UKH

My wife must have seen me looking covetously at the Black Diamond Fuel axes in a shop at some point because I got one for Christmas! She could only afford one so I will have to buy another.

I'm very excited about this because I have toyed with the idea of getting something a little more aggressive than my Vipers since almost all my winter climbing has been on European ice and I happen to think the Fuel is the best looking axe out there.

However, having moved north this year I have intended to stay home this season and get some proper British winter climbing under my belt and here lies my problem. There is no option for an adze or hammer for the Fuel's.

It might be hard to justify buying another axe without getting rid of my Vipers. Can I get away with climbing in the UK without and adze or hammer and sell the Vipers to fund the second Fuel? Or should I keep both for the different jobs they are suited to?

In reply to neilwiltshire:

What do you need the adze and hammer for?

In reply to J_Trottet:
In the UK the use of pegs in winter can be essential at times. On occasion I've found the whole belay has been placed pegs or the only runner on a pitch.

An adze is useful especially if a T axe belay must be made out of neve. That would take forever with just an ice pick. I think out of the two I could do without an adze but no hammer could be a show stopper!

In reply to neilwiltshire:

For ice Fuels work really well.

And I'd I didn't bang in that much stuff whilst in Scotland. So I'm sure you could do without a hammer (and certainly without an adze).

Worst come, get a piton hammer and carry that like most of the euro-mixed climbers do. Ergo-grip tools are shite anyway at hammering in stuff...

In reply to neilwiltshire:

I've managed fine without an adze or hammer on my Nomics and now my Kronos on Welsh winter stuff from grade 1-4. I haven't climbed in Scotland but have quite a bit in the US and Norway.

I've driven in a few pegs with the back of the head just fine. Dug a couple of seats just by hacking and using feet. Once it gets into steep ice territory I don't think you'd miss them at all.

In reply to George Fisher:
In Scotland its not at all uncommon to need to build snow belays in hard neve after a steep ice pitch. Another option for this is to carry a dead man.

If you can construct a desent bucket seat without too much trouble, then the snow probably wasn't all that hard.

I saw online a few people have used the fuels to drive in pegs (using the back of the head) without a hammer without too much bother.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It is possible to dig out neve with a technical tool however (how often does it actually need to be done though?).

Personally I've never needed to place a peg in winter but maybe that's due to the fact I've only mostly been climbing well trafficked routes where gear is plentiful.

In reply to J_Trottet:
Yeah well everything is possible I guess, its just how much of your life do you want to spend proving the point

Lots of the routes on the Ben in Spring have neve slopes above technical pitches with only snow belays available, really its quite common! (in those conditions I commonly carry a deadman as its so much quicker than digging a t axe belay in neve even with an adze, however a hammer is useful still banging in the deadman).

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It's why I was asking the question really, all comes down to whether you're willing to sacrifice some practicalities for technical performance and the type of climbing you're doing.

As you said, if you're mostly doing Ben routes in late session then it might make sense to have an adze. And if you're doing routes where you expect to drive in pegs then it definitely makes sense to have a hammer. For what it's worth, I got hammers even just for hammering in hexes as I'm not convinced by using the aluminum heads my axes have.

In reply to J_Trottet:

If the head is aluminium it won't stand up long to driving in steel angles for sure.

I'm sure I could do without an adze or hammer but I doubt I'd climb any harder I have the bronze vipers currently with the micro adze / hammer although they haven't seen much UK use yet, previously I had quarks (the version before last).

In reply to neilwiltshire:

Thanks for the responses. All the opinions offered - looks like it might be a suck it and see situation to see how I get on.

I have absolutely no qualms about european ice without the adze or hammer, I've climbed in Norway, Cogne and La Grave and have never needed to use pitons or snow for belays.

But its starting to sound like getting a deadman might be the way to go.

In reply to neilwiltshire:
Anyone used one of these?

http://www.joe-brown.com/3486/products/climbing-technology-snow-anchor.aspx


vs these which I have actually used once and found to be pretty effective:

http://www.bergfreunde.co.uk/msr-msr-snow-picket-snow-anchor/?pid=10004&cpk...

In reply to neilwiltshire:
I would avoid snow pickets they are notoriously poor anchors (studies have been done on this if you care to dig them out ) They can be ok if you place them more like a buried axe in neve, however if you just bang them in and clip the top, or in typical snow personally I wouldn't trust them.

I doubt the hollow one is that good too especially in poor snow although I've never seen one like that before.

Stick to bucket seats, buried axes and / or a deadman

In reply to CurlyStevo:


That's potentially resolvable with the old skool approach of carrying a peg hammer or better a lightweight 3rd tool.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Sure someone else mentioned similar higher up on the thread.

In reply to neilwiltshire:

Well depending on condition I might be interested in the Vipers, first dibs please if you do get rid.

In reply to Andrew Lodge:

Thanks for the interest. The condition is good, they're well used over 3 seasons but will let you know as soon as I make a decision.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Ok so no snow anchors - does that include Deadman's or are they ok?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

My experience with Nomics is that it is basically impossible to remove pegs because of the curved shaft and ergo grip.

Also, the ergo grips don't plunge well in good neve. Plus the axes are less stable because the curved shaft makes them more prone the leveraging out. Better just to plunge Nomics longways, although know this is crap. At least the angled shaft is working in favour rather than against. I take a pair of Quarks if expecting lots of snow belays and less difficulty.

Essentially it's a trade off. Best axe for knocking in pegs and belaying is something with a totally straight shaft, no fancy grips, and a nice big spike at the end.

In reply to neilwiltshire:

Everything has its place. But for Scotland I would normally consider pickets inferior to a deadman, neither of which is essential really as you can bury your axes for a belay. Personally I carry a deadman for certain conditions / routes.

In reply to Mr. Lee:


For sure......

In reply to neilwiltshire:

Seems like everything is pointing towards just seeing how I get on without before making a decision. This means buying a second Fuel before I get rid of the Vipers in case I decide I really need the adze and hammer. May also mean getting a Deadman in the short term.

I guess the good news is there does appear to be Fuels available online for £130 at the moment which Snow + Rock or Cotswold will price match.

Thanks everyone for the input. Much appreciated.

In reply to neilwiltshire:
You can still make buried axe belays from Fuels. In typical snow conditions its probably not much (any?) more time consuming.

Anyway you may find this interesting. The tests were done in poorly consolidated snow, hence the very low max force failures. In these conditions I would consider body belaying and bucket seats de rigour (alongside a snow anchor or two)

http://www.mountainrescuescotland.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Mag-29-Low...

In reply to CurlyStevo:

That was really interesting, thanks for that. The cattle horn configuration looks like a good option, that or the deadman.