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I am considering to upgrade my axes to a more technical ones like Grivel Tech Machine, but have some unanswered questions:
1) would I be able to use them in T-slot belays? My concern is that the curve of the shaft would compromise the strength of the placement. Is my concern misplaced?
2) would the lack of adze make it more difficult to dig bucket seats, clear rime in search of gear, dig through cornices etc.? Is there some technical tool specific technique?
3) how do people deal with the lack of hammer?
1) would I be able to use them in T-slot belays? My concern is that the curve of the shaft would compromise the strength of the placement. Is my concern misplaced?
2) would the lack of adze make it more difficult to dig bucket seats, clear rime in search of gear, dig through cornices etc.? Is there some technical tool specific technique?
3) how do people deal with the lack of hammer?
6
In reply to Kirill:
Depends how technical your climbing will be getting. Personally I winter mixed climb with 2 black diamond reactors (similar shape to fusions) which have the hammer and small adze and climbing picks. For what I need they are perfect. The Grivel's are rather technical and I doubt will improve your climbing unless you're on solid ice, dry tooling or real overhangy routes.
It's easy to get into buying kit for kit's sake. That said you might be looking to smash the top end routes.
Depends how technical your climbing will be getting. Personally I winter mixed climb with 2 black diamond reactors (similar shape to fusions) which have the hammer and small adze and climbing picks. For what I need they are perfect. The Grivel's are rather technical and I doubt will improve your climbing unless you're on solid ice, dry tooling or real overhangy routes.
It's easy to get into buying kit for kit's sake. That said you might be looking to smash the top end routes.
1
In reply to olddirtydoggy:
No, not looking to smash the top routes, not in this life anyway. Looking to consolidate at grade VI.
No, not looking to smash the top routes, not in this life anyway. Looking to consolidate at grade VI.
In reply to Kirill:
My answer was to buy some middle of the road technical axes to which I could add bits to make them what I wanted. I have a pair of Reactors, but with a big hammer and a big adze, and a pair of cross-country picks. I can dig and batter my way up things quite happily at that sort of grade.
I did cast longing eyes at a pair of carbon fibre cobras in a sale recently, but resisted temptation. The following day I hammered the shaft of an axe into a crack and thought that it wouldn't have gone well with carbon fibre.
Piolet Bludgeon does it for me.
And yes, you can dig a slot for them etc. Couldn't speak for those shiny axes with tiny or missing hammers though.
My answer was to buy some middle of the road technical axes to which I could add bits to make them what I wanted. I have a pair of Reactors, but with a big hammer and a big adze, and a pair of cross-country picks. I can dig and batter my way up things quite happily at that sort of grade.
I did cast longing eyes at a pair of carbon fibre cobras in a sale recently, but resisted temptation. The following day I hammered the shaft of an axe into a crack and thought that it wouldn't have gone well with carbon fibre.
Piolet Bludgeon does it for me.
And yes, you can dig a slot for them etc. Couldn't speak for those shiny axes with tiny or missing hammers though.
1
In reply to Kirill:
I've been using a Tech Machine, a replacement for a broken Quantum Race, this season.
1. You could use them I supose for T axe belay, in over 20+ years, I've never really needed too, even with straight shafts!
2. Ocasionally you miss adze. The increased reach, hooking, don't seem to clear as much these days, mostly due to previous points.
3. You need a hammer, which you can buy if you change to mixed pick (expensive, also accepts adze). Grivel totally arsed up here, you still place pegs, even more so, on icy routes!!!!!! Luckily my Quantum Race has hammer.
Nice tools.
Stuart
I've been using a Tech Machine, a replacement for a broken Quantum Race, this season.
1. You could use them I supose for T axe belay, in over 20+ years, I've never really needed too, even with straight shafts!
2. Ocasionally you miss adze. The increased reach, hooking, don't seem to clear as much these days, mostly due to previous points.
3. You need a hammer, which you can buy if you change to mixed pick (expensive, also accepts adze). Grivel totally arsed up here, you still place pegs, even more so, on icy routes!!!!!! Luckily my Quantum Race has hammer.
Nice tools.
Stuart
In reply to Kirill:
Requires two axes in the bullhorn configuration. Picks opposed and clove hitched together in the middle. There are some tests done on tech axes in a t-anchor. A quick Google will help to find the full tests.
Depends how technical you want to go quarks, vipers etc are pretty technical tools with or without the adze. But if you're on terrain where a nomic or fusion is required then I imagine clearing snow etc is the lesser of your worries. But in a word yes, digging without an adze is a pain.
By having a full set of teeth I have never once needed a hammer on an axe other than as a substitute for hanging a couple of pictures in the apartment. If bashing nuts and pegs is your thing, then it is probably worth looking at axes that either have a hammer or the option to add one.
Technical axes can improve your climbing and for the most part make it a little easier. You will however have to adapt your techniques, choose different belay types etc.
> 1) would I be able to use them in T-slot belays? My concern is that the curve of the shaft would compromise the strength of the placement. Is my concern misplaced?
Requires two axes in the bullhorn configuration. Picks opposed and clove hitched together in the middle. There are some tests done on tech axes in a t-anchor. A quick Google will help to find the full tests.
> 2) would the lack of adze make it more difficult to dig bucket seats, clear rime in search of gear, dig through cornices etc.? Is there some technical tool specific technique?
Depends how technical you want to go quarks, vipers etc are pretty technical tools with or without the adze. But if you're on terrain where a nomic or fusion is required then I imagine clearing snow etc is the lesser of your worries. But in a word yes, digging without an adze is a pain.
> 3) how do people deal with the lack of hammer?
By having a full set of teeth I have never once needed a hammer on an axe other than as a substitute for hanging a couple of pictures in the apartment. If bashing nuts and pegs is your thing, then it is probably worth looking at axes that either have a hammer or the option to add one.
Technical axes can improve your climbing and for the most part make it a little easier. You will however have to adapt your techniques, choose different belay types etc.
Post edited at 22:58
In reply to Kirill:
If you want to consolidate at VI there is no question that you should get a pair of technical axes. You'll have a much better, less tiring grip and hooking will be a lot more secure and comfortable. No bashed knuckles on steep and and easy to swap hands (that's something that you end undoing a lot more of on harder routes).
If you're upgrading anyway, don't bother with mid range stuff like Quarks or Vipers, go for top of the range like Nomics, Fusions, Texh Machines, etc, it's not that much more to pay and you find some decent deals here. I use Nomics, they're great but people do get creaking heads on them (I haven't yet after two seasons), so perhaps not the most robust. Fusions I find way too heavy but depends what suits you really. I have a pair of Cobras which have a great swing but I find the Nomics are better as they are more aggressive. Also, I find the Petzl picks last better than BD. Mini hammers are a good idea to protect the heads but not essential. Very occasionally I miss not having an adze to chop out a belay spot but it's not really an issue and much safer without it. Can't remember the last time I did a T belay but you can still do it. Oh and go dry tooling in autumn!
If you want to consolidate at VI there is no question that you should get a pair of technical axes. You'll have a much better, less tiring grip and hooking will be a lot more secure and comfortable. No bashed knuckles on steep and and easy to swap hands (that's something that you end undoing a lot more of on harder routes).
If you're upgrading anyway, don't bother with mid range stuff like Quarks or Vipers, go for top of the range like Nomics, Fusions, Texh Machines, etc, it's not that much more to pay and you find some decent deals here. I use Nomics, they're great but people do get creaking heads on them (I haven't yet after two seasons), so perhaps not the most robust. Fusions I find way too heavy but depends what suits you really. I have a pair of Cobras which have a great swing but I find the Nomics are better as they are more aggressive. Also, I find the Petzl picks last better than BD. Mini hammers are a good idea to protect the heads but not essential. Very occasionally I miss not having an adze to chop out a belay spot but it's not really an issue and much safer without it. Can't remember the last time I did a T belay but you can still do it. Oh and go dry tooling in autumn!
3
In reply to Misha:
Yes, I know that technical axes will make life easier on the technical ground - I don't need to be convinced about that. I am just not sure how much pain they are going to be on the moderate ground. I agree though that mid range tools like Quarks and Vipers are not worth bothering with as my Matrixes are pretty much in the same category anyway.
Regarding hammering, I do like to bash in my gear, nuts mostly, but occasionally pegs too. The hammer on my current axe is tiny and not that good for pegs, but its small size comes in as the advantage when hammering in medium sized nuts.
Yes, I know that technical axes will make life easier on the technical ground - I don't need to be convinced about that. I am just not sure how much pain they are going to be on the moderate ground. I agree though that mid range tools like Quarks and Vipers are not worth bothering with as my Matrixes are pretty much in the same category anyway.
Regarding hammering, I do like to bash in my gear, nuts mostly, but occasionally pegs too. The hammer on my current axe is tiny and not that good for pegs, but its small size comes in as the advantage when hammering in medium sized nuts.
In reply to Kirill:
Depends what you're doing.
I've got a pair of well bashed DMM Rebels I've had for years and will do anything. I've also got a pair of Anarchists that were a hand-me-down from a friend. Every trip the Anarchists go in the car boot but never make it up the mountain. I just find the percentage of time they'd be an advantage never stacks up against the percentage of time they wouldn't. Climbing Vs and VIs in Scotland and Wales for me generally involves a lot of moderate terrain, often very exposed and effectively solo, whereas the crux sections and generally short and well protected. It makes more sense to me to be as comfortable as possible on the easy, bold terrain at the expense of having to try a bit harder on the few hard moves.
I'm sure there are venues where the above doesn't make sense but I haven't been to any yet, except for Udlaidh maybe?
Depends what you're doing.
I've got a pair of well bashed DMM Rebels I've had for years and will do anything. I've also got a pair of Anarchists that were a hand-me-down from a friend. Every trip the Anarchists go in the car boot but never make it up the mountain. I just find the percentage of time they'd be an advantage never stacks up against the percentage of time they wouldn't. Climbing Vs and VIs in Scotland and Wales for me generally involves a lot of moderate terrain, often very exposed and effectively solo, whereas the crux sections and generally short and well protected. It makes more sense to me to be as comfortable as possible on the easy, bold terrain at the expense of having to try a bit harder on the few hard moves.
I'm sure there are venues where the above doesn't make sense but I haven't been to any yet, except for Udlaidh maybe?
In reply to Kirill:
just out of interest what do you have on your feet I was very impressed with my darts last winter a huge upgrade on my terminators!
if your buying axes I would figure in the cost of picks. This leaves DMM the clear winner I wince every time I hand over almost 100 quid on new picks for my vipers
just out of interest what do you have on your feet I was very impressed with my darts last winter a huge upgrade on my terminators!
if your buying axes I would figure in the cost of picks. This leaves DMM the clear winner I wince every time I hand over almost 100 quid on new picks for my vipers
In reply to Stuart the postie:
Re the Tech Machines, I've got them too and love them. So easy to hang off, and they swing beautifully into the ice. The lack of hammer is a problem that does require a solution though and, inspired by a picture that Greg Boswell sent me of his mod, I came up with this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/66673682@N00/26059296083/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/66673682@N00/26636866896/
I've hammered in a few things with this and can testify to its effectiveness!
Greg had attached a somewhat larger piece of metal in a vaguely similar configuration by replacing the rear/lower blade-retaining bolt with a longer one and using that.
I do miss the adze a bit for clearing crud off potential screw placements, but that's pretty easily done by side-swiping with the head of the axe, and there's the advantage with that method of being able to use either tool. I did not enjoy having to dig through the cornice on Quartvein Scoop with my hands rather than an adze though, it has to be said, but you can still dig a snow bollard just fine without one.
As an alternative, you can get the Mix picks and order hammer and adze separately. However, the angle of the pick is more acute, making them presumably great for steep tooling (not tried it!) but not so nice for ice and general purposes in my view.
I've also climbed grade II-IV routes with these and they work fine for those - though your partners may complain that, with these in hand, you end up taking unnecessarily butch lines on said routes due to the desire to pull hard on steep things! I agree though that more care would be required if using one in a buried axe(s) scenario - as with all curved tools - and, again as with all curved tools, they're very inferior for self-arrest, speaking from hard experience!
Re the Tech Machines, I've got them too and love them. So easy to hang off, and they swing beautifully into the ice. The lack of hammer is a problem that does require a solution though and, inspired by a picture that Greg Boswell sent me of his mod, I came up with this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/66673682@N00/26059296083/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/66673682@N00/26636866896/
I've hammered in a few things with this and can testify to its effectiveness!
Greg had attached a somewhat larger piece of metal in a vaguely similar configuration by replacing the rear/lower blade-retaining bolt with a longer one and using that.
I do miss the adze a bit for clearing crud off potential screw placements, but that's pretty easily done by side-swiping with the head of the axe, and there's the advantage with that method of being able to use either tool. I did not enjoy having to dig through the cornice on Quartvein Scoop with my hands rather than an adze though, it has to be said, but you can still dig a snow bollard just fine without one.
As an alternative, you can get the Mix picks and order hammer and adze separately. However, the angle of the pick is more acute, making them presumably great for steep tooling (not tried it!) but not so nice for ice and general purposes in my view.
I've also climbed grade II-IV routes with these and they work fine for those - though your partners may complain that, with these in hand, you end up taking unnecessarily butch lines on said routes due to the desire to pull hard on steep things! I agree though that more care would be required if using one in a buried axe(s) scenario - as with all curved tools - and, again as with all curved tools, they're very inferior for self-arrest, speaking from hard experience!
Post edited at 21:19
1
In reply to Kirill:
I upgraded from DMM Superfly to e-Climb Cryo P. I've had them for two winter seasons now.They have been great on Scottish routes this year (III to V) and were a revelation in Hemsedal on Water Ice 4 to 5. They are actually quite straight in the shaft allowing for easy use on moderate terrain, but the metalwork at the top allows huge clearance - easily as much as a nomic or similar. They swing beautifully, the picks are expensive but bomber and very well shaped. The adze is a sensible size for Scottish mush. I havn't done much mixed with them yet, mostly ice routes, but I'm very confident they will perform.
I upgraded from DMM Superfly to e-Climb Cryo P. I've had them for two winter seasons now.They have been great on Scottish routes this year (III to V) and were a revelation in Hemsedal on Water Ice 4 to 5. They are actually quite straight in the shaft allowing for easy use on moderate terrain, but the metalwork at the top allows huge clearance - easily as much as a nomic or similar. They swing beautifully, the picks are expensive but bomber and very well shaped. The adze is a sensible size for Scottish mush. I havn't done much mixed with them yet, mostly ice routes, but I'm very confident they will perform.
In reply to Kirill:
I find the head of the Nomics large enough for nuts, hexes and warthogs (don't really use pegs) but a small hammer is a good idea to protect the fairly soft alloy.
If you're climbing VI it doesn't matter what axes you have on easier ground as it will be easy anyway.
I find the head of the Nomics large enough for nuts, hexes and warthogs (don't really use pegs) but a small hammer is a good idea to protect the fairly soft alloy.
If you're climbing VI it doesn't matter what axes you have on easier ground as it will be easy anyway.
1
In reply to Adam Long:
As you say, depends what you're doing. Plenty of mixed VIs which have multiple technical pitches.
As you say, depends what you're doing. Plenty of mixed VIs which have multiple technical pitches.
In reply to Kirill:
If similar to what you already have then fair enough, but the idea that Quarks and Vipers aren't worth bothering with full stop is just silly. Both are superb tools for the majority of us climbing up to vertical ice and around 6 or 7 mixed.
I reviewed the DMM Switch a few winters back http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6189 they are great in a number of ways but on moderate terrain they can be annoying compared to my old Vipers and Quarks. And when you need to hammer in a piton or a warthog/bulldog (which I needed to do a number of times on a classic III in the Lakes last winter to get a half decent belay!) they are a hassle. The hammers on Quarks and Vipers aren't perfect compared to old straight shafted tools, but better than on the Switches.
Misha (and anyone else with/thinking about Nomics) just saw some interesting comments re: nomics falling apart on a Canadian site the other day: http://www.thealpinestart.com/2016/04/review-cassin-x-mountain-ice-tools/ So it seems that it's not just scottish mixed breaking them!
> I agree though that mid range tools like Quarks and Vipers are not worth bothering with as my Matrixes are pretty much in the same category anyway.
If similar to what you already have then fair enough, but the idea that Quarks and Vipers aren't worth bothering with full stop is just silly. Both are superb tools for the majority of us climbing up to vertical ice and around 6 or 7 mixed.
I reviewed the DMM Switch a few winters back http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6189 they are great in a number of ways but on moderate terrain they can be annoying compared to my old Vipers and Quarks. And when you need to hammer in a piton or a warthog/bulldog (which I needed to do a number of times on a classic III in the Lakes last winter to get a half decent belay!) they are a hassle. The hammers on Quarks and Vipers aren't perfect compared to old straight shafted tools, but better than on the Switches.
Misha (and anyone else with/thinking about Nomics) just saw some interesting comments re: nomics falling apart on a Canadian site the other day: http://www.thealpinestart.com/2016/04/review-cassin-x-mountain-ice-tools/ So it seems that it's not just scottish mixed breaking them!
1
In reply to TobyA:
I have Cobras (same shape as the Vipers) and Nomics. In my experience, Nomics are significantly better on mixed at VI 6 and above. Same for vertical ice. You only need to put them side by side to see the more aggressive shape of the Nomics. Winter climbing is hard enough, might as well get the best tools for the job. There are durability issues with the Nomics (though personally I've yet to experience them) but plenty of other highly technical axes out there.
I have Cobras (same shape as the Vipers) and Nomics. In my experience, Nomics are significantly better on mixed at VI 6 and above. Same for vertical ice. You only need to put them side by side to see the more aggressive shape of the Nomics. Winter climbing is hard enough, might as well get the best tools for the job. There are durability issues with the Nomics (though personally I've yet to experience them) but plenty of other highly technical axes out there.
In reply to Misha:
Well, from my feeble experience from a few VIs, Quarks, Cobras or Vipers would have been just fine. In fact, the the swing suits ya, they'll be more than fine for vertical ice.
To me, ergo-tools make only real difference on steep dry tooling and grade 6 or harder ice. Prolly same thing can be said for harder Scottish mixed...
That said, I'm going to suggest on getting Cassin/Camp X-Dreams (perhaps the alpine version). Quite a few of the locals have switched from Nomics and Fusions (both the old and the new) to these... And indeed, they were really good, on mellow and harder ice, as well as on thin vertical dry tooling. That said, I climbed also the same stuff on my Fusions as well (all single pitch), but the X-Dream just had a better swing and felt lighter. Oh, and the alpine version comes with a usable hammer.
> I have Cobras (same shape as the Vipers) and Nomics. In my experience, Nomics are significantly better on mixed at VI 6 and above. Same for vertical ice.
Well, from my feeble experience from a few VIs, Quarks, Cobras or Vipers would have been just fine. In fact, the the swing suits ya, they'll be more than fine for vertical ice.
To me, ergo-tools make only real difference on steep dry tooling and grade 6 or harder ice. Prolly same thing can be said for harder Scottish mixed...
That said, I'm going to suggest on getting Cassin/Camp X-Dreams (perhaps the alpine version). Quite a few of the locals have switched from Nomics and Fusions (both the old and the new) to these... And indeed, they were really good, on mellow and harder ice, as well as on thin vertical dry tooling. That said, I climbed also the same stuff on my Fusions as well (all single pitch), but the X-Dream just had a better swing and felt lighter. Oh, and the alpine version comes with a usable hammer.
In reply to alasdair19:
G14 or G12 depending on conditions/targets. Couple of friends profess their love for G20, but I am put off by the fact that you can't change the front points on them.
G14 or G12 depending on conditions/targets. Couple of friends profess their love for G20, but I am put off by the fact that you can't change the front points on them.
In reply to TobyA:
Sorry I worded that wrong. I meant that they are not worth buying for me personally as my current tools are in the same category.
> If similar to what you already have then fair enough, but the idea that Quarks and Vipers aren't worth bothering with full stop is just silly. Both are superb tools for the majority of us climbing up to vertical ice and around 6 or 7 mixed.
Sorry I worded that wrong. I meant that they are not worth buying for me personally as my current tools are in the same category.
1
In reply to HeMa:
I do like the Cobras on ice, good swing and balance. But I do find the more aggressive shape of the Nomics better for mixed, particularly the angles no shape of the handle. VIs often have pretty steep bits like overhanging chockstones, it might only be a couple of moves but you want to make it as easy as possible!
I do like the Cobras on ice, good swing and balance. But I do find the more aggressive shape of the Nomics better for mixed, particularly the angles no shape of the handle. VIs often have pretty steep bits like overhanging chockstones, it might only be a couple of moves but you want to make it as easy as possible!
In reply to Misha:
True, but check the handle angles. Eg. Cassin non ergo tools are curved enough to have the same handle and pick angles as the nomic.
> VIs often have pretty steep bits like overhanging chockstones, it might only be a couple of moves but you want to make it as easy as possible!
True, but check the handle angles. Eg. Cassin non ergo tools are curved enough to have the same handle and pick angles as the nomic.
In reply to Tricadam:
What about the ice+ picks. They have the tab for the hammer/adze. They came as standard on my north machines
What about the ice+ picks. They have the tab for the hammer/adze. They came as standard on my north machines
In reply to Kirill:
Buy one with a hammer? DMM Switches have a hammer.
> 3) how do people deal with the lack of hammer?
Buy one with a hammer? DMM Switches have a hammer.
In reply to Kirill:
Grivel do an ice+ pick which can fit the hammer/adze on the tech machines. They came as a standard fit on my north machine carbons.
Grivel do an ice+ pick which can fit the hammer/adze on the tech machines. They came as a standard fit on my north machine carbons.
In reply to Master of Ice:
Huh! Didn't know about those. Are they new? Thanks for the tip-off! Will do some googling, but don't suppose you know of a retailer who stocks the replacement picks?
Huh! Didn't know about those. Are they new? Thanks for the tip-off! Will do some googling, but don't suppose you know of a retailer who stocks the replacement picks?
In reply to Tricadam:
Must admit that I've not seen them online anywhere as yet, but I'm sure they'll be available somewhere. They could be the answer to a lot of tech machine owners thoughts though
Must admit that I've not seen them online anywhere as yet, but I'm sure they'll be available somewhere. They could be the answer to a lot of tech machine owners thoughts though
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