Crampon damage at Kyloe Out, Northumberland

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 dakidunn 25 Jan 2016
After a number of dry days, we went to Kyloe (Out) to check conditions not really expecting to climb. All holds/surfaces/flakes etc and inkwells that usually remain wet, were bone dry. We did six steady climbs, surprisingly in sunshine and were even joined by a 2nd climbing party.
We were surprised and very disappointed to see that someone over the recent "winter weather" period had climbed a number of routes (on this sandstone crag) wearing crampons causing damage to climbs including Miney, Mo and Flake Crack.
I really hope the person/s who did this were ignorant of the fact that you just don't do that on sandstone, rock climbing crags with no winter routes on them.
If anyone knows who did climb here with crampons, can you please advise them they have damaged the routes they climbed and please advise them of the potential destruction of said routes?
Pics to follow on the crag page.
Cheers
 CurlyStevo 25 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

That's Terrible, Northumberland sandstone is no place for crampons / axes
Removed User 25 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

Dear God!

I wish I was more surprised than shocked.
 jimjimjim 25 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:
I think this is only going to happen more often as climbing becomes more and more popular and new climbers starting out watch loads of videos of ice/dry tooling and don't know what UK winter climbing is.
This is why threads like these are important to make people aware and educate the over eager.

1
 deepsoup 25 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

V sad.
 Geordie Jeans 26 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

Good lord
 John Kelly 26 Jan 2016
1
 lummox 26 Jan 2016
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

That's bloody awful : (
 CurlyStevo 26 Jan 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

As you probably know Northumberland sandstone in general isn't that hard, most the toughness is in the outer crust. Once this is removed by idiots like this, it opens up possibly further erosion of the rock at a faster rate than would have occurred otherwise.

Although I'm not condoning what happened on Middlefell Buttress most the damage there is probably visual rather than to the integrity of the rock its self.
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 John Kelly 26 Jan 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I don't think the people who did this are necessarily idiots, they may be uninformed or take a different view

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 CurlyStevo 26 Jan 2016
In reply to John Kelly:
Incredibly uninformed and seemingly blind to the damage they were causing.

When this happened on grit I think the people just didn't care (at the time)....

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59279
Post edited at 11:07
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 John Kelly 26 Jan 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I don't think they realised where the consensus lay and how strongly people felt about this - it was a quarry after all it had been created by men with tools - doesn't make em idiots, just not aware of other peoples views.
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 CurlyStevo 26 Jan 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

In the Millstone case they were made aware at the time they were damaging the rock and ignored both the damage they were doing and the people urging them to stop, IMO there is a certain level of idiocy involved there and I feel no sorrow for the public naming and shaming that occurred afterwards.
1
 y2keable 26 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

Complete lack of respect, both for the crag and fellow climbers. They need to hope that I (for one) don't find out who they are.

Those are 3 of my favourite warm-up routes that I regularly solo. Now though, how can I solo them?!

They probably just think that the damage they're doing is merely cosmetic and therefore doesn't matter.
3
 planetmarshall 26 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

Ah, excellent. The "Rockfax bashing" thread was starting to run out of steam.
Lusk 26 Jan 2016
In reply to y2keable:

> Those are 3 of my favourite warm-up routes that I regularly solo. Now though, how can I solo them?!

I may well be being really thick here, but why won't you be able to solo them now?

Or do I need to re-calibrate my irony and/or sarcasm meters?!
 muppetfilter 26 Jan 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

If you are old enough to buy ice tools and drive a car to the crag then you are old enough know not to F***ing scratch up crags and boulder problems.

You are correct culprits are not idiots, they are selfish morons who dont know where or how to use ice axes. Personaly i would suggest they attempt unlubricated rectal placements before they leave the house next time.
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 CurlyStevo 26 Jan 2016
In reply to muppetfilter:

Idiot - "perceived to be lacking intelligence, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way"

I think their actions were significantly counterproductive so I stand by my original statement ;()
 muppetfilter 26 Jan 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I concede your valid point sir, I stand by my initial dry anal ice axe insertion suggestion.
Post edited at 14:56
 gallam1 26 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:
Has anyone actually checked to see how long this sort of damage is visible for?

It is quite possible that it disappears after a few weeks. People used to do all sorts of strange things on gritstone, of which there is now little trace. Are the recent scratches at Millstone still visible?

By the way, I'm not suggesting that ice axes on sandstone is a good idea.
Post edited at 15:02
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 SteveSBlake 26 Jan 2016
In reply to gallam1:

The marks are relatively shallow, but given where they are, they will probably be visible for years.

Steve
 joem 26 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

I think naming and shaming would be fair!!
Horrible damage to a beautiful crag.
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 John Kelly 26 Jan 2016
 Dave Williams 26 Jan 2016
In reply to gallam1:

> Has anyone actually checked to see how long this sort of damage is visible for?

> It is quite possible that it disappears after a few weeks. People used to do all sorts of strange things on gritstone, of which there is now little trace.

I can't comment on sandstone such as that at Kyloe Out, but crampon and axe scars from the 2010-11 winter are depressingly still very visible on Barmouth Slabs, a Welsh gritstone crag some 200 metres above sea level. This crag, just like Kyloe, is definitely *not* a winter crag. FWIW, my view is that people who do this sort of thing know exactly what they're doing - and simply don't care.
 Dervey 26 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

What the ****! How could anyone think this is acceptable?!
OP dakidunn 26 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

Just to clarify, the damage done here could end up being significantly more than visual. This crag is made of sandstone which is a sedimentary rock and when the harder, outer "crust" is damaged, it exposes the non weather worn, inner grain matrix structure.

This newly exposed inner is a much more permeable material and is susceptible to water, frost, salt and acidic damage. As the outer is less vulnerable as it's structure is different, the rock can erode unnoticed from within and spall.

This can mean holds/ledges/flakes etc could crumble and the consequences of this could be severe. It appeared to me by the marks left, that these people were novices as if they'd been any good with crampons, they'd have made significantly less of an impact.
 pass and peak 26 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

Think that's bad, Caught a man and his young son with a hammer and chisel trying to carve their initials on the Boulders on the top of Simonside, Northumberland the other week. I asked them to desist and he got very defensive asking who I was to tell them what to do. luckily I must have put up a good enough argument as they say my point in the end and stopped, plus he was no stone mason, just a grown up idiot!
In reply to dakidunn:

Well it's not just sandstone that get damaged. Rhyolite mountain rock may be volcanic but it's not immune to crampons and tools. Look at the top-out of Manx Wall on Clogwyn Du and you'll see so much damage it's shocking. It's not just dry-tooling in daft places like Northumberland and Millstone that knackers the rock; it's legitimate 'snowed up rock' winter climbing on pretty much anything except granite that causes damage.

We need to have a good look at our winter ethics at the moment, as imho it's not sustainable.
 SteveSBlake 27 Jan 2016
In reply to dakidunn:

The folks who did this have come forward. They are a (local) group of relative newcomers to the sport and are now aware that what they did was wholly inappropriate. Hopefully we will not see a repeat.

Steve.
 John Kelly 27 Jan 2016
In reply to SteveSBlake:

> The folks who did this have come forward. They are a (local) group of relative newcomers to the sport and are now aware that what they did was wholly inappropriate. Hopefully we will not see a repeat.

> Steve.

That sounds like the actions of reasonable individuals who simply didn't know the rules.
I'm so glad they were not idiots or morons.
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 Michael Gordon 27 Jan 2016
In reply to SteveSBlake:

Sad news but at least someone has owned up and hopefully as an act of gross ignorance rather than arrogance it is less likely we'll see anything more.
 John Kelly 27 Jan 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

Well, you say that. It's hard not to think that anyone who looks at this sort of damage and reckons it's just what happens isn't a little bit of an idiot.

Still, good to hear they won't be doing it again, anyway.

jcm
In reply to John Kelly:

> Good question, I will keep an eye on middlefell

Middlefell Buttress was climbed in winter under heavy snow conditions ca 5 years ago now by a well known Lake District winter climber who was doing a lot of that sort of thing at the time. I imagine the scars date from that one ascent. It was that ascent plus other similar ones of what amounted to snowed up rock climbs that led to a series of meetings in the Lakes which resulted in a policy of the FRCC no longer recording the climbing of "winter routes" on what were agreed to be important rock climbing crags. The conclusions of those meetings can be read in this pamphlet on Lake's Winter Ethics https://www.thebmc.co.uk/lakeswinterethics and anyone who climbs in the Lakes in winter, and who hasn't already read it, is urged to read them (and heed them!).
 John Kelly 28 Jan 2016
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

The scratches in pic occurred Nov 15, it was a brutal attack, they abbed off halfway up.
It was climbed in 14 during heavy snow with tools, was only lightly scatched on that occasion.
5yrs ago - there are some mysterious scratches, that must be it.
 Tricadam 28 Jan 2016
I feel we should - particularly in the Lakes and Scotland - be promoting the lost art of wet tooling. Ethically sanctioned wet tooling may take place when the rock is sufficiently wet that it may more safely/easily be ascended with crampons and axes than in rock shoes and bare hands. The reintroduction of this ancient practice will allow us to climb our native crags in their native state: sopping wet and pure freezin man.
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In reply to John Kelly:

> The scratches in pic occurred Nov 15, it was a brutal attack, they abbed off halfway up.

That's a great shame - there was a lot of effort went into launching that guidance and Raven Crag is one of the crags where it was agreed that winter climbing should not take place. You sound as if you witnessed it happened - are the culprits aware of the feels of Lake District climbers in general about this? If so, do they care?

 NottsRich 28 Jan 2016
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> It's hard not to think that anyone who looks at this sort of damage and reckons it's just what happens isn't a little bit of an idiot.

When the rock is covered in snow, are people necessarily aware of the damage being done? I'd guess not.
1
 Michael Gordon 28 Jan 2016
In reply to NottsRich:

You mean they might not realise there's rock underneath the snow?
 Webster 28 Jan 2016
In reply to y2keable:


> Those are 3 of my favourite warm-up routes that I regularly solo. Now though, how can I solo them?!

your taking the piss right? err exactly the same as you did before?
 John Kelly 28 Jan 2016
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Sorry Stephen didn't intend to give the impression that I had seen attempted ascent l just stripped the tat a month later, the only snow occurs on 21st Nov and I assume this was done during those 'winter conditions'

I suspect most of the problems we are currently talking about are caused by 'new' climbers who get fired up by Colin Haley soloing in Patagonia and have a brand new set of tools.
While the BMC winter ethics guide is seldom off the best seller list, not sure it reaches everyone it needs to (available langdale campsite).
Would it make sense for gear manufactures, gear sellers in conjunction with BMC to hand one out with every set tools or crampons so really targeting the message
2
 John Kelly 28 Jan 2016
In reply to Tricadam:

Or alternatively just brush the snow off the holds with gloved hands and proceed as per usual, just drop 4 grades or so,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nanga-Parbat-Pilgrimage-Lonely-Challenge/dp/1898573...
In reply to John Kelly:

> While the BMC winter ethics guide is seldom off the best seller list, not sure it reaches everyone it needs to (available langdale campsite).

> Would it make sense for gear manufactures, gear sellers in conjunction with BMC to hand one out with every set tools or crampons so really targeting the message

Good idea - be worth an email to the BMC I think, maybe a specific all purpose set of guidelines that would cover the whole of the UK and could be attached to every axe and set of climbing crampons?
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 John Kelly 29 Jan 2016
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

done
 joem 29 Jan 2016
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

I agree however I am unsure how this would work as there appears to be very different ethics with regards to climbing snowed up rock routes in the Scottish mountains compared to the lakes. Being that I get the impression that if for example Savage Slit was in the lakes climbing it with tools would not be acceptable?
 CurlyStevo 29 Jan 2016
In reply to joem:

One thing do consider - there is probably more months a year that savage slit is in enjoyable winter condition than summer.
 d_b 30 Jan 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm not so sure about that. I climbed Savage Slit in perfect summer conditions, but I think it would have still been a special kind of enjoyable if it was pouring with rain and dripping with green slime. Certainly memorable.

Maybe you could just say it spends more of its time as type II fun than type I.
In reply to joem:

> I agree however I am unsure how this would work as there appears to be very different ethics with regards to climbing snowed up rock routes in the Scottish mountains compared to the lakes.

Yes, it would need to be something fairly vague, just pointing out that winter ethics agreements are in place in Wales and The Lake District and that climbing with axes and crampons on outcrops of gritstone or sandstone south of the border is generally frowned upon for the reasons stated above.

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