UKH

Hi folks,

Question for you guys.

I have a Mountain Equipment Ogre jacket purchased from a major high street retailer of outdoor goods between one and two years ago. It's been a great coat in every respect (and one I that I would have recommended to others until now) except that it has worn on the back of the jacket - the wear has happened because of an internal drawstring that has caused a ridge in the outer material which has worn from rubbing against my rucksack.

I returned it to the retailer yesterday and initially they said they would return it to ME for them to appraise (although at the time they said they thought that it would come under normal wear and tear and, as such wouldn't be covered by warranty). This morning however, I've had a call back to say that, after speaking to ME, they have confirmed that the damage does come under the definition of 'normal wear and tear' and therefore won't be sending the jacket back to the manufacturer. Now, I've probably had somewhere in the region of twenty mountain days wearing the garment - and it's a jacket designed for that use and therefore to be worn with a rucksack - so to be told that that decision has been made by a member of shop staff and that ME's policy is that customers deal with retailers rather than them themselves leaves me with no recourse.

Incidentally, having just checked the retailers website, they appear to offer two year guarantees for members of their 'Explore More' loyalty programme. There is an asterix attached to that promise however. I can only assume that that means the warranty is at their discretion (and therefore pointless!)

Any ideas? Or do I just put the whole thing down to experience and go shopping elsewhere..

In reply to Tony Jones: Why dont you just try talking to the guys at Mountain Equipment yourself ? 0161 366 5020 At least then youd have an idea of what their reasoning could be, especially as they haven't seen the jacket.

In reply to Tony Jones:


That's the law. In this case, the Sale of Goods Act; your contract is with the retailer, not ME.

I'd be thinking about 'fitness for purpose', and 'inherent design fault' if a rucksack caused a jacket to wear through in 20 days use.

I've had cause to have dealings with ME in the past, and they were resolved very satisfactorily (it was accidental damage, and they were very generous; I asked nicely for a scrap of fabric). Admittedly, many years ago now...

In reply to Tony Jones:

Recently sent back a marmot super mica through cotswold. Over 2 years old so well out of warranty (with the retailer). Jacket had delaminated around the neck. I had given it a fair amount of abuse over the years. Cotswold were really good fair play and I had a brand new jacket replaced under manufacturer warranty within a week.

Top job marmot and retailer.

In reply to Tony Jones:
I'd contact ME innocently asking if there might be a fault in the jacket as it's worn through very quickly, they'll probably want to keep you happy for their reputation and that kind of thing.

As products and fabrics get lighter they probably are going to wear through more quickly though...

In reply to Tony Jones:


FWIW, my sole complaint of this kind (not Mountain Equipment but OMM, who'll simply never get my business again)...
http://www.petestack.com/blog/last-omm-product-ill-be-buying.html

In reply to Timmd:

Thanks for the replies.

The points about 'fitness for purpose' and 'inherent design fault' are well made and I did bring that up in store but they didn't really address that and kept repeating the 'normal wear and tear' mantra. I had actually thought about removing the draw chord myself when it became apparent that this was causing the wear on the back of the jacket. I've contacted ME and am awaiting a call back.

Sometimes, with stuff like this, I fear that any satisfactory resolution is down to whoever you speak to instore and that, in this case, I haven't been too fortunate in that regard.

In reply to petestack:

Pete, your blog makes for an interesting read. It was suggested by one of the retail staff yesterday that the fault lay with my choice of rucksack. Incidentally, I have a new-ish Lowe Alpine Attack 35 - just the kind of thing you'd wear with a mountain jacket I would guess. Perhaps I will take that with me when I go to pick my jacket up. So far, I have no quarrel with ME, just the brick wall I have to batter down by dealing with their retailer..

In reply to Tony Jones:


Yep, what I got was folk blaming everything except the problem item (as I wrote, "nobody’s said, 'careful… don’t wear your **** with anything else because it will damage it'"). Whereas I'm certain where the problem lay and don't blog about things damaged or destroyed through my own carelessness!


Might add that I've got a much-used ME Kongur jacket (which I thought technically similar to the Ogre) still going strong after nine years, which is way longer than most folk expect to get from Gore-Tex? And no wear at all from the waist-level drawcord on mine, though I must confess I've never tightened it...

In reply to petestack:


I've just phoned ME as I was expecting a callback and found that, as it's after 4 and it's Friday, the customer services folk have buggered off home (don't blame them for that but I was told they were going to call me back!) The person that answered the call did say that I was welcome to send the jacket back to them for inspection though which seems to be at odds with the response given by the staff at C******D this morning.


I've never used the waist-level drawcord either which is why I considered pulling the thing out before it caused further damage.

In reply to Tony Jones:

Every bit of gear has a high wear point. Unfortunately they often wear out in these places and the rest of the item can be in almost brand new condition (eg Boot soles, carabiner rope basket, rope core shots).

Realistically, ME are very unlikely to replace a 2 year old jacket. Unless you've been running 50 miles ultras in it then 20 mountain days does seems very odd to wear through GTX Pro Shell?

In reply to Tony Jones:


I might start to wonder if C******D have actually contacted ME at all, or just said they have, and made up a reply in an attempt to fob you off. Knowledge of, and implementation of the terms of the Sale of Goods Act is 'sketchy'...

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

I missed the 'two years old' part. Hmmmm....

In reply to Tony Jones:

I can see where the retailer is coming from, 2 year old jacket with fabric worn through, owner says only used it for 20 days. Do they really believe you?
When I worked for a large outdoor equipment retailer we'd get all sorts of stories from people trying to get refunds/replacements and after a while you start to lose faith in what the customers say.

In reply to captain paranoia:


And that's a fair comment. The store's loyalty card does however mention a two year guarantee (a point I brought up when picking up the jacket from them this afternoon - after their refusal to send it back to ME - only to be quoted the old 'normal wear and tear 'thing again).

The further discussion that ensued this afternoon went around in circles, I mention a 'flaw in design', he responds with 'normal wear and tear'. I say 'not fit for purpose', he says 'normal wear and tear', I say 'is it reasonable to wear a rucksack in winter?' (after the point where we'd agreed that my rucksack was actually suitable for a day on the fells) he agrees but then says it depends how much weight you have in it. I think if I'd said the Titanic's lack of lifeboats was due to a flaw in its design and that, as a result, it wasn't fit for purpose he'd have countered it with it being down to normal wear and tear.

I'll send it back to ME, see what they say, and, if I don't get any joy, buy a tube of aquasure and run it along the worn bit. Doesn't really have to be breathable all over does it! :-D

I won't be rushing back to my local emporium of outdoor gear though - I can't really, not after my parting comment about everything being cheaper at Rock+Run anyway..

In reply to Tony Jones:

Well, looking at the Mountain Equipment website it says that the RETAILER will decide if its a warranty repair and if so do the replacemet or tell you to foxtrot oscar. Also worth bearing in mind that ME will require you to have a valid reciept for the entire time you own the product if you wish to claim for faulty workmanship etc also they'll void any warranty for say faulty workmanship if you decide to sell the item for whatever reason and despite it maybe only being a few days old.

You've got to applaude ME's legal dept. for the watertightness of its warranties.

via phone

In reply to Tony Jones:


A guarantee from defects not relating to standard wear and tear etc. I recall Osprey having a lifetime guarantee on their bags, that doesn't mean you can come back in 30 years and say the straps have worn through but you only used it for a month. I once worked for an outdoor store and we had a guy come in who had ripped his fairly new jacket whilst bouldering, and was trying to get us to exchange it because it was sold as a climbing jacket and it ripped whilst he was climbing. Trust me, after a thousand similar experiences you will need a solid reason as to why your jacket isn't fit for purpose.

In reply to Indy:



A receipt gives the manufacturer/retailer proof and date of purchase. It seems reasonable to ask the customer provide some evidence of these things, bank statements usually will also suffice. Perhaps if you're in the habit of buying next to brand new things and think there may one day be a reason to claim for faulty workmanship ask the seller for the receipt also? Providing you don't want to try and get a refund you shouldn't have any issues as they won't know the original buyer isn't you.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

I you don't get it..... "if you're in the habit of buying next to brand new things.... [Mountain Equipment]" then ME will consider its warranty void as they specifically say that its ONLY valid to the ORIGINAL purchaser. So, if you bought a £500 Mountain Equipment jacket decided after 1 use it wasn't suitable and sold it a week old from new then Mountain Equipment would refuse to to honour any warranty for poor workmanship/materials etc to the new user. Yes, you could pass on the receipt etc but that doesn't alter the fact that Mountain Equipment won't stand by its errr..... equipment. Having a cursory look at other manufacturers in the same space shows how odd Mountain Equipments stance is on this i.e. no mentions of receipts, original purchaser etc.

You also mentioned a lifetime warranty but the fact is that there is no mention what so ever on Mountain Equipments website of a lifetime guarantee for ANYTHING other than sleeping bags.... I would thus suggest that it defaults to the legal minimum.

So to sum up I quote Mountain Equipments own website..... "The ME warranty is only applicable to the original purchaser with proof of receipt."

For a supposed top line manufacturer I find that completely unacceptable.

Anyway.

In reply to Indy:


Non-transferrable warranties are the norm in most consumer markets, I'd say.

In reply to captain paranoia:


I'd disagree. Any GENUINE quality manufacturer would stand by there product rather than try and weasel there way out it. If you'd bought a £500 jacket and decided that it wasn't for you and sold it to a mate for £450 after a week would you honestly say that it was fair enough if the manufacturer shrugged and said sorry the warranty is void a month later if due to poor workmanship the jacket started leaking?

In reply to Indy:

Disagree all you like, but the reality is that warranties are not generally transferrable; ME are certainly not unusual in this respect.

In reply to Indy:

There are some companies which transfer warranties, but most don't. It's not something one can disagree with to make it not true.

In reply to Indy:


I wasn't saying they would, I was pointing out most receipts don't have names on them, so how would they know you are not the original purchaser?


I was talking about Osprey Rucksacks.

In reply to Tony Jones:

ME have been pretty good when I've delt with them in the past - though after 2 years you might struggle to convince any manufacturer that wear in a high wear area is down to a defect rather than use. Very few jackets are designed to last more than a few years now, and the lighter the short the life. Its a strange one, virtually everyone I know would happily put up with a slightly heavier jacket, if it lasted and stayed waterproof, but we keep hearing from manufacturers that the consumer wants light weight above durability. I do wonder whether the market is making the "light weight" demand, or if the manufactures are.....

For what it's worth, I've a ME Ogre Jacket that's 4 years old now and have been used pretty extensively. I've not had the jacket wear through, though around the draw cord is definitely a wear point (visibly more worn there than elsewhere). To be honest, if it stopped working tomorrow I'd feel I'd got my money's worth out of it anyway.

Don't start bandying "not fit for purpose" or "inherent design flaw" around, there's no better way to guarantee that they won't replace or repair it FOC it as a good will measure. As it's a popular jacket that's been on the market for a good number of years both manufacture and retailer have plenty of backup that the problem is neither fitness for purpose nor inherent in the design. There's absolutely no way you'll get a retailer to state or agree that any product is not fit for purpose, that's sales training day 1.

It does sound like the retailer isn't interested rather than ME - the retailer will be dealing with chancers coming in all the time with tales of clothing / equipment falling to pieces the second it's out of the bag, even when it's clearly well used. Odds are they've not had much more than a cursory conversation with ME where they opinioned that it looked to them (the retailer) like wear and tear regardless of your story and ME will have agreed with their assessment. (In fairness 20 days in 2 years is very, very light use so they are probably suspicious of that low a number, true as it may be).

Hopefully you get more joy from ME directly!

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to Timmd:


Sorry we're not talking about 'companies' we're talking about Mountain Equipment and its peers. Could you point out any of Mountain Equipment's peers that wouldn't allow a second owner to claim on a warranty for poor workmanship/materials etc? Mountain Equipment appears to go out of its way to SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE it. I've been unable to find a single other manufacturer in the same sector that even mentions original owner/receipts let alone mentioning it multiple times. While I'm at it, Mountain Equipment is the only manufacturer in this sector that I can see that doesn't mention any warranty timescales. I've repeatedly seen "for the practical life time of the garment" on the websites of Mountain Equipments peers but diddly squat on ME's own site. Are we to believe that the warranty is the statutory legal minimum?

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:


What a sad indictment on a supposed quality manufacturer that customers are having to rely on subterfuge to get/claim warranty work done.

Yes, I was talking about Mountain Equipment and it's lack of "lifetime guarantee" come to think of it a lack of ANY stated timescale.

In reply to captain paranoia:


I note you didn't answer my question.... a £500 2 week old jacket that was sold on develops a fault due to poor workmanship do you agree that a company should be able to walk away saying tough? Its a simple Yes/No. You're answer is?

Yes there are many companies like Sports Direct that operate in the way you describe are you saying that Mountain Equipment is the same? Maybe you'd like to point out some of Mountain Equipment's peers that would walk away from a faulty garment because it was sold on? also what exactly happens when you sell a garment on that somehow makes the warranty invalid or is it as i suspect a weasly way for companies to walk away from there obligations?

Anyway enough on the subject.

In reply to Indy:


Rab?

http://rab.equipment/uk/customer-service/returns/

Under the section "warranty returns". Original purchaser, proof of purchase.

In reply to Indy:


My answer is yes: it's tough. Your contract under SoGA is not with ME; it is with the vendor. If you sell your jacket on to someone else, that contract becomes void. Caveat Emptor, and all that. That's one of the big reasons why second-hand prices are much lower than retail, even for items only a week old; you have no SoGA or warranty comeback in the event of a fault.

In reply to Indy:


MtnGeekUK has given you an example of a direct peer company with a similar policy.

Maybe you could provide us with an example of a peer company that provide a transferable warranty if you think it's an 'industry-standard' policy?

In reply to captain paranoia:

I agree with you that warranties are generally not transferable from what I've seen over the years from being a buyer.

From memory for stuff I've bought, Rab certainly, but also Berghaus, TNF, and Paramo either directly or indirectly using words like original buyer, original receipt, need for registration at time of purchase, etc.

In reply to Tony Jones:

thats a tricky one. It sucks that you have an expensive jacket that wore out so quickly. If the manufacturer and the retailer dont want to deal with you, you are kind of stuffed. The only thing that I can really recommend is dont buy such expensive gear next time. that way if you have to throw it away after a season or two its not so dear. probably not what you wanted to hear....

In response to the ever lighter argument, I would say you dont have to buy gear that is labelled for climbing. it seems like a lot of companies slap on a massive premium because something is rated for climbing or extreme sport, etc. Thats a bit stupid. Ive picked up a surfantic technical ski jacket from TKMAXX around 4 years ago for 40 quid and that thing is the clothing equivalent of a cockroach. Ive not been able to wear it out or tear it regardless of how much abuse I give it outdoors and on rock. If i'd bought it and it went after a year, good riddance, ill get another one. For things like that, have a look around and see what gives you the performance you want without the price tag. buy some gear with the money saved!

In reply to Tony Jones:

You are not receiving the service from the retailer that they are supposed to be giving you. If it is within two years and you bought it on your explore more card the shop can deal with it in-house and have no reason to contact the supplier.

I would recommend that you email the companies head office quoting the customer number on the back of your car and voice politely your dissatisfaction.

If you have the option take it to another store and see how differently they treat it, you're being proper fobbed off in terms of the service the shops are directed to give from head office..

I would however say from a personal point of view i'd probably just buy a new one. Two years use seems pretty fair to me.

In reply to Tony Jones:

just out of interest. is the jacket easily patch able? maybe less stress to remove for u pointless pull cord add some tenacious tape or. similar?

cotswold is a big chain and customer service is inevitably variable. I once had. a marmot gotetex which got a good hammering but also de laminated shop refused to send it marmot so I sent it myself. there were very pissed of with retailer but had. a look then sent it to gore who said sure fabric not quite right we'll go halfers on a replacement.

In reply to Indy:


What if the manufacturer is unable to replace the item? Does the "friend" who bought it for £450 get a £500 refund?

I think you'll find that a warranty is part of a contract, and once the warrantied item is sold on, the contract is null and void. Show me one company (as you put it a peer company) who outright say that a warranty is transferrable. I imagine most don't because for the vast majority of manufacturers it's obvious that it's not.

In reply to alasdair19:


If my quest to return the jacket proved unsuccessful I had intended to remove the drawcord (which I've never used) and maybe just run some aquasure (used for repairing neoprene) over the damaged area. I've used the stuff in the past to repair leaking gore tex fishing waders so I've no doubt it would do the job.


As an update to this, I have been in touch with ME and they have been they have been very helpful. The jacket will be returned for evaluation.

In reply to Tony Jones:

what branch of Cotswold are you (trying) to deal with?

In reply to Tony Jones:

An update on the jacket situation for any of you who have followed this thread from the beginning.

After the refusal of the store from where it was purchased to return the jacket to Mountain Equipment for evaluation, I returned it directly to ME following a telephone conversation and also contact via this forum.

I have today received a very generous offer of a replacement jacket from Mountain Equipment and I would like to publicly acknowledge the help and service I have had from them. A more than satisfactory outcome from my point of view.

First class service in all respects!