UKH

Afternoon all,

I am, along with a friend, looking to do a week long beginners course in the Alps this summer, to learn the skills and techniques for alpine mountaineering, with the view to potentially tackling Mont Blanc (or something similar) unguided in 2016. The time between the course and the idea of Mont Blanc (or similar) next year would be used to practice and develop the skills learnt.

The options have been narrowed down to:

Jagged Globe - Introductory Alpine Techniques - Level 1,
http://www.jagged-globe.co.uk/climb/course/i/alps+intro.html

ISM - Summits and Skills 4,000m
http://www.alpin-ism.com/courses/summer-mountaineering/summits-skills-4000m

As this is a new area for me, I would be keen to hear more experience individuals thoughts on the merits of each course, in addition to reviews (good/bad) of both companies.

Thanks.

In reply to 83earl:

The most terrified looking individuals I've ever seen on a mountain were 3 guys being (literally) dragged up Pigne de la Le by their ISM guide. The night before they arrived at the hut with all their kit soaking wet. They were on an ISM Alpine Introductory/Beginners course. On that experience, personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near ISM.

You'd be far better off hiring a BMG guide and paying for private guiding/instruction for a week. Yes, this will probably be more expensive - but you can get exactly what you want from the week, at your pace.

In reply to 83earl:
I did the Alpine North Faces course with JG a dozen or so years ago, and found them excellent. Wasn't dragged anywhere!

Plus they're Sheffield based so must be good )

In reply to 99ster:

Fair comment about the merits of paying for private guiding, but I suspect your experience of ISM was something of an anomaly. Maybe the clients were really unfit but had insisted they get taken to the top?

ISM have a superb reputation for professionalism, something they've built and maintained for over 50 years!

In reply to 83earl:

2 Jagged Globe Courses, both have been ran superbly and would go again/recommend highly.

Otherwise experience of guides has been with some of the Swiss Ski/Mountain crowd, all excellent but very different reason for using them (lack of area knowledge against a skills course)

In reply to Tom Briggs:

I did the Summits and Skills course with ISM nearly 10 years back and personally found them to be excellent. Very professional and certainly no one got dragged up a hill or ended up terrified! In fact in our group we had one person who had pretty serious problems with exposure and our guide was excellent with this.

A course like you're looking at will likely work out cheaper than paying for private guiding etc as you'll be in a bigger group. However, remember that the pace, level etc will most probably be determined by the weakest member in the group thus depending on where you and your mate fit in to the pecking order you may find the level is too advanced or a bit too easy. If you've got no (or minimal) experience of any skills covered by the course then you'll learn loads. If you / your mate already know a lot of the stuff you might find it better to use a BMG and do something more dedicated to yourselves.

If it helps any, when we did the ISM course we both knew how to indoor climb (top roping). We also had done a wee bit of winter walking etc in Scotland so knew how to use walking axe/crampons etc. We hadn't done any outdoor climbing or any rope work whatsoever.

Whatever you decide to do make sure you are as physically fit as you can be as you'll enjoy it a lot more and also be more receptive to learning stuff if you're not knackered / sore the whole time.

In reply to 83earl:

I have done a number of JG courses - Both Scottish(2) & Alpine (3).
The fact that I keep going back is the best endorsement I can give.

Personally I would try and do a Scottish Winter Mountaineering course first and get all the ice axe & crampon skills nailed then possibly try something a bit harder for my first Alpine experience.

That way you will be climbing something very similar in grade to the Gouter / 3 Monts Route.

In terms of MB - Fitness and Acclimatisation are the Key - Technically its very easy - basically a Via Ferrata/ Snow Plod with no route finding issues- The crux for me was climbing into the 3rd level bunk in the old Gouter hut!

Either way - as said above - get fit before you go and you'll have great time.

PS - Don't wear expensive climbing trousers when first wearing crampons as you will definitely shred the insides of the trouser legs.

In reply to johnmctighe:


Disagree. Scottish Winter Mountaineering is a gamble in terms of conditions. Days are short and it is damp. Most of days will involve a lot of hiking to the start of the route and back to car in the evening.

Generally it is different to summer alpinism and a bit pointless unless one want to climb in Scotland.

In reply to 83earl:

I have done 6 overseas trips with Jagged Globe and 2 Scottish winter courses, with another overseas trip planned next year. Like someone mentioned above, the fact I keep returning tells you a lot.

In reply to 83earl: A big vote for ISM from me. I've been on various courses over the years Summer and Winter and always had an excellent time. I've always found ISM professional and friendly and their prices are inclusive so no hidden extras.

Firstly thank you all for the comments so far, I have attempted to group and address each topic raise below.


@fairweatherclimber, @IMA, @johnmctighe and @Axel Smeets
It certainly seems that Jagged Globe has a lot of happy customers as evident by the number of people saying they have done multiple trips with the company.

@Fiona Reid
The experience that we have is mainly U.K. hiking/hill walking and camping. We both have backcountry skiing experience/courses but certainly in my case this was nearly 5 years ago, so the knowledge is a little rusty and I'm unsure how transferable it would be anyway. I believe you mentioned that group courses will run at the pace of the slowest individuals, this is not in my eyes much of an issue as I suspect those individuals will most likely be us!

@johnmctighe, @nutme
The idea of a doing course in Scotland first was also mentioned. This was considered however due to the dates of the courses we were looking at (only available in February) and our combined other commitments this was quickly shown not to be feasible.

@johnmctighe
You also mentioned the topic of fitness. I currently go to the gym 4 times a week (although mainly weight train), and run between 2 and 5 km once or twice a week. I am aware that this will most likely need to be adjusted so if you or anyone else could point me in the direction of a good fitness training article that would me much appreciated.

In reply to 83earl:

i think your experience will be related to how well you connect with the individual guide running the courses as much as the company behind them. All will be hugely competent but you may just develop a better rapport with some than others.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Agree with this. I suspect there is little to choose between ISM and JG. How you get on with the Guides/fellow course members and what happens to the weather will make the difference, both companies are experienced at managing all of this.

I say, just pick whichever course you like the look of best (and hopefully push you the hardest) and hope that the weather/rapport works out.

PS. I wouldn't bother with a Scottish course first.

In reply to Eeyore:

Thanks for the comments. Although very difficult to get a feel for the guides/fellow course members until actually attending the course, no?

Having read the course description of both (on several occasions and having spoken to individuals at both companies) to be honest they both appear to be very similar to my untrained inexperience eye. Hence asking for the opinions of those more experience as to the merit of each course.

As I said earlier, the idea of doing a Scottish course first is just not viable as we wouldn't be able to do anything until next year, and then wouldn't want to be be to rushed between completing the course and heading to Mont Blanc.

In reply to 83earl:
Try Graham Frost, based in Switzerland runs an excellent outfit with options for all objectives and skill levels, not just in Switzerland.
One look at the list of guides that he taps in to will fill you with confidence.
http://www.frostguiding.co.uk/about/484/Our_Mountain_Guides_-_Frost_Guiding...
You'll find him on UKC too, posting snippets of helpful info.

In reply to Alan Bates:
Thanks Alan!

I'd recommend Frostguiding too, but then I'm biased. We'll do our best to arrange things to suit the client and pride ourselves on flexibility in the course programme.
http://www.frostguiding.co.uk/course/14/Introduction_to_Alpine_Climbing.htm...

In reply to 83earl:



It is and even if it all works out very well the first time there is no guarantee that it will the next time. Sounds like you have done your research and have got other opinions - although wait for more if you want.

In reply to 83earl:

What's the level of you and your friend? Do you already have some rope skills and basic climbing ability? Do you both pick up things reasonably quickly and at a similar rate?
I did the JG alpine introduction course years ago: it was useful but I got frustrated at the slow pace, and going right back to how to tie a figure 8 etc.
A few years later when a friend wanted to try alpine climbing, we went together to the alps and hired a guide for 3 days: he (and I) learnt much more and had more intensive and personalised instruction in these 3 days, than the previous course I'd done. It also left us with time and suggestions from the guide for routes for us to do ourselves. 3-4 days private guiding split between 2 will be about the same cost as the course.

If you're set on one of the courses, by all means do one, just offering an alternative approach.

In reply to damowilk:

Both complete novices in regard to skills and basic climbing ability. Yes, we generally pick things up relatively quickly and at a similar rate.

As I mentioned in an earlier post I suspect that whatever group course we do ultimately join would run at our pace!

We aren't necessarily set on a course, we will consider what is best for our desired outcome. Looking at courses was just our initial approach - when learning something new, have lessons! I guess part of the reason we are looking at courses for is they are much easier to find information about than find guides, although I suspect that we might just not have/know the right resources?

In reply to graham F:

Have sent you a private message, thanks.

In reply to 83earl:

Hopefully this is a self-balancing thread in that, as people have pointed out, both organisations are highly professional and experienced. I know many of the ISM guides and they are at the top of their game. Jagged Globe are equally respected. I'd just decide based on timings, location etc and feel confident either will deliver.

In reply to airborne:
Yes, it seems both companies are equally highly regarded, I'd give Jagged Globe the edge in apparent popularity based on the responses I have received.

I would certainly be interested to hear whether experienced climbers thought there was any merit of one course over the other in terms of content based on the descriptions on the websites. Equally is there anything missing from either course that should be taught/would be beneficial to learn?

Jagged Globe;
On completion of the course, you will have learnt to:
Consider factors affecting route selection (for example, team composition, weather and snow conditions).
Recognise and avoid hazards in the alpine environment.
Contribute to decision-making in the alpine environment and in an expedition context.
Select appropriate clothing and equipment (crampons, ice axes, boots).
Be a competent member of a rope team for travelling across a glacier.
Take coils and move together as a roped team in a variety of terrain.
Use ice axe and crampons.
Identify and place reliable snow, ice and rock anchors.
Participate in a crevasse rescue scenario.
Rock climb (belaying, including holding a fall).
Use Alpine huts.
Climb routes graded Alpine F to PD.

ISM:
As this course is aimed at people new to alpine mountaineering, we cover all of the basic climbing and alpine skills, including:
Introduction to basic climbing equipment.
Attaching to the rope and other climbing knots.
Basic movement techniques over rock.
Abseiling and prussiking.
Belaying and protection techniques on rock and ice (both as leader and second).
Use of crampons and ice axe on snow and ice.
Taking coils and moving together with the rope (both as leader and second).
Short rope techniques for different types of alpine terrain (both as leader and second).
Safe glacier travel and crevasse rescue (both as rescuer and 'victim').
Constructing snow and ice belays and descending on snow and ice.
Navigation and interpretation of maps and guidebook.
Preparation and selection of climbing equipment.
Alpine huts and the £alpine start£.

One thing I had noticed was the guide student ratio, for Jagged Globe this is '1 day at 1:6, 5 days at 1:4 - 1:6 maximum' whilst ISM is '4:1'.

In reply to 83earl:

Hi try Tania Noakes a BMG based in Chamonix....very good!

In reply to ade,walter:

I'd second that completely re ISM although I can't give a comparison having no experience of JG

In reply to 83earl:

I did the summit and skills 4000m with ISM in 2014.

The guide was very professional and extremely safety focus, although he was a bit of a 'tit' (overly sarcastic, almost to the point of bullying), and I wasn't the only person in the group who felt this way. However I think it is luck of the draw with any company what the guide is like from a personality perspective.

I was on my course alongside the Classic AlpinISM week, and the lads on that course felt that my experience and skills were, at least,equal to theirs and couldn't understand why I hadn't been recommended that course instead. The difference was that I had only emailed ISM some vague details whereas they had phoned ISM and had a proper chat about previous experience/ objectives, so I would suggest doing that, whichever company you decide to go with.

The hotels and huts used be ISM are excellent, with great food.

In reply to 83earl:

I haven't been with JG or ISM but have looked at many of their trips thinking I'd like to. Both seemed a bit expensive for me. Have been with Graham Frost (GF) and yes I would definitely recommend him. I'd imagine JG and ISM are just as good too.

As others have said be as fit as you can when you arrive. When I went with GF in August 2014 I had been in the alps the week before for some hiking. Had hiked up to the Blumlisalp Hut at 2800m which I found very hard work for about the last 300m. Glad I did this as the following week I felt much stronger after just one hike to altitude. I appreciate you may not have enough time/cash to do this and many folk arrive on courses having not done similar anyway (me included on previous trips) so don't worry if you can't. You'll be ok. I have never found I lag behind or hold folk up particularly. Most folk will likely feel just as knackered as you but don't say.

As for Scotland in winter first it might help but I wouldn't say it was necessary. As another poster said the weather and conditions are so different assuming normal alpine conditions when you go.

Go with an open mind and be flexible and you wont have any problems. If you get on well with your work mates/friends generally you will fit in fine with fellow clients. I've never met anyone I don't get on with yet on a trip.

So go for it and choose anyone of JG, ISM,GF or anyone else with a good reputation and you'll have a great time.

In reply to 83earl:

If you're under 30 and have some UK experince, look into the Conville Courses, administrated by PyB. Could save you a bunch of ££ and would be plenty to get you started on easy 4000ers and beyond.

In reply to SAF:

Thanks for sharing your experience, would you mind messaging me the name of the guide who ran your course? I have to say I have been very impressed with both Jagged Globe and ISM in the responses to questions, ISM even organised for a guide to call me and talk through my experience, goals and course options (sounds like Summits & Skills is the right course).

In reply to bonebag:

Thanks for the input, based on other recommendations we are now considering Frost Guiding as well. Out of interest how do people trying for fitness, long and regular cardio I assume?

As mentioned earlier, Scotland has been ruled out, living in London it's probably just as easy to hop on a plane to the Alps as trying to work out how to get to Scotland!

Really struggling to separate the courses! With the courses being run from different places (Jagged Globe - Arolla, ISM - Leysin) does anyone have any experience of the possible climbs of each.

Jagged Globe - Pointe de Vouassan (3,489m) Pigne d'Arolla (3,796m) Mont Brule (3,585m) Tête Blanche (3,710m) Tête de Valpelline (3,799m) La Luette (3,548m) Aiguille de la Tsa (3,668m) Mont Blanc de Cheilon (3,869m)

ISM - Pigne de la Lé (3396m) Pointes de Mourti (3563m) Weissmies (4023m) Allalinhorn (4027m) Lagginhorn (4010m)

In reply to 83earl:

Quite a while back now I went on a couple of ISM alpine courses (hi Colin) and found them excellent. I'd done quite a lot of rock climbing and mountaineering at the time but wanted a) a solid grounding in alpine techniques and b) to get some good climbing in. It set me up very well to go and do my own thing but was also very enjoyable in its own right. I think that for a long while they were really the default British alpine guiding outfit. Jagged Globe also have an excellent reputation although I have never used them. I would strongly suspect there is very little in it in terms of quality of guiding etc.

As others have said, I supsect the experience you have will be based more around personalities of the group and the leader, rather than which outfit is "better".

I'd tend to go with which course sounds best for you and what time etc.

Whilst ISM base themselves in Leysin, you won't stay there other than at the start and finish. They will pretty much know where they would ideally go based on the course objectives but be able to flex that dependent upon who's already done what, where the weather is best etc.

As others have said, fitness is probably the most important thing to have (never my strong point). Either a lot of hours out in the hills with packs or, if no access to hills, a lot of running or similar.

In reply to 83earl:

All of these have equally good reputations- apart from that consider some pre training.
Traditionally this means weekends hill walking and climbing building up stamina and fitness- consider joining a mountaineering club for this!

In reply to Skyfall:

Thanks for the feedback on ISM. Certainly seems as if there is little to separate Jagged Globe and ISM in terms of reputation and feedback.

Having read both course descriptions they both sound to cover the same subjects, although as a novice it is hard to tell whether there are skills/topics missed from either course.

As I said in my post this morning, I'd be interested to know if there is any real difference in the peaks climb by each and whether this should be factored in to the decision.

Jagged Globe - Pointe de Vouassan (3,489m) Pigne d'Arolla (3,796m) Mont Brule (3,585m) Tête Blanche (3,710m) Tête de Valpelline (3,799m) La Luette (3,548m) Aiguille de la Tsa (3,668m) Mont Blanc de Cheilon (3,869m)

ISM - Pigne de la Lé (3396m) Pointes de Mourti (3563m) Weissmies (4023m) Allalinhorn (4027m) Lagginhorn (4010m)

In reply to Jasonic:

Unfortunately living in central London hill walking isn't that easy/accessible! I have been considering adjusting my gym training program to something like those here - http://www.fitclimb.com

In reply to 83earl:

I'll probably get disliked for this.

Just effing book something up before the places all go. If you can't decide flip a coin, if that results in the answer you don't want choose the other. It is time to make a decision.

Up on the mountain you will have to make more important decisions and if things are bad they may be life saving ones - if you can't make decisions in the comfort of home please reconsider whether the bigger mountains are for you.

I hope you choose your course and can concentrate on getting fit for it.

Apologies for a bit of a rant.

In reply to 83earl:

I'd agree with Eeyore that you're agonising excessively over this.

Either of those selections of peaks should provide the training you need. Of course there are pros and cons on each side - for instance, 4000m peaks may be more of a notional achievement for you, but may well be busier, and may be marginally more liable to bad weather. The scope for further indecision will always be there if you look hard enough!

One of the things you may well learn on these courses is that compared to Britain, where you can usually assume that you'll get up your chosen hill unless conditions are really exceptional, in the Alps you may not achieve the planned summits because of poor weather, snow conditions, altitude sickness, etc. In those circumstances your chosen guides may very well make a judicious decision to substitute another lower and/or easier mountain to ensure that you do get the experience you seek. I suspect their contract terms will leave open that possibility. So any comparison based on the summits offered may turn out to be a false one in any event.

I hope you can make up your mind and have a great time on your course. The reality is that once you've chosen, you'll almost certainly never know whether you would have been better or worse with the other option. And I suspect you'll never give it another thought.

In reply to 83earl:

The ism course is more based around 4,000 m peaks. These are obviously higher and often bigger ticks but many of the more interesting objectives are sub 4,000 m. Altitude can also be more of an issue with the 4,000 ers but they will factor that in. As said, weather may mean you do totally different peaks so don't get hung up on which peaks precisely.

Arolla is a really nice area and there are some classic rounds taking in several peaks in a row, even in the one day.

On the other hand, something like the weismiss is a great objective even if done via one of the easier routes with lots of great stuff around it.

I've been to both areas a number of times and enjoyed both for different reasons.

I do think you're in danger of overly worrying about it and would just go with what you fancy the sound of the best and what suits re timing/cost etc.

In reply to 83earl:

I'd put a vote in for ISM. I've done three of their courses over three years. So either I am a sucker, or they are good at what they do. Unfortunately, cannot compare to JG as have not used their services.