Advice - easy routes near Fort Bill this weekend

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 glenthemole 03 Feb 2016
Hi - I'm heading up tomorrow evening with my GF to Fort William for a long weekend and given the scary looking weather forecasts was looking for a bit of advice...

We're pretty comfortable on grade 3 summer scrambles (largely soloed), we spent a few days out in Chamonix last summer with a guide and looking to get teeth stuck into some Scottish winter - bought crampons, ice axe and read a book - classic all the gear and no idea! Did a quick wizz round the Snowdon Horseshoe last weekend, was a bit icy but the crampons didn't actually come out of the rucksack.

So - was thinking of some classic I/II ridges and gullies - any specific recommendations? Is it better to stay lower given the high winds forecast?

Thanks in advance, G
 Offwidth 04 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

Get someone you know who has experince to take you out, or hire a guide. Lochaber is no place to self-teach as a beginner, as most of the high mountains need experience to get off safely in bad weather. Ben Nevis has an easy path but can be a death trap for those unable to winter navigate if the weather turns.
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 jonnie3430 04 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

Getting out is important, regardless of grade, just to play on crampons so you are confident and not cutting up your waterproofs. Ice axe arrest needs practised too, and you need to figure out your clothing so you are warm and dry. All takes a wee bit of time out on the hill in winter. Have a look at this http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=633094&v=1#x8218879 if you want more steep stuff for practise then you can look for steeper bits off the path. Classics like broad gully and dorsal arete are classics for a reason.
OP glenthemole 04 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:
Fair enough - think I was a bit self deprecating - I have done a couple of days out with a guide up in Chamonix and I know it's not Scotland but I'd hope the basic skills are transferrable. I am used to being out in the mountains in bad weather, but admittedly not in the snow. I'm a reasonable map reader with a GPS as backup so hope I'm not complete liability. You have to start somewhere right?
Post edited at 08:48
OP glenthemole 04 Feb 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

Thanks for the pointer to that thread - some good suggestions. Will also look for a patch of snow to practice self-belay, self arrest etc
 paulh.0776 04 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

What ever you do don't be put off, if you've never seen the North Face of the Ben go and take a look, it'll either inspire you or spook you ...always set off early in Scotland, the days are longer than you think!
And if its your first time in the Scottish mountains in winter grab a guide for the day, they're worth every penny and split between two not that expensive. You'll learn more, stay safer, climb at a higher grade and gain more confidence than if you go and out on your own. Try Ken Applegate at West Coast Mountain Guides, Paddy Cave at Mountain Circles, and Richard Bentley but there are lots of great guides up there.
 CurlyStevo 04 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

make sure you understand the basic principles of avalanche awareness. The most basic of which is watch the wind directions on http://www.mwis.org.uk/mountain forecast, if they are about 20mph and it hasn't recently thawed they will be pulling snow off the aspects that face in to the wind and depositing it on to aspects in lee of the wind as wind slab. Cornices and gullies (mostly at the top of gullies in many locations) can be especially prone to being unstable in this case but also large snow fields (often found below (crag aprons) and above (scarp slopes) crags. Convex terrain is the worst but be wary of concave also in poor conditions. This site should help you http://www.sais.gov.uk/ . As an added bonus avoiding avalanche prone slopes (when climbing, and approaching / descending) often means you climb on more wind scoured aspects which will be icier and firmer and more fun!

Make sure you know how to navigate in a white out when you can literally see no terrain, everything is white!

Enjoy!

 GrantM 04 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

Did my first easy winter climbs last year - Boomerang, Broad, Forked and NC gullies on Stob Coire nan Lochan can be done in a day, Central Gully on Bidean, Summit Gully on Stob Coire nan Beith. All recommended and can be soloed in good condition. Finished up with Ledge Route on the Ben and descended over CMD Arete, a great day but that was in March when there was more daylight. As mentioned above, check weather and avalanche forecasts and look at what the locals are doing on the day.
 thomm 04 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:
Subject to getting a reasonable weather window and appropriate avalanche risks, you could try something like the walk over Stob Ban and Mullach nan Coirean from Glen Nevis. If the weather is very poor, just walking to the Steall falls from the end of the glen road is a lot better than nothing.
For graded/steep snow rather than a winter walk, something like Broad Gully on Stob Coire nan Lochan is a good starter. But frankly I'd rather do a nice winter walk, weather permitting - you'll still need that shiny new gear.
For a taste of something more adventurous you could walk up to the CIC hut but the easier Ben routes are likely to need more confidence/experience, whether the easy gullies (steep snow especially at the top) or something like Ledge Route (tricky slab near the beginning, and route-finding). As a self-teacher my first baby-step on the Ben was the traverse of the Douglas gap - reasonably sheltered and low but even that requires some confidence for the descent.

 DundeeDave 04 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

This website has some pretty good ideas

http://scottishwinterroutes.com/
 Offwidth 04 Feb 2016
In reply to DundeeDave:

Any ideas or suggestions need experience to judge conditions on the day. Easy routes can look OK but have hidden problems up above. My view is new climbers shouldn't be on graded routes on their own. A guide is a fantastic investment if you don't have an experienced friend.

I've still not done some 'easy' routes on the Ben because of avalanche risk and most have cornice problems (except Ledge Route, which has a start gully which funnels any avalanche from above, from east, north and west facing slopes). Also even if you finish the route safely on the Ben you then have to get off: we have rescued a few people lost on the plateau due to poor planning (this can be a real navigation test in cloud and wind so its best to know paces and bearings in advance).
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 jonnie3430 04 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

You'd never get out. My first winter route was an attempt at Savage Slit, I slid down the approach slope and skinned my knuckles, hence I recommend self arrest practise on suitable slope first. The second was D Gully Buttress, which didn't go as planned, but left lots of learning points. Just getting out there and having a look is more experience than they started with, they can turn round anytime they want with much more experience for getting the next time right.
 Offwidth 04 Feb 2016
In reply to jonnie3430:

I think the money I paid on a guide for an intro to scottish winter was the best I ever spent in climbing. We pay out all this cash for transport and risk wasting days if not months chasing the wrong routes (and risking our lives in the process) to save a hundred quid or so each. If you have an experienced mate who can help, lucky you... if not hire a guide.
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 jonnie3430 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

When did you do it? With the wonderful wealth of information in the digital era you can read it, instead of paying to be told it. The ngb books, Libby Peters rock climbing and its winter variation are excellent at displaying it and forums like these are great at answering niggling questions and giving condition advice.
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 jonnie3430 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

I'm going to nit pick on your use of guide as well, you did an intro to Scottish winter, which would be taught by an instructor. Guides or Mic's can do this, to me the act of guiding, which can be done by both as well, is that of getting a client up and down a route that they wouldn't be able to do unless they had a lot more experience and training.

Please don't forget our Mic's in Scotland!
 thomm 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:
> If you have an experienced mate who can help, lucky you... if not hire a guide.
That's a perfectly valid view but the OP should be aware that not everyone agrees. Self-teaching, with all its errors, slow progress, doubtful decisions and retreats, is part of the wonder of climbing for me.
 Babika 05 Feb 2016
In reply to thomm:

> Self-teaching, with all its errors, slow progress, doubtful decisions and retreats, is part of the wonder of climbing for me.


+1 from me

It always amazes me that someone on UKC asks for route recommendations and immediately gets a response saying "get a guide"
FFS can we just applaud self reliance for once?
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 Offwidth 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Babika:
For someone who has never climbed a winter route and wants to start in Lochaber that will ever remain my advice.

I'm a strong believer in self reliance and am mainly self taught as a rock climber but I've seen the difference between self taught and guide or friend introduced in winter. The benfits I had were from two days included: a very safe and super efficient introduction to the game; loads of advice on the equipment, snow conditions, weather etc; endless tips on what routes to do and when; and money saving advice on future gear purchases (which themselves pretty much paid for my expenditure on their own). In contrast, friends of mine who were self taught spent even more money than my guide fees inefficiently chasing conditions and getting less done (in what is already a pretty expensive version of the climbing game) and were often taking daft risks (sometimes oblivious to those risks) and purchased expensive and/ or crap kit. I also got to climb with a legend who became a friend and was able to put more business his way to efficently introduce beginners in my Uni club, whilst supporting the local Scottish climbing business community..

I can understand some have money to burn doing everything themselves and others enjoy falling off stuff and avalanche chasing. I just prefer value and efficiency and don't like Pepsi Max or Bear Grylls style bull, or macho posturing. I've also seen too much of what happens when you fall off a winter route and are not lucky enough to escape with cuts and grazes.
Post edited at 16:17
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 alpine69 05 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:
Hello ,
My view would be to get an already experienced winter climber to show you the ropes ( post on the lifts and partners forum ) or get a guide of its your first time. Self reliance will not do you any good if it goes wrong. Being taught the ways to explore winter are a far better way and more fun than self taught. The experience will be significantly better too. Looking at the last few days weather and the current forecast we could be in for weekend in the frog and gruel ( real ale pub in the fort ).
 jezb1 05 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

The Association of Mountaineering Instructors have a number of members working day in day out in the area, with a great knowledge of routes and conditions.

Check out our FB page: https://m.facebook.com/Association-of-Mountaineering-Instructors-1085018791...

And our website: http://www.mountain-training.org/associations/ami
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 Babika 05 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

> and was able to put more business his way... whilst supporting the local Scottish climbing business community..


The trouble is, the speed with which folk recommend guides on UKC leads me to believe that this is the nub of it

It makes you wonder how anybody got off the ground at all in the past
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 Offwidth 06 Feb 2016
In reply to Babika:
Exactly the way they do now. On their own, with mishaps, time-wasting and high risk, but way more often, much more safely and efficiently with an experienced friend or instructor of some sort. In the days of the internet climbing forum it's easier to find people who will help individuals (ie with no club contacts) for free just because they are kind or are in training for an award. Its plain dumb to celebrate a slower, riskier more expensive way to learn to UK winter climb. I have no financial benefit to declare from recommending the guides I used in Lochaber but I do recognise the quality of input they provided for me and the numerous students in my club over the two decades I was involved (they got an even better deal as the Uni paid part if the cost and the guides we used often kindly spent a lot of time in the evenings with us).
Post edited at 12:04
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OP glenthemole 06 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

Oops - didn't mean to kick off an argument about guides!

Meanwhile - we've done two great days. Yesterday went up Stob Ban via the North Ridge. Basically pissed it down all day but was good fun nevertheless. No snow until the final sections - reminded me of scrambling in Wales - absolutely everything soaked.

Dumped with snow overnight - went up Ben Nevis via CMD arête. Weather forecast said sunny spells but it lied. Blew an absolute gale most of the day. Was slow moving on the ridge due to the wind but felt like we got to experience a proper Scottish winter day. Long day out - last stretch to the car park by headtorch - but a great day, especially for the first time up Ben Nevis.

Think we'll head to Glen Coe tomorrow and do a couple of Munroes as its on the way back to Glasgow before heading down to London on the megabus sleeper (my favourite mode of transport). Great weekend so far!
James Jackson 06 Feb 2016
In reply to Babika:

>> Self-teaching, with all its errors, slow progress, doubtful decisions and retreats, is part of the wonder of climbing for me.

> +1 from me

> It always amazes me that someone on UKC asks for route recommendations and immediately gets a response saying "get a guide"

> FFS can we just applaud self reliance for once?

^ this. Sometimes this approach goes wrong, most of this time it doesn't. People generally look after themselves and are fine. When it goes wrong, it usually results in a epic, everybody learns, and individual skills get better. Sometimes it goes very badly wrong, but frankly that can happen to anybody. All the people I (used to?) know who have had serious incidents in the mountains are the experienced ones.

For decades people have self-taught. Sure you can accelerate certain aspects of learning by hiring guides etc but at some point you've got to be self-reliant.
 Sophie G. 06 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

I was going to say--"Why don't you have a go at the CMD arete?-- But if you need to retreat, retrace your steps, don't try getting off it either left or right if you want to avoid avalanche risk"-- but you seem to have worked this out for yourselves. Well done
 Offwidth 07 Feb 2016
In reply to James Jackson:

For decades most people have been introduced to scottish winter by other experienced climbers who save them money and time at reduced risk. Its a free choice we can make. Some people really enjoy independence and understand the consequencies and that's fine.

Experienced climbers adjust their risk level to meet their improving skills so sure their accident rates can be high but anyone who knows large numbers of those first moving into scottish winter climbing or alpine climbing knows the early years are by far the riskiest.
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 Offwidth 07 Feb 2016
In reply to Sophie G.:
I stopped recommending it.. I've no issue with the route just several of those we helped on the summit hadn't got the navigation skills to get off the plateau in unexpected bad weather. The same applied to some climbers. The exit window is pretty tight and use of a map can become near impossible so its best to have a laminated summit card and better still memorise paces and compass bearings.
Post edited at 12:23
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James Jackson 07 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:
> Experienced climbers adjust their risk level to meet their improving skills so sure their accident rates can be high but anyone who knows large numbers of those first moving into scottish winter climbing or alpine climbing knows the early years are by far the riskiest.

It would be interesting to actually see some sound analysis of this, although I expect it would be highly unlikely to get funding as a study (quite niche...). Accident stats against a variety of factors - experience, age, learning route (i.e. self-taught, with experienced friends, through courses / guiding) etc.
Post edited at 12:50
 kwoods 07 Feb 2016
In reply to James Jackson:
> It would be interesting to actually see some sound analysis of this, although I expect it would be highly unlikely to get funding as a study (quite niche...). Accident stats against a variety of factors - experience, age, learning route (i.e. self-taught, with experienced friends, through courses / guiding) etc.

I also wonder how accurate often-quoted (when these things come up on the forum) anecdotal evidence is. Many people will know mates that had an accident as they all share the same circles socially, and tend not to have known the beginners coming to grief as those people will tend to be unconnected and doing it themselves.
Post edited at 12:57
In reply to Offwidth:

> Get someone you know who has experince to take you out, or hire a guide. Lochaber is no place to self-teach as a beginner, as most of the high mountains need experience to get off safely in bad weather. Ben Nevis has an easy path but can be a death trap for those unable to winter navigate if the weather turns.

Somebody give very sound safety conscious advice and it gets 11 negative votes. There really are a lot of pathetic sad acts on this forum it has to be said.
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 Offwidth 08 Feb 2016
In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

I'm big enough to cope with the likely childish intent of some of those dislikes (I defended Lemming and have publicly asked the site to dump the button) but you are right that it sends the wrong message to beginners.

I volunteered for over 20 years helping my student club, working very closely with the BMC and some of the most experienced guides in the UK: for most of those years, the highlight was a week in Lochaber alongside other shorter trips and lots of preparation time, like the BMC series of Winter Lectures; all with the aim of introducing beginners to self-reliant winter climbing. Those diagreeing with my view could, if they were adult, explain their experience and why I am wrong.
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 BnB 08 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

I think some, eg Babika if I recall correctly, have done just that. The point is, both views have traction. For some, especially those with limited navigational experience, guided training is invaluable. For those already hill seasoned and with a self reliant nature, taking steps independently, with one eye on the forecast and another on the BMC manual, much of the pleasure lies in developing those skills experientially.
In reply to glenthemole:

A lot of people are saying no hire a guide. If you've done grade 3 scrambles and know how to use a rope my feeling is go for a grade 1 gully- if they are in condition. Most of the people on here who are saying don't go playing on the Ben and hire a guide will have done exactly the opposite of their advice. You do need to be aware of snow conditions for Avalanche awareness but I think you have the right attitude if you are looking at grade 1/2 gullies ridges. Have fun and stay safe!
 Offwidth 08 Feb 2016
In reply to Chris Huntington:

You got me, why listen to namby pamby people like the BMC and guides and mountain rescue when rad dudes on the internet have uncovered their game? Where is the fun if you know you are in control?? Who needs experience... go for those routes on the Ben, go, and if you fall, at least you fall bravely and following the true light. Right? Have fun and stay safe by ignoring the ones who will take your money and wrap you in cotton wool. I mean, can any of them actually climb? Cubby and co... pah, I heard they fall off grade IIs now they fatly sit- Smaug like - on that pile of student gold.
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James Jackson 09 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

Now if there ever were a melodramatic, over the top post that is it. Your viewpoint isn't wrong, but it just that: a viewpoint. It's no more wrong or right than the other one raised here; you just seem to 'defend' (seems the wrong word, as they're all perfectly acceptable ways to skin the cat) it with more oomph than others.

Another datapoint with no context: I know two people killed in accidents with university clubs working with very experienced people.
 Offwidth 09 Feb 2016
In reply to James Jackson:
The post was pretty obviously using humour to get a point over.

Climbing is dangerous and objective dangers increase significantly when moving from rock climbing to snow and ice... this can catch the best at times. Trouble with beginners is they might not have taken in the full context of the risks in their new game. Qualified instructors are pretty much always responsible for safe, useful, learning. They also have rules of operation and been taken to court in the incredibly rare situations when clients have died, so the limits of responsibility are there and tested. Experienced climbers who are not paid also help many beginners and also have a legal duty of care. Experience simply can't remove the risks of winter climbing but it can greatly reduce them, and using experience, paid or not, is a much more efficient way to achieve independence as a winter climber (and a better all round experience is usually more fun).

The Ben is especially unforgiving... its a big day and can exhaust the experienced, the lower grade routes are long often not in their grade condition and usually hard to assess on your own from the base and the summit navigation requirements in wind and snow can be very testing. If someone is just starting out there are much better places to learn the game.

When you help out in a club as long as I did and see how some new climbers who seem confident respond with fear and error on the mountain; working alongside guides and the BMC, other clubs and other unpaid climbers (who regularly help beginners learn) with even wider experience, who share the same concerns, and sadly see mountain rescue in action, the value of good introductory instruction is crystal clear. I can't undo that knowledge and fail to recommend the way I do but still in the spirit of our grand game I know its not for everyone and I have no wish to force it on people.

Even UKC used to help in this respect in the old days, for free, with its winter meet.
Post edited at 09:16
In reply to Offwidth:

Hahahaha!

I'm taking that entire post without sarcasm and therefore thank you for agreeing with me.

The guys got some experience mate as he says- you can't hire a guide for your entire climbing career.

Well I guess you can but It kind of goes against what people most people like about climbing.

Anyway post your rebuttal. I'm ashamed of myself for getting involved in a pathetic ukc argument over nothing-I was just giving the chap some suggestions like he asked for.
 Offwidth 10 Feb 2016
In reply to Chris Huntington:

... this is why humour was needed. The OP seems to have no experience of UK graded winter routes and the Ben is a bad place to start without help. Use of an instructor or an experienced friend helps get climbers going safer and more efficently, it's a short-cut to self reliance, not a lifelong crutch. Most climbers think this and do this... I'm pretty sure your view is the minority one so it would be interesting to get more of your background and experience as to why you think differently and why people should listen to you over guides, the BMC etc.
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In reply to Offwidth:

I'm entirely in agreement with Offwidth on this subject. People get killed on those mountains every winter, and generally people with more experience and expertise than the guy who made the initial post. It can happen to anyone, I remember a professional guide from Sheffield lost his life on the descent from Curved Ridge a few years ago. In general the less experienced and knowlegdable you are the more likely you are to end up getting into trouble. The Lochaber mountains in winter are is place for novices. Only four years ago six people who thought they knew what were doing headed up Bidean Nam Bian on a winters day and only one came back, and they were only going for a hill walk, not attempting graded winter climbing routes.
In reply to Offwidth:

Well that's a much more reasonable response and one I can get on board with.

Fair enough it sounds like you guys know more than me I'm not a guide.

Like I said he asked for some suggestions and I gave my opinion.

My profile has my climbs and experience on it.



OP glenthemole 10 Feb 2016
In reply to Chris Huntington:

Well I guess since I started thisI might as well weigh in...

I feel like there is some middle-ground between 'complete ignorance', even if it is your first trip out and going out with a guide:

- We have been out in winter conditions before with a guide, not in Scotland though
- I read (most of) Alpine Climbing: Techniques to Take You Higher and flicked through another book to understand the theory
- Watched all of the glenmore lodge basic skills videos as a refresher
- Did also ask a guide for advice on routes given the actual weather conditions (and took his advice)
- Was properly equipped with decent gear

Was it more risky going out on our own then with a guide? For sure. Would have been even safer staying at home. Do I feel like I did my appropriate due diligence and took (for me) an acceptable level of risk - yes. Did I learn a lot - hell yeah.

I don't know what the exact wind speed was but the forecast was bouncing around 70-80kmh and the guide we chatted to after said it was as windy as he had experienced on the hill. On the hill we knew where we had to decide whether to commit to the ridge; we took a quick bothy to make a decision and decided to go for it. It wasn't comfortable in the bad weather but at no point did it feel unsafe or outside my skill level. We roped up for CMD arete, in better weather would have been perfectly comfortable soloing, and it is good to know for future reference that grade 1 ridges should be ok with most of what the weather can throw at us. So I feel we chose a route that was enough within our comfort zone that we were still ok given the poor conditions. I think it was a very good experience being out in those kind of conditions on our own.

As much for myself as anyone else - here's what I think I learnt (as well as the general improvement in skill on moving on snow):
1) As always - leave early, move fast, allow lots of time buffer. We faffed too much in the morning, spent a bit too long in the bothy so we finished in the dark which could have been avoided.
2) You can actually just get used to very strong winds if they are relatively consistent and not too gusty
3) A bothy bag can make the world of difference to just get out of the weather for a quick break. Again though - keep stops short
4) In very bad weather, roping up is useful if only to make sure you keep together. You can move together without having to constantly making sure you don't get separated. Also interestingly, felt like on both sides much less of a temptation to stop when roped up and I found it easier to settle into a steady pace, even on scrambling terrain where I have a tendency to stop-start.
5) Especially in bad weather a GPS with waypoints and OS map loaded makes it much easier to navigate on the move and keep pressing on, and takes away the element of doubt with a quick glance in poor visibility. However its easy to see how you can become completely reliant on it and on future trips I will force myself to move back to map and compass.
6) Was pretty happy with all my kit, and its in these kind of conditions where good kit pays for itself. 50l bag was a bit overkill, could have done with 35l. If its not in a drybag assume it will get soaked. One axe and a walking pole seemed to be a good combo to cover a range of terrain.
7) I watched the glenmore lodge youtube videos as a refresher - found them pretty slow and patronising, but on the hill I found the repetition did stick in my head on some of the basic skills.
8) Bought some gaiters for the trip - absolutely fantastic kit for gloopy scottish mud and swollen streams to cross
9) Avalance risk I know is something I need to know more about - going to read up on it and may get a guide next time out to learn more about it practically, I think actually seeing different types of snow first hand will be useful
10) I actually really enjoy being on a mountain when its blowing a gale, you can't see anything, you're knackered and you just have to keep pushing on. Once you're committed I found it a very liberating feeling. There's no question of whether to continue, whether you've made the right decision blah blah blah - its just head down, push on, get through.

(And getting the megabus sleeper back to London and going straight into work in the morning was probably the most exhausting bit of the trip)

And I guess to top it off - looking at going back in a few weeks!
In reply to glenthemole:

Sounds like you had a great day out and were sensible with your route picking. I think grade 1 ridges are a good way to experience some winter mountaineering.

Well done and hope you keep enjoying it!
James Jackson 10 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:

Good stuff; glad you had a good day out. CMD arete is a great route at any time of year, especially so in winter.
 Offwidth 11 Feb 2016
In reply to glenthemole:
A few points before you get too carried away. CMD arete isn't a graded route, its towards the top end of the difficulty range for a winter walk andl like plenty of similar winter walks in Lochaber its quite serious and even the experienced can sometimes can get caught out. I'm presuming you had reasonable visibility on the summit as with 20+ years experience I'm always relieved to hit the main descent correctly when its windy in white-out conditions up there (and this can happen unexpectedly). I was serious about nav on the Ben.. get hold of a summit laminate learn the bearings and how to pace. On avalanche risk... I'd strongly recommend you follow what you suggest.

The summit of Britain's highest mountain is a lemming magnet: I once met a man in brogues and a towel wrapped round his head for warmth on the top snowfield in late March he got up and down OK but it didnt make his approach sensible. What you do is your choice but getting help from someone experienced means you will progress more safely and quickly and if cost is an issue some kind people will help for free but think also how many extra trips you need to gain the experience on your own and how much they cost (in money and your valuable time).
Post edited at 09:46
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 GrantM 11 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:

> A few points before you get too carried away. CMD arete isn't a graded route, its towards the top end of the difficulty range for a winter walk

CMD arete is usually classed as winter grade I.
 Offwidth 11 Feb 2016
In reply to GrantM:

It may be labelled that way now to protect the unwary but its wasn't when I started and proper grade I ridge will be a big step up. Lots of other walking ridges in Lochaber are no easier.
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 thomm 11 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:
The guy prepared well, sought advice, chose a fantastic and appropriate route, did it and came back to report on it, and you're still wagging your finger. Plenty of your advice is good but the tone grates a little.
"think also how many extra trips you need to gain the experience on your own" - yes indeed, and all those stories you'll have to tell.
 Offwidth 11 Feb 2016
In reply to thomm:
Excuse me if I don't like the gung-ho attitude of some here. My interest is in improving safety whist progressing efficiently in the game. Its noticable some of those claiming the benefits of self reliance the loudest never seemed to have climbed anything hard. If you look at the Mountain Rescue reports about how many people fall down Five Finger Gully and similar, a bit more caution in navigation in particular up there is wise. On routes every visit I made seemingly had people climbing on aspects they should have probably and too often certainty have been avoiding.

As for the stories, they come anyway with or without a bit of help at the start. Some of mine are wonderful, some silly, some sad. Our club stopped its regular annual trip after a very bad accident where climbers who were self reliant, confident, within their limits, reacted the right way to conditions, following pair from our club who were just ahead had bad luck in their timing in an unpredicted change in weather. They lived but were very lucky in that the huge fall didnt kill them and Mountain Rescue were there already for another party.
Post edited at 11:07
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In reply to Offwidth:
I don't think it would have mattered what glenthemole said he had done/learned- you'd still have had a go at him!

You presume the rest of us are gung Ho climbing idiots- you need to understand this is a forum mate and as I keep saying he asked for some route advice.
Post edited at 11:14
 Offwidth 11 Feb 2016
In reply to Chris Huntington:

I'm glad you know my mind better than me and in any case urging someone not to let success get in the way of caution isn't exactly what I would regard as 'having a go'. I'd also point out having a gung-ho attitude isn't the same as being a gung-ho idiot and IMHO plenty of more measured stuff is present on this thread, including some critiquing my view. For someone "ashamed of myself for getting involved in a pathetic ukc argument over nothing" you sure seem 'touchy' and provocative on this subject.
Gone for good 11 Feb 2016
In reply to Offwidth:
For what its worth I think you have written a lot of sensible advice in the past and, in parts, on this thread.

I have used guides in the past, mainly in Europe where I am unfamiliar with the geography and the choice of routes and have enjoyed the climbing time I have had with them.

As far as Scottish winter climbing is concerned, and I'm no expert, I would advocate to anyone that asked, to take it slowly, try and minimise risks, dont aim for routes that are out of your depth and most of all enjoy the experience.

There has to some learning and like most people I learnt most from past mistakes and believe I am a better mountaineer for having had those unfortunate but memorable experiences.

Many years ago I was with a friend and we were caught in a whiteout somewhere near the top of Ben Vane. Somehow we got off the mountain but not before I had stepped off the edge of a small buttress and luckily fell into a deep snowdrift about fifteen feet further down the hill. We got well and truly lost in the whiteout, no up, no down, just white, and only through sheer luck and with a little inspiration did I manage to find a way out by following a frozen burn through various small crags that brought us out of the cloudbase. I might have got killed that day on more than one occasion and there have been many other circumstances between now and then that may have resulted in my death or serious injury.

Mountaineering is risky and adventurous and never more so than in the middle of winter. In my humble opinion we become better at what we do by trying and failing and learning and trying again.

Where this thread has become a little tedious is by the continual reference to obtaining the use of a guide to help people learn.

There also appears to be some attempt at justification for the repetitive nature of this call for using a guide and that has resulted in another thread starting up titled 'how did you get into winter climbing?' and then going onto describe how a guide was employed to obtain some valuable experience!

Guides are good, guides are necessary, for lots of different reasons, but learning on your own, with others who are inexperienced is fun and rewarding and not without risks. Its what we live for isnt it?
 Offwidth 11 Feb 2016
In reply to Gone for good:
A guide IS what I used and I explained the benefits I had and how the cost arguments made for me were plain false logic (others have had different experiences). I recommend this based on my positive experience (and the reality of the problems I've viewed with extensive basic poor practice on the winter mountains: especially the 'avalanche chasers') , but really what I want to see in a safe efficient introduction (hopefully cutting the level of poor practice) is more people getting help in getting started from an experienced climber; paid or not. I've also learnt from stupid mistakes but the mistakes were just that and I don't celebrate learning in that way (I'd rather have not not made them). I don't climb for the risks, I climb to enjoy shared problem solving in amazing places whilst remaining broadly in control of those acknowledged risks.

The other thread is a genuine attempt to find out just how people started on UK winter routes and to help I want to keep my comments off that (at least for the moment) and let people contribute their stories. So far we lots of interesting stuff, with only one joke and a few bits of sad macho boastfulness. I have been honestly very surprised with how large a proportion learnt without experienced help. I've been away on trips with a couple of hundred students who took on their basic training and their first graded routes with a guide or an experienced climber through my club and most of my other climbing friends most either started with instructors or experienced friends (the latter mainly through clubs).
Post edited at 15:15
 moppy 11 Feb 2016
In reply to Gone for good:


> and most of all enjoy the experience.

Ahhh, that's where I've been going wrong

 Offwidth 11 Feb 2016
In reply to moppy:

This might help (more learning from experience rather than wasting money and suffering to learn oneself). Hot aches are certainly the worst thing for me about winter climbing.

http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_truth_about_gloves

I still use Dachsteins at times.

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