UKH

I've read so many articles on what to wear and I seem to be making no progress as everyone has different methods.

I'll be needing to dress for Scottish winter climbing and the alps throughout the year for now. I sweat easily when working hard but I'm not great with the cold at the same time, my feet and hands get particularly cold.

So far my feet are sorted (baturas + merino wool socks)

My understanding is that brynje base layers are mostly agreed to be the best base layers you can get (other than looks)

After this I'm lost. I would like some examples of your best layers on top and bottom. I'm 6 foot 1 and about 12.5 stone with a 30 inch waist so generally I need clothes that are quite long, any brands I should avoid?

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Are you a 'light is right' kinda person, or a 'i don't mind the extra grams' kinda person?

Remember that lighter garments are less durable, especially when brushing against Chamonix granite.

Any way, here's an example of what I might wear.

Base Layer:
RAB MeCo (long sleeved)

Wind Top (on top of the base layer for the walk in, only of its not raining/snowing)
RAB Alpine pull on or RAB Cirus top

Insulation:
ME Eclipse hoody (Fleece)
Patagonia Nano Air hoody (synthetic layer if its a bit colder or combine the 2 if it's baltic!)

Soft Shell:
Patagonia Levitation Hoody

Hardshell (if the weather craps out. Or I'd do away with the soft shell if when I started out it was particularly crappy):
Patagonia M10

'Belay' jacket:
Berghaus Ilam down jacket (for those nice days)
Patagonia Nano Puff (for those not quite so nice days. It's not a dedicated belay jacket but it does the job, for me.)

Softshell troos:
ME Ibex or Mammut Advanced Base Jump II (both brilliant, add some thermals for extra warmth)

Hardshell troos:
Marmot precip full zip (cheapish and can be put on whilst still wearing crampons if need be)

Sallopettes (if you really want the full rustle effect)
Patagonia super alpine bibs (expensive but bomber!)

By all means, this may not suit you but it works for me. It's a minefield out there regarding the 'perfect' layering system.

Some even go for Paramo

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Here's what I wear:

Brinje Mesh Tshirt
ME Eclipse Hooded Zip Tee (very good fit, balaclava and hood are very useful to keep your face warm
Rab Strata Vest (if cold, or doing long route) (fairly breathable, fit is good but not amazing, vest is good and leaves your arms free for climbing)
Haglofs Skarn Winter (Softshell) or Hardshell if weather is bad (Skarn Winter fit is almost perfect. This jacket is amazing)

Icebreaker merino wool leggings
Arc'teryx Theta SV Salopettes (Extremely durable, fantastic build quality and features. Only gripe is the crotch is a little too high...)

ME Fitzroy (Belay jacket)
I do like the Fitzroy but it has terrible armlift to the point that is difficult to climb in. I'm looking to replace it when I get some more cash. I understand how you're not supposed to climb in a belay jacket, however I find that I do on occasion.

I'm 6'0 and 70kg. I generally find ME Hardshells and Haglofs softshells fit me almost perfectly with zero hem lift when arms are raised up

In reply to Liamhutch89:
What is right for you will not be right for everyone else.I favour light flexible system,not wearing 85 layers all the time.

I don't wear baselayers.

ME ultratherm or Patagonia R1 hoody next to skin.

Softshell over top,or occasionally Goretex.

Patagonia Backcountry Guides, no overtrousers needed.

Pay attention to gloves,hoods,hats,wrists.

Good for winter walking/winter climbing/skiing.

ME Fitzroy or Patagonia DAS as belay jacket.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

The 'system' I use is pretty much bombproof. But like all individually recomended systems they'll work for the poster but not necessarily you. "Were all individuals" (monty python)

Synthetic shirt + medium fleecy. any kind not particularily bothered as long as it can be vented.

A thin windproof. Currently using something I found cheap, non branded for about £15.

Down duvet type vest if it gets chilly.

"Belay jacket???? Move quick and keep the goretex jacket on.

A Goretex jacket of some kind.

Simond trousers from Decathlon - cost £35 or similiar. Full length zip goretex O/Ts.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

I think you're asking a question for which there isn't an answer. I agree it's individual but it's also about what the weather is like and what kind of route you're doing/how fast you're moving. Also using your layers properly is important, you can have the best system in the world but it's very easy to misjudge when to adjust your clothes or to saturate your layers in sweat because you kept a layer on too long.

If I had to pick a typical layering for a day on the ben, for example, it would be a brynje mesh short sleeve with a thin windproof smock on top for the walk in and then either ron hills or a pair of trousers I'm happy to keep on all day. A rab vapour rise goes either on top of the mesh top (or on top of the windproof if the weather isn't too bad) and a pair of over trousers if I've walked in in the 'hills. Usually coincides with harness, crampons, axes out and hemet on. If you really suffer with cold feet this is a good time to quickly change your socks, imo this or walking in in trainers is the only real way to guarantee warm feet if you struggle with circulation. If you do all this in 5 minutes and you wont get cold.

This will usually see me to the route, my outer shell (usually a gtx jacket more for weight than anything else but occasionally I'll take a soft shell, I don't sweat much) stays in the top of my bag with my belay jacket underneath it so once at your route it's under a minute till you're either racking up or all cosy in your belay jacket and laying down the ropes ready to belay.

Hands is more weather dependent and there's been plenty written on it, some days washing up gloves with liners work well, other times thick climbing soft shell gloves work well. There's no way but to go out and experiment, fwiw I don't like the freezer gloves but the yellow pile lined leather work gloves are a good cheap start. I usually manage liner gloves up until the approach when a thin pair of waterproof mitts come out if I'm holding the axe, keep your nice climbing gloves stuffed down under your arm pits dry and ready for climbing then when they get wet ditch them in the bag and put fresh ones under your clothes, big belay mitts in your belay jacket pocket.

The slower you are the more clothes you'll need and the more you'll need to keep changing them during the day.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Crikey Nick, do you run really hot?

I wear pretty much the same but with a base layer top and bottom and still get chilly at times. You're a harder man than me.....

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Much the same as you, but don't really suffer from cold feet and hands, but maybe I've got those sorted. I run hot and then get cold, so there's always a compromise. My upper half overheats more than my legs. 6 feet and 11 1/2 stone, long arms.

For Scottish winter I wear the following:

I swear by Decathlon. Currently wear decathlon winter running tights (the ones without zips at the ankles and made out of a sort of lycra/powerstretch stuff. Those go under a pair of softshell trousers (rab at the moment, previously Mammut). As far as those go, it's all about the fit - most of the ones that are long enough in the leg are huge around the waist.

Decathlon base layer for top half, or Odlo which is really good and lasts for ever seemingly.

I walk in wearing that, with a Montane featherlite smock if it's windy. (if it's really windy, then I snap and crackle like a galleon in full sail).

Once it's climbing time, I wear a powerstretch jumper tucked into my trousers. Montane smock may go over that. The a softshell jacket - last one was a Macpac one which was the best piece of clothing I've ever owned. Now I have a Marmot one, which has nicely long sleeves. I don't wear hardshell because I get too hot and clammy in them. Finally, and most importantly, a merino buff. I have a Patagonia belay jacket for stances. That's sometimes inside an ultralight Marmot waterproof if the weather's really vile.

Gloves - always wear a thin polypropylene or merino liner. BD Punishers or Outdoor Research equivalents.

Then one of those little sitting on insulating mats attached by a piece of shock cord and a micro-krab to my rucksack. Something to sit on/lean on and stop heat wasting away.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

It's not complicated really, all you need to do is plan for these scenarios:

cold/wet/windy/active
cold/wet/windy/not so active
cold/wet/still/active
cold/wet/still/not so active
cold/dry/windy/active
cold/dry/windy/not so active
cold/dry/still/active
cold/dry/still/not so active
warm/wet/windy/active
warm/wet/windy/not so active
warm/wet/still/active
warm/wet/still/not so active
warm/dry/windy/active
warm/dry/windy/not so active
warm/dry/still/active
warm/dry/still/not so active

In reply to Liamhutch89:

The one thing in here I can't understand is the number of people layering OVER a lightweight pertex windproof with a less windproof layer like a lightweight softshell.

I... that's just silly.

In reply to galpinos:



I suspect I wear less than Nick, R1+pertex is my favoured activewear in Scottish winter, a thermal as well if very cold. It's certainly not about being hard, I just prefer to start cold and warm up, rather than start warm and boil.

Obvious if climbing means standing around for more than a few minutes I'll have some extra insulation of some sort handy.

In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:


I'd second this especially as you mention getting sweaty, but also feeling the cold. MeCo has the benefit of being mostly MErino wool, but is mixed with a synthetic fibre and COcona for faster drying when wet. It doesn't dry as quickly as my Arc'Teryx Phase base layer, but it's significantly warmer, and dries quicker than my Icebreaker or Smartwool baselayers.

It's worth bearing in mind that the walk-in, and the climb may require different systems to each other. I often walk in in a base layer and Rab Boreas pull on (fairly wind resistant, very breathable), but will change to a more climbing oriented softshell or waterproof for climbing in with a fleece underneath. Only the base layer stays the same. I then have an insulated jacket (A'T Dually) to go over the top for belaying in.

In reply to The New NickB:


If I start a pitch cold, my fingers freeze which for me is worse than possible overheating!

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

I'm really talking about the walk in, I should be pretty well warmed up by the time any climbing starts.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

I use the same layers I use in 'summer' but with addition of cheap softshell trousers to go over the ronhills, one extra fleece, balaclava, skiing gloves (for leading) and dachstein mitts (for seconding and belaying). Chemical handwarmers are also good to have.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Top

Walk in

Long sleeve Brynje
Outdoor Research Centifuge Hoody (windy/dry)
MEC T2 Hoody (Polartec Powerdry High efficiency grid fleece) (still/dry)
Nike Windpro front/Powerstretch back gilet

Climbing

Patagonia Readymix jacket (thin stretchy non membrane predecessor to Levitation)
(if pissing down, Patagonia M10 waterproof or cheapo Outdoor Pesearch Pertex shield jacket for thrutching)

Belaying/ stops

Primaloft bodywarmer (micropuff) if not too cold or Rab Alpine Generator if cold or both if baltic

Bottom

Brynje + Rab Neoshell (pissing down)
Patagonia Mixmaster (cold anything upto heavy drizzle/sleet)
Patagonia Backcountry Guides (if not too cold/wet)

In reply to Ysgo:

Does it have the same long term anti smell qualities as 100% merino?

In reply to Siward:

Almost as good. Again it's midway between pure merino and completely synthetic. My girlfriend hasn't complained yet!

In reply to neuromancer:



I do it quite a lot, because it's an extra layer for trapped air, because it lets other layers run smoothly over it, and when I get to the top I peel layers off to get to my walking off arrangement. My softshell on the top is pretty windproof.

In reply to Liamhutch89:
I also run pretty hot.

On the top I use an arc'teryx Phase SL or AR baselayer (depending on how cold it is) and nothing else for the walk in (if it's raining a bit or it's really warm I'll just change the baselayer before the climb unless it's pouring down) - I'd like to try a brynje for the hype, but don't know how well it'll work on it's own and a certainly couldn't wear anything more than a baselayer on most walkins (down to -20 when not too blustery or rainy).

For the climb I'll add a lightweight softshell (non-membrane, currently an ME one with powerstrech side panels and a hood, soon to be an Arc'teryx Psiphon). I've got an arc'teryx nuclei for belay jacket when stopped (tiny, warm and can clip on your harness), and have a marmot alpinist hardshell for further warmth/wind/rain resistance if required (good venting), and gives you a backup if the soft shell gets soaked by a not quite so frozen waterfall (has happened a couple of times, but not in Scotland).

Sometimes I'll add a smartwool phd gillet (thin merino back, insulated merino front) for either the walk in, or under my softshell climbing if it's really cold.

On my legs I am currently just wearing paramo enduro trousers (get the cascada II if you go this way, cheaper with little to know actual difference) but have used montane thermo stretch. Both are essentially weather proof (don't get cold or particularly wet) and can vent 3/4 way up the legs for walking and high exertion. I find without wearing different trousers for the walkin (shorts?!) which would be a pain with crampons, this is the only way I can not get cold and not melt (can't move in hardshells without melting and equally can't get on with leggings, providing too much warmth which is difficult to vent down to the skin). I have been known to unzip the legs as far as they can and tie them in a knot behind me on the walk in/out to create the least fashionable shorts ever.

In reply to Sharp:


That's pretty much what I started to write yesterday; I wasn't sure if the OP wanted general advice, or recommendation of specific items of clothing from specific manufacturers. I think the latter is pretty pointless unless you can specify what sort of thing you're looking for, rather than just 'good clothes'.


A good layering system covers all those, with suitably-chosen layers*.

Base layer
Mid layer fleece
Wind-resistant layer
Waterproof layer
Warmth overlayer

* the trick is in choosing the layers...

Soft shell merges some of those layers, but is therefore less versatile.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:


Conversely, I usually wear a baselayer but no mid layer. Most common arrangement for Scottish Winter is

Top - Merino T-Shirt or Long Sleeve. Arcteryx Atom hoody. Lightweight shell in the bag if it's windy.
Bottom - Merino Leggings if it's cold. Millet WDS Storm Pants.

I'm changing my 'severe' weather outfit this year, bu typically

Top - as above, but Atom goes in the bag. Heavier waterproof jacket.
Bottom - MEC Powerstretch-type leggings, Waterproof overtrousers.

I have a Jottnar Fjorm, but it's massive overkill most of the time. Can't bear to part with it though because it's such a nice piece of kit. A PHD minimus pullover does the same job in less wild conditions.

In reply to planetmarshall:




Bloody hell! I wear more than that in a heated car.........and I'd be hypothermic before getting beyond the car park wearing the kit anybody else has listed.

Cheers, ive read all the posts and gained a little more insight.

Bought brynje baselayers today and a mountain equipment eclipse microfleece to go over the top as a mid layer (thin and comfortable). I've bought a rab polartec softshell to wear as my shell and i'm thinking about buying something like a Patagonia nano puff to wear under the soft shell if more insulation is required, does this make sense?

My legs don't tend to get too hot And sweaty or cold strangely I'm considering just wearing some leggings (merino?) under soft shell trousers that I've bought off eBay from mountain hardwear.

On top of this I'm going to need a belay jacket. From what ive seen I'll need a synthetic for Scottish winter. Any recommendations?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Depends, but that was fairly average for last year. I run quite hot and have good circulation - I've never had hot aches.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

3 layers max, often less.

Walk ins; base thermal, usually fleece or wind/waterproof. Never both.

Gear up; all 3. But fleece and outer will have pit zips, so no over heating, excess sweating.

In not so harsh conditions win/water proof will be a lighter pertex type, not full heavier scale gortex . Fleece might be down graded for a gillete.

If I'm cold in the car park faffing, then its a good sign I won't over heat on the way in.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Patagonia R1 Hoodie
Patagonia Nano Puff half zip synthetic pullover
Any Good Gortex jacket with a good hood
Mountain Equipment Eclipse Salopette
Mountain Equipment Citadel Jacket
Patagonia KnifeRidge Pants
Buff neck gator and a Balaclava
1 pair Mountain Equipment Super Alpine Gloves
1 pair Mountain Equipment Randonee Gauntlet Gloves
Buffalo Mitts Get the biggest size.

In reply to captain paranoia:








For the OP, because it focuses on category rather than brand, this is a very helpful reply. And it's a fair summation of a system which works well for me. in my case this would mean:

Brynje mesh tee (yes, they really are incredible)

ME Eclipse microgrid fleece with integrated hood/balaclava (only the Patagonia R1 comes close)

Arcteryx Squamish windshirt. Superior adjustable cuffs for significant extra comfort (I suffer badly when overheating) make this the pick of the bunch. At a price.

Patagonia Kniferidge softshell Jacket in Polartec Powershield Pro (a compromise between waterproofing and breathability that I'm experimenting with). Alternatives at my disposal include an ME Tupilak Goretex Pro waterproof if it's tipping down and a Montane Alpine Stretch softshell for blue skies.

North Face Makalu belay jacket with 130 fill Primaloft Pro means substantial warmth on the belay

Just a word for the Patagonia Nano Air which has been mentioned once already. This hoodie combines the role of midlayer and windproof in all but the wettest conditions and, with its incredible breathability, is the most versatile garment in my wardrobe. There isn't a month this year when it hasn't been useful as it's fantastic for rock-climbing (short bursts of effort followed by a longer spell of inactivity in exposed locations). For a typical Scottish grade II classic ridge (Aonach Eagach, Forcan Ridge), where you keep moving a higher proportion of the day with only short stops for individual technicalities or photo ops, or for a winter day's walking, there is nothing to beat the comfort this jacket provides. And on such days the Nano Air worn over a tee shirt will suffice. For your stops, worn under a wind or waterproof it is all the belay jacket you need.

I hesitate to recommend it as an outer for winter climbing, though it holds up well for rock, because water penetrates the outer too easily, but on frigid days it could replace both fleece and windproof and then layer under your shell (or even under your windproof and drop the soft/hardshell altogether if the forecast allows you to be so bold)

In reply to BnB:

Could you compare it to a good polartec alpha midlayer?

In reply to neuromancer:


In basic terms the garments are very similar. And I can make a direct comparison because I've got a Rab Strata hoody (yes, I have too much gear, if that's possible).

The Strata isn't nearly as breathable on account of the Pertex outer, nor as comfortable against the skin owing to a poor choice of inner liner on the forearms, which, not wicking nearly as well, causes my skin to prickle. And the Nano Air insulation lofts better for a greater feeling of snugness.

In fact the only respect in which the Strata is superior is that it works better as an outer in wilder conditions on account of the better weather-proofing afforded by the Pertex outer. I wore it several times last winter for proper Scottish conditions and it served me well. But since acquiring the Nano Air I've recognised that it's range of use and comfort is massively wider than the Strata, while layering much better under or over other items.

The Strata is still a great hoody, mind. But not in the same performance league.

In reply to captain paranoia:









This is great advice tbh.
I tend to use a random base layer with a pertex windproof for the walk in, then swap the windproof for a fleece (currently a ME Shroud) and a Paramo style top for the climbing. For longer belays out comes the Rab Generator belay jacket. I've got a cheap decathlon down gilet which gets lobbed in the pack if it's uber cold.
I use paramo kecks on my legs and am usually warm enough without layers underneath.
Paramo is a bit Marmite but I find it breaths like a softshell but is waterproof enough that I don't need to carry a hardshell, saving weight. It's also a good chunk more windproof than a few softshells I've tried.

In reply to BnB:

Mega, thanks.

Have you tried an atom lt?

In reply to neuromancer:



I have. It's closer to the Strata than the Nano Air, but better cut than either with heat-dumping powerstretch under the arms, which is why my wife has one. Nevertheless, she gets a lot hotter than me in the Nano Air under exertion. The Nano Air also has the best pockets, four really usable ones with the insulation outside the hands (unlike the Strata which has it pointlessly (but probably less expensively) behind the pockets.

In reply to BnB & angry pirate:

Thanks. An expanded version of my thoughts about layering can be found here:

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=377801#x5471096

In reply to Liamhutch89:

My variation on everybody else's theme for what it's worth:

I run cold.

I walk in in powerstretch bib tights, a thermal and a light windproof. I either wear soft shell or hard shell over the top on my legs depending on forecast.

For climbing I change out of my walk in thermal and put a dry one on. (I don't use merino as I find once it wets out it stays wet.) I add two powerstretch tops, both with hoods which I pull up under my helmet. Over this goes a non membrane soft shell or a hard shell dependent on conditions. (I don't carry both but make the choice before starting out.)

If it's particularly cold / we're doing a route which will mean a lot of time belaying I'll take a lightish belay jacket, but this will be left behind if it's late in the season / a great, still day / we hope to move reasonably quickly.

A huge difference for my warmth is made by using wrist covers, (I use dry suit neoprene cuffs), which closes any gap between my jacket cuff and gloves. Using the powerstretch hoods rather than hats also cuts out any gap around my neck.

And although it's very last century I'll wear gaiters most of the time.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Slightly off-topic.

What clothing / gear topics are the least well known about by people? i.e. what topics would people want to see a concise guide on?

I've been massively frustrated trying to find out details on various pieces of kit and best ways to use them so have thought about doing a blog on gear, summarising what I know from all the things I've read. Threads like these have so much knowledge and similar questions come around fairly often, I always think that there needs to be a compilation of everything.
There's no real purpose behind it other than me wanting to write some stuff on a topic I enjoy reading about. (I spend far too much of my time geeking on kit...)
Thanks

In reply to Exile:


Yeah! Gaiters rock. Don't be a gaiter-hater: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/gaiter-haters.html I doubt there are many other people who can claim to have produced an old-school hip-hop inspired paean to gaiters!

In reply to Liamhutch89:

You asked BnB about the difference between the Patagonia Nano thingy and Polartec Alpha insulation. I've not used the Nano air stuff, but I did review the first Marmot Alpha insulated top. I wasn't too impressed. http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/marmot-isotherm-hoodypolart... I have traditionally thought a lot of Marmot designs and found they fit me well, but this one isn't a great fit, has some odd design choices on it and I really didn't think the Alpha wrapped in Pertex worked particularly well. I still find a grid, stretch microfleece plus a very light windproof is more versatile and probably cheaper too, particularly if you shop at Decathlon.

In reply to tk421:




Personally I think it is far more likely to be of interest if you can say what you've found out from being out trying gear, rather than what you've read others say. If you're not finding out yourself what does and doesn't work for you, it can be quite hard to sort the wheat from the chaff in the amount of reviews and advice that floats around on the net. Advice is also always rather context dependent. Some people warm up really easily, others don't. Advice that is great for one country or mountain/wilderness area might not make much sense in another. Some brands will fit you well, others don't. And so on.

In reply to TobyA:

Toby, you've seriously got to get your hands on the Nano Air and share your thoughts. It constantly amazes me with its comfort in a wide range range of conditions and applications.

In reply to TobyA:

Absolutely. I'd think about writing what works for me but I only have so much experience and kit to talk about. As an example, "my layering system works out as abc, here's another layering system that people use which is different because of xyz, this is better for those that prefer def" etc
Anyways, just a mini project for me.

In reply to BnB:

Yes, would love to try one out - mainly just because you're such a big proponent of them and are convinced they work much better than Pertex covered Alpha! But I think someone might have already done a UKC review one last winter, and I have plenty enough alternative layers of my own, to make just buying one to try seem a bit decadent.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

I wear a thermal vest on the walk in with or without a pertex shell over the top. Ditch the damp vest and put on something like a R1 hoody or a buffalo top and hood and depending on conditions I pack a montane pile jacket or a paramo. Its like turning on the central heating.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Really complicated replys on this post! For me!
Base layers = Which ever ones I wake up in!
Waterproof Shell layers = the ones that are not wet from the day before!
Belay jacket = the one that smells the least as I'll undoubtedly be calling in at the pub after!
Gloves = All of them!

In reply to pass and peak:


Thank heavens for your post, I was just starting to wonder if people were over complicating things ,or perhaps in danger of being overwhelmed by a surfeit of choice and best-latest-products, what with companies needing to keep making money. Which isn't to say some of the newest products won't be very excellent.

In reply to Liamhutch89:
It might sound old school, but investing in a thick fleecy gilet proved to be a really good move for me, in the Lake District in the awesome snow during the new year of 2010 it added just the amount of core warmth I needed when another full layer would have made me too hot.

I think gilets of whatever material can be overlooked, they can take the edge off being 'just a bit chilly' and take up little space to pack.

Hope to help.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Or more than take the edge off if you have something warm.

In reply to TobyA:

Maybe we'll have a day out again this winter and I'll lend you mine for the excursion. I'm sure I've got enough gear to go without for a day!!

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Keep it cheap because it'll get trashed.
Ice axes, crampons, screws, rock, rope-burn all love your clothes. When you've mastered your techniques, then maybe increase the spends.
For me: 2 pair of socks
Bottom: HH base layer, Ron Hills, waterproof outer (Berghaus I think, with a lot of BlackNasty tape at the bottom).
Upper: HH Baselayer, very thin fleece (Polartec100), then either a Rab Gillet or a Goretex Jacket.
Hats and Gloves - Thin Polarstretch hat, gloves are dependant on activity, day etc etc.
If just a walking day, then the upper becomes a tshirt and a paramo velez (light one).
All of above is Scottish winter.

In reply to BnB:

Absolutely, and definitely we should do a day when the turf is frozen so we can do a proper route, or at least in proper style!

In reply to TobyA:

You're on!!

In reply to BnB:

Out of interest, how do you use your Squamish? Wear it on the walk in over a base layer plus under a shell when climbing?

In reply to aldo56:

On the walk-in , one of:

a) not at all, b)over the mesh tee or c) over mesh tee + Eclipse depending on wind.

En route as an optional extra layer between Eclipse and softshell. Helpful if good conditions make the belay jacket redundant and I want to feel a little bit warmer on belay or if I want extra insulation on the lead in crappy conditions. It layers well between fleece and softshell as fabrics glide better with it in-between.

In reply to BnB:

For years I always used to layer it between base & fleece for same reason, nice & slick, thought it might reduce evaporated heat loss too.

Nowadays with shelled primaloft, etc, has made this application mostly redundant. Still the choice for windy walk in over base.

Stuart

In reply to tk421:

Loads of blogs detail outdoor gear stuff. I have one and did winter layering systems last year (https://gearandmountains.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/scottish-winter-layering-... and I've also done a load of posts on the individual layers in the clothing system.

For me it's basically:

Thin baselayer
Hooded fleece
Stretch membrane softshell or hardshell
Belay jacket

Legs are thermals with either Windstopper trousers or waterproof salopettes on top.

If it's really windy I'll bring a windshirt or 'true softshell' along too. If it's really wet but warm I'll bring two baselayers and change at the CIC or similar.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mallory+clothing&espv=2&biw=1440&...

In reply to Mr Fuller:
Personally I find the key is not to sweat when climbing as that leads to cold belays. For that reason I avoid all membraned soft shells and pertex style materials when climbing. I love stretchy soft shells though. Also if I do sweat this lets me dry out better on belay. For belaying I use a pertex and primaloft belay jacket. The conditions I do find hard are very windy and cold as it can penetrate my legs on belay. I'm considering wearing a second thin soft shell layer under my trousers for this in the future. I rarely wear gaiters or water proofs now and often don't carry them. Base layers I prefer man made fibres as they don't damp out as easily and dry faster.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

There's been little discussion of leg wear relative to the obsession with upper layers. I find this choice a little challenging because, while man-made leggings under softshells trousers often make for the most comfortable wear on the route and belay, the combination is massive overkill for any decent length walk in and out. Consequently I tend to wear just the softshells pants, the very wonderful Montane Sabretooth trous, for the walk in/out and throw some Rab Neoshell pants over the top for the climb. The combination is bombproof (if not crampon-proof) in all conditions but I wish sometimes the Sabretooth pants, breathable though they are, could vent from hip to shin and let me drop the hardshell trous.

In reply to BnB:

Yeah personally I wouldn't want the membrane, it encourages sweat build up on the more trudge based snow pitches which would make me cold on belay. This is also the issue with venting you are seeing on the walkn imo.

That said I'd also like a really light pair of troos sometimes for the walkin anway but ideally something that can keep the snow out of my boots, something designed for warm summer alpine would be ideal. This would be great for windy days as I'd then chuck my winter soft shell trousers over the top once I start climbing.....

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Ron Hills and a pair of gaiters?

The Neoshell breathes much better than you would think, while providing vents the full length of the leg so I don't find overheating an issue. It's the fact that it is more prone to crampon snags and, though stretchy, less flexible than softshells. The waterproofing, sat in a bucket seat or pressed against the ice, is also often very welcome.

In reply to BnB:
I hear what you are saying but I don't think you'd be overheating so much on the walk in with non membrane softshells.

I generally don't wear gaiters now as I find them sweaty and something I don't want to be carrying when my soft shell trousers have gaiters built in. Maybe the issue I'm getting is that my trousers (simond alpinism pants) are slightly too air permeable, my rab exodus softshell jacket is certainly more ait tight but that does come at a slight expense of being less breathable I find. After all that is the trade off with these materials. I find the tighter the weave on a soft shell the less breathable but more windproof. The scale for me is something like this

(least windproof most breathable)
Loose weave stretchy softshell
Dense weave stretchy softshell
Old style pertex
Modern micro pertex
softshells with membranes (although some of these have actual holes in so may behave more like a softshell)
water proofs
(most windproof least breathable)

In some cases soft shells with membranes are not much more breathable than a waterproof IMO.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I'm not overheating on the walk-in. I find the Sabretooth pants (Powershield) worn without thermal leggings incredibly comfortable, warm, breathable, and everything I look for in a softshell trouser. The problem is getting the thermal leggings on at gear up time without taking the trousers off!!

In reply to BnB:

Primaloft shorts for the belays?

http://www.dynafit.com/en/radical-primaloft-overshorts.html

The skirt version might be easier on and off?

http://www.dynafit.com/en/radical-primaloft-skirt-women.html

In reply to BnB:
Ok I see why you want the full length zips now.....

However with non membrane softshell troos you may well be able to walk in wearing your thermal leggings and some soft shell trousers without over heating. For most days I find this combo fine, only issue is when its really windy and I'm likely to be on belay stances for a long time.

In reply to galpinos:



And more dashing I dare venture

In reply to BnB:

For the man who has everything..... (Well, every item of outdoor clothing currently on the market....)

In reply to BnB:


Walk in wearing thermals and pertex trousers? Whip off the pertex and on with the softshell. Or leave them on as a gliss interlayer.

In reply to galpinos:

I'm sure Klattermusen do a waterproof 'kilt'...

In reply to captain paranoia:




Interesting thought. Certainly 3 layers would be overkill in many circumstances but the real issue is getting the softshells pants on without taking boots off. If that's impossible, you might as well have worn the softshells only, whipped them and boots briefly off to don the thermals and clamber back into the pants and boots without suffering exposure, or perhaps more serious, getting wet feet. Commando would not be a good look!!

In reply to BnB:

What about walking in in powerstretch leggings with gaiters?

In reply to BnB:

For winter (walking/scrambling) Paramo Aspira trousers do it for me. Easily vented via the zips and in that cold winter we had (2009-10 was it?) even wore them with factor 1 thermals underneath. Lovely.

In reply to Siward:
This must be some kind of a record. 70 posts in and the first use of the P-word (in a recommendation, it has been grudgingly acknowledged in a couple of posts I recall).

Or have I missed a whole sub-thread on the virtues of carrying an extra litre of water absorbed evenly throughout your clothing system?

In reply to BnB:

Says the man heading out in a string vest vest and primaloft skirt........

I've never got the heavy, baggy, sack of spuds appeal of Paramo. I'd assumed that it was a "rambler's choice" type garment but plenty of Scottish MICs seem to swear by it and they're out everyday so there must be something to it.

In reply to BnB:

If you're not surrounded by moisture you're not in Scotland!

In reply to galpinos:

I'm on my second paramo jacket the new ones look smarter and fit very differently. probably had 200 days out of the last one still works bit looks a bit tatty.

Im sweaty so they perform much better for me than goretex for Scottish winter.

For what it's worth I wore thermal and paramo for walk in if miserable. added a polartec 100 layer when I stopped and that would work all day. back up belay jacket in case I was standing around.

goretex trousers, power stretch tights work well though durability could be better though I am wearing them everyday.

In reply to alasdair19:

Which jacket do you use? Even the new ones have a long way to go style wise compared to a new Pattagucci number......

In reply to BnB:

I did mention my paramo top and troons quite a while back
Though, to be fair, my jacket is a Furtech Claw nowadays as my older Paramo was a bit of a generous fit.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I know what you mean regarding membrane softshells and in theory they are certainly a dead end. However, I really like Windstopper trousers as my legs very rarely overheat and unless it's pouring with rain it's a super-durable set-and-forget option that will cope with anything. On the top half I go for membrane softshell over stretch-woven for the extra water resistance, but if it's really wet you might as well go for the waterproof, so it's maybe a luxury item. I did a sliding scale of comfort versus protection on my blog a while ago too, and came to very similar conclusions to yourself: https://gearandmountains.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/the-protectioncomfort-fab...

In reply to Mr Fuller:

The Table...

I think some base layers can be more weather resistant than fleece; e.g. old skool CoolMax, or Dri-Flo.

No mainstream stretch wovens...? Schoeller Dynamic and Dryskin are surely the model fabrics here?

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I'd almost convinced myself they are the same fabrics... If they're not from the same mill, then someone's done a good copying job...

In reply to Mr Fuller:

So... for the very worst conditions you recommend bondage gear? Presumably over a brynje fishnet baselayer (and talc)

In reply to captain paranoia:
they seem different, I remember you asking about this before and they didn't seem the same when I checked. I'll have another look, it could just be that legs tend to stretch the fabric more making the weave more open.

In reply to Mr Fuller:

Well I nearly agree with your diagram. I definitely think stretchy soft shell tends to breathe more than pertex on the whole.

It is possible I guess some non membrane non stretchy softshell (ie pertex) is more breathable than stretchy soft shell, but that's not been my experience. I find I get sweat build up easily wearing pertex style fabric on the inside on the fabric (through layers of clothing). I guess its not that more breathable than event. I don't really get this wearing stretchy soft shell unless I'm actually sweating on to the fabric.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It's hard to compare the two (Pertex vs stretchy softshell) when the Pertex windshirt weighs 180g and offers zero insulation while the stretchy softshell weighs 450g and has a warmth-trapping weave.

My Montane Alpine Stretch non-membrane shell ought to be more comfortable than my Arcteryx Squamish if breathability were the only factor in play. But the complete opposite applies because other factors are not equivalent.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

As pretty evident, there is no correct answer...

What works with me, is the following (scottish and scandinavian winter)

light/medium weight longsleeve (wool or syntetic, depens on weather or not I get home in the evening... for camping I use wool). Then a lightweight syntetic down pullover/jacket (or vest), preferably one that also blocks wind. On top a pretty weather resistant softshell (or hydrid), this year I'm trying Patagucci Kniveblade jacket, previously had the Mixed Guide (or beat up Riisto'Ryx Gamma MX).

For bottoms, I wear clamdigger lenght fleece or wool (~200 weight or so) and then Mixed Guide Pants (or bargain Tierra Gore's).

Then I have a belay jacket... which depends on what I'm climbing. For craggin' (go home in the evening) it's a big down jacket. For multipitch, I have two thinner syntetic ones (pullover and jacket), again might pick different one for different trips.

This rig is too much for summer/early winter alps though, and not enough for winter...

In reply to BnB:

Ok lets put it this way I'm more comfortable doing anything from moderate cardio upwards, in stretchy soft shells than I am in pertex, never mind soft shell with a membrane. I've owned a few of each now so I know what works for me. I find it easier to regulate my warmth and I end up less sweaty. That said on a warm day I wouldn't want to wear either!

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Did I? <chuckles>

I think I even went as far as taking the Simond trousers down to Cotswold, armed with a loupe, and compared the two fabrics. Not that I'm obsessive or anything, of course...

In reply to Liamhutch89:
I saw Dave Mac up there last year and he was wearing Animal Skin boots, A kilt, A Yak Skin/Wool cagoule thingy, animal leg bone axes and crampons made from the teeth of dead mythological creatures.

So as you can see it's down to personal preference

But back in the reality of us mere mortal climbers a good system I use in the Alps & Scotland is:

My Top half:
Base-layer top - Any kind whether cheap or branded should be fine, I use a Rab Merino Wool base-layer
Short-sleeve T shirt
Simple light jumper
Micro-fleece - I have a cheap-ish light Berghaus half-zip job
Hard Shell - Gore-Tex or Event

For legs:
Long-johns - Any kind should do the job
Outdoor walking/hiking trousers
Gaiters

Simple ankle length cotton socks
Think woolly walking/hiking socks

Thin basic liner glove
Thick waterproof climbing glove (Currently use BD Punishers)

Cheap beanie hat

In my backpack I carry:
Waterproof trousers - Full zip & breathable
Down jacket
Thick Gloves or Mitts (I have a pair of the Rab Guides as backup/warm gloves)

In reply to Liamhutch89:

For climbing in, most of last season consisted of;

Top half;

Cheapo Decathlon baselayer
Rab Boreas hoodie
North fact Softshell Gilet
ME Orbital (when weather was reasonable)
Rab Pertex Waterproof when it was a bit manky or super windy
Montane Flux for belays and seconding when cold

Bottom Half;

Synthetic leggings
Patagonia Alpine Guides (possibly the best pair of trousers I've ever owned, just wish they still made them and fixed the bloody belt)
ME Salopettes for mank weather

Hands and head;

ME Guide Gloves for climbing and Mittens for belaying and seconding in, couple of pairs are useful. I go with the rule of never climbing in wet gloves if my hands are cold and have never had hot aches since making said rule.

Also worthwhile talking about footwear and sock combo, I wear Scarpa Phantom guide and heavy weight merino socks and my feet still get cold at belays. Don't know how folks get away with wearing boots like Trango Extreme and Scarpa Rebel Ultra etc?

Anyone able to comment on the durability and breath-ability of the Rab Neo Guide jacket and trouser combo? About to sink some serious cash into it as an alternative to my current set up but don't want to find out its not up to the job afterwards!

Just had a read through this post and wondering how big a bag you guys all have for the amount of layers which are being carried?!

In reply to Nath93:
Top
Inner layer: either a Capilene crew neck, some Macpac Merino/polyester zip neck, or a Patagonia Capilene hoody - all long sleeved.
Outer layers: Rab Strata hooded jacket and a non-membrane softshell. Worn individually or together, work fine whichever order they're put on it.
Extra layers: Waterproof jacket and belay jacket.

Bottom
Inner: either thin (Capilene) or thick (powerstretch) leggings.
Outer: non-membrane softshell trousers.
Extra layer: waterproof trousers.

Feet
Merino expedition socks
Boots
Gaiters

Hands
Various gloves (3 softshell pairs and 1 waterproof pair) with Buffalo mittens as back up.

Head
Fleece neck gaiter
Fleece hat

If the weather is bad to start I'll sometimes ditch the non-membrane top and bottom softshell layers and just wear waterproofs all day over leggings. Don't wear fleeces in the winter anymore. Might add a thin gilet (Rab Vapour Rise thing or similar) with a windproof front or outer to wear over the base layers this winter.

In reply to Nath93:


By wearing light wicking socks as not to get too moist/wet. Wet feet = cold feet.

In reply to HeMa:

And not having boots that are too tight so I can wiggle my toes and keep the blood flowing.

In reply to JayPee630:

Wool/ foil insoles under the superfeet and thinner socks

In reply to Liamhutch89:
Some decent pointers on this thread. But the issue is seldom as easy as just which brand or material is the best.

You need to start thinking about why you£re cold. I also sweat very easily and unless its really windy or the approach is short/easy I usually change baselayers after the approach is over. Don the wet one in a plastic bag and put it in the rucksack. That way you can still work hard on the approach, doesnt matter as much if you get sweaty. If its not windy I might do the approach in baselayer only (important with decent hat and gloves), if its windy I use a windshirt. Sometimes I even do the approach in another set of gloves (worn-out pair which I use for abseiling)
If possible pace yourself on the easy parts of the climb so you dont overheat and sweat to much and more importantly dont stand still when belaying for long periods!

Point is, you want to minimize wet layers when you start the actual climbing, be it gloves, hat, socks or baselayers. You should experiment with extra buffs, wrist-warmers, heat pads, synthetic socks. Usually I£ve got 1-2 buffs, no hat, 2-3 pair of gloves, wrist-warmers. Adaptation is the key! On the actual climb its important to keep your hands dry as long as possible, change gloves if wet and dry slightly wet ones inside jacket. Soaked ones stay in the rucksack.

Fit is also important. But quite a personal choice. I hate flappy clothing and even at 15 stone, 6£2 I find some brands Large being way to generous. Arc, Patagonia will only please me if they are in their athletic fit or whatever they call it. Most Nordic brands are way better sized, especially over the chest where they are smaller than their american counterparts. I find ME usually fits me good as well. RAB being a bit hit and miss, sometimes huge over the chest. I do agree that Brynje-like baselayers are good for us sweaty pigs, Acclima is one brand I use in L, they do both synthetic and wool. Houdinis synthetic baselayers are also very good, their Airborn Zip with thumb-loops and high zipped collar is my favourite. Houdini are somewhat pricey but both looks and fits good and last forever so well worth it.

Finally winter!

In reply to DanielJ:

I agree. Changing baselayers after the walk in is the best thing you can do.

In reply to DanielJ:

Ive used the Acclima Coolnet, and Woolnet, for a couple of winters. In my opinion its overrated, as the 'fabric' can still stay damp, especially after a long uphill slog. Give me gridded fleece base layer next to skin (Powerdry) any day, amazingly comfy, very fast drying, and rapid wicking, for winter.

In reply to Root1:


Personally I think this is bonkers, if you sweat that much on the walk in - you're wearing to much.

In reply to iksander:

I'd agree with you! What can be worse than stripping down to bare skin at the base of a North Face route on the Ben, in January, in -5 with a wind chill of -20 and snowing! You don't find people doing this in the Alps in winter. But then again, we are hardy Brits who climb what ever the weather.

Start bold, start cold and alter your pace during the walk in to limit over heating.

In reply to Liamhutch89: Would disagree - I've started changing baselayers at the base of snow/top of a route/wherever this year as the monster hikes have had me sweating buckets and it's easier than trying to dry out en route

Very often the baselayer has been the only thing I've been wearing for the walk in

In reply to wbo:

You are right. The only thing I am wearing is my baselayer on the walk in, and if you dont get a move on you will still be on route in the dark.
Changing a top isnt that bad even in bad weather you just have to be quick. Dont knock it till you have tried it, a dry base layer is luxury.

In reply to Root1:

And wearing a mesh baselayer means it doesn't even get wet on the walk-in. Why not splash £20 and never be damp again?

In reply to BnB:
Because I'd have to wear something over the mesh layer - it's not warm enough to go on that alone.

Last weekend I did/tried a hill that started at sea level at 10C, snow started at round 700m elevation, and the route went to 1200m. Easiest thing was to wear a single thermal as long as possible, but when it was time to wrap up at circa 1000 that went off and a new one on. Toasty!

In reply to wbo:

I wear mine under a windshirt on the walk-in. Works a treat.

In reply to iksander:


By the sounds of it you're just one of those lucky non-sweaty people! I normally get drenched walking up steep ground even when its cold and windy. Occasionally I take a spare baselayer; changing takes seconds, a Lifa top weighs only about the same as a couple of quickdraws and the weight is well worth for warmth putting on a nice dry one!

In reply to dek:

Woolnet isnt my cup of tea. For me its to warm and it stays wet. Coolnet does stay little bit damp and can feel somewhat cold but I usually only use it when its cold and windy so I rarely make it damp.I use it as a first layer just to create and trap some warm air beneath a very thin second layer ( eg thin synthetic baselayer)

The gridded fleece baselayers are usually way to warm and thick for me. However I´m just about to collect a ME Eclipse hooded zip tee after some advice on a thread on here somewhere. And a quick google on Polartec Power Dry gave away that Patagonia just(?) started to use it on their Capilene range. They come thin in some models so that might also be worth a try.

For OP (and nerds like myself) http://iceclimbingjapan.com/ might be of interest. Seems like its a mountainguide whos climbing a lot and is sponsored by Polartec so maybe best to take info with slight skepticism. He does however try out new materials and some cool stuff so well worth the read. (If you overlook the font and colours...)

In reply to DanielJ:


That's ice.solo! Shame he doesn't post here on UKC anymore as he always spoke a lot of sense on gear and knows what he is talking about.

In reply to DanielJ: Typo on my post above, 16th nov. Dont use the Airborn zip, thats the superthin silklike thingy which probably tears easily.. Its the Alpha Zip I use, partly made from recycled Polyester if you care about those things. Houdini actually has a pretty sound environmental policy, similar to Patagonias.

In reply to Liamhutch89:

Has anyone tried the strata flex jacket?

Seems like an Atom LT but with more breathable insulation, right?

In reply to neuromancer:

I think it looks really good but I'd want to check that they've got the lining right on the outside of the forearm. In the standard strata the lining is a shiny gliss layer that doesn't wick very well relative to the mesh on the inner arm. It glides well over a long sleeved tee but in direct contact with the skin results in damp, prickly arms. I'd steer clear if they haven't corrected this element, unless you mean to wear it as an outer over layers. It looks to me ideal as midlayer between a short sleeved tee and a lightweight shell.