Questions about GPS:

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 CaelanB 30 Jul 2016

Basically I'm looking into getting a GPS, all I'm interested in the GPS being able to do is give accurate grid references, tell the time and I guess a digital compass would be nice, also it could do with being really durable and having a nice long battery life. I don't care about colour screens, geocaching, route plans and any other paraphernalia

Basically my plan was to use it simply as an aide to a map and compass in case I got lost in a whiteout on the cairngorm plateau etc, i'd whip it out and be able to double check where I am and give myself confidence I'm going in the right direction. basically it would be a confidence piece.

My confusion arises insofar as I can't seem to find a single unit out on the market that does these things (and only these things), they all seem to have other bells and whistles I just don't want. The only one that comes kind of close to what I want is the garmin etrex 10 which gets absolutely slated in every review I stumble upon. It confuses me because I feel a device with all of the things I'm seeking for and nothing else ie quite a simple (and likely affordable) gps would be a fairly sought after thing. Most people I climb with are not interested in all of these other tagging/mapping specifications. Does everyone know something about GPS I don't? Why doesn't such a thing exist? and why does the garmin etrex 10 get such bad reviews?
Post edited at 15:20
 OwenM 30 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

The etrex 10 will do all you want if you're happy with that then buy one. There are phone apps like OS Locate that also give you a grid reference of where you are, this doesn't require a phone signal.
 Adam_Turner 30 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

I'm not sure why the E-trex 10 gets so heavily slated. Perhaps people expect more from what is an obviously basic device? However for yourself it's perfect - there won't be a device on the market which will do only those three things you've listed, they'll all have more features but the e-trex 10 has got to be the closet you'll get.

I had one for years for literally a back up to confirm my location and wouldn't complain at all about them.
 TobyA 30 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

Your phone probably does that already? I've been using my phone quite a lot for navigation over the last couple of years after moving back to the UK - I've been using the Amazon/OS app which allows you to buy 1:50000 map 'tiles' for 79p for the area you are going to - then (in a blizzard in the Lakes back in January for example) it worked perfectly. I still had my paper map but ended up not using it as the phone worked so much better.

I just tried out the OS subscription service (free 7 day trial) as well on a different OS app - 20 quid a year normally I think. I used it to cycle 190 kms from Worcestershire to Sheffield last weekend, mostly on sustrans routes - canal towpaths, old railways, back lanes etc. It worked fantastically well, although I didn't download any maps (I think you can though) so that was reliant on phone signal.

Basically, I was thinking of spending 300 quid plus on a GPS, but I wanted scrolling mapping for cycling mainly, but the phone worked so well, I'm not sure if I will now. Obviously you need some back up power for your phone, but that weight will be less than a phone and GPS unit I suppose.
 ralphio 30 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

My E-trex has got me out of many sticky situations when I've been up in Scotland in winter. Like you I just wanted something that gave me a grid reference and it has been perfect in that regard.
 springfall2008 30 Jul 2016
In reply to TobyA:

Although, never depend on your phone to get you out of a tricky situation - it's almost guaranteed to have a flat battery, get dropped or suchlike in an emergency.
3
 TobyA 31 Jul 2016
In reply to springfall2008:

> Although, never depend on your phone to get you out of a tricky situation - it's almost guaranteed to have a flat battery, get dropped or suchlike in an emergency.

But surely any GPS unit also has that risk? Like I said, take a recharger and a normal map also.

 BnB 31 Jul 2016
In reply to TobyA:

I'm with Toby. Modern GPS units seems completely redundant to me. I use Viewranger GPS (with full OS mapping for pennies) on iPhone. With airplane mode activated to save battery, I can get two or three days of intermittent use between charges, plus peace and quiet on the climb. Throw in a water-and shock-proof case and you're good to go.
James Jackson 31 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

The Garmin Foretrex 401 fits the bill perfectly. I use it for exactly what you say. It's small and doesn't have thousands of useless functions.
 Rob Parsons 31 Jul 2016
In reply to BnB:

> I'm with Toby. Modern GPS units seems completely redundant to me. I use Viewranger GPS (with full OS mapping for pennies) on iPhone.

An Extrex 10 costs about 70 quid; an iPhone several hundred.

For the OP's use case, an Etrex is a good fit. Not everybody has an iPhone.

Etrexes use normal AA batteries, so taking spare power is a trivial matter: you don't need a charger.

In addition: touchscreens are not a good solution when you're wearing thick gloves or mittens and/or have lost the use of your fingers in cold weather, which argues against smartphones in general. (In that respect, the latest versions of Etrexes fitted with touchscreens also seem to me to be a confused offering.)
Post edited at 08:57
 BnB 31 Jul 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> An Extrex 10 costs about 70 quid; an iPhone several hundred.

> For the OP's use case, an Etrex is a good fit. Not everybody has an iPhone.

Who doesn't have a smartphone already for goodness sakes? Why take two devices on the hill?

As for operating the damn thing. The OP wants to check his location a couple of times a day, not wander around checking his emails every five minutes. I can't say it's been a problem for me up on the plateau all last winter.

2
 Coel Hellier 31 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

> It confuses me because I feel a device with all of the things I'm seeking for and nothing else ie quite a simple (and likely affordable) gps would be a fairly sought after thing.

Absolutely, so they don't make one because it would be far too popular and sell far too many . . . and so dent sales of their snazzier and more expensive models. The problem seems to be that there are only two main makers (Garmin and Suunto) and they much prefer to sell you the bells-and-whistles models.
 Rob Parsons 31 Jul 2016
In reply to BnB:

> Who doesn't have a smartphone already for goodness sakes?

Many people don't. But specifically, in this case, we don't know if the OP does.

However since you mention them: what is the current recommendation for an affordable smartphone which functions well as a GPS mapping unit? Not all smartphones have a full range of sensors - e.g. not all have magnetometers I think. Has anybody done a recent survey of the best current compromise?


 petestack 31 Jul 2016
In reply to BnB:

> Who doesn't have a smartphone already for goodness sakes?

I don't!

 springfall2008 31 Jul 2016
In reply to TobyA:

> But surely any GPS unit also has that risk? Like I said, take a recharger and a normal map also.

It does, but they are usually waterproof, tougher and have longer battery life. Plus you don't run them flat reading emails, playing angry birds, polling for bad cell coverage etc.

All I'm saying is depending on your one device (phone) for all critical functions maybe dangerous. Of course if it's just a nice family day out you can survive without a GPS anyhow!
 leon 1 31 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:
The problem that I found with the Etrex 10 (possibly all GPS ?` I dont know as I gave up and ended up going back to just map and compass) was that the Grid Ref`s. were shown in such tiny fonts I could hardly read them on a clear day never mind in a blizzard.
Maybe I was doing something wrong or missed a way to make the numbers` larger without wearing a magnifying glass ?
Like the OP I would like only the same functions but in a blizzard/storm readable form
Post edited at 10:17
 BnB 31 Jul 2016
In reply to petestack:

> I don't!

Hurry up Pete. Get with the programme. You're as young as me so no excuses
 Run_Ross_Run 31 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

I had the 1st generation etrek, i think it was 1st. It was a 10 changed model and they then changed to 12 channel.

Did exactly what ur asking for. Should mine on here afew yrs back. Have a look on ebay etc and you may find some. Basic but functional.
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> An Extrex 10 costs about 70 quid; an iPhone several hundred.

Or you can buy a Moto-E for £80. I got one for £30

> Not everybody has an iPhone.

Not everyone wants an iPhone...

Phones are a cheap way of getting a GNSS receiver with other integrated navigation sensors (IMU, compass). But they do (mostly) have problems with fragility, battery and display in sunlight, as well as the control interface. But they are very versatile...

You choose, you lose...
 DancingOnRock 31 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

I've had the basic eTrex since about 1998. Takes two AA batteries and is waterproof.

Does quite a few other things as well.

Should be able to pick up a second hand unit for less than £30.
 lithos 31 Jul 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

look at GPS watches

i have been using a suunto ambit (just upgraded to ambit 2), OS grid refs, upto 50 hours battery life , waterproof,
barometer for alititude as well as gps altitude, compass - not great) and it tells the time ! nothing too fancy. I am
flogging my ambit 1 soon, price seems to be around 90..100 quid for 2nd hand units (350 for the latest fancy pants version)

alos unlike your smartphone wont cost you a bank roll i it gets really wet !
OP CaelanB 02 Aug 2016
In reply to BnB:

who doesn't have a smartphone?

I don't! hence the desire for such a device
 BnB 02 Aug 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

Well you can get one for less than the cost of an etrex and get a damn sight more use out of it, including all the GPS functions you need.

Each to their own though.
 Richard Wilson 02 Aug 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

> Basically my plan was to use it simply as an aide to a map and compass in case I got lost in a whiteout


You do know that in a white out it is very likely that the GPS wont work.
4
 jonnie3430 02 Aug 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> However since you mention them: what is the current recommendation for an affordable smartphone which functions well as a GPS mapping unit? Not all smartphones have a full range of sensors - e.g. not all have magnetometers I think. Has anybody done a recent survey of the best current compromise?

Not a survey, but my Motorola Moto G Lte is great, but coming up for two years old, the new Moto G3 seems cheap and good? Mine is better than my work Samsung Galaxy S5 mini, which is twice as expensive.
 Only a hill 02 Aug 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

I have a Moto G3. It's excellent for navigation, with long battery life and waterproof construction. Note however that the new G4 is nowhere near as good and a big step backwards, IMO.

I regularly use my smartphone for navigation on the hill. On some recent long-distance trails I have *exclusively* used it for bavigation, only carrying paper maps as backup. It really shouldn't be controversial these days. That being said, I do understand the appeal of a dedicated unit – I have an original eTrex, which still works well, but my current GPS for winter use is the Foretrex 201 (used in conjunction with map and compass). I find a touchscreen phone less easy to use in winter when wearing gloves, but I've never had issues with sudden battery drain in cold conditions.
 Rob Parsons 02 Aug 2016
In reply to Richard Wilson:

> You do know that in a white out it is very likely that the GPS wont work.

What do you mean?
 Only a hill 02 Aug 2016
In reply to Richard Wilson:

Over the last fifteen years, I've used a GPS in more whiteouts than I can count and it always works just fine.
 OwenM 02 Aug 2016
In reply to Richard Wilson:

> You do know that in a white out it is very likely that the GPS wont work.

Only use my GPS when it is a white out not been let down yet, I've had one about four years I live in Scotland and go out regularly throughout winter, so it's seen quite a few white outs.
 jkarran 02 Aug 2016
In reply to CaelanB:

I'm not sure why you're bothered that devices come with added bells and whistles. For example having an OS moving map feature in addition to your grid reference function means you don't have to get your map out in a downpour or howling gale once you've switched to checking your position with GPS. You can still keep the paper/magnetic back-ups (safe and dry) but if you're going to have the GPS why not buy one with nice features, why make life harder for yourself?

I see lots of phone recommendations and for some tasks I totally agree but one thing phones really don't like is rain. The touch screens don't like gloves or being in a bag and the rain kills the phone. Remote areas with poor reception kill batteries too. For proper nasty weather you want something waterproof with buttons.

jk
 Only a hill 02 Aug 2016
In reply to jkarran:

I completely agree with your comments about rain – most touchscreens still go all over the place if they're covered with water droplets. However, in all but the heaviest rain this is usually as simple as wiping the phone on your jacket sleeve and carrying on.

While normal gloves make using a touchscreen awkward or impossible, it's trivial to get touchscreen-compatible gloves. Some mountain-specific gloves even have this feature and I can confirm that it works perfectly well. (However, as stated in my post above, it's still a bit more awkward in winter when you're using thicker gloves and probably wearing them all day. That's why I still prefer a traditional GPS in winter.)

For hill use, it's a good idea to get a waterproof smartphone, such as the Moto G3. There have been many models available for some years now. Some are even shock-proof.

"Remote areas with poor reception kill batteries too." <– This is an example of user error. Engage Airplane Mode and keep using the phone as a GPS with no battery impact from poor reception.

I am being devil's advocate to an extent here, because I do think you have a point – there are some advantages to using a dedicated GPS in some circumstances. But there are a lot of common misconceptions about using a smartphone as a GPS too, and most objections can be easily overcome these days. A smartphone is far more versatile than most dedicated GPS units and just as reliable.
 Richard Wilson 02 Aug 2016
I must be unlucky then as I have had a few instances when the conditions have stopped any GPS signal reaching the units.

From memory thick fog & ultra heavy rain.

Never used it in heavy snow.

 tony 02 Aug 2016
In reply to Richard Wilson:

That sounds very odd. Like others here, I've used GPS devices in thick fog, cloud and rain without any difficulties.
 Only a hill 02 Aug 2016
In reply to Richard Wilson:

Some of the early consumer GPS units had less sensitive antennas that could be affected by tree cover or (very) wild weather, but I don't think any GPS manufactured since about 2000 suffers from those issues. If your GPS is a newer model, maybe it's faulty.
In reply to Richard Wilson:

Tropospheric conditions do degrade the signal, due to both attenuation and scatter. So rain and snow may be expected to degrade the signal, but a modern sensitive receiver should cope. Ionospheric and tropospheric models are certainly used in GNSS constellation simulators...

The other problem to consider in the mountains is canyon effects, where reflections and blockages cause problem for the navigation solution (reflected paths are longer), which can cause position errors of hundreds of metres. It's something every GNSS user needs to understand; know when your device may be vulnerable (just like more traditional navigation tools).

Urban canyon environments (skyscrapers) have the same problem, sometimes even worse, due to the flat surfaces that give very sharp reflections (unlike the more diffuse reflection from a natural, random rock surface; the more slab-like the rock face, the worse the effect will be).
 petestack 02 Aug 2016
In reply to jkarran:

> I'm not sure why you're bothered that devices come with added bells and whistles. For example having an OS moving map feature in addition to your grid reference function means you don't have to get your map out in a downpour or howling gale once you've switched to checking your position with GPS. You can still keep the paper/magnetic back-ups (safe and dry) but if you're going to have the GPS why not buy one with nice features, why make life harder for yourself?

Couldn't agree more! After running lots in the hills with no GPS, GPS that doesn't do British grid ref. (Forerunner 305) and GPS that does (Forerunner 310XT), I got myself an Etrex 20 for exactly that reason. And, while the Etrex strangely hasn't proved to be quite as accurate as the 310XT under some conditions (hmmm, WAAS/EGNOS off?), it's still plenty good enough, and way better than grid ref. only if you like to get out and keep moving. Also doubt it would be significantly/any cheaper to produce a minimally-featured unit these days, and you can always use a mapping GPS without looking at the map(s) if you insist!
 Richard Wilson 02 Aug 2016
In reply to Only a hill:

It was an much older unit.
Zoro 02 Aug 2016
In reply to CaelanB:
I have a Suunto traverse which works great, gps, altimeter, compass, and it has a nifty track back feature which I've tested a couple of times in complete white outs in the gorms.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...