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Looking at getting an assisted break device for some added security and for abseils.
Edelrid Mega Jul - like the look of this one it looks more like an ATC
Mammut Smart - Looks bulky as the metal end extends quite far out and dont fancy this on my harness.
Climbing Tech Click up - Looks nice but more expensive and odd shape / bulky
Any users tried these or others?
Edelrid Mega Jul - like the look of this one it looks more like an ATC
Mammut Smart - Looks bulky as the metal end extends quite far out and dont fancy this on my harness.
Climbing Tech Click up - Looks nice but more expensive and odd shape / bulky
Any users tried these or others?
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In reply to MrWayne:
Edelrid Mega Jul - haven't even seen one of these, but reviews make them sound a bit marmite - some people have trouble with them grabbing; others think they're great
Mammut Smart - I have one of these; it's the red two-rope version and my old 11mm sport rope gets very stuck in it. In theory I think it's great, and maybe i'll use it with two ropes for trad one day.
Climbing Tech Click up - I have a partner who uses this, and it seems very good
Grigri - works really really well in my experience, especially if you like to smoke, chat or snapchat while you're belaying
Edelrid Mega Jul - haven't even seen one of these, but reviews make them sound a bit marmite - some people have trouble with them grabbing; others think they're great
Mammut Smart - I have one of these; it's the red two-rope version and my old 11mm sport rope gets very stuck in it. In theory I think it's great, and maybe i'll use it with two ropes for trad one day.
Climbing Tech Click up - I have a partner who uses this, and it seems very good
Grigri - works really really well in my experience, especially if you like to smoke, chat or snapchat while you're belaying
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In reply to MrWayne:
You could try the Jul2 for single rope. I've had the Mega Jul for a few weeks and am still getting used to the feeding and lowering, as it's a bit bitey! If the rope'a at slightly the wrong angle, it won't feed.
I've used the Smart briefly and didn't notice this problem, so that may be something to consider.
You could try the Jul2 for single rope. I've had the Mega Jul for a few weeks and am still getting used to the feeding and lowering, as it's a bit bitey! If the rope'a at slightly the wrong angle, it won't feed.
I've used the Smart briefly and didn't notice this problem, so that may be something to consider.
In reply to MrWayne:
Best value, which addresses your specific question is the Mammut Smart. I've had one for several years but I wouldn't us it on multi pitch, preferring the DMM Pivot for that. I've just replaced it with a Click-up which works just like a standard belay plate but again I would not use it for multi pitch.. I've no complaints with the Smart it's just getting a little worn and needed replacement so I thought I would try a change. The one that would meet your criteria and would work with both single and double is the Mega Jule but I have heard mixed reports so I prefer to stick with what I consider to be the best for the given situation i.e. Click-up/Smart singles, DMM pivot for doubles. Up to now I really like the Click-up. I have owned a GriGri but I have never been a big fan as it requires you to change your belay style.
Hope that helps
Al
Best value, which addresses your specific question is the Mammut Smart. I've had one for several years but I wouldn't us it on multi pitch, preferring the DMM Pivot for that. I've just replaced it with a Click-up which works just like a standard belay plate but again I would not use it for multi pitch.. I've no complaints with the Smart it's just getting a little worn and needed replacement so I thought I would try a change. The one that would meet your criteria and would work with both single and double is the Mega Jule but I have heard mixed reports so I prefer to stick with what I consider to be the best for the given situation i.e. Click-up/Smart singles, DMM pivot for doubles. Up to now I really like the Click-up. I have owned a GriGri but I have never been a big fan as it requires you to change your belay style.
Hope that helps
Al
Post edited at 12:15
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In reply to MrWayne:
My opinion is that it is very hard to know what a good choice will be because of the variable performance of the devices.
You'll need the double-rope versions if you are going to abseil (unless you are speaking of single-rope abseils).
You have to decide whether you want to have the assisted braking feature function as an abseil back-up or not. It isn't clear how reliable these devices are for backing up rappels. If you are going to count on it, better test it out in safe conditions. Make sure that you check stopping performance at the very end of the abseil when there is very little rope weight to activate braking.
Rope type and diameter matters; none of the devices work well with thicker ropes, and the assisted braking features deteriorate with thin ropes and some carabiners.
When people say such-and-such a device is wonderful, make sure that your intended use involves the same ropes and carabiners, otherwise the recommendation may not mean much. (And even so, different climbers subject their gear to very different types of challenges.) Both the MegaJul and the Alpine Smart have arcane failure modes that might not be noticed by some. The Alpine Up has the few if any reported failure modes, but it seems a lot less popular and so may not have gotten as much testing.
Personally, I've found the CT Alpine Up (with the supplied carabiner) to be excellent for all kinds of climbing (and abseiling), including lots of multipitch. But I do almost everything outside with Mammut Genesis 8.5mm half ropes. The Alpine Up jams completely with thick fuzzy gym ropes---I either use a Grigri (when forced to) or an ordinary plate in the gym. I can't speak to the performance of the UP with bigger diameter single ropes, although I do have friends who use it with 9.8 singles and are enthusiastic.
> Looking at getting an assisted break device for some added security and for abseils.
My opinion is that it is very hard to know what a good choice will be because of the variable performance of the devices.
You'll need the double-rope versions if you are going to abseil (unless you are speaking of single-rope abseils).
You have to decide whether you want to have the assisted braking feature function as an abseil back-up or not. It isn't clear how reliable these devices are for backing up rappels. If you are going to count on it, better test it out in safe conditions. Make sure that you check stopping performance at the very end of the abseil when there is very little rope weight to activate braking.
Rope type and diameter matters; none of the devices work well with thicker ropes, and the assisted braking features deteriorate with thin ropes and some carabiners.
When people say such-and-such a device is wonderful, make sure that your intended use involves the same ropes and carabiners, otherwise the recommendation may not mean much. (And even so, different climbers subject their gear to very different types of challenges.) Both the MegaJul and the Alpine Smart have arcane failure modes that might not be noticed by some. The Alpine Up has the few if any reported failure modes, but it seems a lot less popular and so may not have gotten as much testing.
Personally, I've found the CT Alpine Up (with the supplied carabiner) to be excellent for all kinds of climbing (and abseiling), including lots of multipitch. But I do almost everything outside with Mammut Genesis 8.5mm half ropes. The Alpine Up jams completely with thick fuzzy gym ropes---I either use a Grigri (when forced to) or an ordinary plate in the gym. I can't speak to the performance of the UP with bigger diameter single ropes, although I do have friends who use it with 9.8 singles and are enthusiastic.
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In reply to MrWayne:
I've got the Megajul. Yes it bites but that's what it's supposed to do. If you can't lower off smoothly you aren't using it properly. Two people who have used mine have gone and bought their own.
I've got the Megajul. Yes it bites but that's what it's supposed to do. If you can't lower off smoothly you aren't using it properly. Two people who have used mine have gone and bought their own.
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In reply to radddogg:
I replaced my grigri with a Mega Jul and have had the same experience as you. Out of 3 friends 2 of them have bought one and use it as much as I use mine. No issues feeding as quickly as a standard atc or lowering just as quick. Never had it fail to lock or cause any issues.
I replaced my grigri with a Mega Jul and have had the same experience as you. Out of 3 friends 2 of them have bought one and use it as much as I use mine. No issues feeding as quickly as a standard atc or lowering just as quick. Never had it fail to lock or cause any issues.
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In reply to MrWayne:
As Humtydumpty says, a GriGri. I own and have tested all the alternatives and for single-rope sport climbing the GriGri is still the best.
For best value, all the others are worn out and have destroyed maybe 20 karabiners before a GriGri starts to get a bit tired. Expect 20+ years from a GriGri, 2 to 3 from the others and maybe one karabiner per year.
Oh, and by the way, only the GriGri, Trango Cinch, Camp Matik and Edelrid Eddy are certified as manual assisted braking, all the rest fail the certification test and are simply manual braking devices. Outside of the certification tests we know that many rather than assisting braking can actually give less braking effect than a conventional device.
The best of "the others" when it comes to helping stop a falling climber is the CT ClickUp but for my tastes it was too rope selective, hard to lower sometimes and crap for abseiling.
As Humtydumpty says, a GriGri. I own and have tested all the alternatives and for single-rope sport climbing the GriGri is still the best.
For best value, all the others are worn out and have destroyed maybe 20 karabiners before a GriGri starts to get a bit tired. Expect 20+ years from a GriGri, 2 to 3 from the others and maybe one karabiner per year.
Oh, and by the way, only the GriGri, Trango Cinch, Camp Matik and Edelrid Eddy are certified as manual assisted braking, all the rest fail the certification test and are simply manual braking devices. Outside of the certification tests we know that many rather than assisting braking can actually give less braking effect than a conventional device.
The best of "the others" when it comes to helping stop a falling climber is the CT ClickUp but for my tastes it was too rope selective, hard to lower sometimes and crap for abseiling.
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In reply to MrWayne:
Second-hand original GriGri. Pretty indestructible and they seem to be selling for £20 or not much more.
> Best value assisted break belay?
Second-hand original GriGri. Pretty indestructible and they seem to be selling for £20 or not much more.
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In reply to jimtitt:
I second GriGri2 choice. It's not bulky and Petzl do a krab to go with it to 'keep the rope in correct position' - can't recall what it's called but it has a snap clip on the side. Recently taught my new regular belayer to top rope with one; see how it goes with 'pushing' the rope through for when I'm leading. They are new to lead belaying so that's a few sessions off yet; but - they liked the GriGri.
I've no complaints on mine but the click up did look tempting.
I second GriGri2 choice. It's not bulky and Petzl do a krab to go with it to 'keep the rope in correct position' - can't recall what it's called but it has a snap clip on the side. Recently taught my new regular belayer to top rope with one; see how it goes with 'pushing' the rope through for when I'm leading. They are new to lead belaying so that's a few sessions off yet; but - they liked the GriGri.
I've no complaints on mine but the click up did look tempting.
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In reply to jimtitt:
My click up seems to be more rope tolerant than my mates GriGri so I'm not convinced that this applies across the board.
My click up seems to be more rope tolerant than my mates GriGri so I'm not convinced that this applies across the board.
Post edited at 21:40
In reply to GridNorth:
My GriGri doesn´t seem to notice whether I use a 9.6, a 9.8, a 10mm or a completely shagged, furry 10.2 or even my nasty 10mm static covered in glue.
My ClickUp goes from a reasonably acceptable performer to an absolute dog.
My GriGri doesn´t seem to notice whether I use a 9.6, a 9.8, a 10mm or a completely shagged, furry 10.2 or even my nasty 10mm static covered in glue.
My ClickUp goes from a reasonably acceptable performer to an absolute dog.
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In reply to jimtitt:
Weird as I've been using megajul for a year and there is no obvious wear on the crab
Again weird as my megajul offers such excellent braking that I consider it safe for hands off belaying and use mine for "shunting"
> For best value, all the others are worn out and have destroyed maybe 20 karabiners before a GriGri starts to get a bit tired. Expect 20+ years from a GriGri, 2 to 3 from the others and maybe one karabiner per year.
Weird as I've been using megajul for a year and there is no obvious wear on the crab
> Oh, and by the way, only the GriGri, Trango Cinch, Camp Matik and Edelrid Eddy are certified as manual assisted braking, all the rest fail the certification test and are simply manual braking devices. Outside of the certification tests we know that many rather than assisting braking can actually give less braking effect than a conventional device.
Again weird as my megajul offers such excellent braking that I consider it safe for hands off belaying and use mine for "shunting"
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In reply to radddogg:
I´ve got an original CT hard anodised karabiner that has worn through and started to damage the rope after a year and a half moderate use. The Smart is notorious for eating karabiners and all the others using this design have the same problem. The MegaJul in particular cuts into the outside of the karabiner as well.
That´s fine, it´s your life (or your climbing partners). It doesn´t change the fact that it fails the manual assisted braking test miserably and offers less braking power at high forces compared to many conventional devices.
I´ve got an original CT hard anodised karabiner that has worn through and started to damage the rope after a year and a half moderate use. The Smart is notorious for eating karabiners and all the others using this design have the same problem. The MegaJul in particular cuts into the outside of the karabiner as well.
> Again weird as my megajul offers such excellent braking that I consider it safe for hands off belaying and use mine for "shunting"
That´s fine, it´s your life (or your climbing partners). It doesn´t change the fact that it fails the manual assisted braking test miserably and offers less braking power at high forces compared to many conventional devices.
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In reply to jimtitt:
Admittedly my Click-up is new so time may tell. I agree about the Smart gouging Karabiners but it took a couple of years with mine so I don't see it as a huge problem.
Admittedly my Click-up is new so time may tell. I agree about the Smart gouging Karabiners but it took a couple of years with mine so I don't see it as a huge problem.
In reply to MrWayne:
Listen to Jimtit he knows what he's talking about.....
Personally I'd just get an ATC XP, unless you want the guide functionality I'd get the standard plate as its a little nicer to use as well as being lighter (its less grabby and performs a little better without the ridge down the middle of the bottom of the plate on the guide).
Listen to Jimtit he knows what he's talking about.....
Personally I'd just get an ATC XP, unless you want the guide functionality I'd get the standard plate as its a little nicer to use as well as being lighter (its less grabby and performs a little better without the ridge down the middle of the bottom of the plate on the guide).
Post edited at 09:58
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Agreed but if you just don't get on with the GriGri you have to think for yourself.
The OP specifically stated that he wanted an assisted device.
Al
> Listen to Jimtit he knows what he's talking about.....
Agreed but if you just don't get on with the GriGri you have to think for yourself.
The OP specifically stated that he wanted an assisted device.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
My point is that maybe an assisted device isn't providing added security despite the OP was thinking it would.
My point is that maybe an assisted device isn't providing added security despite the OP was thinking it would.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Personally I think an assisted device of any flavour does give added security especially indoors. I'm quite paranoid about it in fact. I will climb in a 3 and I will climb with anyone using a standard plate but I won't climb in a 3 with someone using a none assisted braking device. It's too easy to get distracted indoors. I acknowledge it's not foolproof but if the belayer is not paying attention you do at least get a second chance.
Al
Personally I think an assisted device of any flavour does give added security especially indoors. I'm quite paranoid about it in fact. I will climb in a 3 and I will climb with anyone using a standard plate but I won't climb in a 3 with someone using a none assisted braking device. It's too easy to get distracted indoors. I acknowledge it's not foolproof but if the belayer is not paying attention you do at least get a second chance.
Al
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In reply to MrWayne:
Been very impressed with the Click-up for sport climbing, much safer than a grigri IMHO
Not sure whether it would be useful in abseiling - I have heard of people abbing on a grigri, but it's not something I'd be comfortable with
Been very impressed with the Click-up for sport climbing, much safer than a grigri IMHO
Not sure whether it would be useful in abseiling - I have heard of people abbing on a grigri, but it's not something I'd be comfortable with
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In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Thanks good suggestion. I'm worried about buying a used grigri though, I've never bought used climbing gear for obvious safety fears?
Thanks good suggestion. I'm worried about buying a used grigri though, I've never bought used climbing gear for obvious safety fears?
In reply to MrWayne:
I wouldn't claim it's safer but the fact that you don't have to change your belaying technique to use it counts in it's favour for me.
I wouldn't claim it's safer but the fact that you don't have to change your belaying technique to use it counts in it's favour for me.
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In reply to MrWayne:
I think alot depends on the rope you're using. Some belay devises will feel better with different ropes (with the range they're rated for). For example, I expect a lot of people that find the megajule doesn't feed smoothly are using a thickish rope, and those that find it doesn't catch securely enough are using thinner ropes.
I think alot depends on the rope you're using. Some belay devises will feel better with different ropes (with the range they're rated for). For example, I expect a lot of people that find the megajule doesn't feed smoothly are using a thickish rope, and those that find it doesn't catch securely enough are using thinner ropes.
In reply to jimtitt:
Do you have a link to the report, I couldn't find it cheers
> That´s fine, it´s your life (or your climbing partners). It doesn´t change the fact that it fails the manual assisted braking test miserably and offers less braking power at high forces compared to many conventional devices.
Do you have a link to the report, I couldn't find it cheers
In reply to radddogg:
I'd be interested to see the report, but don't doubt it exists. There's a reason Edelrid don't recommend it for hands off.
> Do you have a link to the report, I couldn't find it cheers
I'd be interested to see the report, but don't doubt it exists. There's a reason Edelrid don't recommend it for hands off.
In reply to ScottTalbot:
Hence I'd like to see it. Using it permanently I have total confidence in it hands free so I'd I really need to be worried I want to know about it
It's worth pointing out that the megajul does not rely on any moving parts to perform its auto block function like the grigri meaning the function is repeatable and reliable.
> I'd be interested to see the report, but don't doubt it exists. There's a reason Edelrid don't recommend it for hands off.
Hence I'd like to see it. Using it permanently I have total confidence in it hands free so I'd I really need to be worried I want to know about it
It's worth pointing out that the megajul does not rely on any moving parts to perform its auto block function like the grigri meaning the function is repeatable and reliable.
Post edited at 22:49
In reply to radddogg:
I doubt there´ s a report to read that it fails the certifiction test, Edelrid wouldn´ t be stupid enough to put it for testing in the first place. Anyone who knows how the test is performed can see it will fail immediately.
As to it functioning hands-off (in at least some situations) we watched it fail at a launch demonstration at Outdoor a few years ago and also the DAV have tested various climbing wall scenarios such as lead falls and top-roping falls with a number of the commmon devices of this kind including the MegaJul. The results don´ t give confidence.
That the "assisted braking" is less than one would hope or believe from the advertising has been extensively studied by myself, confirmed by Cambridge University in research for the BMC and remarked upon by the DAV.
I doubt there´ s a report to read that it fails the certifiction test, Edelrid wouldn´ t be stupid enough to put it for testing in the first place. Anyone who knows how the test is performed can see it will fail immediately.
As to it functioning hands-off (in at least some situations) we watched it fail at a launch demonstration at Outdoor a few years ago and also the DAV have tested various climbing wall scenarios such as lead falls and top-roping falls with a number of the commmon devices of this kind including the MegaJul. The results don´ t give confidence.
That the "assisted braking" is less than one would hope or believe from the advertising has been extensively studied by myself, confirmed by Cambridge University in research for the BMC and remarked upon by the DAV.
In reply to radddogg:
> It's worth pointing out that the megajul does not rely on any moving parts to perform its auto block function like the grigri meaning the function is repeatable and reliable.
The MegaJul HAS moving parts, exactly the same number as a GriGri, Eddy or whatever, the body and the karabiner. If the body cannot move onto the karabiner the braking function is compromised, this is a well known failure mode.In reply to jimtitt:
What results??? I'm asking you for the report(s) you're quoting to say that the megajul completely fails as an assisted braking device.
> The results don´ t give confidence.
What results??? I'm asking you for the report(s) you're quoting to say that the megajul completely fails as an assisted braking device.
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In reply to jimtitt:
This is down to user error. The only thing that would cause this would be the use of the wrong type of carabiner as instructed in the manual
http://www.edelrid.de/out/documents/downloads/GAL_MicroMega_Jul.pdf
> The MegaJul HAS moving parts, exactly the same number as a GriGri, Eddy or whatever, the body and the karabiner. If the body cannot move onto the karabiner the braking function is compromised, this is a well known failure mode.
This is down to user error. The only thing that would cause this would be the use of the wrong type of carabiner as instructed in the manual
http://www.edelrid.de/out/documents/downloads/GAL_MicroMega_Jul.pdf
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In reply to jimtitt:
Hi, could you post a link to the Cambrge research and/or your own. Or explain a bit about it. I've a microjule which seems to work well, but presumably has the same problems as the megajule.
Hi, could you post a link to the Cambrge research and/or your own. Or explain a bit about it. I've a microjule which seems to work well, but presumably has the same problems as the megajule.
In reply to radddogg:
You are mixing two things together which I carefully seperated by writing two different paragraphs.
1) The MegaJul and all it´s relatives would not pass the certification for a "manual assisted locking" device (EN15151-1) which the Edelrid Eddy does for example. Therefore the MegaJul is certified as a manual braking device (EN15151-2). This is clearly stated on the front of the user instructions:- "Braking Device according to EN15151-2 Type 2". The type 2 indicates it has only one friction level.
As I said before there won´´ t be a report of it´ s failing since it is extremely unlikely edelrid would waste time and money testing something they know will fail. The test reports are anyway private.
Used hands-off in other scenarios such as top-roping has been covered by the DAV and the reports are published in either Panorama or Bergsteigen which are available online (in German).
> What results??? I'm asking you for the report(s) you're quoting to say that the megajul completely fails as an assisted braking device.
You are mixing two things together which I carefully seperated by writing two different paragraphs.
1) The MegaJul and all it´s relatives would not pass the certification for a "manual assisted locking" device (EN15151-1) which the Edelrid Eddy does for example. Therefore the MegaJul is certified as a manual braking device (EN15151-2). This is clearly stated on the front of the user instructions:- "Braking Device according to EN15151-2 Type 2". The type 2 indicates it has only one friction level.
As I said before there won´´ t be a report of it´ s failing since it is extremely unlikely edelrid would waste time and money testing something they know will fail. The test reports are anyway private.
Used hands-off in other scenarios such as top-roping has been covered by the DAV and the reports are published in either Panorama or Bergsteigen which are available online (in German).
In reply to radddogg:
Your assertion that the MegaJul has no moving parts is still incorrect. There is at least one other way the body can be prevented from moving which is not covered by the instructions.
> This is down to user error. The only thing that would cause this would be the use of the wrong type of carabiner as instructed in the manual
Your assertion that the MegaJul has no moving parts is still incorrect. There is at least one other way the body can be prevented from moving which is not covered by the instructions.
In reply to Donald82:
Nobody has tested the braking function of the MicroJul to my knowledge, it´s a somewhat specialised device and I personally don´ t own any suitable ropes and have no interest in buying any.
As far as I know the cambridge results have only been released to members of the bMC technical commitee, whether they will be published as part of a thesis I don´t know but knowing academia this could take some time!
My testing is widely covered in the relevant thread on Mountain Project which I´ m sure soemone can provide a link to. There are previous threads on UKC about this but as we can´ t embed graphs or tables in posts here you have to go to another forum for the information.
Nobody has tested the braking function of the MicroJul to my knowledge, it´s a somewhat specialised device and I personally don´ t own any suitable ropes and have no interest in buying any.
As far as I know the cambridge results have only been released to members of the bMC technical commitee, whether they will be published as part of a thesis I don´t know but knowing academia this could take some time!
My testing is widely covered in the relevant thread on Mountain Project which I´ m sure soemone can provide a link to. There are previous threads on UKC about this but as we can´ t embed graphs or tables in posts here you have to go to another forum for the information.
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In reply to GridNorth:
If I climbed with people that were such poor belayers I wouldn't trust them with any belay device!
> Personally I think an assisted device of any flavour does give added security especially indoors. I'm quite paranoid about it in fact. I will climb in a 3 and I will climb with anyone using a standard plate but I won't climb in a 3 with someone using a none assisted braking device. It's too easy to get distracted indoors. I acknowledge it's not foolproof but if the belayer is not paying attention you do at least get a second chance.
> Al
If I climbed with people that were such poor belayers I wouldn't trust them with any belay device!
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In reply to timjones:
I agree but I'm not sure I believe anyone who claimed that they had NEVER been distracted, especially at a climbing wall.
To jimtitt: Would you care to expand on your statement that a Megajule does have moving parts.
I think this may be a language issue. When someone says "no moving parts" I take that to mean there is nothing within the structure of the device that moves but I think you must be referring to movement of the device itself within the set up i.e. the device, the rope, the karabiner, the harness and the belayer. Clearly some devices like the Smart meet my definition rather than yours.
Al
I agree but I'm not sure I believe anyone who claimed that they had NEVER been distracted, especially at a climbing wall.
To jimtitt: Would you care to expand on your statement that a Megajule does have moving parts.
I think this may be a language issue. When someone says "no moving parts" I take that to mean there is nothing within the structure of the device that moves but I think you must be referring to movement of the device itself within the set up i.e. the device, the rope, the karabiner, the harness and the belayer. Clearly some devices like the Smart meet my definition rather than yours.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
A Megajul/Smart whatever has no moving parts. In this case it has absolutely no function as a belay device. The customer adds another part (the karabiner) to make the device function and as a belay device it has then two parts, one of which moves against the other.
My MegaJul came as a set, in the packaging there were two parts and they move relative to each other. As a functional belay device it has moving parts.
A Megajul/Smart whatever has no moving parts. In this case it has absolutely no function as a belay device. The customer adds another part (the karabiner) to make the device function and as a belay device it has then two parts, one of which moves against the other.
My MegaJul came as a set, in the packaging there were two parts and they move relative to each other. As a functional belay device it has moving parts.
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In reply to Donald82:
here is the UIAA testing regime for the EN standards, no individual results of course.
A manufacturer knows if they have designed a device to fit a locking or not braking device, so it's not as if the non-lockers have failed the test, rather that they weren't designed to meet it.
http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/Safety/Standards/Safety-Standards/UIAA_1...
here is the UIAA testing regime for the EN standards, no individual results of course.
A manufacturer knows if they have designed a device to fit a locking or not braking device, so it's not as if the non-lockers have failed the test, rather that they weren't designed to meet it.
http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/Safety/Standards/Safety-Standards/UIAA_1...
In reply to jimtitt:
Thanks for clearing that up. It just goes to show how difficult language can be on a forum although on re-reading I see that you did mention the other components that went towards making up the moving parts. Unfortunately to me and apparently others the Smart/Megajule etc. are the device and the karabiner is another device.
Al
Thanks for clearing that up. It just goes to show how difficult language can be on a forum although on re-reading I see that you did mention the other components that went towards making up the moving parts. Unfortunately to me and apparently others the Smart/Megajule etc. are the device and the karabiner is another device.
Al
In reply to MrWayne:
Just a concern that the gri-gri is not foolproof or instinctive (or maybe instinct-proof).
Both devices will lock if you let go - this is good - and stay locked - so you can relax whilst your mate takes a rest.
The problem I found with a gri-gri (and it has been five years since I've used one) is that if you were trying to pay-out quickly, and put your thumb over it to facilitate this, it becomes dangerous if the climber falls. Very little thumb pressure could produce a very dramatic loss of friction in the rope. When I made this mistake my mate only fell an extra 5 or 10 foot on a very overhanging route - nothing more than a questioning look followed by a quote from Stone Monkey - but if I had gripped rather than released he would have decked.
Maybe it's because I'm so used to using a belay plate (when I started they were still called Sticht plates) but the click-up seems to me to be both instinctive and foolproof.
> Why do you say the click-up is safer than a grigri?
Just a concern that the gri-gri is not foolproof or instinctive (or maybe instinct-proof).
Both devices will lock if you let go - this is good - and stay locked - so you can relax whilst your mate takes a rest.
The problem I found with a gri-gri (and it has been five years since I've used one) is that if you were trying to pay-out quickly, and put your thumb over it to facilitate this, it becomes dangerous if the climber falls. Very little thumb pressure could produce a very dramatic loss of friction in the rope. When I made this mistake my mate only fell an extra 5 or 10 foot on a very overhanging route - nothing more than a questioning look followed by a quote from Stone Monkey - but if I had gripped rather than released he would have decked.
Maybe it's because I'm so used to using a belay plate (when I started they were still called Sticht plates) but the click-up seems to me to be both instinctive and foolproof.
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In reply to GridNorth:
Distracted or not if you're a safe belayer you should by default not do anything that is inherently dangerous if your attention drifts. If you are letting go of the rope because you are distracted then you shouldn't be belaying anyone.
> I agree but I'm not sure I believe anyone who claimed that they had NEVER been distracted, especially at a climbing wall.
Distracted or not if you're a safe belayer you should by default not do anything that is inherently dangerous if your attention drifts. If you are letting go of the rope because you are distracted then you shouldn't be belaying anyone.
In reply to MrWayne:
Have all three and a grigri, use the mega jul for everything except fat furry climbing wall ropes , then use any one of a few standard tube devices.
Edelrid recommend reversing the device and backing up with a prussic. I have abseiled with it "round the right way" and hung hands free, bit unnerving (could be psychological), wouldn't want to bounce about on it (but why would you), if hanging around retrieving gear take a bight of the dead rope and put a knot in it. Never done a long abseil with it but been told that if used "right way round" by the time you've done 50m your hand's knackered holding it in the open position.
Sorry if you've heard this all already, but couldn't be bothered reading loads of posts on paying attention when you're belaying.
NB. PAY ATTENTION WHEN YOU'RE BELAYING AND DON'T RELY ON TECHNOLOGY OR YOU'LL KILL SOME POOR BUGGER.
Have all three and a grigri, use the mega jul for everything except fat furry climbing wall ropes , then use any one of a few standard tube devices.
Edelrid recommend reversing the device and backing up with a prussic. I have abseiled with it "round the right way" and hung hands free, bit unnerving (could be psychological), wouldn't want to bounce about on it (but why would you), if hanging around retrieving gear take a bight of the dead rope and put a knot in it. Never done a long abseil with it but been told that if used "right way round" by the time you've done 50m your hand's knackered holding it in the open position.
Sorry if you've heard this all already, but couldn't be bothered reading loads of posts on paying attention when you're belaying.
NB. PAY ATTENTION WHEN YOU'RE BELAYING AND DON'T RELY ON TECHNOLOGY OR YOU'LL KILL SOME POOR BUGGER.
Post edited at 21:36
In reply to jimtitt:
Jim's graphs appear in the Great Megajul Smackdown on MP at http://www.mountainproject.com/v/edelrid-megajul-belay-device/109133730__1 . There are ten pages of "commentary," most of it dealing with a particularly enthusiastic Megajul fanboy whose ability to maintain his "my mind is made up, please don't confuse me with the facts" stance is, in its own way, heroic.
If you don't savor classic internet trollage, I think you can find all or most of Jim's graphs on pages 4, 5, 6, 7 (3 graphs collected), and 8.
> My testing is widely covered in the relevant thread on Mountain Project which I´ m sure soemone can provide a link to. There are previous threads on UKC about this but as we can´ t embed graphs or tables in posts here you have to go to another forum for the information.
Jim's graphs appear in the Great Megajul Smackdown on MP at http://www.mountainproject.com/v/edelrid-megajul-belay-device/109133730__1 . There are ten pages of "commentary," most of it dealing with a particularly enthusiastic Megajul fanboy whose ability to maintain his "my mind is made up, please don't confuse me with the facts" stance is, in its own way, heroic.
If you don't savor classic internet trollage, I think you can find all or most of Jim's graphs on pages 4, 5, 6, 7 (3 graphs collected), and 8.
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In reply to Rgold: despite your enthusiasm for the smackdown would you care to comment on the usability of the megajul if you're using a 'normal' rope, say a 9,5 mm single. Much of that thread is concerned with unusually thin rope thicknesses
In reply to wbo:
Hence the birth of the MicroJul.
> despite your enthusiasm for the smackdown would you care to comment on the usability of the megajul if you're using a 'normal' rope, say a 9,5 mm single. Much of that thread is concerned with unusually thin rope thicknesses
Hence the birth of the MicroJul.
In reply to wbo:
Irrespective of whether the MegaJul is inappropriate for use with certain (actually quite common) rope sizes, it's IMHO god awful to use for the following reasons:
belaying is pretty jerky unless you are holding the loop, in which case one of your hands is permanently on the belay plate which I plainly don't like as your less manoeuvrable, both in paying out slack and in your physical location
abseiling is rubbish
its stainless steel so it trashes your aluminium carabiners - they recommend using it with a steel carabiner - great, so all that weight loss was for nowt. Even if you carry a steel carabiner, as soon as you use it in magic plate mode, you will trash a carabiner, unless you carry two steel carabiners, which you're not going to.
when you get to the bottom of your extremely crap jerky abseil and you have a knackered thumb from releasing the darned thing, you then burn (and I do mean burn) yourself on the plate as stainless steel retains heat much more than aluminium, so with any luck you drop the thing.
then there's the small matter of whether it will even catch a large factor 2 fall.
I have an Alpine up, and despite looks I find it far and away the best autolocker/assisted brake I've used, out of the grigri 1, mugajul, WC SRC, Metolius BRD...
Irrespective of whether the MegaJul is inappropriate for use with certain (actually quite common) rope sizes, it's IMHO god awful to use for the following reasons:
belaying is pretty jerky unless you are holding the loop, in which case one of your hands is permanently on the belay plate which I plainly don't like as your less manoeuvrable, both in paying out slack and in your physical location
abseiling is rubbish
its stainless steel so it trashes your aluminium carabiners - they recommend using it with a steel carabiner - great, so all that weight loss was for nowt. Even if you carry a steel carabiner, as soon as you use it in magic plate mode, you will trash a carabiner, unless you carry two steel carabiners, which you're not going to.
when you get to the bottom of your extremely crap jerky abseil and you have a knackered thumb from releasing the darned thing, you then burn (and I do mean burn) yourself on the plate as stainless steel retains heat much more than aluminium, so with any luck you drop the thing.
then there's the small matter of whether it will even catch a large factor 2 fall.
I have an Alpine up, and despite looks I find it far and away the best autolocker/assisted brake I've used, out of the grigri 1, mugajul, WC SRC, Metolius BRD...
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In reply to beardy mike:
Poor technique
Using it wrong, it has a hole for a carabiner to be used as a lever for abseiling. I've used with and without; with its fine, without its jerky
Said before, it's not done any alarming damage in over a year of use for me
You really don't like this device do you. Every friction belay device causes heat. I wouldn't say it's any worse with this device.
Is that a question? What evidence is there that it won't?
Ahh, Alpine fanboy. Each to their own.
> belaying is pretty jerky unless you are holding the loop, in which case one of your hands is permanently on the belay plate which I plainly don't like as your less manoeuvrable, both in paying out slack and in your physical location
Poor technique
> abseiling is rubbish
Using it wrong, it has a hole for a carabiner to be used as a lever for abseiling. I've used with and without; with its fine, without its jerky
> its stainless steel so it trashes your aluminium carabiners - they recommend using it with a steel carabiner - great, so all that weight loss was for nowt. Even if you carry a steel carabiner, as soon as you use it in magic plate mode, you will trash a carabiner, unless you carry two steel carabiners, which you're not going to.
Said before, it's not done any alarming damage in over a year of use for me
> when you get to the bottom of your extremely crap jerky abseil and you have a knackered thumb from releasing the darned thing, you then burn (and I do mean burn) yourself on the plate as stainless steel retains heat much more than aluminium, so with any luck you drop the thing.
You really don't like this device do you. Every friction belay device causes heat. I wouldn't say it's any worse with this device.
> then there's the small matter of whether it will even catch a large factor 2 fall.
Is that a question? What evidence is there that it won't?
> I have an Alpine up, and despite looks I find it far and away the best autolocker/assisted brake I've used, out of the grigri 1, mugajul, WC SRC, Metolius BRD...
Ahh, Alpine fanboy. Each to their own.
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In reply to radddogg:
The guy asked for an opinion. However, it is NOT an opinion that your hand is basically tied to the belay plate meaning that you only have one hand to manoever your rope, and inhibits your movement in general - that has nothing to do with technique.
As for damage, I used one for one day using a brand new skylotec hms and it cut deep grooves after lowering a partner using magic plate mode.
Yes every belay plate creates heat. Stainless retains heat. Look it up. That is not an opinion either, rather scientific fact. Whilst I haven't hadburns I know a chap who has and who stopped using it because of this.
The test results conducted by Jim which are pretty much the only side by side testing that's been done and is entirely independent show that for small (but not uncommon) sizes for which the device is rated by the manufacturer, in a factor 2 fall, the device is inadequate. Jim is pretty much one of the foremost experts in that field. I doubt you'd find someone more qualified to produce such results.
As for being an alpine fanboy, sorry, that is my opinion, based on extensive use, like yours of the Megajul. Sorry, I shall remember not to have an opinion next time.
The guy asked for an opinion. However, it is NOT an opinion that your hand is basically tied to the belay plate meaning that you only have one hand to manoever your rope, and inhibits your movement in general - that has nothing to do with technique.
As for damage, I used one for one day using a brand new skylotec hms and it cut deep grooves after lowering a partner using magic plate mode.
Yes every belay plate creates heat. Stainless retains heat. Look it up. That is not an opinion either, rather scientific fact. Whilst I haven't hadburns I know a chap who has and who stopped using it because of this.
The test results conducted by Jim which are pretty much the only side by side testing that's been done and is entirely independent show that for small (but not uncommon) sizes for which the device is rated by the manufacturer, in a factor 2 fall, the device is inadequate. Jim is pretty much one of the foremost experts in that field. I doubt you'd find someone more qualified to produce such results.
As for being an alpine fanboy, sorry, that is my opinion, based on extensive use, like yours of the Megajul. Sorry, I shall remember not to have an opinion next time.
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