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I've been on this forum for a month or so, and I've been fascinated with how popular winter mountaineering is in Scotland. In Norway where I'm from, it's pretty rare to find someone into winter mountaineering.
What are the mechanisms behind this? Is there some historical explanation for why it's so popular there compared to other places?
What are the mechanisms behind this? Is there some historical explanation for why it's so popular there compared to other places?
In reply to TheFasting:
It's kind of a Goldilocks effect. Big and wild enough to be adventurous, not so much as to be inaccessible to the inexperienced ( though there are no doubt those who'd prefer the latter was not true ).
It's kind of a Goldilocks effect. Big and wild enough to be adventurous, not so much as to be inaccessible to the inexperienced ( though there are no doubt those who'd prefer the latter was not true ).
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In reply to TheFasting:
It's probably down to the climate: the melt/freeze cycles in Scotland can produce good neve and riming which are better for climbing than unconsolidated powder. In contrast, neither the ski touring nor the waterfall ice climbing are anything like as good/reliable as in Norway!
It's probably down to the climate: the melt/freeze cycles in Scotland can produce good neve and riming which are better for climbing than unconsolidated powder. In contrast, neither the ski touring nor the waterfall ice climbing are anything like as good/reliable as in Norway!
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In reply to TheFasting:
The original 1988 edition of Martin Moran's "Scotland's Winter Mountains" gives a good flavour both of the history and of what it feels like to be out there in the midst of it. Hard to beat Tom Patey's One Man's Mountain's for Scottish winter eloquence and wit. One chapter and you'll be as hopelessly converted as the rest of us.
The original 1988 edition of Martin Moran's "Scotland's Winter Mountains" gives a good flavour both of the history and of what it feels like to be out there in the midst of it. Hard to beat Tom Patey's One Man's Mountain's for Scottish winter eloquence and wit. One chapter and you'll be as hopelessly converted as the rest of us.
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In reply to TheFasting:
I think part of the difference is that Norway is huge with a relatively low population density, while the suitable winter mountaineering areas in Scotland are relatively small and the population of the UK is much larger.
Also, having to travel to scotland makes going winter climbing a Thing to Plan, rather than just going outside.
I think part of the difference is that Norway is huge with a relatively low population density, while the suitable winter mountaineering areas in Scotland are relatively small and the population of the UK is much larger.
Also, having to travel to scotland makes going winter climbing a Thing to Plan, rather than just going outside.
Post edited at 17:06
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In reply to TheFasting:
There is a strong history of Scottish winter mountaineering which of course influences present day climbers. As to why there is this history, since the late 1800s there have been keen British rock climbers and alpinists. Winter climbing provided a training ground for the Alps and something else to do when mountain rock was not in condition. Over time, and with gradually improving access to the Scottish mountains, climbing here became more and more an objective in its own right. Nowadays with the 'mixed revolution', Scottish winter climbing is respected abroad for its clean ethics (no bolts) and how an intense full on experience can be gained from such wee hills (much of that being down to the weather).
There is a strong history of Scottish winter mountaineering which of course influences present day climbers. As to why there is this history, since the late 1800s there have been keen British rock climbers and alpinists. Winter climbing provided a training ground for the Alps and something else to do when mountain rock was not in condition. Over time, and with gradually improving access to the Scottish mountains, climbing here became more and more an objective in its own right. Nowadays with the 'mixed revolution', Scottish winter climbing is respected abroad for its clean ethics (no bolts) and how an intense full on experience can be gained from such wee hills (much of that being down to the weather).
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In reply to TheFasting:
Good reply above.
Was it Whillans who, when asked by a French guide what he thought of the Alps, quipped: "It's good training for Scotland in winter!"
Good reply above.
Was it Whillans who, when asked by a French guide what he thought of the Alps, quipped: "It's good training for Scotland in winter!"
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In reply to TheFasting:
I don't know if winter moutaineering is rare in Norway. But you guys are very used to getting outside. One thing I have noticed is, that when skiing through a Norwegian farm yard on the way to an ice climb, the landowner readily give directions without looking surprised.
I don't know if winter moutaineering is rare in Norway. But you guys are very used to getting outside. One thing I have noticed is, that when skiing through a Norwegian farm yard on the way to an ice climb, the landowner readily give directions without looking surprised.
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In reply to Rigid Raider:
I've a feeling Patey said or wrote something along the lines of the Alps being good training for Lochnagar.
I've a feeling Patey said or wrote something along the lines of the Alps being good training for Lochnagar.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Gasherbrum, Masherbrum, Distighil Sar,
All are good training for dark Lochnagar..
Gasherbrum, Masherbrum, Distighil Sar,
All are good training for dark Lochnagar..
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In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
My experience is that a lot of people ski, and there's a lot of ski mountaineering going on in late winter/early spring, and some ice climbing areas. But alpinism during the winter is hard to come by. Those living close to ice climbing areas and crags are probably used to people looking for them.
My experience is that a lot of people ski, and there's a lot of ski mountaineering going on in late winter/early spring, and some ice climbing areas. But alpinism during the winter is hard to come by. Those living close to ice climbing areas and crags are probably used to people looking for them.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Scottish winter climbing has been respected abroad for a very long time - Ben Nevis ice has been internationally renowned since the 1970s, with Godefroy Perroux being one of its chief afficienados. Yvon Chouniard also put up the first ascent of Raven's Gully Direct in about 1971 (I think).
I have been climbing for nearly 20 years and I've been to the Alps a few times and for me there is no experience that surpasses a classic Nevis ice route in good weather and conditions!
> Nowadays with the 'mixed revolution', Scottish winter climbing is respected abroad for its clean ethics (no bolts) and how an intense full on experience can be gained from such wee hills (much of that being down to the weather).
Scottish winter climbing has been respected abroad for a very long time - Ben Nevis ice has been internationally renowned since the 1970s, with Godefroy Perroux being one of its chief afficienados. Yvon Chouniard also put up the first ascent of Raven's Gully Direct in about 1971 (I think).
I have been climbing for nearly 20 years and I've been to the Alps a few times and for me there is no experience that surpasses a classic Nevis ice route in good weather and conditions!
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In reply to Mark Bannan:
Agreed to all of that. I was thinking of the more continental-style mixed climbers who've visited Scotland the last few years. But yes, the same applies to the classic long ice routes on the Ben.
Agreed to all of that. I was thinking of the more continental-style mixed climbers who've visited Scotland the last few years. But yes, the same applies to the classic long ice routes on the Ben.
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In reply to TheFasting: I don't think it's difficult to find winter mountaineers in Norway at all, but it looks different to that in Scotland. Scotland is a unique experience due to the conditions, accessibility , ethics et al., and certainly to be experienced. But compare it to Jotunheimen, or Sunnmore and there are plenty of people climbing those places. Think of all the topptur, or where you climb a bunch of grade I and Ii and ski off the back. You have a lifetime of stuff to get done. We're going into Hunnedalen questing this weekend, or plan to ...
Have you been in touch with Oslo DNT to see if there's a fjellsport gruppe?
Have you been in touch with Oslo DNT to see if there's a fjellsport gruppe?
In reply to wbo:
Maybe it's not hugely difficult, I just meant that I was fascinated by the activity and size of the community in Scotland. Ski mountaineering is big here, but not during the main winter time, mostly a lot of that before and after Easter. There are still people climbing during the winter, of course. Maybe it's just the way it looks from the outside.
If I had to I probably wouldn't have a problem finding people to climb with in DNT or one day NTK, like you say, but that wasn't why I asked. I have a climbing partner who's up for anything, and others I know who I could invite.
I just imagine the climate and mountains are similar based on what I've seen, so the differences must have som explanation.
Maybe it's not hugely difficult, I just meant that I was fascinated by the activity and size of the community in Scotland. Ski mountaineering is big here, but not during the main winter time, mostly a lot of that before and after Easter. There are still people climbing during the winter, of course. Maybe it's just the way it looks from the outside.
If I had to I probably wouldn't have a problem finding people to climb with in DNT or one day NTK, like you say, but that wasn't why I asked. I have a climbing partner who's up for anything, and others I know who I could invite.
I just imagine the climate and mountains are similar based on what I've seen, so the differences must have som explanation.
Post edited at 20:51
In reply to TheFasting:
It puzzles me, that you find it rare to find winter climbers in Norway. Maybe it is because information is scattered around several websites and facebook groups and not collected in one large website like the UKC?
It puzzles me, that you find it rare to find winter climbers in Norway. Maybe it is because information is scattered around several websites and facebook groups and not collected in one large website like the UKC?
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In reply to TheFasting:
I don't think there's any real historical or complex reason for why the Scottish mountains are popular in winter. I think it simply comes down to the fact that you can readily and repeatedly have a life-affirming experience in just a single day.
> What are the mechanisms behind this? Is there some historical explanation for why it's so popular there compared to other places?
I don't think there's any real historical or complex reason for why the Scottish mountains are popular in winter. I think it simply comes down to the fact that you can readily and repeatedly have a life-affirming experience in just a single day.
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In reply to Mark Bannan:
Presumably the enjoyment is heightened by the astonishment!
> no experience that surpasses a classic Nevis ice route in good weather and conditions!
Presumably the enjoyment is heightened by the astonishment!
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In reply to Patrick Roman:
Is the distance so short you can go from one of the bigger cities to the mountains or is it a longer drive? My experience is pretty limited since I was just bussed into Edinburgh by the military and only walked a bit on the hills there when I had time off.
Is the distance so short you can go from one of the bigger cities to the mountains or is it a longer drive? My experience is pretty limited since I was just bussed into Edinburgh by the military and only walked a bit on the hills there when I had time off.
In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
Could be. All the big forums about mountaineering in Norway are pretty dead compared to this one.
Could be. All the big forums about mountaineering in Norway are pretty dead compared to this one.
In reply to TheFasting:
Access migh be part of the answer, the Cairngorms and Glencoe are both only a couple of hours in the car so even day trips are do-able.
Access migh be part of the answer, the Cairngorms and Glencoe are both only a couple of hours in the car so even day trips are do-able.
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In reply to TheFasting:
Just two hours' drive from Glasgow to Glencoe - and under an hour to the Cobbler, if it's in condition.
About two and a half hours from Edinburgh to either Glencoe or the Northern Corries.
Just two hours' drive from Glasgow to Glencoe - and under an hour to the Cobbler, if it's in condition.
About two and a half hours from Edinburgh to either Glencoe or the Northern Corries.
In reply to Tricadam:
Or 8+ from Birmingham... better than London though. And still we
make the trek...
Or 8+ from Birmingham... better than London though. And still we
make the trek...
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In reply to TheFasting:
For Edinburgh or Glasgow anything south of The Great Glen i generally consider a day trip, although i sometimes drive up the night before if it's a particularly early start.
Anything north of that is either a night before trip up and down or what i usually do is climb both Saturday and Sunday to make it worth the drive.
Inverness is basically in striking distance of pretty much everything in a day.
> Is the distance so short you can go from one of the bigger cities to the mountains or is it a longer drive? My experience is pretty limited since I was just bussed into Edinburgh by the military and only walked a bit on the hills there when I had time off.
For Edinburgh or Glasgow anything south of The Great Glen i generally consider a day trip, although i sometimes drive up the night before if it's a particularly early start.
Anything north of that is either a night before trip up and down or what i usually do is climb both Saturday and Sunday to make it worth the drive.
Inverness is basically in striking distance of pretty much everything in a day.
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In reply to TheFasting:
I'm seem to recall from one of your other threads you like a day either side of your hill time for 'travel'. As was said then, if you load the car in advance, plan etc.. hit the road straight from work/uni, you can travel a long way before 11 or 12pm on a Friday night. That would put you, or anyone else in Oslo in a huge range of places.
Oslo to Rjukan is around 150km, 100 UK miles. It would be longish day, but if conditions are good more than worth the effort required for a day trip, especially if you share the driving.
As for popularity, I think it just differs in the Nordics more people will ski or skate, usually because it is colder and with more snow, so the conditions are better. Scottish winters vary, it is rarely super cold, snow cover varies, but there is always something to climb, if you ignore the odd exception like being in the gorms when it's plus 12c in January. People climb, because they can.
> Is the distance so short you can go from one of the bigger cities to the mountains or is it a longer drive?
I'm seem to recall from one of your other threads you like a day either side of your hill time for 'travel'. As was said then, if you load the car in advance, plan etc.. hit the road straight from work/uni, you can travel a long way before 11 or 12pm on a Friday night. That would put you, or anyone else in Oslo in a huge range of places.
Oslo to Rjukan is around 150km, 100 UK miles. It would be longish day, but if conditions are good more than worth the effort required for a day trip, especially if you share the driving.
As for popularity, I think it just differs in the Nordics more people will ski or skate, usually because it is colder and with more snow, so the conditions are better. Scottish winters vary, it is rarely super cold, snow cover varies, but there is always something to climb, if you ignore the odd exception like being in the gorms when it's plus 12c in January. People climb, because they can.
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In reply to TheFasting:
I've always been surprised in Norway to find so few people climbing the hills, whether it's winter or summer. The valleys are full of hut-to-hut tourists on foot or ski depending on season, but none of them seem to head up the hills on either side.
I've always been surprised in Norway to find so few people climbing the hills, whether it's winter or summer. The valleys are full of hut-to-hut tourists on foot or ski depending on season, but none of them seem to head up the hills on either side.
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Usually you find lots of people doing easily accessible F to PD grade climbs. Some very few do the more technical 2000ers and then it's usually only a couple of them that are popular. On Store Skagastølstind and Romsdalshorn I've heard there can be traffic jams during the summer holiday months. But still they're only about AD, at best n4 rock climbing.
There's a strong culture for hiking and some scrambling to get to the top, and some people like to collect 2000ers. But mostly in Norway people just like spending time in nature and not pushing the limits much.
Usually you find lots of people doing easily accessible F to PD grade climbs. Some very few do the more technical 2000ers and then it's usually only a couple of them that are popular. On Store Skagastølstind and Romsdalshorn I've heard there can be traffic jams during the summer holiday months. But still they're only about AD, at best n4 rock climbing.
There's a strong culture for hiking and some scrambling to get to the top, and some people like to collect 2000ers. But mostly in Norway people just like spending time in nature and not pushing the limits much.
In reply to TheFasting:
IMO it's because it is fickle or as Simon Richardson recently put it "Ephemeral".
When it's truly in, it's fantastic and reasonably accessible (as Patrick R said- life affirming and without travelling the globe!)
When it's not in, it's frustrating and depressing- many throw the towel in.
It's the true rush to get something done whilst it's in. You cannot say "I'll do it next week". It's in tomorrow am and might be gone by evening! It's the satisfaction to have done the maths to be at the right time at the right place, in the right frame of mind with the right person.
It offers such a breath of fresh air to week-end warriors like me.
It offers a unique possibility to stretch oneself, and without being particularly talented being recognised by peers (the scene is not that big in my view).
It rewards doggedness.
Obviously, for those operating at the higher end of things, talent and dedication do play a huge amount. They (old generation and new generation in their own way...) are very inspiring and approachable. You are likely to meet them and/or see them do their stuff. You'll want to emulate this at your own level.
it's just a great way to spend time with your mates.
All of the aforementioned factors make it a perfect recipe for a culture of winter climbing.
IMO it's because it is fickle or as Simon Richardson recently put it "Ephemeral".
When it's truly in, it's fantastic and reasonably accessible (as Patrick R said- life affirming and without travelling the globe!)
When it's not in, it's frustrating and depressing- many throw the towel in.
It's the true rush to get something done whilst it's in. You cannot say "I'll do it next week". It's in tomorrow am and might be gone by evening! It's the satisfaction to have done the maths to be at the right time at the right place, in the right frame of mind with the right person.
It offers such a breath of fresh air to week-end warriors like me.
It offers a unique possibility to stretch oneself, and without being particularly talented being recognised by peers (the scene is not that big in my view).
It rewards doggedness.
Obviously, for those operating at the higher end of things, talent and dedication do play a huge amount. They (old generation and new generation in their own way...) are very inspiring and approachable. You are likely to meet them and/or see them do their stuff. You'll want to emulate this at your own level.
it's just a great way to spend time with your mates.
All of the aforementioned factors make it a perfect recipe for a culture of winter climbing.
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In reply to Luke90:
I lived in Inverness for nearly 10 years - I guess I was lucky to get classic Nevis ice on quite a few occasions! I have had 3 seasons based in Abedeenshire and although I have been out West a couple of times, I have yet to add to my Nevis total. Hopefully this year!
> Presumably the enjoyment is heightened by the astonishment!
I lived in Inverness for nearly 10 years - I guess I was lucky to get classic Nevis ice on quite a few occasions! I have had 3 seasons based in Abedeenshire and although I have been out West a couple of times, I have yet to add to my Nevis total. Hopefully this year!
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In reply to the original question, it's cos the rock climbing's shite*, and the summer weather's gopping wet, so you get your adrenaline hit from gnarly winter things.
*In terms of accessibility - most of the good stuff is up north.
*In terms of accessibility - most of the good stuff is up north.
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In reply to TheFasting:
>But mostly in Norway people just like spending time in nature and not pushing the limits much.<
youtube.com/watch?v=yxA9O2WW138&
>But mostly in Norway people just like spending time in nature and not pushing the limits much.<
youtube.com/watch?v=yxA9O2WW138&
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