Snow fall while in a tent

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NobleWanderer 13 Jan 2016
So I have been winter wild camping a fee times now and have hill walked in the snow, but during a conversation recently I wasn't sure what happened if you are camping when it snows.

It you get 3+ inches of snow during the night are you at risk of suffocation as your tent is fully covered with snow?

I have checked that my tent is strong enough to handle the weight of a reasonable snow fall, but I hadn't thought of this.

Any thoughts or experience?
1
 Tony the Blade 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

I wouldn't have thought that 3" of snow would be a problem (actually, I know it isn't).

The snow hits the fabric then slides down to the floor, meaning that you might have a build-up of snow around the base of your tent, but it wouldn't cover the whole tent. It would need epic amounts of snow to cover the whole tent.
In reply to NobleWanderer:

As a kid, my dad had to 'dig me out' of a snow covered tent from the outside (he was sleeping in a caravan) in the Lakes. I did not asphyxiate or suffocate and am fairly unscarred from the event.
 toad 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

I had a vango tunnel tent flattened in the lakes by a dump of very wet snow that melted almost immediately - probably wasn't pitched well enough, but we wound up with a big puddle on the top that eventually snapped a pole (was on the hill at the time, so wasn't there to stop it)
 ScottTalbot 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

Tunnel tents aren't great for snow, for the reason above.. with all tents though, as long as you give the tent a good shake, every time you wake up, just to stop the snow from building up, you should be okay. I've never heard of anyone suffocating in this situation, but that doesn't make it conclusive I guess!?!
 BedRock 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

> Any thoughts or experience?

How likely are we to hear from anyone that has experience of being suffocated?!?
Rigid Raider 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

Worry more about rain falling when you're in a snowhole....
 goatee 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

I was up near Ben Alder last February and it snowed right through the evening and night. The tent was semi buried but I didn't have a problem with shortage of air. A bigger issue was lumps of snow falling from overhead trees. A lesson there I think.
 StuDoig 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

I've been camping at the kingshouse during a big dump of snow and a couple of folk who had pitched down by the side of the bridge on the lee side were pretty much entirely buried and they didn't suffocate, though this was light powdery stuff. I think you'd need a thick covering of dense snow blanketing your tent (including the walls where the vents are)before you'd risk suffocation. Not impossible, but really unlikely I suspect.

Worst thing that happened for them was oversleeping as it was still dark, then getting a mini avalanche into their tent as they opened it up.

Cheers,

Stu



 GridNorth 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

I was once on a trek at altitude when it snowed heavily in the night. My partner and I had to get out of the tent because the snow was pressing in on us. The pressure of the snow was more apparent than any lack of air.

Al
In reply to NobleWanderer:

i've camped on quite a few occasions in the snow, the longest being 3 1/2 days in a small 2-man tent below Suilven, when it snowed for nearly 3 days non-stop. There was never any risk of suffocation, even though the snow built up all round the eaves of the flysheet, and much higher on one side. Occasionally one would have to bang the inside of the tent to make the snow slide off the roof, but mostly it slid off of its own accord. Of course, as well as the air vent, one had the inner doors unzipped an inch or two. Further points:

1. If there's a blizzard you are unlikely to sleep well or for very long. There's too much to attend to. If you are cooking in the doorway under the flysheet, or even inside the tent near the door the heat of the stove will cause the snow around and under the front flysheet/door/s to melt, and a lot of time will be spent creating, and attending to drainage channels so that water keeps away from the entrance. You will also be spending quite a bit of time attending to the water supply i.e putting snow into big plastic bottles and bringing them into the tent to melt. Then storing it/them just outside the inner doors.

2. You will of course have to open the main front door/s occasionally (c. once a day) when you go out for a 'bowel motion', so a lot of fresh air will get into the tent then.. This is a very long procedure involving having to get fully dressed in all one's outdoor winter gear in the awkward confines of the small tent. And then leave the tent, typically for a nearby outcrop to support yourself while in a squatting position and crapping into a bag. (That's taken with you later). Then the return to the tent - also a very long procedure of taking off one's outers in the front awning and trying to let as little snow from your clothing get int the inner tent as possible. Whole procedure takes c. half an hour.

3. Having a pee is much easier. While in your sleeping bag (which you'll be the whole time in a small tent) you will be wearing very little, perhaps some long johns and a thermal vest at very most. You then crouch at the very front of the inner tent (or even the front of your sleeping bag), unzip the inner doors, then the outer door/s and then stand up so that upper body is the blizzard, and pee in a leeward direction from the tent - then get straight back down into your sleeping bag zipping the doors shut as you do so. Whole procedure takes less than a minute! Very exciting ... Again, plenty of air gets into the tent, and probably some snow ...
1
In reply to NobleWanderer:

I forgot another occasion, in the Himalayas once, not far from Everest. A very dramatic blizzard lasting nearly 2 days. The snow was about 2 feet deep and most of our tents were nearly smothered. A lot of time then was spent beating the inside of the tent roof to make the heavy buildup of snow slide off, but it caused one side of the tent to cave right in in a big convex bulge (on inside of tent). The big mess tent used by the trek collapsed under the weight of the now and was completely buried. Again, I have no recollection of any risk of suffocation, because again very active. There was a hell of a strong wind too.
 Dr.S at work 13 Jan 2016
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


> 2. You will of course have to open the main front door/s occasionally (c. once a day) when you go out for a 'bowel motion', . Whole procedure takes c. half an hour.

have you considered prunes?
In reply to Dr.S at work:

That could be disastrous, in that you might not have time to get adequately dressed before having to leave the tent ...
 OwenM 13 Jan 2016
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:



> 3. Having a pee is much easier.


Use a wide mouthed plastic bottle. Empty it away from the tent.
Rigid Raider 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

You poo into a plastic bag? Are you ex-SAS? I really don't think that's necessary if you're well off the beaten track; a pit hoofed in the ground with a heel, do the job then push the material back and tread it gently down.
In reply to OwenM:

> Use a wide mouthed plastic bottle. Empty it away from the tent.

Pretty awkward to do, and in practice in a small tent with a v low ceiling you'd do that squatting at the front of the tent inside the outer flysheet. You might as well just stand up and pee over side of tent in strong wind. Very quick and easy. Of course you have to get the wind direction right! And of course this only works with very small tents e.g a large bivvy tent. As I say, it's also rather exciting. Has to be done very fast as you're standing naked from knees up in a howling blizzard for a few seconds. Of course, too, you can only do this in the wilds.

Has the advantage too, over using a bottle – if you're sharing the tent with another bloke, of having an element of privacy.
1
In reply to Rigid Raider:

> You poo into a plastic bag? Are you ex-SAS? I really don't think that's necessary if you're well off the beaten track; a pit hoofed in the ground with a heel, do the job then push the material back and tread it gently down.

Come to think of it, I'm sure we did just what you say, but I perhaps I didn't want to admit it in this PC forum.
1
 OwenM 13 Jan 2016
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

. Has to be done very fast as you're standing naked from knees up in a howling blizzard for a few seconds.

That's the bit I like to avoid.
 ScottTalbot 13 Jan 2016
In reply to Rigid Raider:

I'm sorry, but that's not deep enough! If you can't bury it properly, pack it out...
 ianstevens 13 Jan 2016
In reply to OwenM:

> Use a wide mouthed plastic bottle. Empty it away from the tent.

Remember it's not apple juice.
 bdgm 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

In the Swiss Alps years ago in late winter we had taken a tent flysheet and poles up with us to make the bivvy more comfortable without the weight of all the tent. As we went to sleep it was snowing heavily. I remember being half awake sometime in the night and hearing my mate awake and breathing more rapidly than normal. Soon he spoke to say he couldnt sleep. I was awake and aware that my breathing was not normal. Soon after he said he thought it was because of the cold that he couldnt sleep and that we needed to get the stove on for a brew.
We got the stove set up without opening the door, lit a match, it flared and quickly went straight out. I tried a second match with the same result , i may have even tried a third time before realising what had happened. Within a minute of opening the tent door we could breathe again without struggling and light the stove.
I guess there was close to a foot of snow on top of the tunnel tent and more around the bottom.
That wasnt the end of our problems, my mate decided to gently tap the flysheet from inside to knock the snow off. A big rip appeared and the pole broke. We were glad to see the next morning dawn and beat a hasty retreat down to the valley. Brett
 TobyA 13 Jan 2016
In reply to ScottTalbot:

> Tunnel tents aren't great for snow,

Odd that Hillberg tunnel tents have been almost standard issue for Antarctic and Arctic sled hauling trips for years then! Tunnel tents are by far the most common type for Scandinavia Arctic winter travel also, as shown by the fact all the Scandi brands make them.
 Pbob 13 Jan 2016
In reply to Rigid Raider:
I once went to a party in the cave (Robin Hoods Cave?) On Stanage. Woke up in the morning desparate for a poo. Too desparate to climb up or down. My chosen option was to poo on a plastic bag then use the bag to fling it a very long way and into the ferns. Glad I was the first of the 14 of us awake!

Edit - I should point out that I don't condone the indiscriminate broadcasting of faecal matter at popular climbing locations.
Post edited at 18:54
8
In reply to Pbob:

We've all done things like this, haven't we, in extremis? I remember having to have a crap on the terrace below Terrace Wall on Tryfan in 1968, before doing Terrace Wall Variant, my first V Diff lead ... mostly because I was so nervous. I covered it over with a big pile of stones. I remember the route was amazingly good and exposed, and quite demanding in big, bendy hillwalking boots, for its rather lowly standard.
2
 John Kelly 13 Jan 2016
In reply to TobyA:
> Odd that Hillberg tunnel tents have been almost standard issue for Antarctic and Arctic sled hauling trips for years then! Tunnel tents are by far the most common type for Scandinavia Arctic winter

Not great in wet snow, I suspect arctic snow is a different beast
Post edited at 20:35
 ScottTalbot 13 Jan 2016
In reply to TobyA:

After owning a vaude tunnel tent briefly, I can tell you that there's no way I'd ever use one again!
 abr1966 13 Jan 2016
In reply to ianstevens:

> Remember it's not apple juice.

Or Irn Bru.....made that mistake once!
 Dave the Rave 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

The tip is to stick a walking pole through the roof of the tent to aid ventilation if heavy snowfall is threatened.
 Heike 13 Jan 2016
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Very interesting description, but point 3 (bering easier) only applies if you are off the male half of the population, I won't go into detail, but having to go out in a major 3 day blizzard to bear your bum makes you think about other options.....(she wee, etc)



 Brass Nipples 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

I'd worry more about drowning in your tent this year.
In reply to Dave the Rave:

Er, yes, Dave.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that there is such a thing as zips on the doors. If necessary you have the outer door open a few inches, and the inner, much more so. You will also be making holes through the snow on the leeward side under the fly sheet. Plus drainage probs as I mentioned before. The thing about most serious storms/blizzards you won't be comfortably fast asleep, but mostly fully awake, concentrating on everything that needs to be done by the minute, and possibly fearful that your tent will collapse. That happened once in the outer Hebrides in a gale/hurricane in the late summer, and I went out in my underpants into the maelstrom and drove a huge angular nylon tent peg, c. 15 inches long, into the peat with a peg hammer and that was then our sole point of attachment from the one remaining small rear guy rope. After that, the roof of the tent was drumming on our faces all night (the whole tent had been reduced to less than a foot high) and the whole inner was a kind of spray of water. We got very damp but not too cold.
afghanidan 13 Jan 2016
In reply to TobyA:

> Odd that Hillberg tunnel tents have been almost standard issue for Antarctic and Arctic sled hauling trips for years then!

I think one reason tunnel tents are used in snow is ease of erection in a storm. Hilleberg sell a long sled bag so can store the tent, poles in the sleeves, rolled-up during the day. Also same-length poles makes it simple. I have a Soulo which is bombproof but a relative faff to put up.

In reply to Heike:

> Very interesting description, but point 3 (bering easier) only applies if you are off the male half of the population, I won't go into detail, but having to go out in a major 3 day blizzard to bear your bum makes you think about other options.....(she wee, etc)

Yes, it's pretty tough for your half of the population. Our very problematic male appendage is at least spectacularly useful and versatile for peeing. I can't think what other options there are for you really. But when it comes to having to crap outside a blizzard-bound tent I don't see how it's any different for you rather than a bloke. You just cannot do that, realistically, inside a very small tent. (Well, of course you would if there were no choice.)
 Luke90 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

Some quick back-of-the-envelope calculations* (based on a formula and figures I found in a discussion about the amount of breathable air in a lift) suggest that EVEN IF the tent were to be completely hermetically sealed, it would probably still contain an hour or two of breathable air for one person. With the addition of some inevitable exchange with the outside, I'm sure you'd be fine indefinitely.

Formula and discussion here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-516809.html

For another example, see the guy who just survived three days trapped in a tiny air pocket in a sunken ship: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/03/harrison-okene-rescued-video_n_437...
 Dr.S at work 13 Jan 2016
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Going back to the "shitting in a bag" thing - if you need to do this an arm length rectal glove is great, as you can catch the poo in your hand and then pull the hand into the sleeve to 'bag it up'.
HTH
 JohnV 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

There is enough oxygen in avalanche debris for you to survive. Asphyxiation occurs when warm exhaled air freezes around your face, the ice preventing you from drawing air from the rest of the snow, hence the idea of the avalung. Falling snow around your tent should be less dense than the avalanche debris example, so there should be little risk of asphyxiation.

Pee in a bottle lying on your side in your sleeping bag
1
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> Going back to the "shitting in a bag" thing - if you need to do this an arm length rectal glove is great, as you can catch the poo in your hand and then pull the hand into the sleeve to 'bag it up'.

Great? Ok, I take your word for it ... ... ...


NobleWanderer 13 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

Thanks for all the responses. I have learnt so much more than I expected
 Brass Nipples 13 Jan 2016
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Great? Ok, I take your word for it ... ... ...

I'm same as you, naked into the blizzard, do your stuff, get back in and get warm again.
In reply to Orgsm:

Just brill, isn't it? So simple.
 TobyA 13 Jan 2016
In reply to John Kelly:
> Not great in wet snow, I suspect arctic snow is a different beast

Well, sometimes, sometimes not though. It's funny because I tend to think of tunnel tents being about the strongest designs besides geodesics , as long as you pitch end into the wind. Come to think of it - there are many classic mountain tents from all over - not just the Nordic firms - that are tunnels; TNF Westwinds Vango Hurricanes, the Macpac ones - all pretty battle-hardened designs!
Post edited at 23:52
 John Kelly 14 Jan 2016
In reply to TobyA:

You make a good point

Wet snow is a tent killer, if the snow sticks and tent unattended down they go, suppose the killer app is how well they recover from that treatment, seen a few good quality tents (both geo and tunnel) give up the ghost but not sure about hilliberg, - counting mission for next couple months

You out this weekend, deep snow here now, forecast of possible this weekend, folk on helvelyn yesterday
 TobyA 14 Jan 2016
In reply to John Kelly:

Yes - good quality tents (silicon flys I think), pitched well tend to shed snow quite readily, even when wet - tunnels included. But if they aren't taught, absolutely, weight of snow can do the damage.

I've seen the photos - it looks great! People have even been out on skis it seems too, which is also a nice sounding idea. I'm going to try and do a day trip. Haven't found anyone to climb with yet (are you looking for a partner?), but will happily go for a solo mission if nothing else. Haven't decided whether Wales or the Lakes yet either - about the same drive to both for me.
 John Kelly 14 Jan 2016
In reply to TobyA:

Silicon fly - think that is probably the difference
Weekend - maybe message you tomorrow cheers john
llechwedd 14 Jan 2016
In reply to ScottTalbot:

> I'm sorry, but that's not deep enough! If you can't bury it properly, pack it out...

With the reintroduction of wolves on the cards, wouldn't it be better to shit on the surface near your tent?
I was thinking that maybe it would work like the lion poo you can get from garden centres to scare away cats
 ScottTalbot 14 Jan 2016
In reply to llechwedd:

Haha! Is that really on the cards? We get a few more foxes, because of the hunting ban, and they already want to start killing them again!?! I can't see wolves ever being reintroduced, except possibly in the most remote areas of the Highlands..
llechwedd 14 Jan 2016
In reply to ScottTalbot:

tHe quIck Brown FOx jumps over ThE Lazy log..
 Andypeak 14 Jan 2016
In reply to llechwedd:


> With the reintroduction of wolves on the cards, wouldn't it be better to shit on the surface near your tent?

> I was thinking that maybe it would work like the lion poo you can get from garden centres to scare away cats
Peaing in a circle around your tent keeps hyenas away in Africa. Might work for wolves?
 Bulls Crack 15 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

Snow fall while in a tent?

You must have a very permeable canvas.

andrew breckill 15 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

Never been fully submerged by snow, had a six - 12 inch snowfall on the tent a few times, it just rolls off and builds up round the base. Makes for a rather toasty night as it keeps a bit of heat in.
I also used to worry about this issue until I had a few nights in heavy snow. ;-0
 pec 15 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

Regarding this peeing in a tent business, I can highly recommend one of these which come in male and female versions.
https://www.manfred-sauer.co.uk/urinals.asp
Available on Amazon etc, these pack very small, have a large capacity and are every easy to use, I sometimes use mine without even getting out of my sleeping bag, I just kneel up, insert and "let go". I then leave it in the porch and deal with it in the morning.
 Brass Nipples 15 Jan 2016
In reply to pec:

Your sleeping bag has a porch? I'm impressed.
 ScottTalbot 16 Jan 2016
In reply to pec:

I'm saving that gem! That looks pretty useful for winter (hell, ANY) camping...
 Roadrunner5 18 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

> So I have been winter wild camping a fee times now and have hill walked in the snow, but during a conversation recently I wasn't sure what happened if you are camping when it snows.

> It you get 3+ inches of snow during the night are you at risk of suffocation as your tent is fully covered with snow?

> I have checked that my tent is strong enough to handle the weight of a reasonable snow fall, but I hadn't thought of this.

> Any thoughts or experience?

I don't think this is true. As someone says high CO 2 from poor ventilation will cause you wake up. Our bodies have inbuilt alarms for high CO2, more so than low O2.

Carbon monoxide doesn't set off any alarms, it binds to haemoglobin, instead of the O2 and we die.

Slow suffocation would lead to high CO2 and us waking. The risk from death would be if you wee burning any fuel or material.
 kipper12 19 Jan 2016
In reply to Luke90:

Did you consider the build up of CO2, its the real killer in confined spaces - ref Apollo 13.
 Roadrunner5 19 Jan 2016
In reply to kipper12:
It is but as I said, and another person said they experienced it, you have time to rectify it in a tent. You will get sleep apnea, shortness of breath etc, wake, and want air.. We've all done this without knowing it. Get in a tight sleeping bag covering your head and wake up and want a few mouthfuls of fresh air.. That's our body saying 'the air you are breathing had too much CO2'.

Carbon monoxide wouldn't set off the same alarms.
 Trangia 19 Jan 2016
In reply to GridNorth:

> I was once on a trek at altitude when it snowed heavily in the night. My partner and I had to get out of the tent because the snow was pressing in on us. The pressure of the snow was more apparent than any lack of air.

> Al

I've had my tent totally buried overnight by a heavy snow fall in the Himalayas. As you say the problem is the sheer reduction in volume of the tent as it presses down on you under the weight of snow, rather than lack of air. We had to dig it out and re-pitch it more than once.

The other problem is when camping on a glacier in intense sunlight when the surrounding snow and ice melts, but not that under you, which gives the illusion that the floor is rising up to meet the roof! Again you have to re-pitch after a couple of days.
 wilkie14c 19 Jan 2016
In reply to NobleWanderer:

Trail mix and flapjacks through the day mean that a night of gently farting will keep the tent interior just warm enough to keep the tent clear. Breathing may still be troublesome though
 Trangia 19 Jan 2016
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>
> 3. Having a pee is much easier. While in your sleeping bag (which you'll be the whole time in a small tent) you will be wearing very little, perhaps some long johns and a thermal vest at very most. You then crouch at the very front of the inner tent (or even the front of your sleeping bag), unzip the inner doors, then the outer door/s and then stand up so that upper body is the blizzard, and pee in a leeward direction from the tent - then get straight back down into your sleeping bag zipping the doors shut as you do so. Whole procedure takes less than a minute! Very exciting ... Again, plenty of air gets into the tent, and probably some snow ...


Even easier (for a man) to carry a wide necked water bottle as a pee bottle. So long as the neck is wide enough to insert your willy *, you can do it without even getting out of your sleeping bag, and then just tip it out of the door.

* Not too tight a fit though, or you will get a blow back!!
 Luke90 19 Jan 2016
In reply to kipper12:
> Did you consider the build up of CO2, its the real killer in confined spaces - ref Apollo 13.

That's exactly what the formula I referenced is calculating. I can't vouch for its accuracy but that's what it claims to do.
 Roadrunner5 19 Jan 2016
In reply to Luke90:

> That's exactly what the formula I referenced is calculating. I can't vouch for its accuracy but that's what it claims to do.

And even if it did you would wake up..
In reply to Trangia:

> Even easier (for a man) to carry a wide necked water bottle as a pee bottle. So long as the neck is wide enough to insert your willy *, you can do it without even getting out of your sleeping bag, and then just tip it out of the door.

> * Not too tight a fit though, or you will get a blow back!!

I think the main thing was that although some snow had been forecast, which was why we went, because it was going to make the chosen viewpoint of Suilven look very photogenic, we weren't expecting a 3-day blizzard. I.e, that we were going to be stuck in our tent for three days. So we weren't prepared with pee bottles etc. Also, we were carrying four days food and fuel, tons of warm clothing, plus all the camping gear plus a huge amount of medium format (Hasselblad) camera gear which was very heavy (at least 20 lbs with tripod). So we didn't want to carry any more than we had to. I think the walk in was c.5 miles. The walk out was v arduous because of thick, drifted snow.

 Flinticus 21 Jan 2016
In reply to Roadrunner5:

I've had this a couple times, sleeping with a big hood on my bag and face into the tent wall. Always accompanied by weird, repetititve dreams, usually of trying to get up or open the tent but unable to move / open zip before I do finally wake up. Can be really unsettling.

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