Ben Nevis visitors urged not to build mini cairns

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 Mikek 30 Oct 2015
So what about this: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/30/ben-nevis-visitors-urged-not...
I think this is a great start and hope the message gets through to all the cairn builders in the lakes as well!
Mike
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 Dave the Rave 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Mikek:
Can't be arsed reading the article. I regularly build cairns. Small ones, that look out of shape with the landscape. I walk alone and it helps me to nav off the hill. Walking alone can be pretty scary if the weather is inclement, and I think that it shows ingenuity if you find your way off and destroy the cairn as you pass?
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 Dave the Rave 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:
Come on. Spit it out. What's to dislike?
It's hard to argue with people that just press the red flag.

T feck with you . I will build my nav cairns and knock them down as I return. If you follow them, they will lead you to safety. Moo haha moo haha. X
Post edited at 20:22
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 digby 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Mikek:

Officials? Are they going to meet walkers at the bottom and urge them?

People have been building cairns on main paths for donkey's years. It's not going to change.
On iconic mountains like Ben Nevis folk are going to build little memorial cairns. It's not going to change.
In fact the summit is quite surreal with its hundreds of minicairns. I quite like it!
It's a 'problem' that doesn't affect many hills. It's rather a spurious story.
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 Simon Caldwell 30 Oct 2015
In reply to digby:

> It's a 'problem' that doesn't affect many hills

A short visit to the Lake District or Snowdonia should put you right on that one!
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 Simon Caldwell 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

Have you ever thought of investing in a map?
2
> People have been building cairns on main paths for donkey's years. It's not going to change.

> It's a 'problem' that doesn't affect many hills. It's rather a spurious story.

It affects lots of Snowdonia. The Glyderau and Cader Idris in particilar are getting ridiculous with cairns every few metres and worsening erosion all around where the stones have been lifted.

The problem is that many people think they are doing a good thing by adding stones to the cairns / starting new ones.

Anything to raise awareness that this is not the case and that the National Park Authorities are having to remove them is good, but unlikely to change things quickly.


 Brass Nipples 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Mikek:

No national park officials do not need to remove them. What a loads nutscape.

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 Dave the Rave 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> Have you ever thought of investing in a map?

Mmm.
Maybe you misinterpret.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, kind as I am
Scenario. You wander up an unfrequented mountain( not Ben Nevis), in misty weather, and place several rocks on areas that you will notice on the way down to confirm your route. On passing you dismantle them. What's wrong with that?
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 Siward 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

Nothing!

It's leaving them, randomly, all over the place, which folk then add to- don't want that.

Fortunately (Ben excluded, but who wants to go there?) as many get rid of unnecessary cairns as erect them, so all's well...
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 Dave the Rave 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Siward:
> Nothing!

> It's leaving them, randomly, all over the place, which folk then add to- don't want that.
I agree
> Fortunately (Ben excluded, but who wants to go there?) as many get rid of unnecessary cairns as erect them, so all's well...
I don't understand Mr Caldwells view above that you must rely on a map.
I always take a map, but sometimes it is far easier than wasting time pratting about with a map and compass, to place a few stones that only yourself will recognise to confirm a route down.
Post edited at 22:45
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 Dave the Rave 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Once upon a time, prior to map and compass, people will have made their way to the top of a hill and navigated their way down using a pile of stones.

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 jimjimjim 30 Oct 2015
In reply to Mikek:

We should destroy as many cairns as possible then. I will be kicking them over like one'o from now on. unless they're massive and I can't be arsed.
 Brass Nipples 30 Oct 2015
In reply to jimjimjim:

Maybe destroy the maps and paths instead

In reply to Dave the Rave:

> Scenario. You wander up an unfrequented mountain( not Ben Nevis), in misty weather, and place several rocks on areas that you will notice on the way down to confirm your route. On passing you dismantle them. What's wrong with that?

What if a cairn hater removes all trace of your cairn while you are on the way to the summit and you walk past the correct path off the mountain because their is no cairn and wander about for days until finally collapsing and being eaten by wolves.....

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 Dave the Rave 31 Oct 2015
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Yeah. I don't do it on popular routes as there's little point.
What I do if walking on remote routes with faint paths is place a stone on a rock that other people wouldn't notice. Then I take my bearing from the summit and pass the stones on the way down, removing them as I go. It's a psychological back up plan that works for me and bothers no one.

Don't get me started on rewinding wolves. What if a tired, lost walker meets a pack of hungry wolves . I doubt they would just want a sarnie!
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 solomonkey 31 Oct 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Maps are over rated , and can blow away , a system of rock's is far superior
I was once told not to head in to mountains to attack its highest snow capped peak at 7,500 ft in OZ , apparently loads of (professionals ) had been up there with said maps and GPS's and got lost/epic/rescue e,c,t ,,,, anyway I had a road atlas in the hire car , nothing else
 nutme 31 Oct 2015
In reply to digby:

They do meet people at the bottom. Few times I have seen a person at the start of tourist track to Ben who was making sure only prepared people go up. Not sure of his status and if he actually had a power to restrict access to somebody.

I have seen same practice in Alps few times. But then it was a members of gendarmes who looked really official and serious.
 Trangia 31 Oct 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

How right you are. Cairns are essential for folk who can't read maps or use a compass. How on earth would these people conquer our hills and fells if cairns were banned?

In fact I'd go further and say that not only do we need more cairns, but also more signposting. Most British mountains are appallingly sign posted, it's no wonder that people get lost putting an added strain on mountain rescue facilities.

I'm against the suggestion of red marker paint on rocks because you can't see these when covered by snow. Sign posts at least 2m high are a better solution and it's time someone developed an app for calling up a helicopter when you need one to give you a lift down late in the day when there is an increased risk of missing your supper brought about as a result of this poor way marking.

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 Dr.S at work 31 Oct 2015
In reply to Trangia:

Painting arrows etc on rocks is an excellent idea - Its important not to use paint that can wash away in the rain, I understand this error has been made in snowdonia recently, which is a great shame.
 Goucho 31 Oct 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> Scenario. You wander up an unfrequented mountain( not Ben Nevis), in misty weather, and place several rocks on areas that you will notice on the way down to confirm your route. On passing you dismantle them. What's wrong with that?

If you can spot a small pile of stones in heavy mist from any further than 10 yards away, you must be half bat and using sonar.

 Dave the Rave 31 Oct 2015
In reply to Goucho:
> If you can spot a small pile of stones in heavy mist from any further than 10 yards away, you must be half bat and using sonar.

It's about where you site them. A fist sized piece of quartzite on a boulder is quite spottable from a distance.
I use them to leapfrog from one leg to another. It's just my frogs are slightly altered by man.
Post edited at 10:28
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 ChrisJD 31 Oct 2015
In reply to Mikek:

So are Macro-Cairns, Mega-Cairns and Uber-Cairns OK?
llechwedd 31 Oct 2015
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> What if a cairn hater removes all trace of your cairn while you are on the way to the summit and you walk past the correct path off the mountain because their is no cairn and wander about for days until finally collapsing and being eaten by wolves.....

stuck in a hole??
youtube.com/watch?v=q_a1wxqloEs&
 digby 31 Oct 2015
In reply to nutme:

> They do meet people at the bottom. Few times I have seen a person at the start of tourist track to Ben who was making sure only prepared people go up. Not sure of his status and if he actually had a power to restrict access to somebody.

> I have seen same practice in Alps few times. But then it was a members of gendarmes who looked really official and serious.

If they've got guns I'd probably pay attention. But in Scotland, they probably wouldn't. Though advising people on the tourist path is not a bad idea.
 solomonkey 01 Nov 2015
In reply to jimjimjim:
Whenever I find one that's been kicked over I'll re build it , sorted
Post edited at 06:55
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 Tom Valentine 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Mikek:

If we're going down the road of removing cairns because they're obtrusive we need to be fair about it and include them all.
A good start would be Nine Standards Rigg. Of course, we'd then have to rename the place.
 Jamie B 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Mikek:
The article feels a bit confused and rambling, grouping together all of the following:

1. Impromptu "navigation" cairns, often seen at key points on wilder hills but not to my knowledge on the Ben Nevis track where the navigation is linear and already waymarked.
2. "Burial" cairns, used as hiding-holes for everything from poo to rubbish to a piano that some charity bod couldn't be fecked taking off the hill. There was a major clear-up of these a few years ago when the new cairns were built on the plateau, have they started to reappear?
3. "Cluster" cairns at lay-bys and viewpoints like this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Tv32Vf-XMDA/UAsUipHBHtI/AAAAAAAAAys/i28JUVOdN7o/s...
I've never really understood how these initiate, but once they've started to amass every second tourist seems to build another one. I think they look naff, but others may see some aesthetic worth in them.

All very different issues and discussions I would have thought?

I certainly can't agree with the following:

Large navigational cairns are already in place on many Scottish mountains, built especially to stick above the snow and guide walkers along the right path to the summit.

No they're not. Only on Ben Nevis has a land manager thought it appropriate to build a (supposedly) snow-proof "handrail" across high ground, and it's a very moot point as to whether this has helped keep walkers safe or encouraged them into an area which can be lethal under snow-cover.

The article is far from clear about what sort of cairns the JMT is opposing, but if they are discouraging their use as navigational waypoints they should possibly also reconsider the wisdom of their own cairns?
Post edited at 09:59
 digby 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> A short visit to the Lake District or Snowdonia should put you right on that one!

Well I don't know about Wales but I've run and walked extensively in the Lakes and I really can't recall many cairns apart from on the summits. It's maybe the honeypot iconic mountains that attract them.
 Simon Caldwell 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

I think the main reason your temporary cairn building puzzles me is that I always try to avoid descending a hill the same way I went up, preferring to construct a circular route. I thought everyone else did the same, obviously not! But if I did want to retrace my footsteps, I'd expect to recognise where I was without relying on a cairn.
 Dave the Rave 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Fair enough.
I tend to do it on poorly pathed routes where for instance I would ascend to a bealach and then have the choice of 2 munros or corbetts to bag, so there is sometimes no choice of doing a round.
An example this year was Mayar and Driesh. The terrain is confusing in the mist at the bealach but Driesh is helped by fence posts and a good path.
The other is mainly tundra type terrian, and I was unable to find a path. I'm pretty confident with my nav, but I placed small cairns of pebbles on rocks where they couldn't have got naturally. With my bearing, these helped to confirm the route. I don't use gps and it helps me.
Or pacifies me? Think it's the latter
Post edited at 18:37
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 Robert Durran 01 Nov 2015

> I'm pretty confident with my nav.

No you're not.

 Dave the Rave 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:
> No you're not.

Why? I'm sat here in my shed. I'm not lost?
To me it's the same as you telling me as a proficient mountaineer that you're confident in all of your gear placements, but then putting in a security one.
Post edited at 21:06
 Robert Durran 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:
> it's the same as you telling me as a proficient mountaineer that you're confident in all of your gear placements, but then putting in a security one.

No it's not. Nobody is ever confident in all their gear placements (unless they are deluded). Any competent navigator would be confident of reversing to the Mayar/Dreish bealach by compass.
Post edited at 21:18
 Dave the Rave 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> No it's not. Nobody is ever confident in all their gear placements (unless they are deluded). Any competent navigator would be confident of reversing to the Mayar/Dreish bealach by compass.

That's your opinion. What if I was using the compass in areas that affect it?
Yep. I managed to nav it and pick up all the stones. Good navigation that.
3
abseil 01 Nov 2015
In reply to Mikek:

> I ... hope the message gets through to all the cairn builders...

But the whole of Snowdon itself is a massive cairn left by aliens - I thought everyone knew that?
 summo 02 Nov 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> Yep. I managed to nav it and pick up all the stones. Good navigation that.

In which case you are needlessly moving some little critters house roof, for the sake of some odd game.
Graeme G 02 Nov 2015
In reply to solomonkey:

> Whenever I find one that's been kicked over I'll re build it , sorted

Really? So whenever you see a random collection of rocks on a hill you'll build a cairn? Good luck with that.
 Simon Caldwell 02 Nov 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> An example this year was Mayar and Driesh

Ascend via Corrie Fee, descend via N ridge of Driesh - nice short circular walk
 SenzuBean 02 Nov 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

Regarding your cairn building:
It's interesting because in New Zealand, temporary cairn building is not frowned upon - but encouraged. In the 'Bushcraft' manual (equivalent to a UK hill-walking manual) - it says "If you plan to return by the same route, build cairns at crucial points such as the tops and bottoms of spurs. Remove them when you return."

The maps in the UK are much better (NZ only has 1:50k, which are not quite as accurate as OS 1:50k), the tracks are much more visible in the UK (through erosion or track building), the vast majority of the land is open (i.e. can pretty much always see everything, there's not often forest obscuring views of tracks), the mountains are far less remote (you are almost never more than a day's walk away from civilization) - so for these reasons I think it's inappropriate to build temporary cairns in the UK.
 pass and peak 02 Nov 2015
In reply to Mikek:
This is why you don't build mini cairns all over the place. In a different article I read at the time Think it contained part of the coroners report said they initially followed cairns along this path which then petered out. Note the Park Authority is now duty bound to remove these false Cairns/paths after the report stated then as one of the reason the accident happened!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-28569537
Post edited at 12:59
 fmck 02 Nov 2015
In reply to Mikek:

We could remove the offending piles of stone and replace them with a painted white concrete block. Everyone loves em trig thingies.
 Dave the Rave 02 Nov 2015
In reply to summo:

> In which case you are needlessly moving some little critters house roof, for the sake of some odd game.

. Funnily enough, i do check and put them back where I found them. Wouldn't want a homeless mouse .
1
 Dave the Rave 02 Nov 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> Ascend via Corrie Fee, descend via N ridge of Driesh - nice short circular walk

Yes. Looked at that but the weather was so crap that I wanted to be up high for as short as possible
 Robert Durran 03 Nov 2015
In reply to Dave the Rave:

> That's your opinion. What if I was using the compass in areas that affect it?

But you weren't. To refer back to your gear placement analogy, on a scale from dodgy RP 0 to bomber Hex 9, you were doing the navigational equivalent of backing up a solid Hex 8 with a bolt.


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