply to sammy5000:
Its almost as if someone has been executing some unhappy people and driving others to flee...
> You would be surprised how well the country works there is alot of happiness there and the majority of people love there country with such a passion
Its almost as if someone has been executing some unhappy people and driving others to flee...
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In reply to sammy5000:
"Since the start of the outbreak, the United States has sent more than 3,000 DOD, CDC, USAID, and other U.S. health officials to Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Guinea to assist with response efforts, as part of a 10,000-person U.S.-backed civilian response. With their help, the U.S. government has:
Constructed 15 Ebola treatment units in the region
Provided more than 400 metric tons of personal protective equipment and other medical and relief supplies
Operated more than 190 burial teams in the region
Conducted aggressive contact tracing to identify chains of transmission
Trained health care workers and conducted community outreach
Worked with international partners to identify travelers who may have Ebola before they leave the region"
<white house press release during the outbreak>
> Maybe you and many others like you dont realise that every large humanitarian crisis that arises there is a huge >amount of cuban docters sent. in the ebola epidemic over 165 medical experts were sent free of charge mmm how >many did the us send?
"Since the start of the outbreak, the United States has sent more than 3,000 DOD, CDC, USAID, and other U.S. health officials to Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Guinea to assist with response efforts, as part of a 10,000-person U.S.-backed civilian response. With their help, the U.S. government has:
Constructed 15 Ebola treatment units in the region
Provided more than 400 metric tons of personal protective equipment and other medical and relief supplies
Operated more than 190 burial teams in the region
Conducted aggressive contact tracing to identify chains of transmission
Trained health care workers and conducted community outreach
Worked with international partners to identify travelers who may have Ebola before they leave the region"
<white house press release during the outbreak>
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In reply to sammy5000:
When a regime prevents it's citizens travelling, has no internal opposition, has the same leader in power for decades who passes that power to a family member without apparent process I find it hard to be convinced that is as benign as you depict.
I have not lived as a cuban citizen or met one outside of Cuba so cannot speak from personal or (definitively) freely given second hand experience, but such a restrictive regime looks rather less than socialist.
When a regime prevents it's citizens travelling, has no internal opposition, has the same leader in power for decades who passes that power to a family member without apparent process I find it hard to be convinced that is as benign as you depict.
I have not lived as a cuban citizen or met one outside of Cuba so cannot speak from personal or (definitively) freely given second hand experience, but such a restrictive regime looks rather less than socialist.
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In reply to sammy5000:
I remember a former girlfriend coming back from a visit to Cuba in the 1980s and being ecstatic about their health system (she worked as a physio in the NHS). So obviously Castro got some things right. However - correct me if I'm wrong - didn't the lack of general human rights/arbitrary imprisonment with no rights/torture of the Batista regime continue (increase?) And I gather that latterly Castro apologised for the persecution of gay people over many decades.
Mick
> Every one is cared for...
I remember a former girlfriend coming back from a visit to Cuba in the 1980s and being ecstatic about their health system (she worked as a physio in the NHS). So obviously Castro got some things right. However - correct me if I'm wrong - didn't the lack of general human rights/arbitrary imprisonment with no rights/torture of the Batista regime continue (increase?) And I gather that latterly Castro apologised for the persecution of gay people over many decades.
Mick
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In reply to TobyA:
Its a difficult issue and I think many sources are still tainted by ideological and political bias making it hard for anyone to understand.
I am not sure its clear what path he would have taken if the USA government hadnt decided he was public enemy number 1 and if the CIA hadnt made a hobby of trying to kill him. Something which I think would make the most mellow person possibly a tad repressive.
> Do you really see it in such black and white terms?
Its a difficult issue and I think many sources are still tainted by ideological and political bias making it hard for anyone to understand.
I am not sure its clear what path he would have taken if the USA government hadnt decided he was public enemy number 1 and if the CIA hadnt made a hobby of trying to kill him. Something which I think would make the most mellow person possibly a tad repressive.
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In reply to sammy5000:
You mean, kinda like the opposite to Cuba where the "royal family" took all the land and gave it to themselves?
http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=74
> if it was upto me I would have all the aristocrats and royals in this country have there land taken and given to the state. but hey im a socialist!
>You mean, kinda like the opposite to Cuba where the "royal family" took all the land and gave it to themselves?
http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=74
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In reply to jon:
well, no as ever, he's wrong. Unless Corbyn is now homeless ? It's so confusing for Simon et al frothing over their keyboards. I think they get so overexcited in their rage, their eyesight goes a bit funny.
well, no as ever, he's wrong. Unless Corbyn is now homeless ? It's so confusing for Simon et al frothing over their keyboards. I think they get so overexcited in their rage, their eyesight goes a bit funny.
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In reply to Big Ger:
It's interesting, been speaking to a few Cuban expats over the weekend and they all love their country and it's culture, but also recognize that Castro was both the best and worst of their country.
the younger ones are amazed at how restricted their lives were there, and yet some i know moved back a few years ago.
in the fairly recent past, he'd apologized for the treatment of black people by his country and the way gay people were treated. He did over see a lot of very bad things, people disappearing and the like that can't simply be overlooked though. Was he a Hero? Probably not, a complicated human being in a very complicated situation.
It's interesting, been speaking to a few Cuban expats over the weekend and they all love their country and it's culture, but also recognize that Castro was both the best and worst of their country.
the younger ones are amazed at how restricted their lives were there, and yet some i know moved back a few years ago.
in the fairly recent past, he'd apologized for the treatment of black people by his country and the way gay people were treated. He did over see a lot of very bad things, people disappearing and the like that can't simply be overlooked though. Was he a Hero? Probably not, a complicated human being in a very complicated situation.
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In reply to sammy5000:
What's your experience of living in a "socialist" country?
> Have you been to cuba? Didnt think so!
What's your experience of living in a "socialist" country?
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
Other than a labour government ....?
The relevant point being that I am not the one calling out pavelk on the basis of his lack of experience of Cuba.
Be interesting to see Sammy5000's response...
> What's your experience of living in a "socialist" country?
Other than a labour government ....?
The relevant point being that I am not the one calling out pavelk on the basis of his lack of experience of Cuba.
Be interesting to see Sammy5000's response...
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In reply to Dr.S at work:
Impressive record by the US.
A bit rich to criticise Castro on human rights though while the US operates an imprisonment-without-trial/torture facility on the same island (and apparently similar facilities spread from Thailand to Uzbekistan).
Was having a few drinks tonight with a Brit disaster relief chap whose experience in Haiti and West Africa had given him a very positive perception of the role Cuba played in the region; "more than impressive", first-in on the ground, massive response, no fuss or fanfare.
For a country under sanctions, ideologically hated by its behemoth super-power neighbour, whose leader was targeted for repeated assassination attempts while arguably being on balance a greater force for good than the leadership he replaced, and despite (by virtue of being on the left) being within a spectrum of political thought that easily lends itself to strongly repressive tendencies, it is amazing Cuba isn't half as totalitarian and despotic as most client/leaned-upon states of either Cold War power.
Impressive record by the US.
A bit rich to criticise Castro on human rights though while the US operates an imprisonment-without-trial/torture facility on the same island (and apparently similar facilities spread from Thailand to Uzbekistan).
Was having a few drinks tonight with a Brit disaster relief chap whose experience in Haiti and West Africa had given him a very positive perception of the role Cuba played in the region; "more than impressive", first-in on the ground, massive response, no fuss or fanfare.
For a country under sanctions, ideologically hated by its behemoth super-power neighbour, whose leader was targeted for repeated assassination attempts while arguably being on balance a greater force for good than the leadership he replaced, and despite (by virtue of being on the left) being within a spectrum of political thought that easily lends itself to strongly repressive tendencies, it is amazing Cuba isn't half as totalitarian and despotic as most client/leaned-upon states of either Cold War power.
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In reply to lummox:
well, no as ever, he's wrong. Unless Corbyn is now homeless ? It's so confusing for Simon et al frothing over their keyboards. I think they get so overexcited in their rage, their eyesight goes a bit funny.
Calling Corbyn an 'Elderly stupid tramp' is mild compared to what some other politicians get called on UKC.
Then again, they're Tory/UKIP, so it's probably therefore acceptable...
well, no as ever, he's wrong. Unless Corbyn is now homeless ? It's so confusing for Simon et al frothing over their keyboards. I think they get so overexcited in their rage, their eyesight goes a bit funny.
Calling Corbyn an 'Elderly stupid tramp' is mild compared to what some other politicians get called on UKC.
Then again, they're Tory/UKIP, so it's probably therefore acceptable...
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In reply to FactorXXX:
> well, no as ever, he's wrong. Unless Corbyn is now homeless ? It's so confusing for Simon et al frothing over their keyboards. I think they get so overexcited in their rage, their eyesight goes a bit funny.
> Calling Corbyn an 'Elderly stupid tramp' is mild compared to what some other politicians get called on UKC.
> Then again, they're Tory/UKIP, so it's EQUALLY unacceptable...
In reply to Big Ger:
Cuba is basically a dictatorship, state censorship of books, newspapers and internet connections is still ongoing and journalists are routinely jailed without charge for 'disrespect'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calixto_Mart%C3%ADnez
Calixto Martínez Arias is an independent Cuban journalist, who was jailed by the Cuban government from September 16, 2012 to April 9, 2013 without formal charge. He had been reporting about new outbreak of cholera at the east of the island, while the Cuban government officially claimed that after a short summer period in 2012 the illness was already eradicated. He also discovered 5 tons of humanitarian aid sent to Cuba by World Health Organization (WHO), which was left to spoil at Havana's airport.
Martínez was accused of disrespect to former leader of the country Fidel Castro and his brother, president Raúl Castro. He thus faces up to three years in prison, as was pointed out by Reporters without borders.
The Cuban government admitted the outbreak of cholera on the island on July 13, 2012, but already on August 28, 2012 stated the illness was eradicated. 417 cases and 3 fatalities were officially reported. In the middle of January 2013, after the rise of cholera cases in Havana, the government officially acknowledged the illness was back.
At the end of January 2013, Amnesty International named Martínez a prisoner of conscience and called for his immediate release. He was released on April 9, 2013, having never been formally charged.
Cuba is basically a dictatorship, state censorship of books, newspapers and internet connections is still ongoing and journalists are routinely jailed without charge for 'disrespect'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calixto_Mart%C3%ADnez
Calixto Martínez Arias is an independent Cuban journalist, who was jailed by the Cuban government from September 16, 2012 to April 9, 2013 without formal charge. He had been reporting about new outbreak of cholera at the east of the island, while the Cuban government officially claimed that after a short summer period in 2012 the illness was already eradicated. He also discovered 5 tons of humanitarian aid sent to Cuba by World Health Organization (WHO), which was left to spoil at Havana's airport.
Martínez was accused of disrespect to former leader of the country Fidel Castro and his brother, president Raúl Castro. He thus faces up to three years in prison, as was pointed out by Reporters without borders.
The Cuban government admitted the outbreak of cholera on the island on July 13, 2012, but already on August 28, 2012 stated the illness was eradicated. 417 cases and 3 fatalities were officially reported. In the middle of January 2013, after the rise of cholera cases in Havana, the government officially acknowledged the illness was back.
At the end of January 2013, Amnesty International named Martínez a prisoner of conscience and called for his immediate release. He was released on April 9, 2013, having never been formally charged.
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In reply to FesteringSore:
Then again, they're Tory/UKIP, so it's EQUALLY unacceptable...
I might have resorted to the lowest form of wit in my post, though if it was correspondingly the highest form of intelligence is questionable.
Then again, they're Tory/UKIP, so it's EQUALLY unacceptable...
I might have resorted to the lowest form of wit in my post, though if it was correspondingly the highest form of intelligence is questionable.
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In reply to GrantM:
All no doubt true, but that simply implies that Cuba is not an advanced liberal democracy. From Singapore and Thailand, to Colombia and China, journalists are imprisoned. Worldwide, its probably the norm rather than the exception. Hardly surprising that Cuba is no different, and while its not a desirable state of affairs, we accept reduced press freedoms, dodgy imprisonment records and mismanagement of resources from all sorts of countries without question or criticism. It strikes me as a odd why Castro, ever since Batistas was overthrown, comes in for particular criticism in this regard.
http://washingtonbabylon.com/hello-history-get-me-rewrite-in-times-obits-fi...
All no doubt true, but that simply implies that Cuba is not an advanced liberal democracy. From Singapore and Thailand, to Colombia and China, journalists are imprisoned. Worldwide, its probably the norm rather than the exception. Hardly surprising that Cuba is no different, and while its not a desirable state of affairs, we accept reduced press freedoms, dodgy imprisonment records and mismanagement of resources from all sorts of countries without question or criticism. It strikes me as a odd why Castro, ever since Batistas was overthrown, comes in for particular criticism in this regard.
http://washingtonbabylon.com/hello-history-get-me-rewrite-in-times-obits-fi...
Post edited at 00:31
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In reply to David Martin:
Very good point about Cuban aid to Haiti and West Africa. For Castro to have achieved a huge worldwide profile and massive influence for such a long time heading up Cuba is extraordinary.
Very good point about Cuban aid to Haiti and West Africa. For Castro to have achieved a huge worldwide profile and massive influence for such a long time heading up Cuba is extraordinary.
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In reply to David Martin:
You've never seen countries other than Cuba criticised for their human rights abuses?
> we accept reduced press freedoms, dodgy imprisonment records and mismanagement of resources from all sorts of countries without question or criticism.
You've never seen countries other than Cuba criticised for their human rights abuses?
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In reply to Big Ger:
I'm sure El Presidente Castro thought "Perfect, trump is in power, now I can die peacefully knowing America has truly f*cked itself up"
I'm sure El Presidente Castro thought "Perfect, trump is in power, now I can die peacefully knowing America has truly f*cked itself up"
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In reply to GarethSL:
Two things stand out from that interview.
1- The staggeringly poor quality of the interviewer -it seems to be a mark of the BBC now.
2- The articulate, coherent and gentle nature of the the Dr's response. Abilities that seem to be sadly lacking in most political discourse at the moment.
Two things stand out from that interview.
1- The staggeringly poor quality of the interviewer -it seems to be a mark of the BBC now.
2- The articulate, coherent and gentle nature of the the Dr's response. Abilities that seem to be sadly lacking in most political discourse at the moment.
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In reply to GarethSL:
She makes a good point about viewing the human rights abuses within context of the time they happenned.
For example, reading about the LGBT treatment in Cuba and the imprisonment of gay people, i just found out that they decriminalised homosexuality in 1979, which is something that didn't happen in the UK as a whole until 1982.
Further reading turned out that an estimated 65000 gays were imprisoned in the UK for homosexuality crimes, and a further 30000 were convicted between the time the sexual offences act was enacted in 1967 and 2003 when the laws were finally equalised for gay and non-gay acts. Interestingly enough, it was a ruling from the European Court of Human Rights which pushed the hand of the UK parliament to do so.
Comparing the timeline of events of gay rights and persecution between the UK in Cuba they match in a strikingly similar fashion.
She makes a good point about viewing the human rights abuses within context of the time they happenned.
For example, reading about the LGBT treatment in Cuba and the imprisonment of gay people, i just found out that they decriminalised homosexuality in 1979, which is something that didn't happen in the UK as a whole until 1982.
Further reading turned out that an estimated 65000 gays were imprisoned in the UK for homosexuality crimes, and a further 30000 were convicted between the time the sexual offences act was enacted in 1967 and 2003 when the laws were finally equalised for gay and non-gay acts. Interestingly enough, it was a ruling from the European Court of Human Rights which pushed the hand of the UK parliament to do so.
Comparing the timeline of events of gay rights and persecution between the UK in Cuba they match in a strikingly similar fashion.
Post edited at 11:19
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In reply to GarethSL:
Good link, as with most things in the world we normally get to hear only a subset of the truth.
While not lauding Castro, it's hardly surprising they were still in the 1950s and I don't think that's all his fault.
The US keeping sanctions against Cuba for the last 50+ years, while using it as a base for Guantanamo only shows the hypocrisy of the US.
Good link, as with most things in the world we normally get to hear only a subset of the truth.
While not lauding Castro, it's hardly surprising they were still in the 1950s and I don't think that's all his fault.
The US keeping sanctions against Cuba for the last 50+ years, while using it as a base for Guantanamo only shows the hypocrisy of the US.
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In reply to gavmac:
And the constant attempts to push the bad sides of Castro in line with the American views, without giving regard to the interviewees response.
That was the most striking part for me! The well informed and thought out responses were fascinating, I can only assume the interview was live, so she had little or no time to prepare for the questions (no idea how these things work), but to be able to articulate such reasoned responses against one sided journalism was incredibly impressive.
> Two things stand out from that interview.
> 1- The staggeringly poor quality of the interviewer -it seems to be a mark of the BBC now.
And the constant attempts to push the bad sides of Castro in line with the American views, without giving regard to the interviewees response.
> 2- The articulate, coherent and gentle nature of the the Dr's response. Abilities that seem to be sadly lacking in most political discourse at the moment.
That was the most striking part for me! The well informed and thought out responses were fascinating, I can only assume the interview was live, so she had little or no time to prepare for the questions (no idea how these things work), but to be able to articulate such reasoned responses against one sided journalism was incredibly impressive.
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
You missed the part where we (the u.k.) tortured convicted homosexuals in attempt to convert them to being straight. Did happen extensively as part of the criminal justice system up to the early 1970's I believe.
D
You missed the part where we (the u.k.) tortured convicted homosexuals in attempt to convert them to being straight. Did happen extensively as part of the criminal justice system up to the early 1970's I believe.
D
In reply to Dauphin:
Yeah, and i left out a few facts like the chemical chastrations, purge of gays from positions in government, active persecution by the police wiht use of agent provocateurs, leniency for crimes against gays under the gay panic defense, etc.
Yeah, and i left out a few facts like the chemical chastrations, purge of gays from positions in government, active persecution by the police wiht use of agent provocateurs, leniency for crimes against gays under the gay panic defense, etc.
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In reply to Big Ger: Meanwhile Saudi Arabia slaughters civilians in Yemen, beheads opponents and persecutes the LGBT community. And when a member of their royal family dies we fly flags at half mast on state buildings. British values?
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
You don't mention the people with AIDS being shut away in camps.
Edit: It might have been HIV, but they were still shut away in camps.
> I think you are about as wrong as you can be, and you should inform yourself a bit more.
> Castro was no saint, and bad things were done under his watch. Some hundreds were executed for war crimes after due process. But they were never institutionalised in the way that, say, the secret police were in East Germany (can anyone NAME the Cuban secret police? Thought not); and no-one ever accused him of retreating to palaces like Tito or Ceaușescu . Instead he retained autonomy against the behemoth 90 miles north, established healthcare and education systems that they could sorely learn from, and created a literate and egalitarian society which even in this day and age seems relatively at ease with itself.
You don't mention the people with AIDS being shut away in camps.
Edit: It might have been HIV, but they were still shut away in camps.
Post edited at 13:53
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In reply to gavmac:
Yes and it's blinding obvious that the good Dr is less of an expert on Cuba than one might hope for.
> Two things stand out from that interview.
> 1- The staggeringly poor quality of the interviewer -it seems to be a mark of the BBC now.
> 2- The articulate, coherent and gentle nature of the the Dr's response. Abilities that seem to be sadly lacking in most political discourse at the moment.
Yes and it's blinding obvious that the good Dr is less of an expert on Cuba than one might hope for.
In reply to Big Ger:
Interesting point on last night's BBC Castro documentary. At the height of the crisis apparently Castro wrote to Kruschev along the lines of "There is no point in these weapons unless we use them first" (I forget the exact quote). This was one of the factors that persuaded Kruschev to back down.
I wonder how Jezzer "I would never use nuclear weapons" Corbyn feels about this.......
Interesting point on last night's BBC Castro documentary. At the height of the crisis apparently Castro wrote to Kruschev along the lines of "There is no point in these weapons unless we use them first" (I forget the exact quote). This was one of the factors that persuaded Kruschev to back down.
I wonder how Jezzer "I would never use nuclear weapons" Corbyn feels about this.......
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Fine, I should imagine. And I doubt that he would have imprisoned gay people either.
> I wonder how Jezzer "I would never use nuclear weapons" Corbyn feels about this.......
Fine, I should imagine. And I doubt that he would have imprisoned gay people either.
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In reply to Mike Highbury:
Yup, just minor details I guess......
> Fine, I should imagine. And I doubt that he would have imprisoned gay people either.
Yup, just minor details I guess......
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In reply to Mike Highbury:
What level of expert would suffice? Richard Madeley?
On another note, I seem to remember Fidel Castro publicly and magnificently tearing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a new one over his tedious anti-Jewish rantings and putting him in his place.
What level of expert would suffice? Richard Madeley?
On another note, I seem to remember Fidel Castro publicly and magnificently tearing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a new one over his tedious anti-Jewish rantings and putting him in his place.
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In reply to Removed User:
I was actually just reading today an article touching on that, and coincidentaly on the nuclear pickle that Postmanpat mentions above. Worth a read along with the follow-up articles from that journo's days in Cuba
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/09/castro-no-one-has-...
> On another note, I seem to remember Fidel Castro publicly and magnificently tearing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a new one over his tedious anti-Jewish rantings and putting him in his place.
I was actually just reading today an article touching on that, and coincidentaly on the nuclear pickle that Postmanpat mentions above. Worth a read along with the follow-up articles from that journo's days in Cuba
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/09/castro-no-one-has-...
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
That does put a rather different slant on it than the one postie portrayed it as. Use nukes in defence of Cuba isnt much different than what various politicans were proposing if the Russians invaded Europe.
He certainly wasnt a saint as some portray him but likewise I dont think he was the demon others have equally simplistically gone for.
> I was actually just reading today an article touching on that, and coincidentaly on the nuclear pickle that Postmanpat mentions above.
That does put a rather different slant on it than the one postie portrayed it as. Use nukes in defence of Cuba isnt much different than what various politicans were proposing if the Russians invaded Europe.
He certainly wasnt a saint as some portray him but likewise I dont think he was the demon others have equally simplistically gone for.
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In reply to Timmd:
Are we now going to hear that the camps were actually medical facilities giving them treatment/ care?
> You don't mention the people with AIDS being shut away in camps.
> Edit: It might have been HIV, but they were still shut away in camps.
Are we now going to hear that the camps were actually medical facilities giving them treatment/ care?
In reply to Removed User:
That seems a fair comparison between the two.
Several years ago an old Commie, Cuba-varient, would try and convert me to the cause or to be slightly less oppositional, at least, by sending me articles about how Jews were better treated in Cuba than in dodgy regimes elsewhere. There was a good deal of truth in this but, around the same time, Ha'aretz published an article about Cuban Jews, the population of which was about 10% of its pre-revolution level, whose interest in their Jewishness (I overstate a tiny bit here) was solely from the medicines and other charitable gifts sent to them by American Jews.
> What level of expert would suffice? Richard Madeley?
That seems a fair comparison between the two.
> On another note, I seem to remember Fidel Castro publicly and magnificently tearing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a new one over his tedious anti-Jewish rantings and putting him in his place.
Several years ago an old Commie, Cuba-varient, would try and convert me to the cause or to be slightly less oppositional, at least, by sending me articles about how Jews were better treated in Cuba than in dodgy regimes elsewhere. There was a good deal of truth in this but, around the same time, Ha'aretz published an article about Cuban Jews, the population of which was about 10% of its pre-revolution level, whose interest in their Jewishness (I overstate a tiny bit here) was solely from the medicines and other charitable gifts sent to them by American Jews.
In reply to KevinD:
> That does put a rather different slant on it than the one postie portrayed it as. Use nukes in defence of Cuba isnt much different than what various politicans were proposing if the Russians invaded Europe.
>
Isn't that just the policy that Jezzer isn't proposing if the Russians invade Europe?
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In reply to Postmanpat:
What's May's stance on torture camps in Cuba opened by the U.S. ? That seems about as relevant .
What's May's stance on torture camps in Cuba opened by the U.S. ? That seems about as relevant .
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In reply to Big Ger:
Who now has the vision, passion and courage of those who made revolution in Cuba and sought to build the revolution throughout South America and Africa? There are no men in the world, now; no thinkers; not even dreamers.
Who now has the vision, passion and courage of those who made revolution in Cuba and sought to build the revolution throughout South America and Africa? There are no men in the world, now; no thinkers; not even dreamers.
Post edited at 08:55
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In reply to Jim C:
Aren't they?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447823/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2688320/
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/03/26/471765424/love-loss-and...
> Are we now going to hear that the camps were actually medical facilities giving them treatment/ care?
Aren't they?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447823/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2688320/
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/03/26/471765424/love-loss-and...
Post edited at 14:05
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