Expensive race in Kendal

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 Phil1919 01 Oct 2015

Seems that the Scout Scar race at the Kendal film festival is £15 to enter in advance, and £20 on the day. Shame as they won't get many local runners at that price. I guess its a money making venture.
Post edited at 07:14
 DaveHK 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

Is it a club run race? If so that's over the odds.
 Bob 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DaveHK:

It's a "Trail" race run by Open Adventure. From their website: "Open Adventure was set up by James Thurlow in 2004 in reaction to the lack Adventure Racing in the North of England." (sic)

It's not in the ethos of fell running to my mind.
 MG 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

Orange paint doesn't come cheap.
 richprideaux 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

It looks about right for a race with proper safety measures and an experienced organiser?
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to richprideaux:

Its a commercial operation which makes it expensive I guess. Helm Hill lay on a winter league of races which cost £3 to enter. All volunteers like in the old days. If we are happy with privatisation I suppose I would just say that economics means there is a point where the organiser will make less money if the price is to high as there won't be many locals entering for that price. It was £10/15 last year, which for such a short with not an awful lot of complexity seemed expensive.
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:

Thanks for info.
 Neil Williams 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

Is "privatisation" the right term? There is nothing to stop traditional volunteer-organised races taking place, and runners will choose the type they prefer.

That's quite different from privatising (say) the NHS, which would leave no non-profit option.
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Neil Williams:

You are probably right, but I know what I meant!
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Neil Williams:

I had targeted the race for a bit of motivation, but I will find something else.
 Simon Caldwell 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:
If it's run by Open Adventure it'll be well organised. The price is presumably because they are a commercial operation and have to make some money to live off! It's not the sort of thing I'd enter, but if it means they stay in business so can continue organising their adventure racing events then it's fine by me.

As commercial events go, their prices are at the bottom end. For the upper end check out Rat Race and the Bear who shall not be named.
Post edited at 09:42
 The New NickB 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

Commercially run races are always going to seem expensive compared to the cheaper club races, especially if you are used to fell race prices. Most of the commercial operators probably aren't making huge profits, although a few of them do seem to be taking the piss, especially for "obstacle races".

My club organises 5 races a years, I think the total entry fee for all the races combined would be £23 or £29 unattached.
rob sykes 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

what do you get for your entry?

by way of comparison i've signed up for the rivington trail half marathon this saturday. paid £20 and (assuming i finish) i have been told i'm getting a medal, t-shirt, goody bag. organisers have to pay for these items and others - the school where it begins and ends, marshalls, first aid providers plus make some profit.

i'm not a regular racer so i don't have much experience of races but i don't think it seems too bad?
 wbo 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919: No, it's not too bad, and it only gets pricey if you do a lot of races. If you want to do a lot of races you'll normally end up entering a club and doing things like league cross country.

Also, if you're 20, 30 races a year you don't really want a new race tshirt every time.

Surely there must be a ton of races at this time of year. COuple of weeks and it will be the start of cross country

OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to rob sykes:

No consumer goods in the way of goody bags which suits me fine. They construct a crossing point stile to get you onto the fell and save the wall being demolished, otherwise standard stuff like results on internet, some stuff at the start like funnels etc and a well organised race. As others have intimated, I'm comparing it to fell races which historically charge very low prices.
 Bob 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

I've never participated in an Open Adventure event nor heard any comments, positive or negative, about them. Their site mentions that they often do the underlying organisation for branded events so might have done one of those.

My comment about "the ethos" is as much to do with the selling of such events as "adventure". Just where is the adventure in following a fully marked route? A better term would be "packaged activity", there's about as much adventure as a Park Run., but of course that isn't sellable. Adding the infrastructure for such events isn't without its problems either - http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=625639 which links to http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/flagging-and-paint-left-on-the-fell... too often when money is involved then the very essence of the experience gets lost, such behaviour by the organisers also makes it harder for others to justify events to landowners.

One aspect used to "sell" these events is that traditional fell races often require navigational knowledge and that is putting people off trying them. Id argue that navigation is a core competency of anyone heading in to the hills so why encourage the incompetent? As an aside, I'm membership secretary of the Bob Graham Club and there have been instances of (unknown) parties placing luminous marker posts along certain sections of the route so it's not restricted to commercial events.

In an increasingly commercial world where everything has its price, it's becoming ever harder for amateur (in the true sense of the word) events to take place. When landowners see event organisers charge significant amounts of money for participation then they start to ask why some of that isn't coming their way, United Utilities is one example. Of course once you charge for one event then charging for another isn't really a problem except when that event is low key, low cost and the "land usage charge" is more than their entire budget or income from entry fees.

I may be in a minority but I don't enter races or events because of the "goody bag" but because I want to do the race.

Sorry if the above is a bit of a rant
 The New NickB 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

I did the 3 Shires a few weeks back, £8 and lots of grumbling about the price, but that's fell runners for you. Even with free pie at the end, pie always beats a T-Shirt.
 Simon Caldwell 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:

> My comment about "the ethos" is as much to do with the selling of such events as "adventure". Just where is the adventure in following a fully marked route?

Very few of the Open Adventure events are marked. The Open5 series are navigation events (scoreMTB orienteering and running on paths and open access). Lakes in a Day is an unmarked fell route from Caldbeck over Blencathra and the Helvellyn range to Cartmel. They do a lot of 'adventure racing' events, a combination of running, road cycling, MTB, and kayaking, with some marked sections and some orienteering.

In fact as far as I know the kendal trail run is the only such event that they do.
rob sykes 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:

all fair points.

just to be clear, i'm not running this saturday for a goody bag and t-shirt - i guess i was just trying to communicate a point about the cost. personally, i'll be running for myself. having fractured my talus whilst climbing a few years ago, doing a half marathon wasn't something i thought i'd do but a 10k went ok a few weeks ago so here goes. if all goes ok i plan to go longer (intro ultra?) next year.

that said, i do like the idea of a pie (as mentioned by nick) as one crosses the line...

 DancingOnRock 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

I don't think it's aimed at locals. It's only 10k! However, that's lower than London prices.

It's part of the festival?
 Bob 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

You've slightly missed the gist of my post there! It wasn't about OA themselves but about the selling of "adventure" when no such thing is being offered.
 Simon Caldwell 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:

Well I guess they started off offering pure "adventure racing" (or as near as you can get in this country), but have expanded to do similar but shorter/easier events. But it makes sense to keep their original name.
 DancingOnRock 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:
> You've slightly missed the gist of my post there! It wasn't about OA themselves but about the selling of "adventure" when no such thing is being offered.

It is if you're up from London to watch Mountaineering Films.

You can go back to the office on the Monday and tell everyone about a brutal race you ran up a mountain.
Post edited at 13:10
 The New NickB 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:

You may be confusing "Adventure Racing" with "Adventure". The former is a contrived way of making people part with their money that doesn't necessarily involve the latter!
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Plenty of us locals run on Scout Scar, and 10km is a good enough distance for November. Its quite good fun racing on your home turf......just not for £15.
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:

Your 'rant' just shows that we think the same. Something like Dunnerdale would be might favourite. Low key venue, some food, minimal guidance, crowded changing facilities, low cost, but all top quality.
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

Yes, about £6.50 would have been the right price!
 Rampikino 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:
I guess it all comes down to the event and can include many aspects including:

The scale
Medal or no
Chip timing costs
Prize money
Goody bags
Catering
Portaloos
Crowd entertainment
Water/gels
Marshals
Road closures
Free t-shirts

Some of it is met by sponsors but I imagine it can stack up. For a standard and basic fell run with very little of the above I hated paying more than a £5.

But where the above is heave - English Half Marathon a couple of weeks ago, you pay a hefty price.
Post edited at 13:31
 DancingOnRock 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

> Plenty of us locals run on Scout Scar, and 10km is a good enough distance for November. Its quite good fun racing on your home turf......just not for £15.

Quite.

That's what I'm saying. If you look at the way the Blurb is phrased. They're selling you something you wouldn't normally do. Something "Adventurous".

I ran Nottingham marathon on Sunday, the first 13miles is alongside the half marathoners. The amount of fuss the half marathoners made about their 'acheivement' on line is unbelievable. I'm not saying a half marathon is easy, and doesn't demand respect but the way some people are talking about it is quite out of perspective.
1
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

I think you've missed out 'operators profit'!
 The New NickB 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Can you explain what you mean about "the fuss they made about their achievement being unbelievable.
 DancingOnRock 01 Oct 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> Can you explain what you mean about "the fuss they made about their achievement being unbelievable.

Yes. Lots of comments along the lines of

"I can't believe it, I actually completed a half marathon."

To put that in context. I was probably the same when I first ran 10k so I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just trying to explain the mindset of some people towards running (at whatever stage they're at).
 The New NickB 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> "I can't believe it, I actually completed a half marathon."

That is no doubt representative of a subset of runners, but by no means all, at any stage in their running career, obviously more likely in big city events. I suspect those travelling to KMFF from London or elsewhere generally don't fit in that subset. Unlike the OP, I see the price of the race mentioned, pretty much par for the course for commercial events and cheap compared to many. That said, I mainly do club events.
 wbo 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob: I think giving people stick about their 'adventures' because they aren't tough enough for you is a little bit harsh to be honest. I'd rather they did something rather than nothing. 99% of people who go climbing, or most any other outdoor activity, aren't having complete monster epics. Where do you place people doing VS-E1 in the Peak?

No matter what you do there is usually someone doing something tougher and nastier.

 Bob 01 Oct 2015
In reply to wbo:

My argument is not about people having an adventure, it's about something that isn't in itself adventurous being advertised/sold as such. I can have an adventure/interesting time driving down a road somewhere remote in Scotland (for example) that I've never been down before but it's not something I would expect to see marketed as an "adventure".

Adventure is to some degree what you make it, it's unpredictable, can catch you unawares. It's not a pre-packaged, cossetted activity with as much risk removed as possible but presented as if that risk is still there.

 Rampikino 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I'm not saying a half marathon is easy, and doesn't demand respect but the way some people are talking about it is quite out of perspective.

I disagree with you here. I'm running Chester Metric Marathon on Sunday and the distance is fine. I've been doing 1/2M races as part of the preparation. For me this about getting a good time.

A few weeks ago I ran Stockport 1/2M and was sitting down, resting before the run, and the guy next to me was asking about my experience. It quickly became apparent that we were dramatically different - he was doing his second ever 1/2M while I was doing the distance for the umpteenth time and targeting a PB and a good finish (top 10% I guess). It would have been very easy for me to have been sniffy about his target of getting close to 2 hours, his running in football shorts and his wide-eyed nervousness. But that would be utterly unfair - it was a big deal to him and being sniffy would not only have been utter tw*tishness on my part but would have served to promote some kind of elitism in this running genre which I, for one, do not believe exists except in the minds of a few sniffy individuals.

Out of perspective? Look at the perspective from the person who sees a 1/2M as a major hurdle and perhaps you may change your view about people celebrating their achievements.
 DancingOnRock 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

Nope. You missed my point.

I'm not being sniffy. As I said we've all been there.

My point is for some people it is a big deal and they want to tell people it's a big deal.

For some people running a mountain race of 10k would be a big deal and worth £15-£20, for others, it's just another run in the mountain and they'd begrudge paying anything for a 10k race.

 Neil Williams 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Which is fine. Those wishing to pay £20 can pay £20, those wishing to pay £0 can, err, just go for a run, and those wishing to pay something in between can choose a suitable race - there are still plenty of them.
 Scomuir 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Bob:

I've worked with someone who's definition of "adventure" was staying in a hotel with less tv channels than she had at home.
 DancingOnRock 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Scomuir:

> I've worked with someone who's definition of "adventure" was staying in a hotel with less tv channels than she had at home.

It's all relative.

There's a thread here about Crib Goch being too dangerous for walkers.
 DaveHK 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> It's all relative.

Absolutely, adventure is a personal thing. I think an activity is adventurous when its outcome is uncertain. Obviously that covers a whole spectrum of different things from DNF to death!

 The New NickB 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:
> There's a thread here about Crib Goch being too dangerous for walkers.

Just to be clear, no there isn't!
Post edited at 16:34
 plyometrics 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Phil1919:

"I guess its a money making venture."

Correct.
 Rampikino 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:


> I ran Nottingham marathon on Sunday, the first 13miles is alongside the half marathoners. The amount of fuss the half marathoners made about their 'acheivement' on line is unbelievable. I'm not saying a half marathon is easy, and doesn't demand respect but the way some people are talking about it is quite out of perspective.

Your words. If that's not being sniffy about someone else's achievement then what is. You even put the word into apostrophes to highlight the fact that you think it nothing of the sort.
OP Phil1919 01 Oct 2015
In reply to plyometrics:

So I will be interested to see if they have priced it too high, hence numbers drop off.
 Yanis Nayu 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

People who claim to have run a marathon when they've only done a half irritate me.
 Rampikino 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Who on earth does that?
 DancingOnRock 01 Oct 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

> Your words. If that's not being sniffy about someone else's achievement then what is. You even put the word into apostrophes to highlight the fact that you think it nothing of the sort.

Or I could have been using quotes to quote a word that was being frequently used, which in the context of the rest of the sentence would have made more sense.

You're talking to someone who regularly paces someone around a ParkRun for 33-36minute finish. Not really the actions of someone 'sniffy'.
 Rampikino 01 Oct 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I'm pleased to hear it and in the spirit of running unity I will trust you.


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