UKH

Bought a Hoolie 2 tent, last July. The second time I used it, in totally benign conditions, a pole snapped and tore a hole in the tent.

Wild Country says fair wear and tear. Is that their way of saying it is a crap tent and I am better off getting a replacement from Decathlon?

In reply to ian caton:

Small Claims court?

In reply to ian caton:

If the circumstances are as you describe, then it isn't fair wear and tear. Wild Country have in the past have had a pretty good reputation for this sort of thing, perhaps you explained the circumstances to them incorrectly?

In reply to ian caton:

The four most common causes of pole failure are probably, in no particular order;

very bad weather
faulty pole material
pole sections not properly connected / fully mated
accidental stress to the pole, such as someone pissed/ playing children falling on the tent

You need to convince TN which is the cause. HTH

In reply to Indy:

Thanks for response Indy, but too see below.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Well I thought so, that is one of the reasons I bought it.

This is how i explained it to them:

"This tent was bought from xxxxxx , in xxxxx, approx August last year. It has been erected twice, both in benign conditions. The last time was this last weekend. After pulling the pegs at one end and the tent folded down, one of the poles snapped and tore a hole in its retaining sleeve in the fly sheet. I cut the elastic string in the pole to be able to extract the remains of the pole without doing further damage.
I would be really grateful if you could fix it. I haven’t been able to immediately lay my hands on proof of purchase, but if it is really necessary in order to claim on the guarantee I will do my best to find it."

So I was genuinely shocked to receive this:


"Dear Ian

Our ref xxxx
Received: Hoolie 2 Fly, tent bag and X1 Pole
Broken pole and ripped pole sleeve

Bent and snapped pole –wear and tear, not faulty

X1 patch polesleeve £15.00

Option 1 – replace pole £27.99
Option 2 – Replace section £10.00

P&P £3.95

Please confirm within the next 7 days if you would like to proceed

Payment is required before we can proceed with any order or authorisation and can be made by:
Cheque made payable to Terra Nova Equipment
Card details by phone – 01773 833300 option 1
Please quote PR16637 when contacting us

Kind Regards,"

No Name supplied.

Terse or what. Have I missed something?

In reply to ian caton:

I have had the same thing with several TN poles, as have others. TN didn't want to know. They don't deserve the reputation they have in my opinion.

In reply to Rick Graham:
Thanks for response Rick, but the terseness of their response does not bode well.

The weather both times was glorious sunshine, no wind.

Faulty pole material - probably - but i am no materials technologist.

Pole section not properly mated - the pole was split for the full length of the adjoining poles insert, so i believe properly mated.

Accidental stress - I guess "maybe", but not as far as I know, it was perfectly ok through the night before the breakage and I am sure nobody went near it in the morning until we went to take it down.


But to come back to my original question, do I bother to fix it, or do i go somewhere else?

Am I wrong to take their response as meaning that the tent isn't worth repairing? That is, if two outings is fair wear and tear, what good is it?

In reply to MG:
Thanks for response MG. Interesting. So who has a deserved reputation?

I thought they would just look at it and think, "obviously new tent, won't cost us very much to fix, might as well, might get positive forum comment somewhere".

In reply to ian caton:


If it were my tent, I would send another letter /email, for starters.

Perseverance, stubbornness and justice usually win out in the end.

In reply to Rick Graham:

I will give them a call tomorrow, I just wanted to get a take from others first. Thanks again for input.

In reply to ian caton:

If you telephone, send an email confirming what was said / agreed and if appropriate make some additional comment.

Shows you are serious and a "papertrail " can be invaluable later.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Really appreciate your input Rick, but to be honest I'm not going to get too stressed about it.

I just don't want to chuck good money after bad, if it is going to break after another couple of outings.

In reply to ian caton:

Then I would go, quietly, firmly, politely ballistic. I would phone them, ask to speak to the person in charge of returns, and take it up with them. You can point out that legally they don't have an option (other than to call you a liar); a pole on a tent that breaks in fair weather patently isn't fit for purpose and has to be replaced.

Something along the lines 'I'm sorry, there appears to be a misunderstanding here. The pole broke in perfectly good weather so it must have been faulty - I'm sure you're not saying that a pole can reasonably expect to be worn out after two outings?' Etc etc.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I will give it a go Rob, but I come back to it. Is it worth having?

In reply to ian caton:


I will have it if you really don't trust/like it anymore

In reply to Rick Graham:

Steady on Rick.

Ah I see what you are saying. " It is worth having "

Thanks for PM Rick, very helpful.

In reply to ian caton:

I had a TN tent destroyed in strong wind and the retailer I bought it from sorted me out at Uttings. I would have thought that the problem and solution is with the retailer as they were the ones you bought it from, not TN. That said, I would have expected TN to sort you out as surely they wouldn't want a thread like this popping up on a reputable site like UKC. I really hope you get sorted out.
As a side note, I was looking to buy a 3 man ultralight tent and couldn't decide if I'm getting a Mountain Hardwear or it's TN counterpart. I've just purchased the Mountain Hardwear Ghost UL3 because of your thread. Thanks for posting.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:


Yep, you need to go via the shop, they deal with the manufacturer.

My Terra Nova tent is 16 years old this summer (!) but still going great despite a lot of use down the years in some reasonably unpleasant weather, but there has to be at least a decade now of threads on UK of people complaining about TN poles breaking and not always a particularly helpful response from the company, so I'm not sure if I wouldn't try a different make when I need to replace it. Perhaps that is an unfair impression we've been left with somehow, but it does seem to be quite regular that threads like this pop up.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Thanks for posting, good luck with your tent.

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for input. Wish I had known. I guess it's worth fixing, just don't want it to happen again soon.

In reply to ian caton:

I've probably had 10 poles break on my 2 terra nova quasars over time, usually in benign conditions. They stopped replacing them and started blaming me. I now have 2 Hillebergs.

In reply to ian caton:

Similar thing happened to my mate who I convinced to get out. He got the Zephyros and on the first night the pole snapped. I fixed it on the go, but had to call it and he went back home next day while I spent another night. WC decided to replace it, but it took quite some time and effort. Then they sent the replacement to the wrong address. He finally got it few months later.

Meanwhile, my Force Ten Helium 1 (equivalent to the Zephyros 1) keeps going strong. I once ripped the bag (I think with crampons, can't remember now) and the Force Ten sent me a new bag for free.

In reply to ian caton:

I found Resolver on MoneySavingExpert very good, instant reply and positive result from two firms.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/site/resolver

M

In reply to Phil1919:
Good to know but not.

In reply to PPP:

Thanks for input PPP, OK will see what happens tomorrow when I call them.

In reply to mary:

Thanks Mary, I didn't know about that.

In reply to ian caton:

Yes, its a shame, because the tent design was great and they are a British company.

In reply to Phil1919:

Strange, because their climbing hardware is OK. I have just bought a brand new set of Rocks.

In reply to ian caton:

(except for that whole rocks-made-in-China-and-then-recalled thing)

Are Wild Country and Terra Nova the same thing, or are they separate companies, and if so what is the relationship - do TN make the tents for WC/vice versa? How much of the R&D is done by each company, and how much is just a brand history thing?

In reply to ian caton:

Exactly the same thing happened to me a couple of years ago: Wild Country tent, pole broke in moderate weather, ripped flysheet. Wild Country were extremely unhelpful, so in the end I binned it and bought another tent from a different manufacturer.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Hmmm.

I always thought wild country bought TN. But now you mention it I am not sure . My tent is branded Wild Country, I think there is only one Wild Country.

In reply to andrewmcleod:
IIRC back in the dim distant Wild Country climbing and tents were one and the same before splitting into two companies and the tent side becoming Terra Nova. My old voyager was the last of the Wild Country branded ones. Now, confusingly, the cheaper Chinese made line are branded Wild Country to distinguish them from the more expensive British made Terra Nova line, which are now also predominantly made in China (even more confusingly).
My Voyager ground sheet leaked from the get go and their response was not especially helpful. That said, I now use a cheaper wild country Zephyros and the zip pull broke after a couple of outings. I contacted the retailer (Cotswolds) who sorted it extremely quickly. As said before, contact the retailer first.

In reply to Andy2:

Sorry to hear about your experience it must have left a bad taste. I hope I am not going to be in the same boat.

In reply to ian caton:
I had a similar experience with a Marmot tent, the U.K. Agent replaced the pole by return of post. Within a month another pole broke, the agent immeadately posted a whole new replacement set of poles free of charge, apologised, and stated the pole performance was not what I should have encountered. That's service!

If you search these forums you will find a litany of unhappy stories over the years about newer Terra Nova tents.


In my case I delt with the agent as I had brought online and had no local outlet. Though as pointed out above technically your contract is with the vendor, not the manufacturer.

In reply to ian caton:

A long time ago (80s) Wild Country made climbing gear, tents and some clothing and packs. IIRC Terra Nova and Extremities (gaiters, gloves etc) were split as a separate company back in the mid 90s. They then brought in the cheaper tent line Wild Country in the 2000s. Wild Country climbing gear is now part of the Salewa group in Germany, I'm pretty sure that despite the name, the tents have nothing to do with them these days.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

The better retailers and manufacturers realise that a faulty returned product is not a problem and unexpected cost to them but an opportunity to make a customer for life.

In reply to ian caton: i think you need to go to the shop who sold it to you. Or did they send you to TN?

In reply to ian caton:
This is the reason why I gave up with TN years ago. Poles snap as soon as you look at them.
My 15 year old MHW is still going strong with the original poles.

In reply to ian caton:

Thanks for all responses. To be honest I didn't think of going back to the shop, it is approx an hour's drive away. I looked on the Wild Country web site, which directed me to the Terra Nova site. I then phoned and a very reasonable women said to send it in to them to have a look at.

It didn't occur to me, naively, that there would be any problem . I had understood WC to be a British manufacturer of tents of good repute. I can now see my mistake.

My experience of taking things back to shops is mixed. The usual being that you need to contact another company who deals with warranty work.

Now it is at Terra Nova I am a little stuck. I will phone tomorrow. As mentioned before I won't get too stressed by it. My main concern is, is it worth repairing? I notice nobody had come on here extolling the virtues of these tents.

In reply to ian caton:

Twenty odd years ago they were very good tents.
Unfortunately most of the manufacturing has been outsourced to the far east and the quality has declined. They rely on the reputation of a once great brand to sell their current products. I think most of the manufacturers are doing this now, so you end up with similar quality issues no matter which brand you buy.

So when your tent fails in light winds and they say fair wear and tear, they're just telling you their products are crap! It's a real shame.

In reply to ian caton:

Sounds like a faulty pole. Write to them again quoting the sale of goods act. It should be fit for purpose and and durable. Say this in your letter. Durable usually means at least up to 5 years. They cannot prove it was in a force 12 gale just as you cannot prove it wasn't. Quoting sale of goods usually works I have done it successfully multiple times.
Good luck and stand your ground.
Next step is small claims court.. Its really straight forward and they usually back down well before having to go to court. Its just not worth the bother for them.

In reply to Root1:
Thanks for posting.

Hmmm. good advice. but I was under the impression the small claims court costs £80 or so.

In reply to richparry:

Agreed, or that "they are not fit for purpose."

Thanks for posting.

In reply to ian caton:
I'd say its worth getting it repaired for free which is the least the manufacturer should do.

There's some good advice on this thread. Please let us know how it goes (maybe link this thread to TN in an email? There are lots of threads like this out there and its the reason I wouldn't buy a TN tent.)


EDIT - maybe email this thread to the marketing department at TN? - email address available on google.

In reply to bouldery bits:

Will do.

In reply to richparry:




My Quasar from 15 or 20 years ago has always been fine - I think that's a UK made one. An ex TN employee once posted on here, and came very close to saying they'd had a faulty batch of poles, which could account for some of their breakages, but I'd gathered that'd been sorted out.

In reply to ian caton:

Oh no.

I've just spent a small fortune on a Terra Nova Terra Firma which (I understand) is taking 60 days to be handmade in Derbyshire somewhere.

The design, fabric and stitching might be superb but if the poles are as crap as everyone is suggesting on this thread, I've been mugged!

In reply to Babika:


Don't worry.

In 25 years, my TNTF went thro two flysheets, the groundsheet was always crap, the inner zips went and the inner and outer eventually went into a bin in Moab last year.

However I do have a complete set of poles.

In reply to Babika:


I'm sure there are way more people out there who have had no problems with their tents, it's just threads like this attract those who have. Like I said my TN Solar 2 (bought in 2000 from Andy Kirkpatrick in Outside, Hathersage no less!) is still going strong. My kids slept in it, including one very gusty night on the beach in Mull, just last week - great tent.

In reply to Rick Graham:

A good news story. Good to hear.

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for posting. I wish there were more happy stories on the thread. I wonder if it is just guarantees that are the problem.

In reply to ian caton:

I've got a modern quasar and it seems ok. But, it's not of the same quality as my 20+ year old wild country tent. The build just seems flimsy, but its been fine so far. I guess there is a trade off between durability and weight saving.
My old tent had a bombproof neoprene coated nylon groundsheet, which although heavy, is still in great condition after years of use; its outlasted the flysheet. I doubt very much my quasar will last as long with its paper thin material.... but it may surprise me.

In reply to richparry:

I have ultra quaser roughly a decade old.

I have never had a snapped pole however I did have the following issues.

- Supplied pegs are next to useless
- Stitching around zip came apart very soon after purchase. TN sewed it back together and refunded postage.
- Inner touches the outer sometimes however well pitched the tent is. This can cause condensation to drip on you.
- Seam seals started looking past their best after only a few years by the time the tent was 5.5 years old it was leaking, this is a common fault on TN tents. After much wrangling TN offered to reseal them however on return they gave no guarantee of work and they just failed again nearly straight away. They then offered to sell me a new fly for £200 roughly £100 cheaper than retail. However I didn't consider that value and in the end I purchased a new quasar (not ultra) fly on here for £80.

In reply to ian caton:

I've got a Terra Nova tent which is a couple of years old and already poles have snapped on 2 occasions. Both times, it was the end of the pole that the ferrule goes into (the larger diameter end) that cracked/split. Terra Nova replaced free of charge the first time, and provided a chargeable replacement the second.

I think this is not helped, if when you are assembling or packing away the poles, you let the elastic "snap" the poles together. This can start off cracking in the pole ends. To protect a bit from this, I have wrapped some duct tape around the end of each section to give it some protection from happening again.

It's a good tent (design, fabric, weight) let down by its poles IMO.

In reply to Nick Wallis:

Sensible advice me thinks Nick.

State of play. Phoned today. You can only get to speak to the receptionist. Change of tune, they say it was damaged. Pole not in slot properly. I have tried my best with the undamaged pole to get the poles to connect, but not properly. They are in or they are out.

They say the pole is bent, but so is the other slightly. Examining the one I have closely, they seem terribly fragile.

I have looked on the web for third party replacements but no luck.

It seems to me they have loads of problems like this, it's their word against yours, and you are not going to go to court, so the guarantee is worthless.

In reply to ian caton:

I still think it should be the shop having this discussion with TN, not you. A long time ago I worked in a gear shop we were forever on the phone to firms trying to get jackets tested for water resistant or tents fixed etc. etc. If the shop won't accept your explanation, than your problem should be with them. If they do accept it, then they should be negotiating with TN almost for you. I'm pretty certain the law remains the same on these things.

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for input. In a perfect world I agree.

Just paid them £29 for repair. I reckon i can get that back on ebay, and get a tent from a reputable manufacturer.

They are a shoddy outfit, I wouldn't touch them again with a barge pole.

In reply to Nick Wallis:



In my tent instructions they tell you not to let the elastic 'snap' the poles together. From what (very) little I know of metal fatigue by absorbing it from a relative here and there, seems plausible that snapping them together would be the cause of the cracks at the pole ends. It's probably not Terra Nova's fault if they advise against doing this.

In reply to Timmd:

Curious, the only instructions I got were printed on the side of the tent bag (Currently with Terra Nova so I can't check), was that the same for you? I maybe missed something there.

In reply to ian caton:

My instructions were a several page leaflet/mini booklet type thing, with the advice in there somewhere, quite a long time ago now. Approx 16 years or perhaps a bit longer.

In reply to ian caton:

Further my last, my replacement Wild Country Zephyrus has gone back to the retailer after the taping on the main pole sleeves showing widespread peeling all over after three or four outings.
This time I'm after a refund rather than a replacement as I simply don't trust WC tents anymore.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:



I hate to break it to you, but MHW have a pretty bad reputation for customer service nowadays... I still have the Nightview, which has lasted years, and thankfully they still had a good reputation back when my pole snapped (repaired without the slightest quibble), but I'm dreading it happening again now!

In reply to ian caton:

I was looking to buy a Zephyros, or Laser, this year... Maybe the Akto is worth the extra after all.

In reply to ScottTalbot:

My Zephyros suffered a spontaneously snapping pole last week. It's about three years old, but has had only light use. I'd happily go back to using my old Argos Pro-Action, which seemed more solid, but I gave it away two weeks ago

Given the horrendous condensation problem I always seem to have in the Zephyros, I am in the market for something new.

In reply to Root1:

^ Yes, this. Sale of Goods Act.

TN have gone downhill quality wise, and the number of complaints of shoddy workmanship has gone up. In the distant past if one dodgy one cropped up, you'd have had it repaired and sent back no problem. Now there is so many out there made up poorly that TN have seemingly gone down the route of blaming their own crappy gear on wear and tear, otherwise they would be forever repairing kit.

I'm not going near another piece of their kit.

In reply to Bellie:
That's such a shame, my old Quasar is bombproof, and coped with 90mph winds (in a fairly sheltered spot) without a problem, no broken poles or anything.

In reply to Timmd:

My ultra quasar is 22 years old this year. still OK. Have replaced the groundsheet once. Poles all original. Pegs all good. Just starting to get issues with the inner and outer.

In reply to ian caton:

I have loads of poles for terra nova tents, what colours etc are you looking for? I also have some fabric patches for tents, red, yellow green and groundsheet black... Let me know if any can be of use.

In reply to ian caton:

It doesn't help the OP but in the interest of a balanced view I have nothing but good things to say about Wild Country/Terra Nova.
I have a Quasar which I got in about 1995ish. It's used infrequently but a few years ago the material started coming away from one of the zips on the inner without any other wear and tear on the rest of the tent. I contacted Wild Country/Terra Nova and asked about having it repaired. The asked if I had the receipt and miraculously I found the original receipt from Cotswold. I returned it via Cotswold and it was repaired FOC (I would have been happy to have paid for the repair) they did a fantastic job and stitched new panels into both ends (although only one end was damaged.

I have had one of my original poles start to crack but I think this began because someone when helping me erect the tent hadn't ensured they were all fully connected. I found some spares on eBay (some of which were also cracked) but enabled me to replace my damaged one and keep a couple of spares.

So, cracking of poles is not completely uncommon but I've not known one completely let go without warning.

In reply to crice:

...a few years ago...

Seems to be the key phrase.

In reply to kerry cooper:

Thanks for posting. Good to know if I need another.

In reply to ian caton:

You know that TN do a tent exchange thing? Send in the old one and get 30% off a new one.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Terra Nova didn't tell me that. But it would be a new one of theirs, so not much point unfortunately.
Thanks for letting me know.

In reply to nikkormat:

New pole for my Zephyros 2 will be £50 + £3.95 p&p. No thanks. Next tent will be a Jurek, made here in Czech Republic, with an excellent reputation for customer service.