Winter gulleys opinion

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 Davidwi 27 Oct 2016
So, I recently had a sudden rush of blood and decided that this year I'll get into a bit of simple winter climbing. Really straight forward routes like the brown cove stuff aiming for upto maybe one of the eastern gulleys upto Helvellyn. Grade I/II stuff.
I don't know anyone willing to winter climb so I'm likely to be soloing, so it will be really easy stuff anyway I digress.
I sought a little advice from a well know climber, don't want to name him ...(but he's not the best climber from Hull).
I asked about simple routes and upgrading my G10 walking crampons to either G12's or Seracs they'll be for my Trangos. He said that I should have B3 boots without question. So I've been in the lakes a lot in winter and seen plenty of people climbing the sort of terrain I'm aiming at in B2 boots. So I'm going to regret this no doubt but what opinions circulate on here.


 ebdon 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

B3s will feel better on steeper ground and no doubt give you confidence which may be an important factor if starting out but I would say B2s would suffice at those grades. My partner climbs in walking boots with crampons badly strapped to them on those sorts of grades, although not soloing and i woundnt recommend it. If you're planning on getting into winter climbing it may be worth investing
 BnB 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

For certain there is no route that I would be prepared to solo which would require me to have a pair of B3s. If you own a pair of B2s already, enjoy them on routes up to grade III and by the time they are worn out, you might be ready to attack some harder grades in a new pair of B3s. There really is no hurry at the stage you're at. Experience is far more valuable than equipment for a newbie.
1
 Jim 1003 27 Oct 2016
In reply to BnB:

> For certain there is no route that I would be prepared to solo which would require me to have a pair of B3s. If you own a pair of B2s already, enjoy them on routes up to grade III and by the time they are worn out, you might be ready to attack some harder grades in a new pair of B3s. There really is no hurry at the stage you're at. Experience is far more valuable than equipment for a newbie.

^ Poor advice, B3 is the way to go in winter for climbing/soloing easy routes.
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 ablackett 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

B2 or B3 boots will be the least of your worries if you are inexperienced and soloing grade II. There will be a lot of unseen dangers if you are on your own, cornices, avalanches, steep ice steps, melting ice, climbers above, wind slab to name but a few. B3 boots would be better for any steep ice or rock hard snow you find but the poor boot choice would be very low down on my list of concerns with your current plan!

If you know what you are doing you can sometimes get up grade I or II in a pair of fell shoes and microspikes, but if you don't know what you are doing it doesn't matter what you are wearing.
 BnB 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Jim 1003:

> ^ Poor advice, B3 is the way to go in winter for climbing/soloing easy routes.

So far you're in a minority of one. The OP is talking about grade I territory which an experienced climber would plod up in trainers and micro-spikes as someone else has already suggested. Of course a pair of decent boots are important for truly technical ground but the OP should focus on gaining experience before gear.
4
OP Davidwi 27 Oct 2016
In reply to BnB:

Just so there is no confusion I'm not entirely without sense.
I have climbing experience and I also have winter experience perhaps not in tackling a climb as such but i am aware of avalanche risk etc...

 top cat 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

B3 total over kill. B1 or 2, whatever fits, strap on crampons, single axe and a sense of adventure. I did most of the Brown Cove etc gullies in leather telemark boots, carrying skis.

Save the B3's for when you hit Gd4+
2
 Jim 1003 27 Oct 2016
In reply to BnB:
> So far you're in a minority of one. The OP is talking about grade I territory which an experienced climber would plod up in trainers and micro-spikes as someone else has already suggested. Of course a pair of decent boots are important for truly technical ground but the OP should focus on gaining experience before gear.

Soloing grade 1 routes in trainers and micro spikes is a recipe for disaster,especially if your inexperienced, ...B3 boots make gaining the experience much safer. Possibly, you've not really got the experience yourself to be giving this sort of advice, like the person above whose best lead is grade 3.....??
Post edited at 19:02
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 Michael Gordon 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

The thoughts of Andy K count for quite a lot but I'd really say B2 boots are adequate for grade I/II. Not my no.1 choice, but then I have other boots. Crampon-wise, G12s are as good a choice as any. Upgrade the boots if considering harder stuff.
 Michael Gordon 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

And just so there is no confusion, most experienced climbers wouldn't go up grade I ground "in trainers and micro-spikes".
In reply to Davidwi:

You don't need B3 boots. Winter walking gear - B2s, crampons and an ice axe - plus a canny eye for the weather and conditions plus suitable judgement on when to turn back and when to take a brave pill will do you fine. Yes, experience helps but you have to start collecting some at some point.

FWIW, I did my first grade 1 winter routes in a pair of Hawkins Explorer boots, with neither ice axe nor crampons and carrying only a stick I'd picked up in the valley to help me brake my fall if I needed to (the stick broke on the way up; which was nice). It didn't stop me doing other things, in fact it encouraged me, though an ice axe, then boots that could take crampons, then crampons, were all bought over the next two winters.

T.
 Jim 1003 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Blah blah
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 TobyA 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Jim 1003:

What makes a boot b3 as opposed to b2 Jim?
OP Davidwi 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

The main point is I already have a pair of B2 boots. Personally I would feel confident wearing them on easy winter climbs, an then if it's something I can get my teeth into I'll invest in some B3 boots.

An I hold Mr K in very high regard I was just rather shocked by the B3 or nothing sort of advice.

An I definitely have no thoughts of trainers and micro spikes. Well not yet.
 olddirtydoggy 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

If you're going to climb gullies in the lakes then get a bit of info on testing snowpack. Theres a couple of tests you can do to see if the layers of snow are likely to 'shit off a shovel' and bury you. Helvelyn has claimed climbers in the past, just make sure you don't end up getting burried alive. I'd agree with the B2 being ok up to grade 3 assuming the pack isn't rock hard and vertical.
Usual stuff applies, tell someone where you're climbing and have a time limit. Know when to turn round. Can you retreat or escape a route. Enjoy it!
 Dave the Rave 27 Oct 2016
In reply to TobyA:

> What makes a boot b3 as opposed to b2 Jim?

That is the question. A size 12 B3 may be no less stiff than a size 7 B2 dependant on make/model.
 ablackett 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> And just so there is no confusion, most experienced climbers wouldn't go up grade I ground "in trainers and micro-spikes".

Fair. My point was that if one is experienced on grade 1 style ground, then they are able to make the judgement as to if trainers and microspikes are safe for those particular conditions and that particular route given that climbers risk profile. I accept that in most cases for most individuals that would not be an acceptable option. But for me - even though my best lead is a winter III as someone else has pointed out - it is sometimes an acceptable option.

My wider point was that experience is more important than gear, so don't worry about what sort of boots you have, get some friends!
 TobyA 27 Oct 2016
In reply to olddirtydoggy:
I've climbed vertical ice, and I mean vertical - not ice climbers vertical which is actually 75 degrees - in my Tango S boots, which I believe were some of the earlier synthetic lightweight b2s.

Brian Hall's original idea of b an c ratings was great, but people seem to follow it rather slavishly now. I think the rating boundaries are quite fuzzy and various combos can work ok.
Post edited at 21:27
 Michael Gordon 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> A size 12 B3 may be no less stiff than a size 7 B2 dependant on make/model.

I would hope that would be the case!
 GrantM 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

I did the same over the last 2 winters, upgraded G10s to G12s and soloed loads of routes up to grade II in B2 boots. No problems with the footwear so far.
 stratandrew 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

I agree experience is more relevant than footwear. Leather B1's (Alt Berg) or Composite (Scarpa Cristallo) and well worn G10's are my combo of choice for both winter walking and scrambling mostly for weight and comfort, but then I'm a size 41 so even B1 are reasonably stiff. I've enjoyed a fair number of I's and II's like this and never felt like I needed stiffer boots - or 12 point crampons with longer spikes - basically if it is a 'single axe' day - thats what I wear. I reckon the B2/B3 argument is bogus. I now ice climb in Scarpa Rebel Carbon Ultra's which are really a B2 and that's purely down to wanting less weight on my feet and greater dexterity.
 SenzuBean 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

I didn't see anyone suggest it - but if the simple reason you don't have a partner is because you don't know anyone who winter climbs - join a club. There are clubs all around the country. You'll meet great people, share the experience, learn a lot, have someone you can moan to - and have more fun. You can join a club, learn lots and then choose to solo - it's probably a lot safer than trying to learn while soloing.

Be very wary of other climbers above you (ideally avoid the situation at all). You're trusting them not to kill you (by dislodging bits that could knock you off, dropping things) - that's a lot of trust in people you've never met. I've been unroped on steep ground and been hit by a drink bottle (luckily [that word...] I heard it bounce and turned around and caught it), and also accidentally dropped my own water bottle on steep ground full of climbers too, where a soloist could've easily been clobbered.
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 Dave the Rave 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I would hope that would be the case!

Indeed . More stiff as the pope said to the nun.
OP Davidwi 27 Oct 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

It seems the wonderful world of UKC has come to the rescue and I have had an offer of someone to climb with.

The club thing I've looked into it before but my local club wanted so much attendance but I work shifts so it wouldn't have been possible for me to attend every week or so.
 Jim 1003 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

Also feel free to message me. There's also a good Facebook group, Lakeland climbers with a day off, if you cant find people to climb with.
 Jim 1003 27 Oct 2016
In reply to TobyA:

I'm not sure re the definition, but I had a pair which I had to use on few 4000m peaks in the Alps when my partners boots got lost in the airport. I didn't feel so secure, but I was also using lightweight ski touring crampons.
 Sharp 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

Probably best just ignore all the advice and arguing on this thread and go on and try a selection of B2's and B3's in a shop and see which ones fit best. The distinction between grades of boots is wooly at best, it was never an industry standard anyway.

Most modern B3's will have a rocker action and flex in the toe to make walking more confortable, most modern B2's will be stiff enough to take on anything other than something steep and sustained. Either will be fine.

The advice about the G12's is spot on though, the longer points will make you feel a lot more secure and having horizontal front points is usually accepted as better for lower grade climbs than vertical front points.
3
 CurlyStevo 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

There's a lot of rubbish being spouted on this thread - micro spikes and trainers would not be fine to plod up grade II's in the general case for most experienced climbers (although also fine for some people on some climbs in specefic conditions no doubt). Also b2 boots are fine for winter routes although steep ice and very technical mixed will be easier in a b3 boot, neither of which should be an issue for you for some time to come!

It's probably worth getting a mountaineering crampon. The front point protrusion of the g12s often isn't that great on many boots and also boot to crampon fit varies a lot with manufacturer so try a few crampons before buying imo.
OP Davidwi 28 Oct 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I was thinking of g12's over say seracs or vasaks etc... because my g10's fit great on my la sportiva trangos. So my assumption being they should be more or less a similar fit. Can anyone confirm this, also because rock run are selling them at £112 at the moment so I may order them.
 galpinos 28 Oct 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> There's a lot of rubbish being spouted on this thread - micro spikes and trainers would not be fine to plod up grade II's in the general case for most experienced climbers (although also fine for some people on some climbs in specefic conditions no doubt). Also b2 boots are fine for winter routes although steep ice and very technical mixed will be easier in a b3 boot, neither of which should be an issue for you for some time to come!

Agree with all of this Steve. Good post.
 galpinos 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

EMS (Elite Mountain Supplies) have the Serac and Sabretooth at £99 as well.
OP Davidwi 28 Oct 2016
In reply to galpinos:
Now you've done it haha, £99 for sabretooths looks too good to miss. I think I may have to purchase those now instead. I do like the fact they're stainless aswell.
 galpinos 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

1) Do they fit you boots? (I don't know....)
2) The stainless is a love/hate thing. There were some early well publicised failures, they changed the design but many believe the stainless in inferior to chromoly in this usage.

(I have the Sabretooths, they’ve been fine but have not seen much action)
 jonnie3430 28 Oct 2016
In reply to TobyA:

> What makes a boot b3 as opposed to b2 Jim?

We had a 'discussion,' on here a while ago, I was saying that I enjoyed my c1 b1 combo for vi mixed more than my c3 b3, so I'd say to the op go with what you've got and only upgrade once you have the experience to know it's right.

(I'd also say don't go out alone, post on here for a partner, or join a club that has winter meets, you'll pick up far more and far less painfully from some one else who has been doing it for a while than you would on your tod.)

The definition given in that post was b1 was stiff, but without toe or heel bales for crampons, b2 had a heel bale and b3 had toe bale too. Stiffness didn't get assessed, it was more about what crampons can be used with the boots.




 jonnie3430 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

I've broken two pairs of seracs, bd are good at replacing them, buy I'd rather they didn't have to.
 dek 28 Oct 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

> I've broken two pairs of seracs, bd are good at replacing them, buy I'd rather they didn't have to.

Ouch! Where abouts on the crampon frame did the metal fail? Did the 'bendy' boot have anything to do with it?
 galpinos 28 Oct 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

How/where?
 Rob Parsons 28 Oct 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

> The definition given in that post was b1 was stiff, but without toe or heel bales for crampons, b2 had a heel bale and b3 had toe bale too. Stiffness didn't get assessed, it was more about what crampons can be used with the boots.

That's incorrect.

See e.g. http://www.needlesports.com/content/bootcrampon-compatibility.aspx
Post edited at 12:46
mysterion 28 Oct 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yep, microspikes roll off your feet on slopes around 30 degrees, you would need to know it was stepped-out all the way up to use them. I have done grade I/II with bendy 10 point walking crampons strapped on trainers though (Kahtoola KTS steel - front straps trashed on 4000ers, so now semi-automatic Camp Nano stainless on B2 Trango Alps - as I now have them anyway)
Post edited at 13:43
 beardy mike 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

It seems there are many people here who apply hard and fast rules. B2 boots come in lots of flavours from relatively bendy to not very bendy at all. Personally I've used Scarpa Triolets, a heavy duty B2 for all my mountaineering and climbing for a decade now. That includes walking and scrambling in the summer (although they are a bit warm) to grade i and II gullies (solo - the horror I'm going to die!) and grade IV scottish, and on to WI3+ and 4. I am still here to tell the tale. My crampons stayed on fine, I got slightly pumped calves on steep ice but not really anything to write home about. So people saying you can't use anything less than B3 boots are talking tripe. People recommending microspikes are talking foolishness too though - they don't know you, nor your ability. Using that sort of super lightweight gear is a very personal decision and needs to be based on what you've done before, i.e. youj need to spend some good SAFE time in gullies before deciding to play it a touch more risky. So in conclusion, buy some C2 crampons, (i.e. with a plastic toe bail) which you can use on your B2's and on B3's should you decide to upgrade at a later date.
 jonnie3430 28 Oct 2016
In reply to dek:

First pair were at the advertised stress points behind the front points, they never broke but the stress cracks that would have lead to failure were there. Boots were b1/2, (salewa ravens,) so not particularly bendy.

Second pair had the rivets that hold the front bale on smashed to bits by the dynafit inserts of my touring boots, they were quite new and the dynafit inserts had a little ridge to locate the pins on the binding. The ridges finished off the rivets on new crampons in about 3 hours of front pointing. It would have been nice to know seracs with plastic front bale weren't compatible with dynafit inserts on ski boots. (But not entirely relevant to the ops issue, so apologies for anyone I've misled.)

Just to quantify, I have broken my g14s twice too, both in the frame behind the secondary front points. They were c3 type, used with Nepal's.

My gf now uses the g14s, I have the seracs for summer alpine and have darts for winter and the touring boots. For the op, g10s will be fine for what they want at the moment, though I still recommend going out with someone who knows what they are doing the first few times. I've had friends do fine on grade V ice routes in worn out summer walking boots and strap on crampons.
 jonnie3430 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Doesn't work on my phone...
 Rob Parsons 28 Oct 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

> Doesn't work on my phone...

Can't help you there!

But in that case, just google for similar links: there are loads. The key point is stiffness of the boot.
OP Davidwi 28 Oct 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

Well I've ordered the sabretooths, to be honest the price was good i couldn't bring myself to get anything else.
Just have to think of an explanation to the wife now.
 BnB 28 Oct 2016
In reply to beardy mike:
> People recommending microspikes are talking foolishness too though - they don't know you, nor your ability.

But no one has.

I should know 'cos I referenced ablackett's original "microspikes" comment in a semi-flippant observation about experience being vastly more important than gear, which then got pounced on by Jim1003 as "my recommendation". Mostly I suspect because he didn't enjoy my rebuttal of his first post, or perhaps the 17 dislikes his post has so far garnered!!

What is funny are the serious posts discussing at what angle microspikes cease to be effective, although they failed to specify whether this was neve, powder or pastic ice. Bizarre how "the truth" gets a life of its own!!
Post edited at 15:27
2
 Goucho 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Jim 1003:

> Soloing grade 1 routes in trainers and micro spikes is a recipe for disaster,especially if your inexperienced, ...B3 boots make gaining the experience much safer. Possibly, you've not really got the experience yourself to be giving this sort of advice, like the person above whose best lead is grade 3.....??

Rubbish. I've done grade II in a pair of wellies with no crampons or axes - granted it was for a bet - but to say you need B3's and technical crampons and axes for grade I & II's is silly.

1
 beardy mike 28 Oct 2016
In reply to BnB:

Well sorry for that... I was skimming and kept seeing microspikes... I was rather hoping it wasn't a serious suggestion!
 jonnie3430 28 Oct 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

> Just have to think of an explanation to the wife now.

Give them to her and take her out! Pick the day and she'll be hooked🐵
 TobyA 29 Oct 2016
In reply to Jim 1003:

OK, super light crampons on double plastic ski touring boots feel very different to on light via ferrata or alpine scrambling boots. Likewise with my Trangos when I have heftyish G12s strapped to them they have plenty of punch for front pointing on steep ice.

People have been getting into winter climbing in boots like Mantas for decades and back in the 90s they were just stiff walking boots that you put strap on crampons on - many modern b2 style boots are much more climbing oriented.
 CurlyStevo 29 Oct 2016
In reply to Goucho:

I'd like to see you do raeburns gully in typical water ice conditions in wellies or indeed micro spikes :p
 Goucho 29 Oct 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I'd like to see you do raeburns gully in typical water ice conditions in wellies or indeed micro spikes :p

Ha Ha.

It was a very banked up gully on Snowdon, back when I was an angry young turk
 Goucho 29 Oct 2016
In reply to TobyA:

> People have been getting into winter climbing in boots like Mantas for decades and back in the 90s they were just stiff walking boots that you put strap on crampons on - many modern b2 style boots are much more climbing oriented.

I did my first Grade V in a pair of bendy Galibier Peuterey's, tinfoil bendy Salewa crampons, an antique MacKinnes Thunderbird axe and a Salewa ice hammer. Robin Smith made the first ascent of Orion Direct using the poker from the CIC Hut, and Welzenbech pioneered big alpine ice routes with a single walking axe and 8 point crampons.

Today, people seem reluctant to do Crib Goch under a dusting of snow unless they're kitted out in the kind of gear you'd take on the Dru Super Coulouir in winter.

I'm all for taking advantage of the best gear you can get your hands on to make climbing safer and more enjoyable. But when it comes to winter climbing, the knowledge, skill and experience of a climber, is far more important than the gear they use.
 CurlyStevo 29 Oct 2016
In reply to Goucho:

I was think thinking the grade II raeburns gully on lochnagar
 TobyA 29 Oct 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yeah, but it's grade III when it's like that!
 Goucho 29 Oct 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I was think thinking the grade II raeburns gully on lochnagar

Oh yes, the Raeburns gully that alternates between grade I, II & III depending on conditions?
 CurlyStevo 30 Oct 2016
In reply to Goucho:

It typically has a crux ice pitch at 1/3 height in grade II conditions. Guide book mentions it can be continuous ice up the gully also and then grade III.
 Tricadam 03 Nov 2016
In reply to Goucho:

> Oh yes, the Raeburns gully that alternates between grade I, II & III depending on conditions?

That'll be the one! (Lochnagar) Speaking of which - and changing the subject slightly - hard to think of a better grade II gully, eh? An amazing place. (Do send any suggestions so I can add them to my list for winter days without a partner!)

In terms of Raeburns' grade, on I days the main requirement will be luck, given that in such conditions there's likely to be 10 tons of cornice perched on top of it. On III days, with a wee ice pitch, reasonable boots, crampons and axes. On II days with variable neve, a steady nerve and the ability to spread your weight over your 3 or 4 points of contact in response to what the snow's doing, aka experience.
 Michael Gordon 03 Nov 2016
In reply to Tricadam:

Is Raeburns ever grade I? Felt like III when I did it with the wee ice pitch in the middle, and presumably II without this?
 CurlyStevo 03 Nov 2016
In reply to Tricadam:
It's a great route. The guide book does mention in typical grade ii conditions there is an ice pitch. Which will be at the steepening. When we did it there was nearly continuous ice for 20 meters up to a cave belay. Then the steepening for maybe 5 meters and then easing off. The ice wasn't quite water ice but it was closer to that than neve. High in the grade ii that day. But no harder than things like right twin or goat track gully can often be.
Post edited at 07:44
 Tricadam 03 Nov 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I reckon it was II/III on my day. A slightly rotten, slightly hollow ice pitch was the crux on that occasion. It's fantastic when you turn the corner and realise there's this huge gully that's totally hidden from the approach.

I reckon it could be grade I on occasion if really banked out with powder, but the commensurate size of the cornice plus overall avalanche risk would make venturing up it sheer madness. One would, as Ali G vividly puts it, require balls the size of oranges. Or, indeed, a brain as small as one.
 CurlyStevo 03 Nov 2016
In reply to Tricadam:
Well perhaps after a thaw and refreeze, if fully banked out it could be safe and grade I. I was weary of the cornice they day we did it as it's a notorious avalanche trap for sure. I've done easier grade iii's but such is the way of winter climbing.

Andy Nesbit commented recently that split grades don't normally indicate a border grade they indicate that the grade can be either one or the other depending on conditions. But I know what you mean
Post edited at 08:13
 kipman725 03 Nov 2016
In reply to Davidwi:

I have climbed IV/5 routes in B2 (scarpa charmoz) and G14s (dual point) without feeling like I wanted to upgrade the stiffness of my boots. I have also climbed overhanging mixed, vertical ice and alpine north faces in them where upon limitations were more obvious (calf pump!), however I still got up fine. There should be no problem climbing I/II in B2s, although check the stiffness of the boot as there is massive variability in how stiff B2s are, the charmoz are towards the stiff end.
In reply to Davidwi:
Hi mate, I had trangos and seracs as my first winter kit. They have a heel bail so should be secure enough to solo most things. I really wouldn't say B3 boots will make a huge difference (I have done said routes in both). My mate also wore these with me on the Breithorn Traverse last year with these and they are absolutely fine (I would be worried about cold feet though at 4000m though personally).

I would however say that as important as your kit is your knowledge of winter conditions. I've done a few of the easier gullys on Helvellyn and a few routes on brown cove crags. The summit cornices heavily and although the snow may feel good, you need to be aware that these cornices can slump and avalanche off at some point. Might be worth going with a guide for you first time or an experienced mate. Just a thought.
Post edited at 11:09
In reply to Davidwi:

sports direct are selling vasaks for £80 at the moment mate.
 Jamie B 03 Nov 2016
In reply to kipman725:

> check the stiffness of the boot as there is massive variability in how stiff B2s are

Which is also hugely influenced by the weight of the climber!
 Andy Nisbet 03 Nov 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I took my dad up it. He'd never winter climbed before and was over 60. There was a short ice pitch and the rest was neve. No cornice. We took 45 minutes. That was Grade II and the best conditions you could get. It would never be Grade I.
 galpinos 03 Nov 2016
In reply to Jamie B:

That sounds like you are talking from experience............
 99ster 04 Nov 2016
In reply to Jamie B:

> Which is also hugely influenced by the weight of the climber!

And even more by the size of your feet - the difference in boot stiffness between a size 8 and a size 12 of the same type of boot can be pretty significant.
 stuart58 05 Nov 2016
In reply to galpinos:

I started climbing in the late 70s with leather b1 boots and walking crampons, I would say if you are only climbing then b3 is the why to go however winter walking and grade 1 2 may suit a good b2 boot like the scarpa triplet, buy c2 crampons as well. The main piece of kit is a helmet. Also I d buy a cheap 2 and axe as even grade ones are steep and soon become a grade higher in lean conditions.

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