UKH

This topic has probably had threads before but...

I sold a pair of Mammut base camp trousers on Ebay earlier this month. I posted them off and have a receipt and therefore proof of postage. After I posted them the buyer emails and says his Ebay address has caused problems before and can I send to a slightly different address. No can do I say as they are already in the post. Next thing I know a dispute resolution case has been opened andtoday, in 19 minutes without asking for my side of the story, Ebay find in his favour and refund him out of my Paypal account! Surely if I have proof of postage the dispute is between him and the Royal Mail!? I am now out of pocket and without the trousers back. What if any legal recourse do I have?

Cheers
Davie

In reply to DR:

My sympathies. I do a lot of Ebaying and things do go wrong sometimes.

As I understand it, you have to post to the address that Ebay send you. Anything else runs the risk of not being covered by their dispute resolution.

So if you sent to this, you should be good to raise a complaint to Ebay. The online chat help desk seems a good starting point.

Separately you could raise a missing item with the PO. They usually pay up after 28 days if the item isn't found and payment would be to you.

In reply to DR:

Search for the eBay phone number and call them. I've done it in the past and they are very helpful.

In reply to Steve-J-E:

Yep did that. They said that as I didn't have the parcel tracked I couldn't prove that delivery had been attempted so they were siding with the buyer. I argued that as my listing said it would be posted Royal Mail first class the next day, which I did, and that I had proof that I sent it to the address that he provided then I had fulfilled my contractual obligations. Made no difference.

Cheers
Davie

In reply to Babika:

Yep I posted to the address supplied with his Ebay account. It was only after I'd posted that he messaged me and asked me to post to a slightly different address. Tried the Ebay helpline today and they were useless and basically said it was my fault because I couldn't prove it was delivered. So they've come down on the side of a guy who admits to a dodgy address and can't prove it wasn't delivered. Great. Goodbye Ebay.

I will try the PO tomorrow.

Cheers
Davie

In reply to DR:


unless it was a signed for delivery they will just say that it was delivered but they can't prove it.

Sounds like you've been done over.

The customer buyer protection on E-bay is starting to get silly,they always side with the buyer it seems.
Aside from this there are the distance selling rules for businesses and I know a few traders who are getting properly pissed off with having to refund postage costs when people ignore the description and buy things anyway when the postage is twice the profit margin they can hope to make selling the item.

In reply to DR:


As I understand it, the contract you enter in to is to supply the goods to the purchaser, not just to put them in the post. If the PO lost the parcel then would you expect the purchaser to suck it up?

The requirement to provide tracking information/proof of delivery as part of the dispute resolution process is covered in the seller's help pages on eBay: http://ebay.eu/2aJyJg4. Arguably it should be stated more explicitly up front although TBH I didn't need telling that some people might try to scam me by claiming non-delivery - that's why I always state that delivery will be signed for, and set my delivery charges accordingly.

In reply to gethin_allen:


It's part of the standard terms of distance selling these days. They need to build it in to their business model. It's probably why a lot of eBay traders offer free postage: that way there's nothing to refund if the customer changes their mind. It's only the cost of the basic service they are obliged to refund: if the purchaser has paid extra for a premium service then under the Consumer Contracts Regulations (which replaced the Distance Selling Regulations in 2014) they are only entitled to the cost of the basic service back by default. So if the basic service is free -> nothing to refund.

In reply to Martin W:

Spent a while working for a gear company doing their mail order, and lost deliveries are always the responsibility of the seller- this is enshrined in law to protect mail order customers, so Ebay have no option but to side with the purchaser in this case- its up to you to take it up with Royal Mail. Sounds like your purchaser is exploiting a loophole in the system though and needs blacklisted.

Royal Mail will pay up eventually- up to a certain value (currently £20 for 1st class I think) so you should get your money back, unless the item you posted was worth more than that- RM will argue that you should have taken out additional insurance in that case. https://business.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/631/~/our-retai...

In reply to Martin W:

Yep well it is a hard lesson learned for me. I've never offered tracking on hundreds of sales over the years and never had a problem until now. If I stay on Ebay it will be registered and tracked from now on.

Cheers
Davie

In reply to Martin W:

I agree with you.

Mrs C does a fair bit of ebaying, she sends second class post for low value items that we would be happy to swallow the loss (I think 99% of items get delivered no problem). Everything else is tracked and signed for.

Note if you send second-class and prepay your parcel (you pay through eBay and print the label with barcode at home) take it to the sorting office and it gets there as fast as first class.

It's also worth noting that eBay sales are covered by distance selling regulations and the buyer can return unwanted items (for no reason) and you have to give a refund on the price and the postage and most importantly - Sellers must inform their customers of their right to withdraw from the contract within the 14 day cooling-off period. If sellers do not provide this information, consumers have up to 12 months to return an item for a refund.

So make sure you tell the seller within 14 days of the purchase that they can change their mind or they can keep your item for up to a year and then return it and you have to refund - Mrs C got caught out by this.

In reply to DR:

Yes, you can challenge it through a Paypal dispute. You have like 6 months to do it as well. When you open the dispute escalate it right away and include the receipt as proof (scan it/take a pic of it with your phone).

In reply to DR:

Sorry to hear about your problems.

I used to sell a lot of items on eBay and about 10 years ago I found to my cost that a receipt of posting is meaningless to them and their dispute process.
As a result I changed my policy to ensure ALL items are sent via recorded delivery or via courier with a tracked and insured service.

Seems crazy but you have to protect yourself from the scammers. I seem to recall it was pair of La Sportiva Katana's that someone claimed to have not received when I knew they had. It's a nasty feeling you're left with.

Good luck with getting your money back or you might need to chalk this one up to experience.

In reply to DR:


Unfortunately ebay automatically resolves in favour of buyer if item was sent without tracking. I had to learn that mistake myself. Even if buyer did got the item he still can open a dispute and win a case.

In reply to DR:
Was the dispute opened and closed before the package could arrive?

In reply to DR:

If the purchaser makes a habit of doing this it should be reflected through feedback comments. I often look at feedback and, just as importantly, feedback left for others as you get an idea of how sh***y some people are going to be by the rude aggressive comments they leave.

If you want tracking at no extra cost the Hermes service (same price as PO) seems useful although it's an extra £1 for signed for I think.

In reply to Babika:


Signed is not required by ebay. If tracking shows item as delivered you win the dispute. However where's one more loophole for buyer to request a return because item arrived damaged and send you back empty box or a dog shit. Ebay will rule it out in buyers favour because item was 'returned'.

Generally ebay is on buyers side in majority of cases.

In reply to itsThere:

No a couple of weeks after. But the buyer never contacted me in the interim to say it hadn't arrived.

In reply to cander:


On this last point, I've sold a few things recently, and it looks like the default returns policy for a seller to offer is "accepted within 14 days" which appears on the item listing. Does this count as the seller giving the notification you describe, or should I be sending a separate notice to the buyer as soon as they make the purchase?

In reply to knthrak1982:
That's eBay policy - I'm not a lawyer but I would have thought that a contract clause does not trump the law, I.e. Your statuary rights are not affected. Mrs C has had one instance where a purchaser returned an item after 3 months and she was obliged to offer a refund - the cynic in me believes the purchaser had worn the item of clothing then returned it to get the cash back.

Hence we always send a follow up message on posting offering a refund up to 14 days after the item is received by the buyer.

In reply to knthrak1982:

Distance selling regulations only apply to business sellers.

'This is a short guide to Distance Selling Regulations (DSR) and eBay

DSR's do not apply to real world auctions however, trading standards and the DTI do NOT class eBay as auctions regardless of it being called an online auction. Therefore if you are a business you are liable to abide by DSR's and ensure you are running your business legally. Visit the eBay for business guide

The DSR's do not apply to private sellers, so for those of you that sell unwanted items as opposed to buying to sell you are not legally obliged to abide by the DSR's. You do not have to offer returns or a 7 day cooling off period

As a private seller you need to decide whether you wish to offer returns and/or exchanges

Trading Standards are well aware of eBay and the business legalities

I hope this has helped to clear up any confusion regarding eBay and Distance Selling Regulations and if in any doubt as to how the law applies to you visit the DTI website or consult your solicitor.'

In reply to DR:

It's probably no help to you now (although I noticed another suggesting to open a paypal dispute, which I think is worth doing) but I sell a lot of unwanted stuff and these are my guidelines:
- Gumtree or local selling sites for general stuff - cash on collection
- ebay when this is not successful, as it has a larger audience - cash on collection - usually you can avoid ebay fees too
- ebay for small low value items where I can write off any loss - 1st class post
- ebay for higher value items - 2nd class signed for only

I have also been the victim of buyers who change addresses (left me negative feedback when I wouldn't send to a different address) and who have worn clothes and then returned them. It's part of the deal. Mostly, though, I have successful sales. Gumtree cash on collection is always my preference for selling things if I can. Much more protection for the buyer.

In reply to DR:
To those outraged that ebay don't accept proof of posting as enough to settle in favour of the seller, it's worth pointing out that proof of posting doesn't actually prove *what* was posted, just that something was. When I bought an item and received an empty box, I was quite pleased that they didn't just shrug and say "well he posted it so you must have received it".

In reply to TMM:


The information you quoted is dated 2006, and is slightly out of date since the DSRs have been superseded by the Consumer Contracts Regulations as of 2014.

It is still the case that they only apply to business sellers, not private sellers, same as the DSRs. (My previous reply to gethin_allen was in response to his post about "traders" on eBay, which in the context of his post I took to mean business sellers.)

In reply to Babika:


Unfortunately feedback isn't worth much.
As a seller you can not leave negative feedback if the buyer messes you around.
As a buyer I left negative feedback that said item faulty, seller ignored all communication, refund obtained via eBay.
All true but eBay removed the feedback as it didn't fit their guidelines..

In reply to stubbed:



How can you avoid EBay fees?

You can avoid 3% PayPal fees by Collection Only, but EBay will still bill 10%. Unless you lie and end the auction early saying "no longer available" and make a private arrangement with the purchaser. But this is immoral (maybe even illegal) and certainly against the EBay Rules. It also rules you out of any protection offered by them.

Personally I'd just pay the 10% and factor it into the cost....

In reply to Babika:


It certainly isn't illegal, why would you think it was?

OP can still open a paypal dispute for a chance of reversing the ebay dispute outcome, I've done it a couple of times.

In reply to Removed User:


When you sell on eBay you enter in to a contract with them and agree to a level of fee's for their advertising and facilitating the sale.
By lying and then arranging the sale privately you are breaking that contract.

In reply to Dax H:

That doesn't make it illegal lol. You'd be breaking ebay's user agreement but they aren't even the entity you're entering into a contract with. They just facilitate the buyer and seller entering into a contract with each other. It's in no way illegal to break that contract.

In reply to Dax H:

Breach of contract (any contract) is a civil matter, it doesn't break the law. The aggrieved party may result to sueing, but that's for compensation for breach of contract, again a civil thing. You cannot be imprisoned nor fined for it.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Yes you are correct it's not out and out illegal due to being a civil matter but legal proceedings can be brought.

In reply to Dax H:

I still don't understand why someone would be so tight fisted as to say "I'm using your services but not paying your fees - now sue me"

In reply to Babika:


Oh dear oh dear I am terribly sorry to sound so unfortunately cynical or unkind but dear Babika, the world is littered with such types and I do mean littered sob sob sob what a world

Edit, spellink

In reply to abseil:

Well maybe such tight fisted gits abound. Guess I must be lucky enough not to have any as friends.

Still seems odd to brag about it.

Ps don't cry about it, there there. Calm down dear abseil

In reply to Babika:


Oooooooh I am calm now dear Babika HONESTLY but on the other hand I did burst into tears of emotion watching "Top Gun" (and possibly "Bambi" too, watching it as an adult, can't really remember now...)

Edit, add smiley face

In reply to Babika:

It happens. Last motorbike I bought I went round, had a look and paid cash. The seller asked me if I would withdraw my bid so he didn't have to pay the fee's.
I said no and told him to mark the auction as long longer for sale if he was bothered but he didn't want to do that.
Apparently do that too many times and eBay ban your account.

In reply to Dax H:

I'm sure it does.

Bit like I'm sure some people sneak into climbing walls past the reception and don't pay. Or nick stuff from the supermarket. Doesn't mean I want to be impressed by their theft as if its somehow clever.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Nit picking, but I'm not so sure about that. You enter into a contract to receive a service (finding a buyer and selling the thing), receive the service, then lie about it to avoid paying - that's fraud isn't it?

In reply to deepsoup:

Good point, I suppose it is.