Alpine Axe - T-rated for snow belays?

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 Robin Woodward 17 May 2016
Hi, so I'm looking for advice on getting two axes for alpine climbing for my girlfriend and I.

I currently have a pair of BD Vipers which I used for ice/scottish winter etc. This winter I also bout two BD Venom 50cm Hammer axes for GF to use on easy scottish winter stuff and because they were ridiculously cheap and i'm a sucker for a bargain.

Now we're going on our first alpine trip together (I've been a couple of times before - used some horrendous 75cm walking axe most of the time which spent too much time snagging on the rope when on the bag and is unwieldy), and sadly I feel like the neither of my axe options are ideal for this use (no adze on the Venoms, and the Vipers are a bit too technical).

Initially I was thinking of getting two Adze Venoms (deliberating between 50 and 57 cm) to complement the two hammer's I have (I like two axes for daggering up snow slopes etc.), but I'm slightly concerned that I should be getting something T rated as one of my main reasons for getting some new axes was for making better buried axe belays (for crevasse rescue or other potential snow belays). We're not planning on doing anything above D ever and likely nothing above AD max on this trip.

Do people worry about using non T-rated shafts for axe belays? If so there's not that many options left (Sum'Tec or Air Tech Evo), specially as I'd rather get something with replaceable pics if possible.

If this isn't a real issue, is there much difference in holding power between a 50 and 57 cm buried axe?

Any advice greatly appreciated.
 MG 17 May 2016
In reply to Robin Woodward:

I'd speculate that any axe, even wooden or aluminium shafted ones, will be much stronger than the snow in a belay.
In reply to MG:

I suppose this is probably true (and maybe not an issue due to friction in the system), which would maybe make having the longer B-rated axe better as it's spreading the load more?

As a side point, if B-rated shafts are suitable for crevasse rescue as the snow is likely to be the weak point anyway, then this would indicate that it'd be just as safe to perform crevasse rescue off the smallest micro wire (in a bomber placement) as off a buried axe (obviously the former is not likely to occur on a glacier, particularly at just the right point for you to place it after someone has fallen in!) as they're of similar strength.
 NottsRich 17 May 2016
In reply to Robin Woodward:

You've answered your own question. The surface area of the axe is important, and the funkiness of the shape. Basically you want the load on the snow distributed as evenly as possible over a large area. With a walking axe it is fairly easy to visualise the load it might apply to the snow, but add funky shapes to a technical axe and it becomes more difficult.

Perhaps look up 'bull horn' buried axe belays with technical axes. Page 8 onwards of this for example:

http://www.mountainrescuescotland.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Mag-29-Low...

In reply to NottsRich:

I'd rather avoid this being my answer as it then assumes I'm going to carry two axes on every route. Obviously I use this or similar techniques when I'm on a route with two technical axes, but that doesn't really help when I'm on a snow plod with some glacier travel etc.
 MG 17 May 2016
In reply to Robin Woodward:

Practically no one carries two axes on routes up to AD. Straight handled axes long enough to use for balance walking on steep slopes are the norm and most useful. Get a light but solid one. You are very unlikely to need to make an axe belay for crevasse rescue, and if you do the chances that the choice of axe is the difference between success and failure are minuscule. Low weight and general utility are what you want.
 George Fisher 17 May 2016
In reply to Robin Woodward:

Ive just spent part of the morning conducting static load tests for T rated axes. One of which is the 'buried axe' test or at least the test that most closely simulates that scenario. The difference between the 'pass' figures here is 3.5KN for T vs 2.5KN for B. The way the test is carried out is the load is applied centrally between 2 points along the shaft 500mm apart. In real life the snow would offer a more even support along the length and much reduce the bending moment. The loads are just the pass figure, most axes will support more than this anyway.

In short.. I wouldn't worry about it. I think by the time you take into consideration the dynamic top-rope that a buried axe belay would suggest plus the dynamic nature of the snow you'd be hard pressed to reach those loads anyway. In a rescue you'd have to be hauling 250kg to get close to the rating of a 'B' axe.

Where the T test makes a big difference is in torquing picks and stein pulls found in more technical climbing.

I'd get the axe that is most suited to the climbing in general.
 NottsRich 17 May 2016
In reply to Robin Woodward:

If you're on a snow plod then a walking axe is more suitable than a technical axe/s. Don't worry about it being B or T rated, as the snow will break first as MG said. If the axe breaks then you were probably trying to pull a car out of a crevasse.

If you would still prefer to take a technical axe on alpine plods (why?) then go and bury one in the snow in Scotland (yes, plenty left) and try to break the anchor. You will probably break yourself first. Then compare to a walking axe. If you can judge the surface area distribution of the axe well enough then the technical axe should be fine. If you misjudge it then the axe will pull out of the anchor sideways at a relatively low load.
 Mark Haward 19 May 2016
In reply to MG:

I may be unlucky or stupid or both but I've had to use buried axe belays for crevasse rescue several times. When in a rope of two a buried axe belay is easier ( but still pretty challenging ) to do than a snow bollard because of the restriction of the weight of the fallen climber.

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