Pre-run food

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rob sykes 04 Mar 2016
Afternoon all

I went on my usual Thursday evening run last night (around 16k) at about 6pm. At about 4.45pm I scoffed a bowl of microwave porridge in a bid to get some "fuel" without feeling full for my run. Towards the end of my run I was definitely feeling the hunger pangs and a bit low on energy.

I plan on running for longer over the coming weeks and months so I feel I need to sort out my pre-run food.

Would be grateful for all and any suggestions and advice on what other runners take in pre-run?

Many thanks

Rob
 The Potato 04 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:
what kind of run were you doing (road, hilly etc)?
I find Im ok up to about 13 miles on road or moderate trails with no food so long as Ive had a little bit before heading out, doesnt matter too much what it is so long as it isnt very sweet or too heavy i.e. lots of fats and meats.

Porridge should be fine, might just be that you need to take something with you as you can easily over eat before a run, perhaps take a banana with you next time?
Post edited at 12:49
 ianstevens 04 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:
Your pre-run sounds reasonable, although I'd be tempted to eat a little earlier, leaving a 2 hour gap between food and running. Partly due to the fact that food sits heavy in my stomach and 2 hours seems to be long enough so that I don't chunder, and partly becasue the oats in porridge take a while to digest and get sugars into the bloodstream. Play around with it and see what works for you, changing one thing at a time.

I'd be tempted to add food into the run - either a banana, some sort of energy bar (you can make your own by blending dates, dried fruit and nuts 1:1:1) or even an gel.
Post edited at 12:52
 Rampikino 04 Mar 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

> I'd be tempted to add food into the run - either a banana, some sort of energy bar (you can make your own by blending dates, dried fruit and nuts 1:1:1) or even an gel.

I agree with this. I am generally fine without food or water on a run up to about 13 miles and then my body starts to need it - I recommend trying out some energy gels.
 DancingOnRock 04 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:
Fat adaption is your friend.

10miles is well over the 1hour that a beginner athlete can run fasted.

What pace are running the 16k at compared to your half marathon/10k time.

I'll run 20miles in 3:20 fasted. But I've been doing this for several years.

Stay well clear of Gels except in the final few weeks of marathon training when you are trying race day nutrition. You're damping your response to training.
Post edited at 12:59
 plyometrics 04 Mar 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:

+1 for fasted training.
 The New NickB 04 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:

It's all very personal, I won't eat anything for 3 hours before a run, 4 if it's a large meal. I often feel hungry before I run, but rarely during.

It's unlikely, unless you haven't eaten all day, that hunger is actually having any impact on performance.
rob sykes 04 Mar 2016
In reply to Pesda potato:

thanks all for your replies - some Food for thought there (if you'll pardon the pun).

to reply to a couple of points....

@ Pesda potato - it was a mixture of road and trail around new mills where i live.

@DancingonRock - i did the run in 1h34m. 323m elevation gain. my pb for 10k is 43.48 and 20k is 1h50m (figures are from memory so please take with a pinch of salt)

cheers

rob
 ianstevens 04 Mar 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:
> Fat adaption is your friend.

To a degree - one pre-breakfast run a week, under an hour. This simulates the latter stages of a long race quite well, and does promote fat metabolism which is needed in part in a long run.

HOWEVER (the big caveat here) at your race pace you should be running at an intensity level that requires carbs in the form of blood sugar and glycogen. This is simply because carbohydrate (CHO) catabolism is simply quicker and more efficient process than fat catabolism - the latter can only sustain a certain level of performance, limited by biochemistry, which training can't change. Hence you should get used to running with CHO as an energy source (fed runs) in addition to training for fat as an energy source - fasted runs. As most of your race will be spent using CHO as the main energy source, this should be trained more.

For a bit of context - the science behind hitting "the wall" is that you basically run out of CHO (in blood and glycogen) and have to metabolise fat for all of your energy requirements. Fat works like a savings account - great for storage, but harder to access, whilst glcogen and blood sugar are your current account - not as efficient for storage (glycogen is around 4kcal/gram and requires a lot of water to store, whilst fat is 9kcal/gram) , but easily accessible. As such you run slower and feel shitter. Viva la carb!
Post edited at 13:30
 DancingOnRock 04 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:

Sounds fine to me. Just continue doing what you're doing. As you start to do longer, reduce the amount of food you have before your shorter long runs.

Give it time. It works.
 DancingOnRock 04 Mar 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

Yes. In a race.
 ClimberEd 04 Mar 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

I'm afraid you're a bit behind on current thinking there.

Whilst there is a lot of complexity about 'metabolic flexibility' and training both fat burning and carb burning systems, for a long run (marathon, 1/2 marathon at the end of a 70.3 tri etc.) or another long distance endurance event, fat burning is now considered key. If you can burn fat effectively you won't 'hit the wall' in the first place.
 ianstevens 04 Mar 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:
> Yes. In a race.

For which you are training surely?

ClimberEd - that might be the case, its been a couple of years since I last really read up as what I've been doing has been working well for me. I'm not trying to say that fat burning is irrelevant; it clearly isn't - it just seems to be very over-represented in the media at the minute, especially with the trend in low carb fad-diets. My personal strategy to avoid the wall is to TRY and get round fastish (3:10 for the marathon last season) - I think it was one of the African athletes (I believe it might have been Gebrselassie, but I'm probably wrong) who said he felt for the fun runners as they simply had to run for such a long time.
Post edited at 14:14
 DancingOnRock 04 Mar 2016
In reply to ianstevens:
I suspect you are already well fat-adapted. Possibly naturally or possibly through training years ago that you didn't realise you were doing.

You only need carbs as you approach race speed. All the race speed runs are short ones, you should have enough carbs for those short runs just through good diet.

We're only talking about the long training run. That's where you are adapting to run aerobically and by reducing the amount of carbs available, forcing your body to learn to use fat as fuel.

I'm not talking about a low carb diet here. Just fuelling specifically for a long run. In this case the OP is only up to 10miles. Looking like a 4+hr marathon.
Post edited at 14:03
 ianstevens 04 Mar 2016
In reply to DancingOnRock:
> I suspect you are already well fat-adapted. Possibly naturally or possibly through training years ago that you didn't realise you were doing.

Quite probably - it's easy to forget these things and get into your own little world of how to train. I suppose that's how an why coaches make their money!

> You only need carbs as you approach race speed. All the race speed runs are short ones, you should have enough carbs for those short runs just through good diet.

Agreed.

> We're only talking about the long training run. That's where you are adapting to run aerobically and by reducing the amount of carbs available, forcing your body to learn to use fat as fuel.

Fair point - although personally, I like to throw a few fast (half marathon - 10k pace) km's on the end of my long run, probably not something to be doing when your long run is the furthest you can go without your legs falling off.

> I'm not talking about a low carb diet here. Just fuelling specifically for a long run. In this case the OP is only up to 10miles. Looking like a 4+hr marathon.

I know you weren't - I only bought them up as they're the current trend and as such those new to training can be easily drawn in. Not to say that the OP is new to training, those looking to make a change can fall foul. I have no idea how people manage with mininimal carbs, it must be a grim existance (he says whilst munching down on a hot cross bun).
Post edited at 14:19
 ClimberEd 04 Mar 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

It is a bloody long time isn't it!

To be fair my knowledge is around long distance triathlon (which obviously involves a marathon) rather than a marathon per se but it is becoming clear that fat utilisation (and minimising carb utilisation as the flip side of this) is the key underlyer (is that a word?!) of performance - Given that you can only store XX calories of carbs (insert as appropriate for an individual) and can only digest XX calories (approx 500/hr, again insert as appropriate for individual differences) per hour you will be carb limited. (think fuel in, fuel out and fuel in the tank analogy.)

It is one of sporting life's ironies that running a marathon at pro pace is actually a very different race and challenge than running it at amateur pace (3hrs+)
 DancingOnRock 04 Mar 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

Yes. It seems in the Internet age everything is always one or the other extreme. People have lost the ability to moderate.
1
JMGLondon 04 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:

Was it one of the flavored porridge sachets? If so, they're packed with sugar which could explain the dip in energy towards the end.
 The New NickB 04 Mar 2016
In reply to ClimberEd:

You can fool your brain in to thinking you have had a carb hit, whilst you burn fat. Just swill an energy drink of your choice around your mouth and spit it out.
csambrook 04 Mar 2016
My opinion is that you simply do not need additional "local" fuel for a 16km run. Depending on your weight and a few other factors (but not speed oddly) that's probably about 1000kcal which your body should be quite happy to scavenge from storage then catch up on during normal eating. My training runs are usually between about 10km and 20km and I never bother to eat "to fuel the run" and that includes 18km runs in to work with no breakfast (well alright I do have a couple of coffees). In fact it also frequently includes a 14km run at lunchtime *instead* of lunch.

Like lots of other runners I used to start marathons with a belt loaded with gels because I'd been told I needed them, now I just run. No gels, no refreshment stops, no water. It's a lot less hassle and I really don't run out of fuel.

There's some new thinking coming from a physiologist and a physicist at Cambridge Uni right now on the topic of endurance running, training and nutrition that's worth looking at, if you're anywhere near Cambridge on Saturday 12th March they are lecturing at the Science festival:
http://www.sciencefestival.cam.ac.uk/events/physics-and-physiology-running-...

Sadly I won't be able to go myself as I'll hopefully be getting a shiny new PB at the Shakespeare Raceway but having heard much of the material before I know it'll be good.
 The Potato 05 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:
I agree with the above except for not stopping for water, keep hydrated

sbrt 05 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:

Run, eat, drink, enjoy. Repeat. Towards the end of most hard runs, you will be feeling the above. Enjoy your run, enjoy your post run food and drink (YOU EARNED IT) and enjoy the extra fitness, after your body has adapted to all your hard work.
Don't forget to have fun

csambrook 05 Mar 2016
> My training runs are usually between about 10km and 20km and I never bother to eat "to fuel the run" and that includes 18km runs in to work with no breakfast.
> Like lots of other runners I used to start marathons with a belt loaded with gels because I'd been told I needed them, now I just run. No gels, no refreshment stops, no water. It's a lot less hassle and I really don't run out of fuel.

Hmm, those lines together are misleading, let me clarify.
For training runs (up to about 30km) I don't eat anything beforehand. For a marathon race I'm usually to be found stuffing about half a tube of Jaffa cakes into my body just before the start.

Also, thinking a bit more about it, I don't think you could take this approach on day 1, it's something that comes with training.
 Roadrunner5 07 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:

Sounds OK, I'd just carry a gel.

My lunch break is around 11:00, and I often do 14-15 miles at 4pm. And I'd not eat anything between lunch nor on the run but would be getting low on energy by th eend of the run. If I was doing a longer run I'd probably grab an afternoon snack of a muffin or something and carry a few gels.

The more efficient you get at running the longer you can go without food. Its time rather than miles though. So 10 miles at 10 minute mileing would be similar t0 14 at-15 7 minute mileing.

I'm not into fat adaption but it depends on your body and food preferences. I've friends who will run 50k on nothing, no food no water.

I couldn't do that but I run significantly quicker which I do think is a factor.

Generally before a morning run, a long one, it would be 2 pieces of toast with jam and/or honey. Yesterday I had a bagel 3 hours before then a banana muffin 2 hours before and then just gels every hour for a trail marathon and felt fine energetically and gut wise.
rob sykes 08 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:

been away for a few days and logged back in to see all these responses.

thanks to everyone who replied - some great information there to read through.

cheers guys
 Mike_Bottom 08 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:

Peanut Butter & Avocado smootie is my pre race fuel... For me it needs to be 2hours to 90 mins before to avoid stitches...
I then nibble on a clif bar or something with water right up until going to the start so maybe 15 mins before.

That answers your question.... But that being said anything over 90 mins for an average person your going to start to run out of energy stores so your going to get that feeling regardless and need to keep taking in fuel to avoid it.
I like sports beans or shot blocks because you can nibble as you go rather than one big hit.

happy running

 Curry 08 Mar 2016
In reply to rob sykes:

For most training runs during the week, for anything up to 10 miles after work around 6pm I usually have a rice cake with some almond butter (home made, 'slightly' cheaper!) and some water around 200ml.

If I'm running first thing in the morning nothing more than a gulp of water for an easy paced run. At the weekends around 2-3 hours before a long training run, then a black coffee and a bagel with peanut butter and maybe a banana, for a shorter run then just a tablespoon of almond butter and some water.

Before a race, an ultra, then usually just coffee, bagel and a banana as above. I've found I've been able to trim it down from eating loads pre-run when I only started running properly 3 years ago, to now where I find I can handle less food but calorie dense stuff. Carb heavy!

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