The lowest weight of fleece

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 BnB 30 Aug 2015
Looking forward to this winter I'm wondering what is the lowest weight of fleece I could introduce as a mid-layer between my ME Eclipse and an outer shell. Must be pretty damn light while still providing (some) insulation. Polartec 100 at c250g per garment is easy to find, but is there a Polartec 75? 50? Or equivalent?

To a degree the function will be more physical than thermal insulation, protecting me from bumps and bruises and the shell from rips and tears by adding a little give to the clothing system.

I've achieved this over the last two winters with a Polartec Alpha hoody as the outer over the Eclipse. This year I fancy a different approach. A heavily lined softshell is an option but I fancy a more flexible, layered approach.

Could even introduce a windshell at only 100g as the midlayer but only limited insulation there.

Thoughts anyone?
ultrabumbly 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

I have a really light TNF fleece that is approach the end of its days. I got it about 10+ years ago. I think it is a 100 but the label has long since gone. The thing I love about it is it has no fleece from the hip to the armpit but v.light stretch panels instead that give a tight fit. I have seen similar recently but not in my size and I neglected to look at the model name.

ultrabumbly 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

this might be of use for ideas as it is sorted by weight

http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/mens-clothing-c1/mens-fleece-c50/fle...

they have a section for jackets too.
OP BnB 30 Aug 2015
In reply to ultrabumbly:

That's rather nifty thanks but in fact the Rab and Montane items I'd already picked out as the pick of the Polartec 100s. Perhaps that's the minimum weight of insulation available?
 The Potato 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_fleece

This would suggest there is a micro polar fleece
 The Potato 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:
What about something polypro like Helly Hansen Lifa Dry Crew?
 DaveHK 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:
I've got a Rab AL Pull On that weighs in at 211g for a medium.
Post edited at 18:52
OP BnB 30 Aug 2015
In reply to DaveHK:



> I've got a Rab AL Pull On that weighs in at 211g for a medium.

Lightweight. But more of a base-midlayer. I have one as an alternative to the ME Eclipse.
OP BnB 30 Aug 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

> What about something polypro like Helly Hansen Lifa Dry Crew?

Might well be the best option
 TobyA 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:
> Might well be the best option

But to wear _over_ and eclipse? I wear Lifa under a hooded midlayer like the eclipse. It seems weird to put it over a fleece...
Maybe just use the eclipse as the midlayer and wear some type of thermal under it?
This is my hoody http://www.mec.ca/product/5026-604/mec-t3-hoodie-mens/?f=10+50089+51141 and I notice they say the current ones weigh only just over 200 grams, but you need a friend in Canada to get one!
Post edited at 20:53
 The Potato 30 Aug 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Nah over another baselayer
 Siward 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

How about one of those paramo reversible tops- I have a shirt in a similar material which is very versatile. A quick search tells me it's now called parameta T+ as used in, e.g. their Cambia top.
ultrabumbly 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

well you have stuff like http://www.montane.co.uk/range/men/baselayer/allez-micro-hoodie that is half way between a base layer and a mid and made out of the likes of Polartec Grid. Usually found under the baselayer section of online shops. There wouldn't be much "cushioning" in it though as you said you were after that aspect.
 iksander 30 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

Patagonia cap 4, MEC T2
OP BnB 30 Aug 2015
In reply to TobyA:


> But to wear _over_ and eclipse? I wear Lifa under a hooded midlayer like the eclipse. It seems weird to put it over a fleece...

> Maybe just use the eclipse as the midlayer and wear some type of thermal under it?

Brynje mesh already goes under ME eclipse. With the very lightweight and highly breathable shell I have in mind I think I'll feel a tad underinsulated so I'm looking for a featherweight additional midlayer with a looser fit. On the walk-in I can choose between the shell or the extra midlayer to replace the windshirt I normally carry to guarantee maximum comfort and dryness on the walk-in.

This replacement system could shave 500g making grade VII (from my current IV) a virtual certainty

OP BnB 30 Aug 2015
In reply to iksander:

Thanks but I'm after something looser fitting. The ME Eclipse is basically a pretty similar grid fleece so any layer over it needs to glide smoothly over the top as well as under the shell. I'm well aware this might be asking too much but who doesn't like to experiment?
In reply to BnB:
One of the lighter weight PowerDry offerings, or equivalent.

I've got some MEC T3 hoodies, and they're very light. Also look at the Decathlon Techwinter 500 shirt.
Post edited at 22:37
 JayPee630 31 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:
I can't quite get the advantages or how what you're after would work?

I use a similar set-up to you, and as well as the lack of faff one of the things I really like is the lack of binding/catching between the layers, which won't happen if you put another fleece type thing on top of your base and mid-layer?

Wouldn't it be better to just get a sightly thicker base or mid-layer rather then add in another whole new layer?

In the winter I use one of a few base layers varying in thickness and design (with or without a hood) and then a hooded non-membrane softshell, a Polartec Alpha hoody, and a waterproof shell, and mix and match those three to suit, and they can all be worn on top or under each other with no problem.

In the summer I use a similar mix but with obviously lighter base layers and then a hooded pertex windshirt, a thin microfleece pullover, and a waterproof shell, and mix and match them to suit again.

On top of both those systems I carry a synthetic belay jacket (light one in summer/heavier one in winter) for emergencies and stops if needed.

What it lacks in perfection I find makes up for in lack of faff and complications.

If you really want something else, maybe a thin windproof (with maybe a very thin lining?) like you suggested?
Post edited at 07:18
 Morgan Woods 31 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

I think a gilet works well in these sort of situation. I use a patagonia fleece one on top of a baselayer below a hard shell for skiing and climbing. It's not a windproof one just their standard fleece, but adds warmth to where you need it and not where you don't ie your arms.
 JayPee630 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Morgan Woods:

Yeah, the other thing that I was thinking might work for this would be a very thin fleece gilet (like the Eclipse gridded fabric) with a pertex front as well, or maybe a pertex shell on it generally. It could then be worn as an outer layer.
 The Potato 31 Aug 2015
In reply to JayPee630 :

Also consider rab vr gilet
 JayPee630 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:
Oh didn't know they made that. Yes, that might work well. 180g too. Good find. Marmot make one too it looks like, 150g... http://marmot.com/products/details/stride-vest
Post edited at 08:35
OP BnB 31 Aug 2015
In reply to Morgan Woods:

> I think a gilet works well in these sort of situation. I use a patagonia fleece one on top of a baselayer below a hard shell for skiing and climbing. It's not a windproof one just their standard fleece, but adds warmth to where you need it and not where you don't ie your arms.

I have a range of gilets/vests already and used to swear by them before I invested in the mesh, which now provides much of the warmth the core demands. In general, yours is a good suggestion but, perhaps perversely, I like a little padding on my arms.
OP BnB 31 Aug 2015
In reply to JayPee630:

> I can't quite get the advantages or how what you're after would work?

> I use a similar set-up to you, and as well as the lack of faff one of the things I really like is the lack of binding/catching between the layers, which won't happen if you put another fleece type thing on top of your base and mid-layer?

> If you really want something else, maybe a thin windproof (with maybe a very thin lining?) like you suggested?

As you say, perhaps I'm asking for the impossible, the comfort and breathability of a microfleece with the (inter-fabric) glide of a windshell.

This is one way I have of looking forward to winter. Last year, I found the combination of Polartec Alpha jacket over ME Eclipse over Brynje mesh tee was the most comfortable of several options for Scottish climbs at my grade. But it called for a windshell and waterproof in the pack as well which hardly seems "fast and light".

I've got a new softshell on order made out of Powershield Pro (as opposed to the regular Powershield) which is effectively untaped Neoshell and waterproof to a level (3,000mm hydrostatic head) that should embolden me to ditch the hardshell on days promising anything other than the wettest or wildest of Scottish conditions. It may be that the shell provides sufficient insulation on its own, or perhaps that it needs a little boost to replicate the on-the-move cosiness of Alpha. But it should liberate me of my hardshell, except on days when the Goretex Pro is the first item thrown in the car.

Looks perfect for snowboarding too.
 JayPee630 31 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:
I think maybe I run hotter than you then, as I manage with one thick base layer (Eclipse equivalent) in the coldest conditions, with then some mix of the Alpha/softshell/waterproof combo on top.

(I can't get on with the Eclipse, R1, and equivalent as mid-layers at all, they work best for me when they're snugly fitting base layers.)

Now you're mentioning it though, I can see the point of a micro fleece shelled gilet to add in there! Patagonia do a trail running one that looks good, not even any pertex on the back so would be good for carrying a pack http://www.patagonia.com/eu/enGB/product/mens-wind-shield-hybrid-soft-shell...

What's the new softshell you're mentioning, it sounds good. I would love to dump the waterproof as well, but haven't got the nerve (or gear options) to do that yet!
Post edited at 09:42
OP BnB 31 Aug 2015
In reply to JayPee630:

This little fella

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-kniferidge-jacket?p=83565-0

It's an update on the Knifeblade, itself a development of the well-received Northwall, both of which got rave reviews so were discontinued in true Patagonia fashion.

It's just another point along the waterproof/breathable spectrum to explore. Less watertight than Goretex Pro and Neoshell but far more so than Powershield and other softshells as it doesn't rely on the DWR for its proofing. Looks perfect for skiing and snowboarding but might hit the sweet spot for ice and mixed on, errr, mixed winter days other than severe Scottish conditions, which I have the free time to avoid in general and would address with Goretex Pro if venturing out.
 angry pirate 31 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

I like the look of the berghaus hypertherm hoodie
http://www.berghaus.com/mens-vapourlight-hypertherm-hoody/421526.html
as a superlight insulation piece as the fabric looks like it'll slide under layers well.
I'm currently trying to wear out my fleece hoody so I have an excuse to replace it!
 galpinos 31 Aug 2015
In reply to BnB:

> This little fella


Have you got it? The pockets look like they'd sit under a harness? The still haven't come up with anything as good as the Mixmaster.....

OP BnB 31 Aug 2015
In reply to galpinos:
> Have you got it? The pockets look like they'd sit under a harness? The still haven't come up with anything as good as the Mixmaster.....

Not yet. They claim you can access the pockets while wearing a harness. I'm not bothered as I don't have much use for pockets when climbing anyway. Hand warmer pockets are handy on the walk-in but you're not wearing a harness then are you? Ideally the chest pocket could be a bit larger to hold a glove or two temporarily while you fiddle with gear but I understand from my contacts at Patagonia that climber-oriented Napoleon pockets are too niche in a target market that has a stronger ski touring/alpine skiing and snowboarding customer profile.
Post edited at 20:42
 galpinos 01 Sep 2015
In reply to BnB:

I saw it in an advert in Alpinist and it seemed to be aimed at skiers. Looks nice though.

My hang up with pockets and harnesses is that there is no reason to have them clash and I do find zips under a harness more uncomfortable than not, especially if you're not wearing a lot underneath. I had thought Patagonia to be above "focus group/target market" guff but I guess they can only do so many "statement pieces" a year, some stuff has to have mass (i.e. Not cutting edge users) appeal.

Having said all that, I've another child due in Jan so my winter wardrobe needs to be tailored to the treacherous walk from my house to the local coffee shop. The Kniferidge looks ideal!
 Doug 01 Sep 2015
In reply to BnB:

>... I understand from my contacts at Patagonia that climber-oriented Napoleon pockets are too niche in a target market that has a stronger ski touring/alpine skiing and snowboarding customer profile.

sounds odd, I wouldn't buy a jacket for ski touring unless it had napoleon pockets - I can get at them despite the hipbelt of my rucksac and they tend to be bigger so good for skins, maps, etc
OP BnB 01 Sep 2015
In reply to Doug:

I find Napoleon pockets make me too hot once you stick anything in them. Fine for a momentary glove stash but otherwise I prefer the hand warmer option.
 Doug 01 Sep 2015
In reply to BnB:

My last two jackets had mesh pockets - seems to work (at least for me)
OP BnB 01 Sep 2015
In reply to galpinos:

They are set high enough that they might, just might, sit clear of the harness. Or so they claim on the product page.

Keep any eye out for ungritted pavement as well. Best take crampons.
OP BnB 01 Sep 2015
In reply to Doug:

Doesn't matter what they're made of once they are full of insulating maps or gloves
 The Potato 01 Sep 2015
In reply to BnB:

I find pockets in jackets useful for ventilation more than storage, a map for example I find restrictive in a pocket, I try and scan and print maps rather than carry the whole thing anyway.
OP BnB 01 Sep 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

Ditto

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