UKH

Here or in Gear?

Hello

I've had a search on the forums and online generally but can't see any specific recommendations, other than that if you've got an auto locking belay plate you can bust out some moves to keep warm!

I'm likely to be using a pair of dry treated half ropes. So skinny and not frozen hopefully.

Petzl Revers 4?

Thanks in advance.

In reply to Richard Gilbert:
reverso 4 for me, no different to summer.

lots of different types on the market, having guide mode is a plus point on any device

Davey

In reply to Richard Gilbert:

Yet to encounter anything that brakes better than a DMM bugette once you crack out the skinnies. Lightest and cheapest device on the block for good measure.

I carry a spare because (random) partners often turn up with some old plate designed for 10mm ropes. They insist "oh mine'll work just fine, no problems" so I invite them to try a dummy abseil on their plate. Then they sheepishly but unfailingly accept my offer of a loan for the day.

In reply to BnB:



I'm surprised they don't tell you to bog off if you patronise them like that. Also the bugette doesn't have guide mode, which the OP implied was a must. All modern plates will work fine with skinny ropes.

To the OP: they're all much the same; I've got the BD Guide Plate and it works fine. I'm sure someone else will recommend the Petzl Reverso, and someone else the Pivot - although I'd guess the hinge on the latter is prone to freezing up, and it's an extra fiver. No experience personally though.

In reply to ianstevens:

I use the grivel master pro, I like the additional friction the hooks offer when belaying heavier folks and abbing. TBH there's much of a muchness between the belay devices I've borrowed and used. I bought the grivel on a deal and stuck with it, I'm sure if I'd bought a reverso I'd be just as enthused

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=4734 might help.

In reply to ianstevens:

If someone turns up to climb with me toting a belay device that is inadequate for the task of protecting me from harm on the accepted standard diameter ropes for the type of climbing in question, then I don't care how patronising I might appear. It's simply unacceptable. Nor, to be honest, do I see a better means of persuasion than a practical demonstration.

Full credit to the OP for trying to get it right. And yes a Reverso 4 is very adequate, excellent even, but for the life of me I don't see why guide mode is so important when indirect belays place less stress on gear, especially important in winter. Does no one else have more than one belay device, according to the type of climbing in question?

In reply to ianstevens:

Who's life is it? If they are arrogant, stupid and ignorant enough to tell you to bog off then fine, they're not the sort of idiot you want to be climbing with anyway.


Bollocks. As BnB suggests, just try abseiling one handed on a fat device with a single strand of skinny rope and if you don't change your mind you are a liability with a dangerous lack of imagination.

In reply to BnB:


Yes. Buguette for winter. An narrow HB one for trad on half ropes and either an ATC like one or a Click-Up for Single rope sport. Like you, I own spares to offer partners with unsuitable plates.

In reply to BnB:
I've had issues on 8mm ropes when they got iced using a bugette before! They just wouldn't go through the device well at all and badly jammed even off brake. I wouldn't use one in winter again. I find the atc xp guide is a bit grabber on thin ropes than the standard atc xp and would be happy using it. I have an old skinny device made by hb that isn't quite as small as the bugette that is a better for winter. Personally I cringe when people want to belay me with an old style atc on skinny ropes, even a dmm bug I wouldn't be happy about. I think an old style atc on an 8.5 mm rope is pushing things too far my self.

I'm not a big fan of being belayed in guide mode in general as I can't easily climb down once it's tight and if I fell off and was hanging on the rope they can be a cause of faff / epics / accidents. Obviously for a snow belay they aren't appropriate but for a semi indirect belay I think most my rock / (fat) ice belays they would be fine. After all in this case if a second falls the weight normally is redirected straight through the anchors anyway in a typical good setup, and anchors in this scenario are typically good enough to hold a factor two fall.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

You're correct of course. The problem with guide plates isn't just the extra force on the gear (in itself not necessarily a problem at all though potentially catastrophic) but also the potential for handicapping the second when they lock up.

Interested in what you say about iced 8mms failing to pass through a bugette. I can't say I've had that problem myself but, in the 8mm category, I've climbed exclusively with Icelines and Phoenix. What were the circumstances?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Bugette for winter. Bug for trad and Alpine Up for sport/working routes.

A Reverso or Pivot could replace the first two (at no cost saving however) but I appreciate the 50g weight saving offered by the Bugette as well as the reversible setup it shares with its big brother. There's never a need to rethread because you've introduced the rope back to front.

In reply to BnB:
I was using Phoenix dry treated ropes in cogne and even though it was -10 and had been much colder in the previous week the was still a little water trickling about here and there over the ice (as is typical in my opinion for proper water ice from water courses rather than snow ice or ice from snow melt). The ropes got sheathed in ice, we were already in the middle of a mini epic abseil as it was later than planned (dark etc) and the ropes wanted to fanckle at every given opportunity. We were also short on food and water given the time. We 'solved it' by anchoring the belay device and heaving the ropes through it (off break) this was hard work and wasted more valuable time ( and even after the ropes were still icey and hard work to get through the device). We got back to the hotel 15 minutes before the rescue services were about to leave looking for us at 11:45 pm, very very tired ( as the hotel owner had unbeknown to us rung them concerned, I thought our behavior was fairly normal having had 1 or 2 epics before in Scotland)

I've had similarly iced ropes in Scotland before but I wasn't using the bugette so no problem on those occurrences.

if you are comparing an direct (guide mode) belay or semi indirect belay when well setup to good anchors and bringing up a second I don't think there is often much difference on the max force on the anchors as in both cases the forces are redirected pretty much directly through the anchors (especially if semi indirect belaying standing up with anchors above your waist and tight)

In reply to BnB:


What ropes do you use the bug on for trad?

In reply to BnB:

It's funny, but I had a buggette for some twin ropes I had, and found it wore extremely fast. Literally a month in the alps and it was done. I also had a reversino (showing the age of this) and that also wore very fast. Then bought a XP Guide which still worked fine and took years to wear out. I personally think your views are a little black and white in terms of what will work and what wont. But each to their own... sure, I wouldn't want to be belayed on skinny ropes with an old atc but most of the modern devices are suitable...

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Hey Stevo - the only thing I've found that actually works with severely iced ropes is a friction hitch... well worth remembering. Infact you could argue it's the perfect method for ice as it doesn't weigh anything. There's even an autolocking version although I can't for the life of me remember how to do it...

In reply to Casa Alfredino:
Jim tit has done experiments on this. I think even the best cleaved (non locking) multi width devices you are pushing their limits on 8mm ropes (lower diameter even more so) with high factor falls as you will get rope slippage through device the more the less suitable the device. If you aren't wearing gloves you'll likely end up letting go of the ropes. Manufactures tend to over estimate the range of ropes their devices can truly support for high factor falls Imo

In reply to Casa Alfredino:


That can be a pain with half ropes though.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Mammut Infinity 9.5mm single (mine) with a Bug for grit

Edelrid something 8.5mm (partner's) for Lakes/Skye etc multipitch usually with the Bugette

In reply to CurlyStevo:
True , it can. But then in a pinch when nothing else is working, just feed the ropes together. So it might not be optimal, but its a lot better than taking your hands off to feed frozen ropes through a belay plate... Personally I use a single rope quite a bit rather than doubles but i understand that that's not everybodies preference. For cacade ice though I prefer it as it makes your ropes easier to manage and if you get the right rope, certainly no worse in terms of impact...

In reply to Richard Gilbert:

Another vote for the Buguette. Not been a problem with iced/frosted roped 99.5% of the time and even then I got by with a bit more arm work. Pros outweigh the cons for me. I personally feel I get more friction from it than my previous BD ATC-XP. A partner of mine uses an Edelrid Micro Jul, which I like the look of, although haven't personally used. It's a small gauge plate that can be used in guide mode. Might be worth some consideration as well.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Some well informed discussion in this thread which might make you question the Micro Jul (it did so for me) - Jimtitt and rgold really do know what they are talking about. Also some discussion of suitability of plates for different rope diameters: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=632169&v=1#x8210245

In reply to Mr. Lee:

I like the Buguette for summer on 8mm ropes. 8.5 I'm fine with any cleaved device and find the Buguette to graby. I find the ATC XP isn't as high friction as the ATC XP guide (I have both, the guide has different chaped cleaves and a different shaped bottom to the device)

Another vote for the DMM Buguette - BUT with a huge caveat!

I once had to do some 'long' free hanging abseils on a Buguette in the Dolomites. About half-way down I could smell burning!!! My mind then started racing.... Go faster and produce more heat, or slower and risk melting the rope. (I know this was probably only perceived, but I wasn't being too rational at the time.) DMM Buguette's are really poor at dissipating heat; and tbh they tangle rope too.

I now use an DMM Pivot (formally a BD Guide) and just tie half-hitch knots in the rope when winter climbing. The loops are easily undone with one hand, and the resulting loops help you hang the rope neatly on multi-pitch routes.

I still try to carry (and use) the DMM Buguette somewhere in my bag, but this is largely due to another horrendous experience of abseiling off a massive route in Lofoten with only an Italian Hitch and double ropes. Yep - I dropped my belay device...

For single-pitch / dry-tooling routes, I'll try to use a gri-gri. Nothing can replaces attentive belaying - but if we are honest with ourselves ... it's hard to maintain when f**ked. Backing stuff up is a must.

In reply to ERU:

Yes my Buguette can get very warm as you say. Never concerned me that there was any damage occuring to the ropes though. Probably because they generate so much friction. Maybe also because I feel confident to abseil quite fast with my Buguette and generally without the faff of a prussik.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Thanks that's interesting to know!

In reply to ERU:


Interesting. Can you elaborate? What are the bights designed for? Simply to help stack the rope on the belay or as some kind of backup in case you lose control of of the plate?

In reply to Richard Gilbert:

Smart Alpine, guide mode plus some auto blocking protection for the leader if they hit me on the head with something.

In reply to BnB:


Mainly as a backup. Easy to undo one way and almost impossible to undo if pulling the other.

In reply to Richard Gilbert:

I use a Simond Cubik, but I don't think they're made any more. I use the smooth side for general belaying in summer, and find it also works fine with iced up ropes in winter. For thin ropes in winter I use the notched side. It's been a versatile and adaptable device for so long that I've not yet felt the need to change it. I guess I'll have to look around again when it's a bit nearer to getting worn out.

In reply to Robert Durran:



Why would you be abseiling on a single strand of skinny (I assume we're talking sub 8mm, as anything bigger is not skinnier by modern standards) in a winter situation? I'v had to do 20+ abseils using 7.9mm ropes with a BD Guide Plate. I did not die. If you think that makes me a liability, then so be it. As I said, all MODERN devices will work with skinny ropes. Old devices designed for fat ropes will not

It's in no way arrogant to assume that your partner knows what they're doing, and has kit to do the job. Clearly this requires you don't climb with idiots.

In reply to Richard Gilbert:

Thank you everyone!

Lots to think about here.

RG

In reply to ianstevens:
Work for what? Abseiling? Small falls? Factor two falls without gloves? As mentioned Jim Tit has done tests on this and he found the slippage on most modern belay plates holding large factor falls on to one one of a pair of ropes would result in a lot of slippage through the plate. Belayers without gloves will probably let go of the rope due to rope burns. I'm sure most the modern plates are ok for small to moderate falls on 8mm ropes, I wouldn't want to use many of these generic devices much under that. By being able to use them to belay using fatter ropes they compromise their braking ability on the thinner ropes, it's a compromise.

In reply to ianstevens:


Oh dear, you really have totally missed the point havn't you? Go away and think about it.


Eh? I think you need to try reading what I said again.