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Following on from previous threads regarding racks I've been trying to rationalise what I carry. I have had one of these on my rack for several years but realised that I don't recall ever using it. The principle seems sound but I can't say that I have ever had a problem where a longer sling didn't solve it.
Al
Post edited at 16:50
1
In reply to GridNorth:
I carry one in the Alps in place of a pulley for crevasse rescue and use it as a normal krab if needed but I've never used it to reduce drag.
I carry one in the Alps in place of a pulley for crevasse rescue and use it as a normal krab if needed but I've never used it to reduce drag.
1
In reply to GridNorth:
I stuck it in my trad rack for years but never really used it like yourself. I now only bring it out for glacier stuff.
I stuck it in my trad rack for years but never really used it like yourself. I now only bring it out for glacier stuff.
In reply to GridNorth:
I have a few on sling draws and use them regularly. Main uses:
-Corner gear on traverse sections (particularly if you're stringing pitches together)
-Sometimes on first piece if your belay isn't below the start of the route (fairly often for sea cliffs)
-On dodgy micros/other gear that I don't want to be pulled out/walk (also reduces the force on that piece in a fall)
-If I'm being an idiot and placing something under an overhang that I know I shouldn't but it makes me feel better when going for the roof
50% making up for poor rope work, 50% making placements less likely to come out.
Also use them as emergency pulley as suggested previously.
I have a few on sling draws and use them regularly. Main uses:
-Corner gear on traverse sections (particularly if you're stringing pitches together)
-Sometimes on first piece if your belay isn't below the start of the route (fairly often for sea cliffs)
-On dodgy micros/other gear that I don't want to be pulled out/walk (also reduces the force on that piece in a fall)
-If I'm being an idiot and placing something under an overhang that I know I shouldn't but it makes me feel better when going for the roof
50% making up for poor rope work, 50% making placements less likely to come out.
Also use them as emergency pulley as suggested previously.
3
In reply to GridNorth:
I have a couple and use them a lot at Swanage, particularly on the sport routes at the Promenade. They reduce the drag quite a lot going round the overhangs and roofs. There is one is this picture just below the climber.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=262950
SMS.
I have a couple and use them a lot at Swanage, particularly on the sport routes at the Promenade. They reduce the drag quite a lot going round the overhangs and roofs. There is one is this picture just below the climber.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=262950
SMS.
In reply to GridNorth:
Have 2 quick draws each with one on the end, use them a lot: traverses and any change of direction of rope, at the top if I'm going to lower off, or for occasional top roping, hauling and in place of a pulley for crevasse rescue etc.
Have 2 quick draws each with one on the end, use them a lot: traverses and any change of direction of rope, at the top if I'm going to lower off, or for occasional top roping, hauling and in place of a pulley for crevasse rescue etc.
In reply to GridNorth:
Actually I forget to say. My mate uses on when sport climbing. When he is working a route, he puts one on the quickdraw that he takes repeated falls on. It reduced wear on the rope.
Actually I forget to say. My mate uses on when sport climbing. When he is working a route, he puts one on the quickdraw that he takes repeated falls on. It reduced wear on the rope.
In reply to GridNorth:
I sometimes carry up to two 60cm alpinedraws, where the rope end has a revolver. They can be a rather useful on those longer (40+ m) pitches, especially if there are roofs or traverses.
I might also pick one or even both along for craggin' routes, if I deem I might need one. But more often than not, one normal 60cm alpine draw is enough.
I sometimes carry up to two 60cm alpinedraws, where the rope end has a revolver. They can be a rather useful on those longer (40+ m) pitches, especially if there are roofs or traverses.
I might also pick one or even both along for craggin' routes, if I deem I might need one. But more often than not, one normal 60cm alpine draw is enough.
In reply to Aigen:
Everytime my mates have bought one they usually jam after taking a lead fall, does this not happen to your mate frequently?
Everytime my mates have bought one they usually jam after taking a lead fall, does this not happen to your mate frequently?
In reply to GridNorth:
I've got a single screwgate one. Gets used for a few things:
- On really special runners (tm), those really important ones either off to the side loads or where you want it close to you
- For improvised hauls and other rescue stuff. With this and a prussic or two you can solve lots of escape problems
- For rope organisation on multi-pitch. This is where it gets most use. When you need to stack the rope you can clip the revolver high on the belay somewhere, clip the rope through it and then pull it down into your stack. Its quick and stacks perfectly. Done either as you belay (every few take-ins) or quickly at the end.
As it also functions as a normal screwgate when needed, I rarely leave it on the ground
I've got a single screwgate one. Gets used for a few things:
- On really special runners (tm), those really important ones either off to the side loads or where you want it close to you
- For improvised hauls and other rescue stuff. With this and a prussic or two you can solve lots of escape problems
- For rope organisation on multi-pitch. This is where it gets most use. When you need to stack the rope you can clip the revolver high on the belay somewhere, clip the rope through it and then pull it down into your stack. Its quick and stacks perfectly. Done either as you belay (every few take-ins) or quickly at the end.
As it also functions as a normal screwgate when needed, I rarely leave it on the ground
1
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:
Many people say this but I've always wondered - although they take some of the impact force away, don't they increase your chance of hitting the floor on rope stretch?
Anyway, I have two as 30 cm QDs on my trad rack. Good when climbing on single where you end up with gear a bit more zig zaggy than you first imagined. I did this on High Neb Buttress at Stanage last weekend. It's an incy bit more run-out than I actually enjoy much and I had one cam towards the left side of the buttress then the next a bit higher, was right over on the right arete. The rope ran fine through them using the two revolver QDs. I carry some sling draws as well for such occasions BUT I've found revolvers on sling draws DON'T work. They really need to be in QD sling with one of the rubber holder bits in it. Loose on sling draw they forever flip round so that the pulley bit is against the sling and rope is running over the other end - completely pointless then!
> They're pretty good for the first draw whilst Sport climbing.
Many people say this but I've always wondered - although they take some of the impact force away, don't they increase your chance of hitting the floor on rope stretch?
Anyway, I have two as 30 cm QDs on my trad rack. Good when climbing on single where you end up with gear a bit more zig zaggy than you first imagined. I did this on High Neb Buttress at Stanage last weekend. It's an incy bit more run-out than I actually enjoy much and I had one cam towards the left side of the buttress then the next a bit higher, was right over on the right arete. The rope ran fine through them using the two revolver QDs. I carry some sling draws as well for such occasions BUT I've found revolvers on sling draws DON'T work. They really need to be in QD sling with one of the rubber holder bits in it. Loose on sling draw they forever flip round so that the pulley bit is against the sling and rope is running over the other end - completely pointless then!
1
In reply to dr_botnik:
I have been using the same 2 Revolvers since they were first brought out by DMM and have taken many many falls on them. They have never jammed in many years of use. The only thing wrong with one of them is that it is suffering from a tiny bit of sea salt corrosion. However, that is my fault as I do not wash them frequently enough and climb predominantly on sea cliffs.
How have they been used by your friends? I am interested in knowing how they usually jam after taking a lead fall.
SMS.
I have been using the same 2 Revolvers since they were first brought out by DMM and have taken many many falls on them. They have never jammed in many years of use. The only thing wrong with one of them is that it is suffering from a tiny bit of sea salt corrosion. However, that is my fault as I do not wash them frequently enough and climb predominantly on sea cliffs.
How have they been used by your friends? I am interested in knowing how they usually jam after taking a lead fall.
SMS.
In reply to GridNorth:
What about as the primary lower off on a sport route? That would seem to be an obvious option, saves wear on both the krab and the rope.
Al
What about as the primary lower off on a sport route? That would seem to be an obvious option, saves wear on both the krab and the rope.
Al
Post edited at 11:04
1
In reply to TobyA:
I used those little rubber retainers you can get (petzl make them for one). Before that I had a bit of tape keeping them in place, but this kept coming off. Obviously you have to make sure you don't ever clip into the loop so that only the rubber is keeping it together, but in 3 years I've never done this.
Have to agree that without this they are simply the most frustrating things as they always turn around and you always notice just when they're out of reach.
I used those little rubber retainers you can get (petzl make them for one). Before that I had a bit of tape keeping them in place, but this kept coming off. Obviously you have to make sure you don't ever clip into the loop so that only the rubber is keeping it together, but in 3 years I've never done this.
Have to agree that without this they are simply the most frustrating things as they always turn around and you always notice just when they're out of reach.
In reply to Robin Woodward:
I did try this once but besides the obvious danger of clipping OUT of the sling like you note (and DMM have the video explaining) I just found it became such a hassle un-looping and re-racking the slingdraws (if one of the krabs was captive) it just made it too much hassle - you invariably needed two hands to sort the sling draws out!
> I used those little rubber retainers you can get (petzl make them for one). Before that I had a bit of tape keeping them in place, but this kept coming off. Obviously you have to make sure you don't ever clip into the loop so that only the rubber is keeping it together, but in 3 years I've never done this.
I did try this once but besides the obvious danger of clipping OUT of the sling like you note (and DMM have the video explaining) I just found it became such a hassle un-looping and re-racking the slingdraws (if one of the krabs was captive) it just made it too much hassle - you invariably needed two hands to sort the sling draws out!
In reply to TobyA:
I don't have this problem as for some reason it took me years of using sling draws before I realised that it's quicker to just unclip the rope krab entirely before pulling the sling out and re-attaching (and hence have developed a method that works well one handed). Using the captive crab actually makes it easier to ensure you don't have problems with the sewn section of the sling if you're trying to just unclip two strands and pull through. I just give it a yank once it's placed to double check the rubber isn't hiding anything (and likewise when I rack them up).
I don't have this problem as for some reason it took me years of using sling draws before I realised that it's quicker to just unclip the rope krab entirely before pulling the sling out and re-attaching (and hence have developed a method that works well one handed). Using the captive crab actually makes it easier to ensure you don't have problems with the sewn section of the sling if you're trying to just unclip two strands and pull through. I just give it a yank once it's placed to double check the rubber isn't hiding anything (and likewise when I rack them up).
In reply to GridNorth:
I rack a long ice screw on one for glacier travel, and that's it.
I rack a long ice screw on one for glacier travel, and that's it.
Post edited at 12:24
In reply to GridNorth:
I've had a couple on my rack since they came out and really rate them. Usually stick on in as a first runner and also and at major 'bends' when climbing on a single. I've also used them back to back as a TR anchor when working sport routes.
Good bit of kit; I'd like to snag myself a screwgate version if anyone has a spare they're willing to part with?
I've had a couple on my rack since they came out and really rate them. Usually stick on in as a first runner and also and at major 'bends' when climbing on a single. I've also used them back to back as a TR anchor when working sport routes.
Good bit of kit; I'd like to snag myself a screwgate version if anyone has a spare they're willing to part with?
In reply to GridNorth:
I can see their benefit with single ropes, rescue and hauling situations however, after some consideration I have demoted mine to the sport rack. IMO half ropes and long slings usually cope with most situations on UK trad.
Al
I can see their benefit with single ropes, rescue and hauling situations however, after some consideration I have demoted mine to the sport rack. IMO half ropes and long slings usually cope with most situations on UK trad.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
As an alternative to a Revolver for (at this point theoretical) pulley use, I have a Petzl OK oval and a 'Ultralegere' pulley wheel. The pulley wheel weighs about 10g; I don't know how efficient it really is. Originally I wanted to put it on a DMM oval but it doesn't fit (so had to get the Petzl oval). There is a Tibloc on the other end of the oval to make a complete hauling pulley. I also have a microtraxion but haven't used it either (keep meaning to place it when moving together but never remember).
All these purchases were inspired by a self-rescue course where a) I realised I hate prussiks and b) hauling your second is really, really hard...
As an alternative to a Revolver for (at this point theoretical) pulley use, I have a Petzl OK oval and a 'Ultralegere' pulley wheel. The pulley wheel weighs about 10g; I don't know how efficient it really is. Originally I wanted to put it on a DMM oval but it doesn't fit (so had to get the Petzl oval). There is a Tibloc on the other end of the oval to make a complete hauling pulley. I also have a microtraxion but haven't used it either (keep meaning to place it when moving together but never remember).
All these purchases were inspired by a self-rescue course where a) I realised I hate prussiks and b) hauling your second is really, really hard...
Post edited at 14:09
In reply to GridNorth:
1. great when stacking ropes in rope bags on a solo aid route
2. when redirecting the rope at the belay when belaying on a hanging stance indirectly - stops the belay device flopping down below you and hence you can belay the second safely and stack the rope. See: http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#redirectingtherope
1. great when stacking ropes in rope bags on a solo aid route
2. when redirecting the rope at the belay when belaying on a hanging stance indirectly - stops the belay device flopping down below you and hence you can belay the second safely and stack the rope. See: http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#redirectingtherope
In reply to TobyA:
In theory, in very specific situations, you might touch down due to yoir belayer moving further due to there being a roller there. The benefit is one you get on every single fall though.
Rubber retainer on a sling draw really isn't that hard to work in the grand scheme of things. It certainly isn't a 2 hand job!!!
> Many people say this but I've always wondered - although they take some of the impact force away, don't they increase your chance of hitting the floor on rope stretch?
In theory, in very specific situations, you might touch down due to yoir belayer moving further due to there being a roller there. The benefit is one you get on every single fall though.
> they really need to be in QD sling with one of the rubber holder bits in it. Loose on sling draw they forever flip round so that the pulley bit is against the sling and rope is running over the other end - completely pointless then!
Rubber retainer on a sling draw really isn't that hard to work in the grand scheme of things. It certainly isn't a 2 hand job!!!
In reply to AJM:
Really? I found it was forever tying itself in knot. Maybe not that hard in the grand scheme of things, but when you are pumped and a bit scared, the scheme of things I'm focusing on is rather small!
> Rubber retainer on a sling draw really isn't that hard to work in the grand scheme of things. It certainly isn't a 2 hand job!!!
Really? I found it was forever tying itself in knot. Maybe not that hard in the grand scheme of things, but when you are pumped and a bit scared, the scheme of things I'm focusing on is rather small!
In reply to TobyA:
I have a Revolver with a Petzl String retainer, if I'm seconding I either clip both carabiners of a slingdraw to my gear loop and sort it out later, or I leave one carabiner attached either to the rope or the gear before I remove it, then I can sort out the extender one handed. To minimise the chance of extending a slingdraw with a retainer and ending up with the carabiner only attached by the rubber retainer I position the stiff sewn section of the sling next to the retainer and use a small rubber 'O' ring like this:
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=223636
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=223637
It makes it obvious if the sling has been passed back through the carabiner.
I have a Revolver with a Petzl String retainer, if I'm seconding I either clip both carabiners of a slingdraw to my gear loop and sort it out later, or I leave one carabiner attached either to the rope or the gear before I remove it, then I can sort out the extender one handed. To minimise the chance of extending a slingdraw with a retainer and ending up with the carabiner only attached by the rubber retainer I position the stiff sewn section of the sling next to the retainer and use a small rubber 'O' ring like this:
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=223636
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=223637
It makes it obvious if the sling has been passed back through the carabiner.
In reply to Fraser:
Cheapest I've seen them is here:
http://www.v12outdoor.com/product.php/2998/dmm-revolver-screwgate-cosmetic-...
Cheapest I've seen them is here:
http://www.v12outdoor.com/product.php/2998/dmm-revolver-screwgate-cosmetic-...
In reply to TobyA:
Yes, really! I have the retainers on all my extendable draws. It wouldn't be possible for me to find the required nunber of hands off rests for the amount of times I use them
Yes, really! I have the retainers on all my extendable draws. It wouldn't be possible for me to find the required nunber of hands off rests for the amount of times I use them
In reply to GridNorth:
I've built up my collection to about 6 of them now. I'm a total Revolver fan. I use them for sport climbing. The main advantages in order of importance to me are:
1. Extend the life of the rope. Particularly important with modern thinner ropes.
2. Make leader falls softer. This is both more pleasant and reduces the chance of injury (though beware if you're belayer is significantly lighter than you - probably better to use non-rollers for lower bolts).
3. Reduce rope drag. Put one on the first bolt (unless I have a light belayer) and on some long wandery routes this is useful.
I don't think DMM are really capitalizing on just how good they are. Their main marketing seems to be that they're for trad not sport and to reduce rope drag which for me is the least important benefit.
They're pricey but I think that the cost is offset by the wear saved on ropes.
I've built up my collection to about 6 of them now. I'm a total Revolver fan. I use them for sport climbing. The main advantages in order of importance to me are:
1. Extend the life of the rope. Particularly important with modern thinner ropes.
2. Make leader falls softer. This is both more pleasant and reduces the chance of injury (though beware if you're belayer is significantly lighter than you - probably better to use non-rollers for lower bolts).
3. Reduce rope drag. Put one on the first bolt (unless I have a light belayer) and on some long wandery routes this is useful.
I don't think DMM are really capitalizing on just how good they are. Their main marketing seems to be that they're for trad not sport and to reduce rope drag which for me is the least important benefit.
They're pricey but I think that the cost is offset by the wear saved on ropes.
In reply to stp:
Actually I forgot a few other advantages too.
They make pulling back up the rope easier after a fall.
They make 'bouncing' back up more efficient. That is when after a fall you are hanging in space and can't reach the rock or dead side of the rope the belayer sits on the rope and you pull up the rope, let go and the belayer sucks in the rope so you go up.
The screwgate version makes top roping smoother.
Actually I forgot a few other advantages too.
They make pulling back up the rope easier after a fall.
They make 'bouncing' back up more efficient. That is when after a fall you are hanging in space and can't reach the rock or dead side of the rope the belayer sits on the rope and you pull up the rope, let go and the belayer sucks in the rope so you go up.
The screwgate version makes top roping smoother.
In reply to GridNorth:
I have a number of them on slings as quick draws. They're excellent for that. Hadn't thought about using them for sport climbing, but I might invest in a few more now.
I have a number of them on slings as quick draws. They're excellent for that. Hadn't thought about using them for sport climbing, but I might invest in a few more now.
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