Did you run the Manchester Marathon in 2013, 2014 or 2015?

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 The New NickB 21 Apr 2016

If so, your time doesn't officially count.

I've never run a marathon well, but my last, which was Manchester in 2013 was the one I ran least badly and my PB, by a fair margin, but now it doesn't count.

It was a certified course, measured by the AUKCM, now they have decided it was short by 380 metres.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/36104638
Post edited at 17:26
 steveriley 21 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

It's a swine isn't it? I heard they were adjusting times on Power of Ten, rather than just wiping them. My friend just snuck a GFA time for London - hope she doesn't get pulled on the start line Sunday
OP The New NickB 21 Apr 2016
In reply to steveriley:

Mine has been removed from the SB/PB section and is shown as short distance when I check the year. I was aiming for sub 3 and didn't manage it, this has motivated me to have another go at sub 3 in 2017.
 thedatastream 21 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

*sad trombone noise*
 Roadrunner5 21 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

Its awful and its not clear who's fault it is, is it?

This happened in Cardiff at a similar time, many ran great half's and it was a good 400 yards short.

I cant see London taking action. It would case too much bad press.
OP The New NickB 21 Apr 2016
In reply to Roadrunner5:

> Its awful and its not clear who's fault it is, is it?

Seems to be AUKCM at fault.

> I cant see London taking action. It would case too much bad press.

I know a few people running on Sunday with GFA places from Manchester 2015, I'm not expecting them to suddenly find they haven't got a place.
 DancingOnRock 21 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

> Seems to be AUKCM at fault.

> I know a few people running on Sunday with GFA places from Manchester 2015, I'm not expecting them to suddenly find they haven't got a place.

In think once they've given the place out, that's it.

Power of 10 have removed any PBs from that course and marked it as short.

I suspect anyone from 2015 wanting to use it as a GFA should be ok. VMLM can pro rata it but doubt there will be enough people right in the borderline for them to worry about it too much.
 Roadrunner5 22 Apr 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Yeah I think they will honor it.

Very poor though, it just should not happen.

But it has happened at Cardiff, now Manchester. TBH If I found out my PR courses, say Chicago 2014 (2:36) or Philly Half 2013 (1:13) were out a few years later I would be livid..

I was in great shape (for me) in both and both were PR's by a good few minutes meaning I could have PR'd at the actual distance.. I'm actually surprised both cases in Cardiff and Manchester haven't resulted in court cases..

1
 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
In reply to Roadrunner5:

You're going to sue a volunteer for making an honest mistake?
 DaveHK 22 Apr 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> You're going to sue a volunteer for making an honest mistake?

On the basis of mental anguish perhaps? That would seem to be taking it a bit far.
 Michael Hood 22 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:
I don't understand how these errors are made; how do they measure courses nowadays? Presumably it's no longer a hand held wheel (just seen from the beeb report that it's a bike).

Did they misplace the finish, forget that the distance changed in 1908 (in which case they're still a bit out), or more likely was there a systematic error in the measuring process?

I reckon you'd get less error than that if you just used OS's website - at the least wouldn't you use something like this as a check.
Post edited at 08:26
 Roadrunner5 22 Apr 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> You're going to sue a volunteer for making an honest mistake?

I didn't say I would??

But people will
And shorn people make a living out of races I can understand expecting more..

Rumors of manchesters strength went around each strength 🔪🔪...
 tony 22 Apr 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

> I don't understand how these errors are made; how do they measure courses nowadays? Presumably it's no longer a hand held wheel (just seen from the beeb report that it's a bike).

When we had our marathon measured in 2012, it was a bloke on a bike with a calibrated wheel. Reading the report suggests the calibration was at fault. I'm slightly surprised it's only measured once - I would have thought that an average of 3+ measurements would be preferable.

 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:
It's all here:
http://coursemeasurement.org.uk

It sounds to me like the wheel wasn't calibrated before and after use. The race was certified.

Manchester (the event company organising the event) would have submitted their route (which in all probability was the correct length and measured by themselves first) then the official would have measured it. I'm guessing he would have said the course was long and told them where to shorten it to.

Or

Manchester submitted the route and no one checked it and just issued a certificate. Although this is unlikely because they say they have records and data of it being measured.

So it just sounds like the bike got a flat tyre and it wasn't checked for calibration after the measurement.
Post edited at 09:13
 steveriley 22 Apr 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

With the best of intentions, course measurement can never be 100% precise. Our own half was remeasured this year and had be adjusted to find some extra distance. The course measurer took the kamikaze line on every bend, hugging the bends - even against traffic - roads were open at the time. It all adds up. Pain in the ass for the club, but you have to go with it. I don't know the ins and outs of the course measurer's art but I bet you'd get 2 different results from 2 different officials on the same day. 1% does seem a bit off though - like plugging in the wheel circumference to the bike computer 2cm long on a road bike wheel.
 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
In reply to Roadrunner5:
> I didn't say I would??

> But people will

> And shorn people make a living out of races I can understand expecting more..

> Rumors of manchesters strength went around each strength 🔪🔪...

Yes. I didn't really mean 'you'.

Someone with more money than sense maybe.

The people with the money organising the event are relying on the volunteers, who don't have any money, to guide and inform them.

Any idiot who tries this better understand the implications for road racing if he were to be successful.
Post edited at 09:17
 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
In reply to steveriley:

Off the circumference that sound a lot but it's only 10mm off the radius. Could an under inflated tyre be that much?
 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
London has a blue line.

I'd have to read the site again but I saw someone saying that the line should be 1m from the curb. Don't know where they got that from.
 dread-i 22 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

I did Manchester those years and it was a very enjoyable event. These revelations are not great, but they don't mean much the the majority of runners, who are doing it for the fun and challenge.

I think that Manchester numbers will be down next year, what with the short course issues, but more importantly the gigantic snafu this year with baggage and bogs.

There was a 25+ minute queue to use the traps, if one wanted to 'lighten the load'. The baggage drop off had another 25+ min queue, which as race start was approaching fast saw people throwing their bags at the hapless staff. Good old group4 were stood around, dressed paramilitary style, scratching their arses and doing nothing to help.

After the race, there was a 2h+ queue for bags. It was sunny and warm, which made it less unpleasant, but still pretty p.poor. The worrying aspect is that if it had been cold, wet and windy (as had been the case a few years ago) having several thousand cold and tired people stood in the open could have resulted in a mass casualty event. But this is where group4 showed their worth. Us runners had organised ourselves into a huge long line that snaked back and forth several times, all around the cricket ground. We were tired, annoyed, but resigned to the fact. G4 staff, in a spirit of helpfulness, took it upon themselves, to come out and occasionally shout at the runners and then disappear again until next time they felt like shouting. Bless 'em.

So if you're looking for a marathon next year, I suggest Manchester. There will be few runners and the course will be the right length.
OP The New NickB 22 Apr 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

Calibration of the equipment. The race organiser pays an AUKCM certified measurer to measure the course and certify the course.

The AUKCM statement suggests the equipment used by their measurer wasn't correctly calibrated.
OP The New NickB 22 Apr 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

10 mm off the radius is a completely flat tire.
 JuneBob 22 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

I presume it was a completely different course before 2013?
OP The New NickB 22 Apr 2016
In reply to dread-i:

I did it in 2013 and it was fine. My girlfriend did it in 2012, when the weather was horrific and did not get her bag until three days later.

I was a marshall at this years event and spent 5 hours off course being abused by motorists, with no back up from the organisers or G4S.

I was talking to a mate last night, also aiming for sub 3, in fact he ran 2:57 in Manchester in 2015. We are going to run Frankfurt.

I feel sorry for Andi Jones, at least one of the two that Dave Norman won counts.

Looking at social media, it does seem to matter to a lot of people. To some times matter, to others completing the distance matters. Both have been taken away.
OP The New NickB 22 Apr 2016
In reply to JuneBob:

> I presume it was a completely different course before 2013?

Yes, there have been several courses prior to 2013.
 galpinos 22 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

My Club's (Chorlton) facebook page implies it does matter to a lot of people and they are quite pissed off.
 JuneBob 22 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

I'm also surprised it's taken so long to discover. Looking at the Strava for a number of competitors last year, the distances recorded by each of their GPS is 41.8 or 41.9km, i.e. 300-400m short. I'm guessing it was the same in 2013. Didn't people flag this?
OP The New NickB 22 Apr 2016
In reply to JuneBob:

> I'm also surprised it's taken so long to discover. Looking at the Strava for a number of competitors last year, the distances recorded by each of their GPS is 41.8 or 41.9km, i.e. 300-400m short. I'm guessing it was the same in 2013. Didn't people flag this?

I don't know, personally I never even looked.
 galpinos 22 Apr 2016
In reply to JuneBob:

Yes they did.
 dread-i 22 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

>I did it in 2013 and it was fine. My girlfriend did it in 2012, when the weather was horrific and did not get her bag until three days later.

I did it in 2012 as well, it was a tad wet.
I don't know what would have happened if I couldn't get my bag. My house and car keys were in it, along with clothes, phone and money. I wouldn't have been able to leave the site or contact anyone.
In previous years, I've found the baggage to be busy, but functional. There were also warm tents to shelter in.

>To some times matter, to others completing the distance matters. Both have been taken away.
Fair point.

 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:
> 10 mm off the radius is a completely flat tire.

Wouldn't that depend on the type of tyre?

And is it 10mm. Off the top of my head a bike wheel is about 700mm diameter. 1% of that is 7mm off the diameter. So maybe 3.5mm.

I'm not sure without knowing the actual measurements and doing a drawing and maths on paper.
Post edited at 11:50
 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
In reply to JuneBob:

> I'm also surprised it's taken so long to discover. Looking at the Strava for a number of competitors last year, the distances recorded by each of their GPS is 41.8 or 41.9km, i.e. 300-400m short. I'm guessing it was the same in 2013. Didn't people flag this?

I think a lot of people did question it. That's why it was remeasured for 2016.

The link I posted earlier has a statement and lots more info.
 Neil Williams 22 Apr 2016
In reply to dread-i:
To be fair I don't think I have ever done any race (and I have done quite a number) at which there were sufficient toilets. I'd rather pay a bit extra and have them hire in enough. I'd even be happy with a fee for use.
Post edited at 12:11
 Roadrunner5 22 Apr 2016
In reply to JuneBob:

> I'm also surprised it's taken so long to discover. Looking at the Strava for a number of competitors last year, the distances recorded by each of their GPS is 41.8 or 41.9km, i.e. 300-400m short. I'm guessing it was the same in 2013. Didn't people flag this?

That's what Steve Way said..

Generally when you run a marathon your GPS reads 26.4+... anything less than 26.2 is very suspicious.
 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
In reply to Neil Williams:

> To be fair I don't think I have ever done any race (and I have done quite a number) at which there were sufficient toilets. I'd rather pay a bit extra and have them hire in enough. I'd even be happy with a fee for use.

Marathon runners are a bit odd when it comes to toilets. I wonder if organisers just go by the accepted norm and provide the normal ratio required for a normal event.

Essentially, every single runner will need to go to the toilet before their run. Most will have over-hydrated.

Races should be providing urinals and maybe the female equivalent.
 Neil Williams 22 Apr 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Not just urinals. There is a much greater need for men to use cubicles than normally.
 yorkshireman 22 Apr 2016
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Not just urinals. There is a much greater need for men to use cubicles than normally.

I've done 3 big city marathons (London, Paris and Amsterdam) and they all had the stand up pissoir-type things.

Immodium is the way to go before any big city marathon though - not worth leaving it to chance.

For ultras I don't care, because you get to go in the woods.

In reply to The New Nick B:

> I was talking to a mate last night, also aiming for sub 3, in fact he ran 2:57 in Manchester in 2015. We are going to run Frankfurt.

My wife did Frankfurt last year as her first marathon and said the organisation was terrible. It was also a mind-numbingly boring route taking in motorway flyovers at some points. I didn't go so can't verify and I'm sure other people had different experiences.
 dread-i 22 Apr 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

>Races should be providing urinals and maybe the female equivalent.

To be fair to them, it was hosted at the Old Trafford cricket ground, so there were toilets on site already. However, I get the impression that cricket fans drink a lot and don't each much. There was an abundance of urinals. but very few traps.
After eating all that pasta and carbs, one likes to increase one's power to weight ratio before the race. It wasn't a pressing issue, but I didn't want it to become one later on.
csambrook 22 Apr 2016
In reply to yorkshireman:
> My wife did Frankfurt last year as her first marathon and said the organisation was terrible. It was also a mind-numbingly boring route taking in motorway flyovers at some points. I didn't go so can't verify and I'm sure other people had different experiences.

That's certainly not my experience of that race in 2015. I found the organisation was fine, number pickup worked well, expo wasn't worth visiting, start arrangements were fine, route was fine (on the map it looked as if it would be terrible with long boring straights but in practice was OK), short cobbled section was a shite idea, finish was fine if a little compact, medical services were excellent after-race drinks were also excellent although they didn't allow you to take them into the medical area

I could introduce your wife to marathons which are much less well organised and with much worse routes.
 Roadrunner5 22 Apr 2016
In reply to yorkshireman:

> I've done 3 big city marathons (London, Paris and Amsterdam) and they all had the stand up pissoir-type things.

> Immodium is the way to go before any big city marathon though - not worth leaving it to chance.

No way, the emptying the guts is losing weight.. its the flight response as adrenalin kicks in..

 DancingOnRock 22 Apr 2016
Coffee when I wake up. 20mins later. First poo. Then breakfast and second poo.

Then I'm good to go.

It's the hundreds of blokes stopping at the first bush for a wee at Brighton last Sunday, that made me mention it.

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned toilet habits to marathon runners.
 andy 22 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB: There was a massive hoo-ha at Blackpool a few years ago - they reckon a volunteer put a cone in the wrong place so everyone ran short. The issue there was the organiser refused to admit it was short (it had been measured correctly - it's just that people didn't run what'd been measured) - the row on Runners World forums went on for pages!

A club mate ran her one and only sub-3 there, so she was mightily pissed off.
 mountainbagger 22 Apr 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Coffee when I wake up. 20mins later. First poo. Then breakfast and second poo.

Ditto! Except I use tea. No need for poo at race, just wee wherever I can.

> It's the hundreds of blokes stopping at the first bush for a wee at Brighton last Sunday, that made me mention it.

I was there. Miraculously qualified for elite start, which was wonderful - quiet and relaxed a mile up the road from the main start. Went off too fast (of course), blah blah blah, didn't get as good a time as I should have, you know the story!

I reckon the course was longer than a marathon
Post edited at 20:31
 Roadrunner5 23 Apr 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Coffee when I wake up. 20mins later. First poo. Then breakfast and second poo.

> Then I'm good to go.

> It's the hundreds of blokes stopping at the first bush for a wee at Brighton last Sunday, that made me mention it.

> I knew I shouldn't have mentioned toilet habits to marathon runners.

I'm at least 3 times pre race..

And yes.. silly mistake
 davegs 23 Apr 2016

I ran Manchester in 2014, I'm pissed off with it. I got my PB there by 3 minutes so even if the course had have been the correct length I would've had a PB.

Manchester should refund the entry fees, after all, if you paid for 60m of rope and were sent less than that you'd want your money back.

Right, I'm off to London, see if I can PB tomorrow! (Probably not )
 steveriley 28 Apr 2016
Looks like you can still get (an adjusted) London GFA from Manchester: https://www.virginmoneylondonmarathon.com/en-gb/how-to-enter/good-age-entry...
 ianstevens 28 Apr 2016
In reply to dread-i:

> To be fair to them, it was hosted at the Old Trafford cricket ground, so there were toilets on site already. However, I get the impression that cricket fans drink a lot and don't each much. There was an abundance of urinals. but very few traps.

The whole point of going to the cricket is to eat cake and drink beer all day. So the classic toilet is indeed required in abundance.
 Roadrunner5 28 Apr 2016
In reply to steveriley:

> Looks like you can still get (an adjusted) London GFA from Manchester: https://www.virginmoneylondonmarathon.com/en-gb/how-to-enter/good-age-entry...

wow.. they add 2 minutes for anyone under 70.. and 3 minutes for the over 70..

That's asinine, how many over 70's will race and qualify via London anyway?
 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2016
In reply to Roadrunner5:

It might make a difference to someone. The whole idea is to make the race look good for the cameras.

I know a 65 year old lady who gets GFA every year. Turns up, runs, gets GFA, runs again the next year.

I know a 74 year old man who has run it 20years in a row on GFA. He runs a sub 4:30 which is 30mins inside the GFA.
 digby 28 Apr 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

I've run one marathon - London 2015. Is it unusually well organised? No queue for bag drop or retrieval. A reasonable queue for the loos, and I presume the distance was correct. My gps did not cope with the high rise buildings in dockland well and was quite inaccurate.

Marathons are iconic and the distance is important to a lot of people. I don't really care if a 10k or 10 miler is out but the marathon is all about the eccentric distance that it is. I would feel put out if the distance turned out to be wrongly measured. It's a lifetime ambition for others, which makes it doubly important to have it measured right. This is not from an elite athlete point of view. Presumably they want accuracy too, particularly if records are involved.
Is one man on a bike accurate enough?

Mind you if it was wrong, and I never found out, I wouldn't mind.
OP The New NickB 10 May 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

It gets worse!

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/36259171

I'm devastated for Dave Norman.

My 10k PB is at Trafford, my second best 10k is at Salford which is also suspect.
 steveriley 10 May 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

Oof, that's a real downer. Christleton 5k has a fast reputation in our club
 steelbru 10 May 2016
In reply to The New NickB:
Email today from Xtra Mile Events, regarding GMM 2014 time - they have said that my time on the day of 3:03:18 is equaivalent to ( based on my pace in the last 6 miles ) to a time of 3:05:00

Not sure if they are going to try and get Po10 to "recognise" this estimated time or what the purpose of it is.........

Can't see Po10 recognizing it myself, as I never actually ran a full marathon distance, in the same way they won't take a 20 mile race time and pro-rata it up
Post edited at 20:56
 Stig 10 May 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

I'm not convinced that Trafford is short (at least, in 2016 - has it been re-measured?). It's my PB as well but I'm not really bothered either way.

Arley Hall on the other hand, I'm sure is short. Done it twice and both times it came up as 6.1.

Intrigued that they calibrated the bike on the middlewood way. Depending on which stretch it was, did they take into account the gates and ruts
 Stig 10 May 2016
In reply to The New NickB:

Ah, it seems the 2016 course has been judged to be 100m short. Not much, but 20 seconds or so?
http://coursemeasurement.org.uk/investigations/trafford10kremeasure4apr2016...

Though Dave Norman seems to be suggesting on FB that they even messed up the re-measure!

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