UKH

Hi there!
Looking for some advice to help plan my upcoming trip in Scotland. My partner and I will be there over the New Years holiday, and plan to stay in Edinburgh on the 31/1st, leaving on the 2nd to travel in the rest of the country. Basically we have from January 2-8th to go wherever we want. We would love to do some ice climbing.

We are from Colorado, and apt at mountaineering (sorry I am still trying to figure out the Scottish grade system), he is comfortable leading WI4, me following that. Ideally we would be looking for single pitch ice with not a lot of mixed (I'm dealing with a knee injury that doesn't like mixed), preferably not a long approach as I know there isn't going to be a lot of daylight. Am I asking the impossible?

Backup to that, are there any fun couloirs that don't have crazy avalanche danger that time of year? Winter is not couloir season in Colorado, but I admit I haven't done the research yet for Scotland avy.

Also, does anyone have a recommendation for a guide company? Although we are quite comfortable skill-wise on our own, we have realized it might be easier to not haul all our own gear overseas just for a few days of climbing. It may also help save us from wandering about with a guide book in the dark, trying to find a route.

Thanks!!

In reply to meg383:

There is a very good chance you're asking the impossible.

In general terms, you've probably got a one in three chance of really good conditions, a one in three chances of marginal conditions and a one in three chance of finding no ice whatsoever. Also, conditions change so quickly, you probably won't know more than 3-4 days in advance what conditions are likely to be.

However, even if conditions are 'good' for January in Scotland, chances of lots of lower-level ice routes being in condition at that time are fairly low. There are a handful fairly reliable ice pitches that form early season but if you take Aladdin's Mirror Direct in the Northern Corries as an example, you are looking at a 70+minute walk-in to climb a grand total of 15metres of WI3. Pretty much anywhere else you are looking at 2+hours if anything is in condition and even then, you might only be looking at one or perhaps two short pitches.


We call them 'gullies' and you'll probably have a far, far wider selection
For example the Northern Corries have a very good range of fun and generally safe gully climbs from grade I to III, mostly about 130m long. There is also a better than even chance of them being in condition in early January. In other areas the gullies are generally longer but so are the approaches.
As a rule of thumb, Scottish Grade III gullies includes snow (and some ice) up to an angle of 60 degrees. Also, as far as avalanche information is concerned there are detailed forecasts covering the main climbing areas throughout the season at http://www.sais.gov.uk


I could easily recommend a dozen individual guides but an easy starting point is http://www.themic.org.uk Anyone listed there is highly experienced and fully qualified. They will expect to provide ropes and all ice screws etc. but outside of the national centres - Glenmore Lodge and Plas y Brenin, I am not completely certain who routinely supplies axes and crampons if you were not bringing them over. Your best bet is to fill in the enquiry form http://www.themic.org.uk/enquiry/ with as much information as possible and individuals who are available will be able to get back to you directly.

In reply to meg383:
For that time of year your best bet for ice is probably Ben Nevis. Last year around that time I stayed up there for the weekend and we had a great time as the ice conditions were brilliant. Some routes that fit what you are looking for are The Curtain (IV 5), Waterfall Gully (IV 4), Vanishing Gully (V 5) although these routes are quite low so its totally hit and miss. Some of these are up to 3 pitches but you can quickly abseil down them or walk off the side and they are very close to the hut. It might be the case these routes wont come into condition, it just depends.

I'm up there that very weekend staying in the CIC hut. We hope to do a few ice routes as well if conditions are good. Drop me an email if you fancy meeting up and we can maybe point you in the direction of stuff. I could also maybe let you know what the conditions are like up there as we are heading up Jan 1st.

Oh and I don't know what your definition of short approach is, but its about an hour and a half to the hut from the car park. That puts you quite close to the routes I've mentioned. You're looking a minimum of 1 hour approach generally in Scotland but 90mins to 2 hours is quite typical.

Hope that helps!

Cheers,
Martin

In reply to meg383:

Sounds like you want good (i.e. cold) low level conditions which are definitely not usual but can happen that time of year. But then don't we all?!

Plenty of options if that were to be the case, some good venues being Udlaidh, Eilde 'Canyon', Glen Coe etc. But don't hold your breath.

In reply to meg383:
A very short walk in for Scotland would be around 1.5 hours and that leaves you very limited in choice, especially in typical conditions. If there is an exceptional freeze (say a 1 one in 5 year freeze) then perhaps there will be some venues with a shorter walk in than that. Typically only the higher venues are in good condition and at that time of your typically mainly the mixed routes are in condition.

A normal walk in for Scotland is around 2.5 hours. Ben Nevis to the base of the higher crags more like 3-3.5 hours, although as another poster mentioned sometimes the lower crags are in condition and they are more like a 1.5 - 2 hour walk in.

The easiest walk in reliable crags are:
Coire an t Scheacda 1.5 hours in average conditions (nearly all mixed climbing but the odd ice route, typically not as avalanche prone as some venues if you stay away from fiacaill buttress as a little W in the facing and west is our prevailing wind)
Aonach Mor West face 1.25 hours or so from the gondola, all mixed, faces west so often low avalanche risk, base of the crag is a bit low.
Aonach Mor East face about an hour to the crag base from the top lift if you don't have skis, a few ice routes and lots of mixed, can have problematic cornices and high avalanche risk.

Apart from the typically regular thaws its the wind and avalanche risk that are you main problems. These sites should prove useful:

http://www.sais.gov.uk/
http://www.mwis.org.uk/scottish-forecast
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/mountain-forecast/#?tab=mountain...
Who knows what will happen with the weather though.

In reply to meg383:

The best thing to do is to choose your venue a day or 2 before climbing and be prepared to travel east or west from your chosen accommodation. Forecasts change at short notice and the wind and weather can be savage. Generally speaking, if the wind is from the east, go west for less mist and vice versa.

Pay attention to what the freezing level is doing for a week before your visit and then maybe ask again on here at shorter notice for conditions recommendations. This website is useful for synoptic charts and weather forecasts
www.mwis.org.uk
I also combine that with the met office mountain forecasts
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/mountain-forecast/#?tab=mountain...

If there is a decent lower level freeze then venues like Beinn Udlaidh can be good - 95% of the routes here are water ice.

There are lots of decent guiding services in Scotland, maybe someone else can give some recommendations...

In reply to meg383:

Wow, great stuff here! Glad we decided to post. I am Matt, Meg's partner. Seems like we will have ample opportunity to enjoy the outdoors during our week there. 1-2 hours certainly falls under "short approach" for us. I also would not mind doing a bit of mixed. These "gullies" sound great - here in North America, technical couloir climbing is my favorite type of climbing.

I would also love to get in a big route on Ben Nevis - but would likely need a partner. Meg may or may not be up for that. I am a competent rock, ice and snow climber and have several international big mountain expeditions under my belt.

Anyway - we will check back in soon after doing some more research. We are very much looking forward to climbing on the other side of the pond! Thanks again for all the replies, this seems like a great community!!

Matt

In reply to I Man:

Of the bigger grade V ice routes on Ben Nevis, Hadrian's Wall and Point 5 form earlier than some of the others but can easily just be powdery rubbish at that time of year - it really does depend on what the weather does between now and then. Mixed climbing is more likely at that time of year, but in Scotland anything can happen. make sure you stay somewhere with a decent drying room, unless you enjoy drying out wet kit on your body in the pub of course.

In reply to I Man:

You've got the jist of things from others but flexability is the key here in Scotland at that time of year try not to have any must do routes or you may be dissapointed.
Have a Plan a,b,c,d and e and I'm sure you'll have a great time.

cheers

Gaz

In reply to I Man:

With pretty specific goals, no local knowledge and a partner question, I think you'd be crazy not to book a Guide or MIC.

Some local experts that I can personally recommend:

http://www.access-mountain.com/
http://www.abacusmountainguides.com/
http://www.westcoast-mountainguides.co.uk/
http://www.mountainmotion.co.uk/

In reply to meg383:

Hi Meg/Ian

I'm sure they already are but worth mentioning that your mountain navigation skills need to be fully up to speed for the descents, poor visibility/white outs are quite common... again this is where a local partner or a guide will be an invaluable/essential until you are confident you know the crags well enough to descend safely in zero visibility.

The comment above around 'depends on what the weather does' cannot be over-stated, it is absolutely essential you take it fully on board in term of what conditions you might get and try not to have any prior expectations, things can change very quickly. Be perpared to travel at fairly short notice to take advantage of any good conditions and also bear in mind if there is a lot snow travel on minor roads/approaches could be very challenging, tap into local advice wherever possible when planning - Scotland can be the land of heartbreak even if you live up here!

Good luck!

In reply to Jamie B:


Crazy? Maybe just adventurous?

In reply to meg383:

In case you've not found it this is a pretty good starting point.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/winter.html

In reply to meg383:

That early in the season there are no guarantees that anything will be in condition. In general you can maximise your chances by going high or east. The northern corries of cairngorm, ben nevis and aonach mor are the most popular areas for a reason.

My advice is to be flexible and try not to commit yourself to any particular area until the last minute.

If you have a car and don't mind getting up early then consider locations in between the main climbing areas. I have managed to make Kingussie work for this.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Crazy may have been over-stating it, but I am a firm believer that you'll get more done anywhere with a local guide, especially on a first trip.

In reply to Jamie B:

I can certainly understand the mindset of "getting more done" with a local partner or guide, but as stated above - using a guide is not typically for us. In fact, it is in direct contrast to my personal climbing ethics. When I climb in the greater ranges I climb mostly in alpine style and fully unsupported and have never used a guide anywhere in the world. At the very core of it, a guide goes against the main reasons that I climb.

That being said - this trip is different for us and we see the benefit of a guide. However, I think it will be cost prohibitive as initial quotes for a guide for a single day are similar to how much I pay round trip to fly onto glaciers in Alaska. I will find the resources very useful though.

For now we are thinking we will get accommodations and a car (perhaps?) and just be flexible. I will be *hopeful* that I can find a partner who wants to do a gully climb with me (Something in the M3/4, WI3/4 range - sorry again for not knowing Scottish Grading Systems). As a last resort I would hire a guide as a partner, but would expect to climb as partners and not as a client/guide relationship.


We are looking forward to finalizing plans and then will be flexible. We understand how these things go. Thanks again everybody, hope my post doesn't sound terribly off-putting.

In reply to I Man:

Totally "get" your approach and applaud it - bon chance!

In reply to I Man:
Good for you, don't listen to the punters on here, they like having there hands held, do some research, then just get stuck in, you will have a brill time, Scottish winter climbing is pretty unique.

In reply to I Man:

tbh gully climbing in December and January is usually poor and getting safe stable snow is harder. concentrate on the Scottish mixed it's what makes the climbing special.

I suspect you'll find partners. I would strongly suggest hiring a car and get in touch with the smc to Base yourself at the raeburn hut. it's about half the price of hostels.

if you can cheaply get either smc selected Scottish winter climbs or the recent cicerone cairngorm winter climbs and Ben Nevin and glencoe you'll be able to get a grounding on what to expect on the flight over.

on the up side UK guides /instructors don't expect a tip on top of their day rate. have fun