Tough job to be the Police

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 Timmd 11 Aug 2015

For some reason I've been watching the occasional youtube video about criminal gangs, and have been struck by how even within the same gangs people can be killed when it comes to greed and status, & then I came across this about London police being attacked by around 400 people disguising their identities with masks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stamford-hill-party-attack-m...
Post edited at 18:22
In reply to Timmd:

Bloody scary. They did very well not to allow it to kick off into a full-scale riot by the sound of things.
 Indy 11 Aug 2015
In reply to Timmd:

Oh how fun people using a Police tactic against the Police!

The officer that violently attacted Ian Tomlinson seconds before he died was wearing a balaclava and had removed his ID number making it hard to identify him. Many Police Officers routinely cover up id numbers to commit wanton acts of brutality in the knowledge that the a blind eye will be turned.

Heres some interesting reading
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/mar/18/g20-protest-officers-not-discipli...
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 off-duty 11 Aug 2015
In reply to Indy:

> Oh how fun people using a Police tactic against the Police!

Yep, isn't it unfair that the nasty police try to stop people going about their lawful business, attacking paramedics and the like.

> The officer that violently attacted Ian Tomlinson seconds before he died was wearing a balaclava and had removed his ID number making it hard to identify him.

Balaclava = routinely worn flameproof part of riot gear PPE.
Had he "removed" his Id - or was he just not wearing them on his outer clothing.
Not good - however he was identified by 3 of his colleagues as soon as the footage was released.

Many Police Officers routinely cover up id numbers to commit wanton acts of brutality in the knowledge that the a blind eye will be turned.

Bullsh1t. But at least you haven't tried to back up that opinion with any actual facts.

Have bad things happened in the past involving officers who have been difficult to identify - yes.
Are there occasions where deliberate hiding of collar number has occurred - probably.
Are there occasions when the piss-poor equipment provided to police means that epaullettes are ripped off, or are worn on a garment that is then covered with another garments, or are obscured by a PSU suit, or are instead/as well written in large numbers on a riot helmet - yes.
Are the police being much more rigid about enforcing visible numbers, and even - shock horror - now issuing multiple sets, fabric, metal etc to enable every garment to be labelled - yes.

Do "many" police officers, "routinely" cover up there epaulettes to commit "wanton brutality", in the knowledge that "a blind eye will be turned".
Not in my experience. And unless you are sat in a police locker room prior to a deployment - not in yours either.
(I'm assuming by turning a"blind eye" you mean being prosecuted in a court trial like Smellie and Harwood.)

> Heres some interesting reading


Do you base all your opinions of the police on reports that are 5 years out of date?

Impressed that anyone can turn 400 morons attacking police into an anti police comment. Well done.
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 tehmarks 11 Aug 2015
In reply to off-duty:

I don't know who's disliking you, but maybe they need to grow a pair and actually discuss your post rather than hiding behind an anonymous feature. It's sad that Facebook has came to UKC and we're apparently being reduced to faceless button-clicking rather than actual discussion.

But, have a like from me. Well said.
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 Auz 11 Aug 2015
In reply to off-duty:

Don't feed the troll.
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 THE.WALRUS 11 Aug 2015
In reply to off-duty:

> Impressed that anyone can turn 400 morons attacking police into an anti police comment. Well done.

Standard dimwitted, anti-police nonsense...barely worthy of a reply.

Interesting that the Duggan debate appears to have fizzled out, now that his mum had admitted that he was in possession of a gun at the time he was shut by the police.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/pamela-duggan/why-i-want-a-public-enqui_b_7...
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J1234 12 Aug 2015
In reply to off-duty:

I feel the Police should have much more respect, with harsh punishment for any foul language or violence or just lack of respect to the officer.
However by the same regard the police should sort themselves out, drag back those who retire to dodge accusations or those who move forces to avoid accusations. Also when I see an officer wandering the street in body armour with biceps with tattoos showing, I am not impressed just saddened.
I used to respect the police, sadly I no longer do because of personal interactions with Police and things like Hillsborough.

Respect is earned.
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 THE.WALRUS 12 Aug 2015
In reply to Que Sera Sera:
The fact that some of them have body armour, big biceps and tattoo's isn't really a sound basis for not respecting the police.

And your thoughts on the policing of the Hillsborough disaster almost 30 years ago bares no reflection on the character of the officer you see wandering up the street. He probably wasn't born then.

Does OffDuty have big biceps and body art?
Post edited at 08:59
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J1234 12 Aug 2015
In reply to THE.WALRUS:

> The fact that some of them have body armour, big biceps and tattoo's isn't really a sound basis for not respecting the police.

To me there is, they look like yobs

> And your thoughts on the policing of the Hillsborough disaster almost 30 years ago bares no reflection on the character of the officer you see wandering up the street. He probably wasn't born then.

I was talking to a Police officer the other day, who said Hillsborough was the fault of the pissed up fans and the police had no blame, sounds like they need a culture change, and he was not middle aged and white but Asian and about early 30`s so you may expect would be in tune with modern sensibilities.


In reply to Que Sera Sera:

> To me there is, they look like yobs

> I was talking to a Police officer the other day, who said Hillsborough was the fault of the pissed up fans and the police had no blame, sounds like they need a culture change, and he was not middle aged and white but Asian and about early 30`s so you may expect would be in tune with modern sensibilities.

Hillsborough was caused by exactly that combined with 80's football culture. If football fans knew how to behave, there wouldn't have been fences in the first place.

Granted, the senior officer did lie afterwards which is unforgivable. But the crix of the matter is that there were too many p1ssed up scousers with no tickets trying to force their way in. They forced the senior officer to make a decision, a it was a lose-lose situation. Yes, he lied about this and tried to cover his failings. That does not alter the cause... and you will never find a 'fan' say "I was there, drunk and without a ticket."

and those who sadly died were true fans who got there in plenty of time.

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J1234 12 Aug 2015
In reply to stucknortherner:

>

> Yes, he lied about this and tried to cover his failings.

>

Retired and on a pension ducking responsibility and even now IMHO only coming clean to absolve his consience so really for selfish reasons, he should be in Prison and he is a disgrace to a force who do a vital and difficult job, but are not respected as they should be, because of people like him.
Say what you like but the Police can only operate by consent, and they need our respect for that, and they have lost or are losing it from many.

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 Max Clarke 12 Aug 2015
In reply to Que Sera Sera:

I hope you're trolling.

Tattoos don't make a person look a 'yob'.

I'm not going to argue with you on the Internet, because in my experience, people with warped/dated views like yourself cannot be argued with.

However, if you truly believe that a police officer with tattoos is less respectable than one without, then you ought to give your head a shake. That's crazy.
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J1234 12 Aug 2015
In reply to Max Clarke:
Your 23 with totally different perspective to me at 52 and an elderly person at 75, and to me Police officer with tribal tattos looks like a thug, and as a public facing body they have to take these things into consideration.

Oh and I did not say "is less respectable", actually thats exactly what I mean in this context, however I do not think that tattoos denote anything about a persons character good bad or otherwise, but appearances do matter, if you think otherwise have I`m a lovely person tattoed on your forehead, and watch your career take off.
Post edited at 11:02
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 off-duty 12 Aug 2015
In reply to Que Sera Sera:

Much as I tried to resist responding, sometimes I can't really help myself.

I tend to file posts like yours into "non-specific whinges about the police". They tend to be characterised by no relevance to the thread, lack of actual research in the topic that "outrages" the poster and usually some logical inconsistencies in the posters argument.

At the risk of losing your respect, I'm afraid you tick all those boxes.

I feel the Police should have much more respect, with harsh punishment for ....... just lack of respect to the officer. is followed up with

I used to respect the police, sadly I no longer do because of personal interactions with Police and things like Hillsborough.

Respect is earned.
and they look like yobs"

So perhaps you need to amend your opening statement, because you clearly feel it is entirely reasonable NOT to respect the police.

To continue on the theme of "respect". I tend to agree - it should be earned. Unfortunately it does become tiresome to have to reel out your entire CV every time you interact with a new member of the public, whilst they suck on their teeth and demand "Respeck, innit..."
As usual with any job where you interact with the public, we might see hundreds of people per week. Some of them will only have dealt with one police officer in their entire lives.
I tend to stick with the "treat people nicely, until you need to treat them differently."
Sadly we don't always get it right, and dealing with a member of the public badly is remembered much longer, and spread much more widely than the 99 other fantastic interactions that same officer might have had that day.


Then we have your objection to tattoos (and biceps?). The police are the public and public are the police. If you want a diverse and representative workforce then perhaps worrying too much about personal appearance is going to hamper that. If we continue to recruit "in our own image" then we will struggle to adapt to, change with. and more importantly police, society.

You mention discipline :-
However by the same regard the police should sort themselves out, drag back those who retire to dodge accusations or those who move forces to avoid accusations.

Home Office regulations, widely talked about, came into force in January to prevent this.

Then you bring up Hillsborough.
You have a lack of respect for "the police" as a result of Hillsborough. The problem with such a generic view is it also includes a dislike of those officers that rushed to carry out first-aid, those that stayed "at work" for ridiculously long shifts to help the victims and everyone else in the stadium.

Then you clarify (a bit) why you have this opinion - it's because you spoke to a police officer, who wasn't there, certainly wasn't in the police at that time, but who had the temerity not to share your opinion of the events on that day.
I'm sorry to have to break it to you - but cops are not all clones, and we will all have our own views on events on that day and the aftermath.

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J1234 12 Aug 2015
In reply to off-duty:
And your view is on a feedback loop that is constantly being reinforced by other officers in the staff room or whatever you call it. I find that Police are respected less than they used to be, fact, as a police officer the "respectable people" you meet perhaps will not say this to your face, but I bet many think it.
I do think Police officers should be respected.
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 MG 12 Aug 2015
In reply to off-duty:

Yes, yes, fine. Now, do you have big biceps?
 off-duty 12 Aug 2015
In reply to Que Sera Sera:

> And your view is on a feedback loop that is constantly being reinforced by other officers in the staff room or whatever you call it. I find that Police are respected less than they used to be, fact, as a police officer the "respectable people" you meet perhaps will not say this to your face, but I bet many think it.

I'm sure we are "respected" less by some. I still deal with the same victims of the same crimes in the same (actually nowadays in a better way) than I used to.
Sadly I think some of the many media commentators that take great pleasure in drumming up anti-police fervour should reflect on the effect they have on trying to police in the UK. We are not the US police and the UK does not have the same racial divides as Klu Klux Klan America of the 60's as much as some of those commentators almost gleefully appear to think, or wish, that it is.

It's also interesting that you consider that "the police" have an internally consistent feedback loop. There is massive diversity of opinion within the police on almost every subject from sport through culture to politics. The only general similarity is that there is more of a consensus (though by no means general agreement) towards small "c" conservative attitudes towards crime and punishment. Understandable really - as we deal with victims of crime every day, as well as dealing with the same criminals daily as well.

> I do think Police officers should be respected.

Thanks.
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 MG 12 Aug 2015
In reply to off-duty:
> I'm sure we are "respected" less by some.

I think trust is what is being lost rather than (rather nebulous) respect. The repeated cycles along the lines of

- Complaint
- Statement explaining how nothing untoward happened
- There is no video
- Oh, there is!
- Retraction of clearly erroneous/false statement
- Some punishment for wrong doing (or not)

leads to lack of trust. I know 99/100 times complaints are ill-founded but there are enough cases of the above, or similar, for trust to be seriously eroded. I feel this and I am white, male, and comfortably off. I can only wonder how those at the other end of society feel.
Post edited at 11:57
 off-duty 12 Aug 2015
In reply to MG:
> I think trust is what is being lost rather than (rather nebulous) respect. The repeated cycles along the lines of

> - Complaint

> - Statement explaining how nothing untoward happened

> - There is no video

> - Oh, there is!

> - Retraction of clearly erroneous/false statement

> - Some punishment for wrong doing (or not)

> leads to lack of trust. I know 99/100 times complaints are ill-founded but there are enough cases of the above, or similar, for trust to be seriously eroded. I feel this and I am white, male, and comfortably off. I can only wonder how those at the other end of society feel.


Fair points, however I think the biggest change is that nowadays ONE cycle as you demonstrate is now publicised widely - social media, online news, 24 hour news "fillers" etc.
What people forget is that these aren't "repeated" - they are given a massively disproportionate amount of attention compared to the other hundreds/thousands of incidents of equal scal that are dealt with well.
Don't misunderstand me - the lessons we learn from these high-profile or high visibility incidents are usually valuable, but the knock on effect of people considering that these are in some way "typical" of police response can be equally disproportionately damaging to trust/respect.


PS I'm not telling about the biceps
Post edited at 12:05
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 Rob Exile Ward 12 Aug 2015
In reply to MG:

I'm not sure that cycle you describe is limited to the police. There seems to have been quite a culture within NHS management , among the military, the education establishment, social work ...whenever a scandal occurs management invariably swear everything was done correctly until it transpires that it wasn't.

I suspect part of the problem is to do with leadership, and by that I mean the politicians who are ultimately responsible, demand simple answers to complex problems and don't have the cojones to lead by example and occasionally put their hands up and say 'sorry, I screwed up.' Not surprising if those under them follow their example.
 Mark Bannan 12 Aug 2015
In reply to Timmd:

It certainly is a tough job - what other profession is commonly referred to by disrespectful animal names ("pigs")?

Many surveys about which jobs are most stressful consistently place police near the top.

I know no-one and no profession is perfect, but when complaints are made against any worker most are unquestionably spurious. Given press furore about the very rare occasions of professional incompetence (by anyone, including NHS, police, teachers, plumbers, electricians etc., etc.), one could be forgiven for thinking otherwise. It sometimes seems that the real rulers of the country are the (usually right wing) gutter press, with the worst culprits being the Daily Mail and the Daily Express.

M
 Billhook 12 Aug 2015
In reply to Timmd:

I wonder how many of you have lived for a few years in another country??

From experience I an only say that our police are saints compared with the two countries I've lived in.

In one of these countries - a popular western european holiday destination, the police are feared and often beat alleged criminals up before and after arrest if they don't like you. In another country just over the water where they speak a language which some people may say is English, I can only surmise that their total training period amounts to about a day and that the power of wearing a uniform goes to their head and some of the ones I met acted like they were judge, jury and punisher - pretty much the ignorant bully in my opinion.
 Mike Highbury 12 Aug 2015
In reply to off-duty:
> PS I'm not telling about the biceps

OK, your cock then: cut or uncut?
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 ericoides 12 Aug 2015
In reply to Mike Highbury:

Yes, not here, please. There's a thread on this in the biking forum.
In reply to Que Sera Sera:

> sounds like they need a culture change
> and to me Police officer with tribal tattos looks like a thug

'Culture changes' needed all round, then...? It appears you are not 'in tune with modern sensibilities'...

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