Missing persons on Ben Nevis

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 Olli-C 15 Feb 2016

Ben Nevis
Hi,

I'm looking for any information on some missing friends on Ben Nevis. A female and a male climber in their 20's. They had been camped behind the CIC hut in a green tent for the weekend. Any information on the plans for the day or observed incidents please can you contact Police Scotland on 101 and ask for Fort William Police.

Lochaber Mountain Rescue have also posted on their facebook page https://www.facebook.com/lochabermrt/posts/949871418395395

Thanks
Post edited at 20:44
1
 staceyjg 15 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Hi Ollie, I've seen the lochaber mountain rescue post. I hope they're found safe and sound, good friend of ours.

Please keep us posted

 girlymonkey 15 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Have a bump, incase folks haven't seen it.
Hope they get found soon!
 BartH 15 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

This is a photo of the two in their winter kit that may help people remember/recognise them,

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156515038615257&set=o.1267305...

Hopefully this helps.
 Patrick Roman 15 Feb 2016
In reply to BartH:

I was outside the CIC at 1150-1200 on Saturday morning. There were two people matching the image in the above photo, he was wearing a red jacket and she a green and turquoise jacket. I went around the back of the hut to sort some of my kit out of the wind.

The male came round a minute later and stood very close to me - I remember thinking at the time that he probably thought I was raking through the tent! I don't know if it was his tent, but he stood there for a few minutes before walking back round to the front of the hut. When I returned round a few minutes after that, I remember seeing the girl putting on white (?) sunglasses by the water pipe and begin heading back down the path. I started up towards Coire na Ciste and after another couple of minutes I spotted her for the last time about 100m or so further down the path.

I've passed all of this on to FW Police, who suggested they were sighted on the Sunday, but no further information was given. I hope this helps.

Patrick x
 penny_pops25 15 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Bump
 Trangia 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Another bump
 drunken monkey 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Trangia:

Keeping this up the top of the page. Have shared the Lochaber MRT post on FB as well.

Fingers crossed for a positive outcome. Looking on FB, quite a few people have seen them over the weekend so hopefully this will help the police/Lochaber MRT put together a timeline.
 Anna G 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Has there been any news?
 toad 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Did you know you post has been reproduced verbatim on the Guardian website?
 BALD EAGLE 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

bump
 Patrick Roman 16 Feb 2016
In reply to toad:

> Did you know you post has been reproduced verbatim on the Guardian website?

FFS! No, I didn't. I've just had a look. I'd have liked it if they'd contacted me first or discussed it with the police, but if it helps in any way then it's positive.

Seems as if the possible sighting of them on Sunday on the Trident Buttresses may have been of another team (according to a comment left on LMRT's FB page). As ever, all credit to the search teams.
 SenzuBean 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Just had a word with one of my friends who was climbing in the area on the weekend. They said that they were climbing near Trident Buttress, and they were mis-identified as the missing climbers (which may have been the reason that MR searched around Trident Buttress - but possibly there were other sightings too, not sure).
Friend (female) was wearing purple jacket and blue rucksack, other friend (male) was wearing black jacket with green rucksack. To be clear these are NOT the missing persons.
 mcb 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:


Great, enthusiastic young climbers. Such good role models for the sport. I've seen them out and about in the past and follow their logbooks cos they climb routes I'd like to. I hope they are found ok. I'm crossing everything and thinking of them and the search teams.
 Trythallj 16 Feb 2016
In reply to mcb:

bump
 Andy Johnson 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

BBC Scotland are reporting that the search has been suspended due to adverse conditions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35585901

Hoping for a good outcome.
 SteveJC94 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

bump
 ScottTalbot 16 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Fingers crossed for them!
 Ava Adore 17 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

As posted on the other thread, BBC News report that search is resuming today
 colinakmc 17 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Any news yet? (Bump)
Chris Heff 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

The Ben was rammed.

THINK, did you see a turquoise jacket or purple helmet? call 101.

ANY INFO IS GOOD INFO.
 Patrick Roman 18 Feb 2016
In reply to hassleheff:

As mentioned in my post above, when I saw them on Saturday they were heading back down the path. Assuming they were going climbing, my only plausible thought is that they may have been heading for Castle Ridge and wanted to cross the river lower down and head directly up towards the route rather than cross potentially unstable snow slopes beneath Carn Dearg and The Castle. I have no idea if the north face of Castle Ridge has been checked but it's an area that I doubt would have seen any traffic since the w/end. Castle Ridge was climbed on Saturday by 4 people (according to the UKC logbooks), but they were probably well established on the route by 1200 (which is when I saw Rachel and Tim by the hut).

These are just my own thoughts and could be completely misleading. They're also based on the assumption that whatever happened occurred on the Saturday. With the possible sightings of them on the Sunday by the Trident Buttresses and on Glover's Chimney now seemingly a case of mistaken identity, I actually don't know if there has been a 100% confirmed sighting on the Sunday? My sincere apologies in advance if any of this post is upsetting to the families or friends of the couple.

Patrick x
 JJL 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Hi

Two thoughts (and please don't flame me if not helpful).

1. Patrick, when you say "begin heading back down the path. I started up towards Coire na Ciste and after another couple of minutes I spotted her for the last time about 100m or so further down the path." do you mean she was heading down from the hut? That would put them more towards the castle area. Or do you mean behind you and going up the path to na Ciste?

2. Looking at their log books for winter routes, they really only do *** routes and (Rachel in particular) has risen fast through the grades. So something at V/VI and superclassic. Gemini?

Still hoping.
1
 drunken monkey 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Possibly worth getting back in touch with FW Police mate. That's very useful info and could well be the LKP for them both if the sighting on Sunday turns out to be mistaken identity.

Give them a ring again - its worth a try.
 chris_s 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Presuming you've already relayed this to police in Fort William? If not, please ring them now.
1
 Patrick Roman 18 Feb 2016
In reply to JJL:

1. She was heading back DOWN the path AWAY from the hut, just as you would if you were walking back down to the car park. Definitely NOT behind me and heading UP towards the crags.

2. I noticed that too, she's certainly a very competent climber. I know what you're saying about Gemini. It looked in when I saw it from the path, the steep smear really stood out. Above that it appeared decidedly mixed (which it is anyway). Again, that whole area above Waterfall Gully has probably seen very little traffic (with most abbing off WG). I just don't know.
1
 Patrick Roman 18 Feb 2016
In reply to drunken monkey and chris_s:

Just off the phone to FW Police. I've passed on all of the above (Castle Ridge, Castle Ridge NF, Waterfall Gully, Gemini) and they're going to contact the rescue team now.
 Hawky 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:
My mate was on castle ridge yesterday. Will message him now.


Have messaged him he should be on soon
Post edited at 16:59
 nclarey 18 Feb 2016
In reply to ryan p:

Have UKC staff sent a message to everyone who recorded climbs on the Ben last weekend in logbooks?
 Mr. Lee 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

What other routes are in condition in that area currently? Eg Boomer's Requiem, Compression Crack?
 Hawky 18 Feb 2016
In reply to nclarey:
I know Scott hasn't logged his route yet as he's in glencoe at the Kingshouse until tomorrow.
I'm preying for these two.

No idea about your question though but i would imagine so.
 Patrick Roman 18 Feb 2016
In reply to ryan p:

> My mate was on castle ridge yesterday. Will message him now.

> Have messaged him he should be on soon

Thanks, that's really helpful.
 JJL 18 Feb 2016
In reply to nclarey:

> Have UKC staff sent a message to everyone who recorded climbs on the Ben last weekend in logbooks?

That's an excellent suggestion - I've sent it in to the mods.
 Scott Anderson 18 Feb 2016
In reply to ryan p:

Hi, yes on Castle ridge Wednesday from about 9am. Didn't see anything that would suggest any missing climbers that way. We were overtaken by two German chaps and those were the only visible tracks on the entire route.
 Patrick Roman 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Mr. Lee:

> What other routes are in condition in that area currently? Eg Boomer's Requiem, Compression Crack?

The initial steep pitch of Boomer's looked fine, but the next steep pitch had gaps in it (though perhaps still climbable?). Harrison's looked ok, though steeper than it was last year. The Shroud was a couple of metres off connecting. The Castle didn't look to have anything at the toe of the buttress, and the direct line looked a bit patchy. Didn't study Compression Crack. This was all sighted from the path however.

Of all the routes right of Carn Dearg Buttress, Waterfall Gully, Harrison's and Castle Ridge would I guess be the most logical choices (all of them have been climbed recently). That said, I'm not sure I'd want to be anywhere near the hanging corrie above The Shroud/Harrison's.
 Peter Milner 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Not sure if this helps, but on Saturday we were intending to do Waterfall Gully and on approaching at around 1.30pm spotted a couple of climbers on maybe the second or third pitch (a crack/chimney) of either Shield Direct or Gemini (I don't know which way the higher pitches of these go). Gemini looked close to being in condition. As we started to gear up we were hit by a massive ice fall (tv size blocks), which I guessed might have been dislodged by these or other another party above. We were spooked enough to retreat, but did not notice if the two climbers we had seen were still there.
 Patrick Roman 18 Feb 2016
In reply to JJL:

Just to add, LMRT called me about an hour ago and I've had a long chat with them about the above. There is no doubt they're doing everything they can and I'd think the area right of Carn Dearg Buttress will now be searched in detail.
 Hawky 18 Feb 2016
In reply to fifth:

Thanks for confirmation Scott, appreciate it buddy, just thought I would let you know the current situation. Cheers
 JJL 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Peter Milner:

Did you see what colour they were wearing?



<and wtf? Someone has disliked my earlier post?>
 Peter Milner 18 Feb 2016
In reply to JJL:
Sorry, just a vague memory - but maybe one of them was in something brown.
I don't really recall the colours (red & turqoise) that were in the photo.
Post edited at 18:28
 veteye 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

I think that we are all grateful for the unstinting work of the Lochaber Mountain Rescue Team and hope that they find some useful leads in some of the above thread. Thank You LMRT.
Chris Heff 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Thanks for this Patrick I know it will be appreciated
 Martin Hore 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Has Peter Milner's report above been communicated to LMRT?

1
Chris Heff 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Peter Milner:

Peter you need to call 101 mate
1
 jameshiggins 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Peter Milner:
There is a report on scottishwinter.com of a Italian couple climbing Shield Direct on Saturday 13th. It is possible this is who you saw.

Jim
Post edited at 19:51
 Peter Milner 18 Feb 2016
In reply to jameshiggins:

OK, yes, now that I'm seeing the colours the climber is wearing in the photo on scottishwinter.com I'd say this is who we saw.
 Hawky 18 Feb 2016
In reply to JJL:

Some people only come on to hit the dislike button. Take no notice
 deacondeacon 18 Feb 2016
In reply to JJL:

>

> <and wtf? Someone has disliked my earlier post?>

It's probably just someone hitting it by accident on a mobile phone. Forget about it

 Martin Hore 18 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Patrick

Do you know from your conversation with LMRT whether they are following this thread? Seems to me there's a lot of helpful information on here today that could help narrow the search tomorrow if they can get out.

I'm assuming Tim and Rachel's tent has been searched and no climbing gear found (ie they were heading out for a climb, and one that required their full rack). Given their experience and ability, the late-ish start Saturday, and the direction they were heading, that should narrow it down to a few climbs in the Carn Dearg, Castle Ridge area, as has been suggested.

The sighting by Peter Milner seems to have been the Italians on Shield Direct, but the ice fall Peter describes could have involved another party in the area. The Italians might have some information?

It seems that no-one saw Rachel and Tim after lunchtime Saturday - but do the SMC have contact details for those who were staying at the CIC Saturday night who might have spotted them if they returned that evening and set out again Sunday?

Just a few thoughts having read today's posts which just might be helpful to someone in touch with the LMRT. I expect they have taken these things into account already.

I wasn't on the Ben last weekend, and haven't been there for a while. I did meet Rachel by chance at several crags around the country in 2013 - she's an exceptional young climber.

Martin







 Elsier 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin Hore:

I was staying in the CIC at the weekend, but I didn't see them, only their tent.

I emailed everyone in our group and also another group to ask them to contact the police if they had any info/sightings.

That covers most people who were there, although I think there were also a couple of other pairs staying in the CIC, so might be worth someone trying to find out who they were/ contact them.
 Tony the Blade 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Fingers crossed that today's the day they are found, cold and hungry maybe, but alive and kicking.

 BedRock 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Tony the Blade:

no search today due to conditions but hopefully extensive ground search tomorrow.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35611717

keeping everything crossed and hoping they are found soon.
 Patrick Roman 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Do you know from your conversation with LMRT whether they are following this thread? Seems to me there's a lot of helpful information on here today that could help narrow the search tomorrow if they can get out.

Yes, they're aware of what's being posted on these particular threads as well as on the likes of Facebook. They're also aware of Rachel's logbook and experience/winter background.

> I'm assuming Tim and Rachel's tent has been searched and no climbing gear found (ie they were heading out for a climb, and one that required their full rack). Given their experience and ability, the late-ish start Saturday, and the direction they were heading, that should narrow it down to a few climbs in the Carn Dearg, Castle Ridge area, as has been suggested.

Rachel's car was recovered very early on, likewise the tent, although I don't know anything about its contents. I was asked about the colour of Rachel's rucsac (I said black but it's one of those things I wouldn't notice unless it's unusual). So, there may only have been sleeping and cooking kit in the tent.

Before the car was recovered, I had actually wondered if they'd walked out from the Ben and gone somewhere else for the afternoon, but that seems unlikely as they'd probably have driven. I also wondered if they were dropping down the path in order to better access Carn Mor Dearg, perhaps to do the CMD arete, but at 1200? I'm not so sure. They seemed to be early risers (0430 alarm call for Point Five last year, and they'd finished the route by 1030), so when I saw them at 1200 maybe they'd already climbed a route? Maybe they had retreated because of snow/ice conditions? When I first saw Tim (I'm assuming now it could only be him) he was sitting on the wall directly in front of the door into the CIC with his arms folded and his chin resting on them. I remember thinking he seemed quite despondent. Please remember these are just my initial impressions, all formed in a split second.

> The sighting by Peter Milner seems to have been the Italians on Shield Direct, but the ice fall Peter describes could have involved another party in the area. The Italians might have some information?

I agree that this would be worth checking.

> It seems that no-one saw Rachel and Tim after lunchtime Saturday - but do the SMC have contact details for those who were staying at the CIC Saturday night who might have spotted them if they returned that evening and set out again Sunday?

I wondered about this too. Did anyone spot or hear any activity/torch lights around the hut on Saturday night/early Sunday morning? At 1200 on Saturday, their tent was the only one pitched at the CIC. Other tents were on the mountain, but nowhere near the CIC e.g. Lochan na Ciste. While it's probably a best guess, given the circumstances, that they may have been heading towards the Castle area, I was encouraged to see that areas like Coire Leis have been searched already. The Little Brenva Face is such a quiet part of the Ben and hidden from sight. Although there are no super classic lines there, which seemed to appeal to them (and why not?).

> Just a few thoughts having read today's posts which just might be helpful to someone in touch with the LMRT. I expect they have taken these things into account already.

The more thoughts the better. This is being stressed by LMRT too, that we all continue to discuss possibilities. Ultimately, with the collective experience of the search teams involved, absolutely everything that can be done will be done.

> I wasn't on the Ben last weekend, and haven't been there for a while. I did meet Rachel by chance at several crags around the country in 2013 - she's an exceptional young climber.

Some happier times from Rachel's blog:

https://rachslater.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/first-winter-experience-on-the-...
 baldie 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Elsier:

Hi Elsie, we were one of the couples at the CIC (tall guy and old guy). Didn't see Tim or Rachel either Saturday or Sunday, Sorry.
1
 Ramon Marin 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Not sure if anyone has contacted the Italians on Shield Direct mentioned above. Telling by the ScottishWinter report their English is really bad. I would be happy to talk to them if that help, I have Renzo's email. But I don't want to double up if someone is already in contact with them. Would anyone here know or should I contact MR or call 101?

Thanks
Chris Heff 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Ramon Marin:

I wouldn't hesitate to call 101, absolutely no harm in offering to help and they could be at a loss of how to get in touch with the Italians.

 Ramon Marin 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Chris Heff:

I found Renzo phone number, I will speak to him first and check whether he's in touch with the Police/MR. I will call 101 then
Chris Heff 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Ramon Marin:

Brilliant, I'm sure MR will appreciate everything that you are doing!
 Martin Hore 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Thanks Patrick

I've not contacted Fort William police myself as I haven't any first hand information to offer. But I did email Simon Richardson who posted the Italians' report on the scottishwinter site. He has now read this thread and emailed the Italian guide. I don't think the Italians had been contacted before. Simon is also contacting Fort William Police with the information.

One further thought that I had overnight. Rachel was due back at work Monday morning. It's unlikely they carried extra food. So any evening meal type food in the tent would suggest the incident happened Saturday. No food in the tent makes it more likely it happened Sunday.

It occurred to me as well that they might have chosen a walk rather than a climb on Saturday pm - just possibly heading down from the hut initially to head up Carn Mor Dearg. They would probably have then left some climbing gear in the tent.

I expect the LMRT guys will have factored these thoughts in already, but it's good they are following this thread.

Martin
1
 Martin Hore 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Ramon Marin:

Ramon

See my post above. Simon Richardson has emailed Renzo. But a call from you won't come amiss.

Martin
 Patrick Roman 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Ramon

> See my post above. Simon Richardson has emailed Renzo. But a call from you won't come amiss.

> Martin

Absolutely. It's simply a case of calling 101 and then asking to be put through to Fort William Police. It is all massively appreciated.
Chris Heff 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Absolutely agree, that goes for anyone reading this thread, they shouldn't be hesitating for a second to call 101 and ask for Fort William.

MR / Police aren't going to be upset at you trying to help, even if you think it is duplication of what they already know.

 lcullum7 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin Hore:

There is nothing logged on here but there was a team climbing in the hanging corrie above Boomer's/Harrison's on Sunday, probably having done one of those 2 routes. Might be useful to let LMRT know if they did/didn't see anything in the area, if they haven't already
 Patrick Roman 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Thanks Patrick

> I've not contacted Fort William police myself as I haven't any first hand information to offer. But I did email Simon Richardson who posted the Italians' report on the scottishwinter site. He has now read this thread and emailed the Italian guide. I don't think the Italians had been contacted before. Simon is also contacting Fort William Police with the information.

That's excellent.

> One further thought that I had overnight. Rachel was due back at work Monday morning. It's unlikely they carried extra food. So any evening meal type food in the tent would suggest the incident happened Saturday. No food in the tent makes it more likely it happened Sunday.

Good point, I didn't think of that.

> It occurred to me as well that they might have chosen a walk rather than a climb on Saturday pm - just possibly heading down from the hut initially to head up Carn Mor Dearg. They would probably have then left some climbing gear in the tent.

Another good point. If they had been spooked by conditions earlier on the Saturday (many were), a lot of people would choose a walk rather than sit around in a tent all day (it was too cold to sit outside), especially when you're staying on the mountain that night. And the ground each side of the CMD arete is obviously rarely visited or studied.

> I expect the LMRT guys will have factored these thoughts in already, but it's good they are following this thread.

Definitely.
 Mike Nolan 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Does anyone happen to know if they were out climbing on Friday as well?
 Ava Adore 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

What an amazing thread. So much helpful information; so many people trying everything to help.

 Ramon Marin 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

I tried to get in contact with Renzo Corona (the Italian on The Shield), no luck, he must be climbing or guiding. Here is is details in case someone else want to try tel: +39 335 1045569
e-mail: renzoc64@gmail.com (his details are public online so no harm putting them up here) I'm running out of battery on my phone so not sure how much longer I'll be able to try until I get home later on.
1
 marie 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Desperately hoping for good news.

Is it usual to leave tents in place and take down after a long day's climbing? If Rachel was due at work on Monday, it would be logical to me to pack away the kit in advance (if leaving that day) so you don't have to worry about doing it after a day in the hills and a long drive ahead.

This points to me to think that Saturday is key.
 Patrick Roman 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Ramon Marin:

Thanks Ramon.
In reply to marie:

I've always left the tent up - provides a refuge to get back to and have a brew before the walkout.
 Patrick Roman 19 Feb 2016
I know it might seem irrelevant, but I'll be out of communication from now until approx. 11pm tonight (LMRT can still call me if necessary). Just in case anyone comes on here to ask me anything directly. I didn't want to appear rude.

I agree with a comment above. Everyone is being super helpful, which is so important considering what the families and friends of Tim and Rachel must be going through.
 marie 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Eeyore:

I understand. I just figured in this instance because they'd camped behind the hut, if shelter was needed, the hut was there.
 Mr. Lee 19 Feb 2016
In reply to marie:

I think a lot of people would prefer to lower a tent after a climb. Otherwise you end up packing the camping gear in the morning and then repacking everything after the climb in order to combine the climbing gear that you've taken on the route. From personal experience it usually means emptying my climbing bag and repacking everything from scratch. If you've only brought a bag each then it's not practical to pack until after the climb. Tents can often be damper in the morning because of condensation so there's often the temptation to leave it until after then climb. Also, unless stashing the camping gear in the CIC entrance, I'd feel my remaining belongings were safer in a pitched tent than stashed somewhere nearby. Opportunity to brew up and rest before the descent, as mentioned above.
 nclarey 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

One other suggestion to anyone who was in the vicinity of the Ben at the time is to have a good look at any photos you or members of your party took - just in case Rachel or Tim are visible in any of them.
 David Myatt 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

We were also in the CIC on Sat and Sun night and gave statements to the police at the NF car park when we got down mid afternoon on Monday after doing the first pitch of Waterfall Gully. We did see the green tent by the hut when we changed the gas cylinder on Sunday about 5.30 pm, but no sign of occupants.

I've seen mentioned somewhere that Rachel and Tim intended doing Great Chimney on the Saturday? There certainly was a pair doing that, as we went up Observatory Gully just after mid day on Sat but decided against going too high due the avalanche that a pair had set off earlier trying to get to point 5. We climbed the east flank of Tower Ridge, a line that appears to be Lower East Wall Route, and started at a belay that a pair who went up Great Chimney had just vacated. Didn't see them close up and by the time we lost sight of them they were well into the chimney.
 antmorgan1991 19 Feb 2016
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35611717

Looks like the weather's going to change and the MR team are going to get back out tomorrow. Fingers crossed
 Misha 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Mike Nolan:
No they weren't.
 malk 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Misha:
i see you recently climbed Gemini, but prob would have noticed anything untoward on that route?
i only mention this as Tim has quite a few astro themes in his ukc wishlist (being a physicist)?..
pair on great chimney need to be ruled out..
Post edited at 15:19
 James FR 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Update on https://www.facebook.com/HighlandIslandsPoliceDivision copied below:

Unfortunately, due to severe weather and ground conditions, land searches for missing climbers Rachel Slater and Tim Newton remain suspended today (Friday 19th February 2016). Due to high winds and driving snow, searches from the air will not be possible.

Yesterday afternoon Search and Rescue helicopter 951 carried out an aerial search of the Ben Nevis area with Lochaber Mountain Rescue Team personnel on board. Unfortunately nothing significant was observed.

Conditions remain under constant review. Police and partners reiterate the appeal to anyone with any information that may assist the search effort to make contact. Climbers and walkers travelling to the area this weekend are asked to bear the search activity in mind and report anything they feel may assist via 101.

An assessment of conditions will be made first thing tomorrow (Saturday 20th February) where consideration will be given to deploying Mountain Rescue personnel and all available resources.

Members of the public and the media are thanked for their assistance to date. A further update will be issued as soon as land searches resume.
 Elsier 19 Feb 2016
In reply to malk

I met a couple (Not Rachel and Tim) outside the CIC on Sat morning who were heading to the Great Chimney. I know one of them, so she stopped and we had a chat. So could be them that were seen on the route.

I think they are aware of the missing couple as I think I saw she posted the request for info on Facebook. So I assume she didn't see anyone fitting their description in that area.

I can message them to confirm it was them on the great Chimney and that they didn't change plans.
In reply to Martin Hore:

Martin

I received a reply from Renzo as follows:

Ciao simon ho risposto anche a ramon io quel giorno ho visto solo due persone scalare penso waterfall? A destra di gemini, non so se uomo o donna pero', poi altri che sono passati sotto la parete ma nessun incidente, mi spiace tanto non poter aiutarvi,,, ciao Renzo

Translated, this is:

Hi simon I replied also to ramon that day I saw only two people climb I think waterfall? Right of gemini, I don't know if a man or woman but ', then others who have passed under the wall but no accidents, I'm so sorry can't help you,,, Hi Renzo

So in summary, on Saturday 13th, Renzo saw no party on Gemini and two people in Waterfall Gully. Others passed underneath Renzo when he was on Shield Direct. (These people may have been on the way to Harrison’s Climb Direct or Castle Ridge. This is pure speculation on my part, but both have been climbed recently. A party who climbed Castle Ridge on the 14th reported on UKC logbook that the descent back to Lochan Meall an t-Suidhe as being rather avalanche prone).

Simon
 Martin Hore 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Simon Richardson:

Thanks Simon for making that contact.

I presume you'll be relaying that info to LMRT via the Fort William police. I believe the team are monitoring this thread too, but probably no harm in doubling up.

It was beginning from other sightings, and posts on here, to look as if Gemini was a likely location for an early search tomorrow, but this from Renzo rather contradicts that.

I was also in contact with Peter Milner (see his post at 17.56 yesterday) and he has left a message and his phone details with Fort William police. Unusual perhaps that Renzo doesn't recall the ice fall that Peter describes, but he was probably pretty focussed on his climbing.

Just to confirm that I've no first hand knowledge myself, just trying to pull a few thoughts together from a retired persons "home office" in Ipswich. I have done a fair number of the easier Ben winter classics in the past though, I've met Rachel a couple of times, and I owe the Lochaber team for pulling me off Craig Meagaidh one night back in the 90's.

Martin





 SenzuBean 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Simon Richardson:
> A party who climbed Castle Ridge on the 14th reported on UKC logbook that the descent back to Lochan Meall an t-Suidhe as being rather avalanche prone).

There were at least a few people avalanched on the Saturday from what I've heard - were any of these not triggered by the involved? I.e. I'm thinking maybe a party maybe have been avalanched (or nearly avalanched) from a "natural" avalanche (but actually it was the Rachel and Tim).

e.g. One Saturday avalanche on the Ben http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=634582
Post edited at 17:15
 malk 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Simon Richardson:
he doesn't mention waterfall gully though-only to the right of gemini?..
Post edited at 17:25
In reply to Martin Hore:

Hi Martin

Yes, I've contacted Fort William police and they have my phone number if they wish to discuss further.

Simon
In reply to malk:

My interpretation of Renzo's reply is that he saw two people in waterfall (gully) which is immediately right of Gemini.
 malk 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Simon Richardson:
ahh, have not been there- i was imagining routes between the two
 Misha 19 Feb 2016
In reply to malk:
I'm afraid all I knew was that they were camping. I passed that on as soon as I heard about the search on Monday afternoon. (I did Gemini a year ago)
 Misha 19 Feb 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:
On Monday evening I emailed one on the people who got avalanched below .5 (having identified him via a thread re missing gear) and asked him to phone the police with any info, which he did.
 The Grist 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

I am sure this has already been looked at but it would be helpful to know what routes were on Tim and Rachel's wish list. I just looked on the ukc profiles. Tim's is open (and contains no Ben Nevis routes) but Rachel's is hidden. Perhaps the moderator would look at Rachel's and see if there are any Ben Nevis routes listed that we know would have been in condition to climb.
Also....I do know both Tim and Rachel and I am sure they would have got up early on Saturday. I can not believe they were setting out to do a route at midday. They would both have been psyched to have been first to the route. Same goes for Sunday. Although they may have been heading for a shorter route (as is natural on a Sunday when they have to drive home).

 Martin Hore 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Mark Grist:

>I can not believe they were setting out to do a route at midday.

Mark

Not sure if you've read the whole thread, but Patrick Roman is very confident he saw them at the CIC Hut Midday Saturday, quite possibly having already done one route, or having retreated because of conditions. A possible (probable) scenario is that they were setting out at midday to try a second route.

See Patrick's posts at 23.29 Monday and 16.00 onwards yesterday.

Martin
 The Grist 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin Hore:

Hi Martin,

Yes I have read the whole thread. Yes it is possible they were doing a second route. I guess I meant it is unlikely they were doing a first route at that time. They certainly would not have been starting a big route like Gemini though. A shorter / less involved route would be a possibility. I know from Rachel's blog they did a second route after point 5 (two step) so they certainly had it in them to do that.

I was not on the Ben last weekend. It is my understanding the weather was quite clear on the Saturday but not so clear on the Sunday. Obviously any Avalanche / accident could have been seen better on the Saturday meaning maybe it is more likely to have happened on the Sunday. Unless it was late on the Saturday (after a second route).

Sorry......if I am not being helpful. It is my intention to help as is the case with everyone. Thanks for your input.
 Mountain Llama 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Mark Grist:
latest from MRT

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=952090888173448
Post edited at 20:41
1
 Martin Hore 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Mark Grist:

Sorry Mark - didn't mean to imply any criticism at all. Everyone has been really constructive on this thread and there's a lot of information and analysis that might possibly help the Lochaber team when they set out again tomorrow. Plus all those with first hand info have been encouraged to phone it in.

Martin
 beckycoles 19 Feb 2016
In reply to David Myatt:

I climbed The Great Chimney with a mate, Stu, on Saturday, so I think it was probably us. We saw you below. We finished up Tower Ridge and descended no. 4 late in the day. We didn't see anyone of Rachel and Tim's description.
 The Grist 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin
No problem Martin. It seems terrible to speculate but if it assists the search crews I will try. On the evidence it seems possible they did a second route in the castle area. Maybe waterfall gully for example. Then they would have headed to no 4 gully to descend late on. An incident may have occurred on the descent. It would have been late which explains why nobody saw it.
Best of luck to all the search crews tomorrow.
 t__her6 19 Feb 2016
Just for peace of mind - Was Rachel certainly wearing a purple helmet? I went through all my photos from the weekend with a toothpick(zooming in on everything)and came across this image taken about 12pm on sat and I just wanted to make sure this wasn't them and clear my mind of any doubts. Sorry if this isn't any help.

this is the cropped image, can post full if it might help aswell. The description fits besides the females helmet colour.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=72388E50E3BC5F0E!1081&authkey=!AL...
 Martin Hore 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Mark Grist:

> I am sure this has already been looked at but it would be helpful to know what routes were on Tim and Rachel's wish list. I just looked on the ukc profiles. Tim's is open (and contains no Ben Nevis routes) but Rachel's is hidden. Perhaps the moderator would look at Rachel's and see if there are any Ben Nevis routes listed that we know would have been in condition to climb.

Mark

Didn't pick up on this earlier - a good point. I've just emailed Jack G , Paul P and Alan J suggesting they check your post and do as you suggest. Good chance they've done so already of course as you say.

Martin
 Oli2 19 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Hi all. I've not posted until now as I didn't realise the search was considering Castle coire area. I haven't logged it but I climbed Castle Ridge on Sunday 14th. Didn't see anything in the coire below. Also, had a look around to see what was in, i.e Boomer's/The Shroud/The Castle and didn't see anything.
Arrived in Castle coire at 8am Sunday, had a good view of the area from the ridge up until 12.
I realise this isn't a positive sighting but hope it might narrow things down a little. I have called 101 and passed this and more on.
My thoughts and prayers to the families and friends of the climbers.
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Simon Richardson:

> A party who climbed Castle Ridge on the 14th reported on UKC logbook that the descent back to Lochan Meall an t-Suidhe as being rather avalanche prone).

The lochan area was searched earlier in the week.
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to t__her6:

Any chance of reposting that image in a different format? I just get a blank screen when I click on the link. Thanks.
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Mark Grist:

> On the evidence it seems possible they did a second route in the castle area. Maybe waterfall gully for example. Then they would have headed to no 4 gully to descend late on. An incident may have occurred on the descent. It would have been late which explains why nobody saw it.

No. 4, and around there, has also been searched already.
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Oli2:

> Hi all. I've not posted until now as I didn't realise the search was considering Castle coire area. I haven't logged it but I climbed Castle Ridge on Sunday 14th. Didn't see anything in the coire below. Also, had a look around to see what was in, i.e Boomer's/The Shroud/The Castle and didn't see anything.

> Arrived in Castle coire at 8am Sunday, had a good view of the area from the ridge up until 12.

> I realise this isn't a positive sighting but hope it might narrow things down a little. I have called 101 and passed this and more on.

> My thoughts and prayers to the families and friends of the climbers.

That's all helpful information, much appreciated.
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Mark Grist:

> Yes it is possible they were doing a second route. I guess I meant it is unlikely they were doing a first route at that time. They certainly would not have been starting a big route like Gemini though. A shorter / less involved route would be a possibility. I know from Rachel's blog they did a second route after point 5 (two step) so they certainly had it in them to do that.

My feeling, as I mentioned above, is that they had already been out climbing on Saturday morning. Being at the CIC at 1200 ties in perfectly with their previous experience on the Ben when they completed Point Five at 1030 (which would be around 1200 if you descended at a casual pace). People tend to follow previous routines if they worked before. Rachel mentioned in her blog entry for their Point Five day that she knew "Tim would be keen to do at least 2 routes", so again this suggests that they had planned to do something on Saturday afternoon.

Whether or not they completed a route in the morning, or retreated from one, is I guess irrelevant. But I agree that it's highly unlikely that they would have attempted Gemini when they probably couldn't even have been able to start up the route until around 1330/1400 (c. 3.5 hours before dark).

Assuming they did head up towards the Gemini/Waterfall Gully area though, it's possible that Peter Milner (above) would have seen them, as he reported approaching Waterfall Gully and witnessing the ice fall at around 1330. I can't see for a second how Rachel and Tim could both have been established out of sight above the initial pitches of WG by 1330 having left the CIC at 1200. Furthermore, if you're approaching that area from below the CIC the tendency would be to head directly up to beneath The Castle, then traverse left beneath Compression Crack, Boomer's, Harrison's and The Shroud. Doing that, it's perfectly feasible that you wouldn't arrive at WG until well after 1330, by which point Peter and his partner had retreated. So, they may have started up WG when no-one else was there, and with the Italians even higher on Shield Direct. I think the whole area above WG i.e. the snow field and the mixed ground, is worth searching, and the LMRT agreed with this when I spoke with them on Thursday.
 t__her6 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:
I have re-uploaded it to google cloud.

Cropped image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B88p--XR0FsEZHFFY2VMLXpwU2s/view?usp=shari...

Full size image and drew around the area which was cropped to give an understanding of the route the teams may have been on(waterfall gully ? just looked at my guidebook): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B88p--XR0FsEMUxqWXNacDNhUzA/view?usp=shari...
Post edited at 01:21
 planetmarshall 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

> I think the whole area above WG i.e. the snow field and the mixed ground, is worth searching, and the LMRT agreed with this when I spoke with them on Thursday.

Waterfall Gully has been climbed several times since the weekend (including by me), though I abbed off at about 60m. If it was their second route of the day, it seems likely that they would also take this option, particularly since the upper pitches would hold little of interest to them.

 The Grist 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

The only other suggestion I have is that it is possible that after doing a late route in the castle area on the Saturday they decided against descending number 4 gully and instead headed for the zig zags. I recall I did this when I climbed both Gemini and boomers requiem. I realise they would have been returning to their tent but they could have been aiming to descend the zig zags and skirt underneath the castle back to their tent. There are a few potentially nasty slopes on the way to the zig zags from the top of the castle. However, it feels safer than going down number 4.
Fingers crossed for today's search.
 Martin Hore 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Mark

> Didn't pick up on this earlier - a good point. I've just emailed Jack G , Paul P and Alan J suggesting they check your post and do as you suggest. Good chance they've done so already of course as you say.

Alan James and Paul Phillips both responded to me. They have already checked Rachel's wish list and reported to Fort William police earlier in the week. But there were no routes on Ben Nevis on her wish list. So no leads from there I'm afraid.

Martin

Dmg 20 Feb 2016

Hi, I'm not into climbing but have been following the story. I'm not familiar with the area at all but someone mentioned a river crossing further up in the posts. Is there any chance they may have gotten into trouble on the river & never made it to the climb? Would it be a risky river & what was it like that weekend? Just throwing it out there as a thought.

Really hope they're found safe.
Post edited at 11:03
 Allovesclimbin 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Martin Hore:

A generic reply to the thread in general : we decided on a relatively safe route for Saturday having been spooked by the snow under trident area. After a battle up to the CIC ( windy!) we set off up Ledge route I guess around 10 am . A lot of teams seemed to be provaricating due to the high wind as well as snow conditions , could this have delayed them ? We took a right detour early on the route to climb some nice ice falls and add interest before going up to join the route at the pinnacle block . Several teams below us and one I think did what we did I guess to add interest and avoid people? I remember looking down ( when wind allowed!) several times high on the route thinking there did not seem to be many following teams and wondering why . The snow was dodgy and wind high , a dangerous combination. Could they have done a late ' ledge route variation'? As a finisher or a late start route. Just some thoughts.
 skog 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Dmg:

It isn't much of a river, it's hard to imagine two people getting in trouble crossing it.

http://www.smc.org.uk/huts/Images/cichut2011.jpg

At this stage I would have thought that the main hope would be that they are no longer on Ben Nevis at all - for whatever reason.
 Captain Solo 20 Feb 2016
In reply to planetmarshall:
Remembering that if they did continue up waterfall gully the best descent is to cut across to ledge route and descend that. This of course would include the very bottom of no 5 which could have been dodgy.
Edit - but as you say 2nd route of day unlikely to carry on up.
Post edited at 11:05
 David Cowley 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Just a suggestion on the subject, forgive me if it's already been mentioned or searched just wanted to share any ideas really

Say they made the unlikely decision of a trip along the CMD and they topped out in the dark or severely bad weather or visibility. Could there be a chance they could have decided to head for the zig zags due to the avalanche risk in No.4 gully and tragically ended up in finger five gully on the other side of the mountain or even gardyloo gully

Just a thoughti wanted to share incase it hadn't been thought or mentioned

David
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Mark Grist:

> The only other suggestion I have is that it is possible that after doing a late route in the castle area on the Saturday they decided against descending number 4 gully and instead headed for the zig zags. I recall I did this when I climbed both Gemini and boomers requiem. I realise they would have been returning to their tent but they could have been aiming to descend the zig zags and skirt underneath the castle back to their tent. There are a few potentially nasty slopes on the way to the zig zags from the top of the castle. However, it feels safer than going down number 4.

I agree that an alternative descent could have been on their mind if they topped out above Carn Dearg Buttress/the Castle area.
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to David Cowley:

> Say they made the unlikely decision of a trip along the CMD and they topped out in the dark or severely bad weather or visibility. Could there be a chance they could have decided to head for the zig zags due to the avalanche risk in No.4 gully and tragically ended up in finger five gully on the other side of the mountain or even gardyloo gully

It's definitely a possibility of course if they found themselves on the summit (by whatever route).
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Waterfall Gully has been climbed several times since the weekend (including by me), though I abbed off at about 60m. If it was their second route of the day, it seems likely that they would also take this option, particularly since the upper pitches would hold little of interest to them.

I tend to agree, but if they did ab off then something else must have happened?
 malk 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Captain Solo:

scott's logbook entry from 10th confirms the traverse to ledge route to be hairy/dodgy in several places Waterfall Gully (IV 4)
 chris fox 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Hope I'm not stating the obvious but does either of them have an iPhone. Isn't there a find my device option on those. Could pin point their location (or if the battery is flat their last recorded location).
 Mr. Lee 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

> I agree that an alternative descent could have been on their mind if they topped out above Carn Dearg Buttress/the Castle area.

When number 4 gully has been unsafe I've descended directly from the Carn Dearg Buttress/the Castle area down the Western slopes of Ben Nevis to the path at Lochan Meall An T-suidhe. It's much shorter/direct than the tourist trail. I've personally found it easier to navigate, given no change in bearing needed and already at the Western end of the summit.
LakeDistrictMountaineer 20 Feb 2016
In reply to chris fox:

Police can use cell sighting on all makes of mobile phones but the phone has to be on and working I believe.
 Patrick Roman 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Mr. Lee:

> When number 4 gully has been unsafe I've descended directly from the Carn Dearg Buttress/the Castle area down the Western slopes of Ben Nevis to the path at Lochan Meall An T-suidhe. It's much shorter/direct than the tourist trail. I've personally found it easier to navigate, given no change in bearing needed and already at the Western end of the summit.

I've never had to do that but it's probably what I'd try to do if I couldn't use No. 4 or Ledge Route. I noticed the halfway lochan area had been searched at the beginning of the week, which I thought was a good call. I think the rescue teams have made the most logical decisions so far in terms of their search areas. If the Carn Dearg Buttress/Castle area turns up nothing, I can only think of the ground either side of the CMD arete and some of the summit gullies as being the next most logical.
 planetmarshall 20 Feb 2016
In reply to chris fox:

> Hope I'm not stating the obvious but does either of them have an iPhone. Isn't there a find my device option on those.

SARLOC and other electronic positioning methods would have been among the first things tried, unfortunately.
 doc_h 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Mr. Lee:

> When number 4 gully has been unsafe I've descended directly from the Carn Dearg Buttress/the Castle area down the Western slopes of Ben Nevis to the path at Lochan Meall An T-suidhe. It's much shorter/direct than the tourist trail. I've personally found it easier to navigate, given no change in bearing needed and already at the Western end of the summit.

That's what my partner and I did on Sunday afternoon after doing Castle Ridge, then we dropped back down to Allt a'Mhuilinn. Descent slopes were a bit avalanche prone with soft snow to full depth of axe but better than number 4 would have been. We noticed an abandoned sling on the ridge just before the crux chimney (seemed recent but was jammed) that could have been placed either as a belay for the chimney or else used to ab off to the north. Given the abilities of these two though I doubt they would have needed to ab off anywhere on that route even if they were on it.
 petegunn 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Has everyone that was out over the weekend especially Monday 15th looked at their photos?
It was such a clear bright day on monday that you should be able to see signs of avalanche debris etc
 doc_h 20 Feb 2016
In reply to petegunn:
I saw no obvious evidence of recent avalanche debris in the north face area on Sunday morning, although the risk of one was definitely considerable. But there was quite a bit of spindrift and new snow that may have disguised it. By the afternoon the spindrift was too high and the cloud too low to see anything above 600m.
Post edited at 18:32
1
 Joe Barlow 20 Feb 2016
In reply to Simon Richardson:
I was climbing on the Saturday. We did waterfall gully and abbed off after the first pitch to be done by 10am, we then went on to do ledge route and top out at 12. I walked passed Renzo gearing up at the bottom of The shield. Not sure if it was us he saw on waterfall gully or if it was the two Czech guys that got on it just after us. I am fairly sure we were the first people on the route that day. This is probably totally irrelevant but I found a new orange petzl reverso and wild country crab under waterfall gully, they were nearly completely burried in the snow, just poking out. Whilst leading waterfall gully i do remember looking behind me and seeing someone walking round to the castle gully area, but i really can't remember what they looked like unfortunately.

Sorry nothing of much help, just what i saw on the day.
Joe
Post edited at 19:29
 Jim Fraser 20 Feb 2016
In reply to chris fox:
> Hope I'm not stating the obvious but does either of them have an iPhone. Isn't there a find my device option on those. Could pin point their location (or if the battery is flat their last recorded location).


Oh, if it were that simple. Most location systems have problems in mountainous terrain. I have been on searches where mobile pings have been 14km out and seen GPS indicate the wrong glen because of the angle of the portion of sky available to the receiver.

Russ Hore's SARLOC has been mentioned and it is very good but that requires a lost person to click a link sent to them in a text message.

Manuel Genswein is a Swiss avalanche rescue specialist and has been working on mobile phone detection devices but, as far as I know, these are not yet fully developed. It is hoped that one day such devices can be fitted to rescue helicopters.

Meanwhile.
http://backcountryaccess.com/product-category/avalanche-transceivers/
http://www.ortovox.com/uk/shop/avalanche-emergency-equipment/avalanche-tran...
http://www.mammut.ch/US/en_US/B2C-Category/Equipment/Avalanche-Safety/Barry...
Post edited at 20:34
 Patrick Roman 21 Feb 2016
LMRT are asking for anyone who is climbing on the Ben this coming week to let them know what routes you climbed/attempted and any other areas you may have visited. Please post your details on their Facebook page, but doubling the information up on this thread is probably a good idea too.

I'm sure those heading out tomorrow are already aware, but just to say that the avalanche forecast for tomorrow is HIGH:

http://www.sais.gov.uk/lochaber/5737/


This from the LMRT's Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/lochabermrt/?ref=ts&fref=ts

"Search for Rachel and Tim.

The weather next week is looking a little bit better than last. The winds look like they will be moderating a bit as temperatures drop. Snow is forecast every day with periods of heavy snow adding to the existing snow pack. The team will try and get parties on the hill most days.

We would ask anyone who plans to climb on the Ben this week to post on our Facebook page the areas they were climbing and the routes done. This will help us eliminate parts of the mountain.

The two casualties from last night lost gear on the summit in case anyone comes across rucksack/axes/rope close to summit shelter.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed over the last week."
 ScottTalbot 22 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Bump.
 JadeL 23 Feb 2016
In reply to t__her6:


> Full size image and drew around the area which was cropped to give an understanding of the route the teams may have been on(waterfall gully ? just looked at my guidebook): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B88p--XR0FsEMUxqWXNacDNhUzA/view?usp=shari...

I'm sorry if I missed a reply to this and it has been written off already, but to me the couple on the right of this photo could be Rachel and Tim? Red Jacket and Blue/turquoise jacket?? If the person in Blue is indeed Rachel, t_her6 is correct that she isn't wearing a purple helmet. Can anyone who knows them an their climbing attire well definitely rule out that this isn't them?? Rachel doesn't have a spare or new white helmet? Or a yellow hat if she has taken her purple helmet off briefly for whatever reason (unlikely I know at the base of the crag given their experience). It just really jumped out to me as useful information and I would hate for this to be over-looked. Can someone reply to this photo posting?

I first knew Rachel briefly when we both lived in Manchester, we never got to know each other very well but our paths crossed many times at crags and in the direction we took our lives, we both lived in Glasgow for a while after Manchester and now I live in Squamish where I know Rachel spent some time. I know we have lots of friends in common from all these cross-overs and I really hope they are both found soon.

Please someone rule out this photo?
 Patrick Roman 23 Feb 2016
In reply to JadeL:

> Can anyone who knows them an their climbing attire well definitely rule out that this isn't them??

That is definitely NOT the jacket that Rachel was wearing when I met her and Tim outside the CIC. She wasn't wearing a blue jacket, but a green and turquoise jacket. It was two tone, PRECISELY the same as the jacket she's wearing in the news photos.

I'm following every response on this thread and elsewhere. Believe me, if there is anything I think is even remotely relevant I'll post it. Thanks for bringing it up though, better to do so than sit there wondering if you should or not.
 SenzuBean 23 Feb 2016
In reply to JadeL:
To my eyes, the blue figure is too bulky and tall (measure the upper torso, look at the legs) to be a slender woman, and appears to be a man. Tim does appear also to have a yellow helmet in photos. The red figure has their helmet covered - so could be any colour underneath. It might be a belay jacket?
Rachel has a red jacket underneath the turquoise jacket in the publicized photos too,
Post edited at 09:11
 Patrick Roman 23 Feb 2016
In reply to JadeL:

Just to add, and perhaps this is why I didn't respond to it originally, that photo of the two teams below Waterfall Gully was taken "about 12pm on sat". Tim and Rachel were outside the CIC at 12pm on Saturday. When I began walking away from the hut, it was exactly 12.03pm, and they had just left to walk down the path.
 SenzuBean 23 Feb 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:
> To my eyes, the blue figure is too bulky and tall (measure the upper torso, look at the legs) to be a slender woman, and appears to be a man. Tim does appear also to have a yellow helmet in photos. The red figure has their helmet covered - so could be any colour underneath. It might be a belay jacket?

> Rachel has a red jacket underneath the turquoise jacket in the publicized photos too,

On a PC now. As you can see on this photo, Tim owns a yellow helmet, and Rachel's red softshell pokes out too:
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/12187/production/_88291147_88291...

And on this photo, Tim does possess a blue belay jacket/softshell:
https://rachslater.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/img_9734.jpg

Looking at the photo of the unidentified climbers, it appears to me that the red climber is going to lead, as they appear to have a much fuller rack. If so, then the blue jacket could be Tim's belay jacket?

I don't mean to speculate, but I just want to make sure that the photo is ruled out fully.
Post edited at 10:20
 Toerag 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Is there phone reception in the area? Have call / network logs been examined to find out when they last made/received calls & texts, and when their phones were last logged onto a network? It may not tell the MRT much, but more info is potentially more useful.
 Patrick Roman 23 Feb 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

I understand the need to double check the clothing, but like I said above they were by the CIC at 12pm when that photo was taken.

That's not to say that they didn't head up to Waterfall Gully later on however.
 SenzuBean 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:
> I understand the need to double check the clothing, but like I said above they were by the CIC at 12pm when that photo was taken.

> That's not to say that they didn't head up to Waterfall Gully later on however.

The poster of that photo said around 12pm: "and came across this image taken about 12pm on sat"

I'd like to get it clarified as to a time range, and how confident of the time they are (i.e. maybe it was 12:30pm, or 12:40pm). Also I don't know the area well personally - how long would it take a fit party to reach the bottom of Waterfall gully from the CIC hut?
Post edited at 11:04
 Patrick Roman 23 Feb 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

This is a copy and paste of one of my responses above:

Assuming they did head up towards the Gemini/Waterfall Gully area though, it's possible that Peter Milner (above) would have seen them, as he reported approaching Waterfall Gully and witnessing the ice fall at around 1330. I can't see for a second how Rachel and Tim could both have been established out of sight above the initial pitches of WG by 1330 having left the CIC at 1200. Furthermore, if you're approaching that area from below the CIC the tendency would be to head directly up to beneath The Castle, then traverse left beneath Compression Crack, Boomer's, Harrison's and The Shroud. Doing that, it's perfectly feasible that you wouldn't arrive at WG until well after 1330, by which point Peter and his partner had retreated. So, they may have started up WG when no-one else was there, and with the Italians even higher on Shield Direct.
 SenzuBean 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

> This is a copy and paste of one of my responses above:

> Assuming they did head up towards the Gemini/Waterfall Gully area though, it's possible that Peter Milner (above) would have seen them, as he reported approaching Waterfall Gully and witnessing the ice fall at around 1330. I can't see for a second how Rachel and Tim could both have been established out of sight above the initial pitches of WG by 1330 having left the CIC at 1200. Furthermore, if you're approaching that area from below the CIC the tendency would be to head directly up to beneath The Castle, then traverse left beneath Compression Crack, Boomer's, Harrison's and The Shroud. Doing that, it's perfectly feasible that you wouldn't arrive at WG until well after 1330, by which point Peter and his partner had retreated. So, they may have started up WG when no-one else was there, and with the Italians even higher on Shield Direct.

Okay cheers, I hadn't remembered you'd already wrote that. That does sound like there's almost no margin to allow for them to be there at the time the photo was taken.
1
 Ava Adore 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

bump
 NathanP 23 Feb 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

Two points:
- The time for the photo could be off - I for one have a shockingly bad internal clock when I'm out climbing and the camera could be set to the wrong time.
- Assuming the time is correct and it can't be Tim and Rachel, do we know who is in the photo? Two pairs waiting for the same route - would the second of the second pair still have been around by the time Tim and Rachel would have got to that area after leaving the CIC at 12:00? If so then maybe they saw something or, if not, they can rule out that immediate area.
 SenzuBean 23 Feb 2016
 nclarey 23 Feb 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

There's also a fifth person by themselves in the photo, left of centre if you follow the foot of the mountain. Tan or yellow jacket, hard to tell.
 SenzuBean 23 Feb 2016
In reply to nclarey:
> There's also a fifth person by themselves in the photo, left of centre if you follow the foot of the mountain. Tan or yellow jacket, hard to tell.

Ah laser eyes man!
Almost certainly it's Renzo - you can see the orange backpack and yellow helmet matches. He replied indirectly earlier in the thread. Don't know where his partner is though.

Photo of Renzo leading Shield Direct, which you can see quite clearly on the zoomed out photo.
http://www.scottishwinter.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/16Feb2016_Ben-Nevi...
Post edited at 15:03
 malk 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

> Assuming they did head up towards the Gemini/Waterfall Gully area though

there seems to be no evidence that they did? why could they not have gone up to eg orion/observatory/hadrians?
 malk 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:
did they climb .5 last year? and wouldn't they likely return to that area of the mountain to explore other routes? (particularly as mentioned Tim studied physics and has astro themes in his logbook)
Post edited at 15:47
 JR 23 Feb 2016
In reply to malk:

> did they climb .5 last year?

yes, they climbed it one pitch in front of me late March (on a perfect Ben Nevis weather day)

 Patrick Roman 23 Feb 2016
In reply to malk:

> there seems to be no evidence that they did? why could they not have gone up to eg orion/observatory/hadrians?

It's all down to best guesses based on the fact that they were last spotted walking in the OPPOSITE direction to Observatory Gully.

For all I know (and, it seems, anybody else) they could have returned to their tent on Saturday night and gone climbing on an entirely different part of the mountain on the Sunday.
 nclarey 23 Feb 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

Awesome, agreed that certainly looks to be him.
 malk 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

ahh missed that- that's certain is it?
 Patrick Roman 23 Feb 2016
In reply to malk:

> did they climb .5 last year? and wouldn't they likely return to that area of the mountain to explore other routes? (particularly as mentioned Tim studied physics and has astro themes in his logbook)

They perhaps did on the Saturday morning. As I've mentioned before in this thread, when they did Point Five they rose at 4.30am and were first on the route. It's not unrealistic to think they could have gone into Observatory Gully on Saturday morning and returned to the CIC at midday. That said, they may have been spooked by conditions there (or elsewhere), which is why they decided to walk away from the CIC on the path at the beginning of the afternoon. Remember that a team were badly shaken on Saturday after being avalanched from the bottom of Point Five down to the Douglas Boulder. And they weren't the only ones unnerved on Saturday.
 Patrick Roman 23 Feb 2016
In reply to malk:

> ahh missed that- that's certain is it?

That they were walking back down the path, away from the hut? Yes, I watched them.
 mike barnard 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

All speculation of course but if they did go for a 2nd route on the saturday they are unlikely to have started it much before 1pm. A late finish in the dark would seem a strong possibility with added potential for errors on the descent (Five Finger, Coire Eoghainn etc).
 steelbru 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

From Lochaber MRT Facebook page :

Did anyone leave a rope on Slab Climb on South Trident Buttress recently? if you did can you call Police Scotland on 101 and ask for Fort William police. We need to eliminate this from our search. Please forward to anyone you know has been climbing on Ben Nevis in last 2 weeks. Thanks
 steelbru 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Further info on the colour of the rope which may be useful, also on Facebook :

"Climbed The Slab Climb on South Trident Buttress. A new looking purple rope was found hanging down the Slab and stuck in a crack but no other signs. (Chris and Mike)"
 jonnie3430 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Mountain Llama:

That was there when I did the Clanger on 11/02. It looks from your post that it's already been discounted.
 Martin Hore 23 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

> For all I know (and, it seems, anybody else) they could have returned to their tent on Saturday night and gone climbing on an entirely different part of the mountain on the Sunday.

I've mentioned this before I know. I presume the contents of their tent have been checked. No or very little food in it would suggest they returned to it Saturday and went out again Sunday. If the incident happened Saturday then the tent should contain food for Saturday evening's meal. Not conclusive evidence I know, but perhaps worth bearing in mind.

Martin


 SenzuBean 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Search resuming today:

Lochaber and RAF Valley Teams heading out to Ben Nevis again today.

Again we would appeal to climbers to post information of the routes they have completed so that we can record. If you can also report any of gear on routes such as the sightings like the rope seen yesterday on Slab Climb. Keep your eyes open as there maybe small clues which could be important.

We are grateful for all the messages of support and help received so far. Keep it up and help us get a result soon.

Thank you.


https://www.facebook.com/lochabermrt/photos/a.158800130835865.29312.1267305...
 Tony the Blade 24 Feb 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

Fingers (and everything else) crossed, hoping for a positive result and an epic blog entry from Rachel &Tim.
 Shapeshifter 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Patrick Roman:

Been following this thread with genuine anguish and fingers crossed and I apologise in advance if this is a daft query.

I don't know the Carn Dearg topography well and I just wondered given the later starting time for them and the conditions on the Saturday afternoon, if Tim and Rachel had opted to do something easier that they could move quickly on like Ledge Route, might they have opted to come down No.5 Gully. At least from UKC logbooks it looks like nobody has logged it for a few weeks and those who did Ledge route that day and subsequent days used other descents. Also if they started later they may have been last on the route.

Does anybody know whether No.5 gully is avalanche prone and if that area has been searched?

Again sorry if I've lost the plot on this and happy to be flamed if so.
 kwoods 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Shapeshifter:
> Does anybody know whether No.5 gully is avalanche prone and if that area has been searched?

I believe it has some reputation for avalanche, but maybe as much for affecting the start of Ledge Route which crosses it near it's foot.
Post edited at 19:41
 ashtond6 24 Feb 2016
In reply to Shapeshifter:

No5 gully is definitely avalanche prone. Debris when I've been there and I believe it's mentioned in the guide
 nclarey 25 Feb 2016
In reply to ashtond6:

New request from Lochaber MRT this morning from their Facebook page:

"Did anyone climb Hadrian's or any route in this general vicinity on Saturday 13th? If you did Point Five or any routes nearby, did you see any climbers on any climbs in Hadrian's area? Post message here if you have info. Thanks"
 Mike Conlon 25 Feb 2016
In reply to nclarey: Well done for posting but just to clarify for others, "post message here" refers to Lochaber MRT's fb page !
 CurlyStevo 25 Feb 2016
In reply to kwoods:

> I believe it has some reputation for avalanche, but maybe as much for affecting the start of Ledge Route which crosses it near it's foot.

No'5 is possibly the most avalanche prone gully on the Ben isn't it?
 malk 25 Feb 2016
In reply to nclarey:
Hadrian's seems to be the next most popular climb of that grade after .5 in that area. last recorded ukc logbook ascent 10 Feb (similarly for observatory ridge). very few (if any?) entries for other climbs in that area this year? (nothing on orion face?)
if they were planning to return to the .5 area this year, they prob would have searched for recent ascents on ukc?
is hadrian's visible from .5?
Post edited at 12:44
 NottsRich 25 Feb 2016
In reply to malk:

> is hadrian's visible from .5?

Hadrian's Wall Direct is right next door to Point Five Gully, well within sight.

 drunken monkey 25 Feb 2016
In reply to Shapeshifter:

No5 Gully is a notorious avalanche trap because of the huge fan high above it. Anything coming down there ends up emptying out into Coire na Ciste near the foot of ledge Route/the curtain.

Very common for avalanche debris below here.
 Shapeshifter 26 Feb 2016
In reply to drunken monkey:

Thanks to those who replied with info about my post on No.5 Gully - I did pass on the thoughts and comments to LMRT just FYI
In reply to Olli-C:

Just giving this thread a hopefully helpful bump to keep it in front of people.

T.
 Graham Booth 27 Feb 2016
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Still desperately hoping for a happy outcome to this

Living in the Bradford area I have watched Rachel's climbing exploits with interest

Best wishes to the family
 JJL 27 Feb 2016
In reply to Graham Booth:

I've hoped against hope for the past several days, but sadly I fear the issue is recovery now; not rescue.

Yesterday and today were beautiful conditions, judging by the webcam. So I think several possibilities are now exhausted.

I just hope it can all be resolved quickly for the families - who I know the rescue teams will have kept apprised of the propsects, however disheartening.
3
 Tony Walker 27 Feb 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Thank you for all your thoughts and best wishes . Rachel's Auntie Rachel x
 elliott92 27 Feb 2016
In reply to Tony Walker:

Thoughts are with you and your family at the moment rachel
 Tony the Blade 28 Feb 2016
In reply to Tony Walker:

Don't really know what to say, but still thinking, hoping and wishing for a positive outcome.

Thinking of you and yours, Rachel.
 Tony Walker 28 Feb 2016
In reply to Tony the Blade:

Thanks. The mountain rescue teams have been amazing going out day after day searching for them. They are a bunch of great people!- Rachel
 Mr. Lee 21 Mar 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Ice axe found below the Shroud/Boomers Requiem area. If anyone lost an axe in that area then they should contact the police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-35861646
 Stu Tyrrell 21 Mar 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

bump
 el cholo 22 Mar 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

I found a belay jacket on the approach to Castle ridge, already reported it to LMRT.
LakeDistrictMountaineer 23 Mar 2016
Latest news from approx 30 minutes ago is two bodies have been found. This was from BBC News.

No further details as in identity or locations yet.
 ScottTalbot 23 Mar 2016
In reply to adman29:

Very sad! I hope it can bring some sort of closure to the relatives though.
 gethin_allen 23 Mar 2016
In reply to adman29:

Terribly sad news, but I guess we all knew it was coming at some point.
1
In reply to adman29:

Good, bad news. Thoughts are with those who held them dear.

T.
 Martin Hore 24 Mar 2016
In reply to adman29:

Thinking of Rachel and Tim's family and friends this morning.
 wercat 24 Mar 2016
In reply to Olli-C:

Very very sad news indeed.
 The Ivanator 24 Mar 2016

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